Time to stick my neck out ........ [Warning: politically adventurous viewpoint lurks within.]

[ricktas]

Ok Rick, you said "
I said some men are avoiding employing women to protect themselves from false accusations"
There implication here that women often make false accusations. Do you mean to say this? There is also an implied threat. Women had best not make accusations or men won't employ them. It also assumes that men will be doing the hiring - though this is usually true currently.

You are completely misrepresenting what I said. and you know it. Your entire reason for being in this thread is to stir it up. This will be the last time I reply to anything you post in this thread. I am not going to bother being baited for your small minded enjoyment.

One. I did not say often, again you add words to manipulate the conversation. The implication you refer to is in your head.. not my words! I said some men. I have seen it happen. I have watched a great small business disintegrate due to a female staff member making claims of inappropriate behaviour from the male owner. It was splashed in the papers, on the news. Yet once the police got involved, the staff member admitted she made it up, to get back at the male owner, because she wanted a pay rise of more than he was willing to give her. Was this admission ever in the news... nup? Meanwhile his clients abandoned him and his business folded. His other female staff member lost her job.

I have heard, but do not know the facts, around similar also. I have watched the above gentleman have his life destroyed and worked hard to rebuild it. He will not employ females in his new small business.

Yes, women have been inappropriately dealt with by Mr Weinstein, et al, but we are focusing on one side of this (inappropriate action by men towards women) when those men who are victims of women, are being ignored. There is this unwritten concept that inappropriate attention of men by women is just flirting, and that men are supposed to be flattered that a woman is showing some sexual interest in them. That if they told their mates, they response would be 'you lucky bugger'. etc. Yes we had a few men raise their voices about Kevin Spacey.. but again it is about men being inappropriate.

It has gotten to the point in most places that men will not comment on the appearance of a random woman, but if a 'hot' man walks into a cafe, the women will often comment, and this is still seen as OK. I have seen this, repeatedly... and it is still happens. Hot woman walks into a cafe and a male says 'nice boobs', what would be the reaction? Hot Man walks into a cafe and a female says 'nice arse'. The way this is dealt with is not equality.

Where is the equality in all this? Where is the #metoo campaign from the men? Women are portraying themselves as the victims, and I am not willing to believe every word posted in newspapers, on presented on the news. There is always a back-story that involves the information needed to form a good opinion, and the media denies the public that further detail all to often.

So Steve, stop with the manipulation of others posts, to bait people into responding to your manipulations. Write what you want about this reply, as I will be ignoring it. I am not playing your games.

[Glenda]

Well this definitely has been a mostly male driven thread. Well I'll join in and the main reason I'm late to the party is not because I was intimidated or read too many sexist comments, but because until this morning I didn't realise it even existed.

Firstly Bob's initial post.
I agree that this trial by media we see constantly is disturbing. Gone are the days where the media properly researched each story before publication. Now it is mostly sensationalism and the drive to get the story out (often without checking facts) before any competitor beats them to it. Yes, it can and does ruin reputations and if they get it wrong there is usually only a very small apology buried deep in the centre of the paper or down below the next lot of sensational stories on line. I also feel sorry for any male unjustly accused and will be interested to see what happens with both Geoffrey Rush and Craig Mclaughlin and their defamation suits. Alternatively, if the complaints are valid they deserve to have their reputations in shreds.

1. In relation to Robert Doyle - I heard he claims to have put his hand on the lady's thigh to attract her attention. Would he have done the same to a male sitting next to him? I doubt it. Yes, the media seems to have tried and convicted him and if enough mud is thrown, some will invariably stick. Also, like all of these type of cases, one complains and that leads to others coming out and reporting similar instances. Ideally they would have all complained at the time it occurred but I can also understand why some didn't feel comfortable doing so.

2. Definitely not. This is obviously a problem with our judicial system and it often seems that some judges/magistrates have a real disconnect to what the general public perceive as more serious crimes. I know they are restricted by law as to the sentences they can give for various offences, but I know I've often been horrified at very mild sentences given to serious assault charges and equally amazed at a severe sentence for a fraud case. There was a huge public outcry locally when a District Court judge gave a male, charged and convicted of molesting his eight year old stepdaughter, community service and an order to undergo counseling as, in the judge's words, the child was young enough to be able to forget and get over the incident. Unbelievable and to my knowledge that sentence remained as it was.

With regard to the doctor who received that 175 year sentence I'm assuming that was because of the number of victims, ie x number of victims multiplied by the maximum sentence = 175 years. I guess a serial murderer would be similar.

I joined the workforce in the late 60s and in those days there weren't the avenues for complaints against colleagues there are today. I've probably been lucky in that I never felt harassed - maybe the occasional inappropriate comment but I've never been shy about sticking up for myself and would have told them where to go. It's probably all about perception as well. I've heard women claim to be harassed walking past a construction site and hearing wolf whistles. That never bothered me - if it was accompanied by lewd comments it would have been totally different. I remember when my son was at uni doing his engineering degree, probably around 2012. They often had three campuses connected by video link for lectures. Apparently one day, while waiting for a lecturer somebody commented about a fellow student's large feet, saying "You know what they say about big feet" to which he replied "Yep, big shoes". A female student at another campus complained. Personally I wouldn't find that offensive or felt harassed but obviously she did.

Also as a female I've often found that what one male work colleague said or did, wouldn't offend me whilst another doing or saying the exact same thing would. Maybe that's difficult for males to understand. I remember discussing this with a guy I worked with once and saying about another guy in the office "it's not what he says, but the way he says it". He just didn't get it but he came back the next day and said he mentioned it to his wife who totally got it. If one guy came up and put his hand on my shoulder it wouldn't worry me but another, doing the same thing, could send shivers of revulsion down my spine.

I think sexual harassment in the workplace is a power thing and obviously, at present, it is mostly women who are the complainants. I wonder if, in the future, this could change as more women get into executive roles.

As a senior citizen, I'm way past the age where I think I'll suffer sexual harassment. My pet peeve is being addressed as love, dear or sweetheart by shop assistants. I'll have to look at complaining about that .

[bobt]

It has gotten to the point in most places that men will not comment on the appearance of a random woman, but if a 'hot' man walks into a cafe, the women will often comment, and this is still seen as OK. I have seen this, repeatedly... and it is still happens. Hot woman walks into a cafe and a male says 'nice boobs', what would be the reaction? Hot Man walks into a cafe and a female says 'nice arse'. The way this is dealt with is not equality.

There is a double standard in place here, and it does tend to be the "elephant in the room". Women have always been free to touch, flatter, comment and behave towards men in any way they like - and this is probably because mostly men like it, so that has to be factored in. The average male will feel flattered if a woman touches him or flirts with him and is likely to encourage it. Unfortunately, this does give rise to a different set of "rules" for the same sort of conduct. This double standard is (in my view) a predictable result of differing libidos given that men are generally more open to sexually oriented behavior than women are. The more radical feminists will say that men and women are equally sexually driven, but in my experience that's simply untrue. The net result is that there are different "rules of engagement", and men need to realise that and act accordingly. Women's blood flow tends to move more towards the brain, whereas men's blood flow tends to flow somewhat lower.

- - - Updated - - -

Well this definitely has been a mostly male driven thread. Well I'll join in and the main reason I'm late to the party is not because I was intimidated or read too many sexist comments, but because until this morning I didn't realise it even existed.

Also as a female I've often found that what one male work colleague said or did, wouldn't offend me whilst another doing or saying the exact same thing would. Maybe that's difficult for males to understand. I remember discussing this with a guy I worked with once and saying about another guy in the office "it's not what he says, but the way he says it". He just didn't get it but he came back the next day and said he mentioned it to his wife who totally got it. If one guy came up and put his hand on my shoulder it wouldn't worry me but another, doing the same thing, could send shivers of revulsion down my spine.

Firstly, it's great to finally have a female perspective - so thanks for that. You also raise another interesting aspect of the discussion, and that involves the way an action is perceived. I can fully understand why you would be receptive to certain actions from one person but not from another - that's perfectly normal. The extension of this is something that I think is both confusing and irritating to men.

Let's say a young woman goes out in public wearing an appealing outfit, low neckline and short skirt. That's entirely her prerogative, and her choice ... BUT ...... in doing so she cannot be selective as to who looks at her. If she passes two guys sitting on a bench, and one is an old fart like me, and the other a young handsome man of her own age, she cannot expect that we will both behave differently simply because only one of us is of any interest to her. You put up a public billboard and everyone is entitled to look at it. Yet so often in that situation the old guy will be labelled a "dirty old man" while the other might receive an appreciative smile. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and if those eyes are old and wrinkled it doesn't make him a pervert.

[Bear Dale]

---

if a 'hot' man walks into a cafe, the women will often comment

Yep, I get that all the time

[Ionica]

I feel that at times there is more than a double standard operating, and often from people claiming to promote " equality " .

Examples : our National broadcaster . http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-0...ns-day/8331758

: The cancellation of the showing of the film " Red Pill " , when a group of feminists protested the screening, and a petition supporting the screening ( with considerably more support ) was ignored.
.http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/progra...n-goal/7988850

: The small level of reporting of an open letter against the " Me Too " movement published in Le Monde.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42643504

An incident at a Canadian university, where " a small group of self-proclaimed feminists " stopped a lecture proceeding.

https://www.inquisitr.com/1219579/fe...ment-is-dying/

Bias in some media - http://www.fighting4fair.com/uncateg...nstream-media/

Sometimes it appears to me as more to do with power than equality.

[John King]

Thanks for those links. I have read them all.

One needs to ask oneself why the ABC is so horrified by the requirement for them to report in a "fair and balanced" manner, and have used "our" ABC to fight so hard against what seems to me to be a sine qua non of all reporting.

EDIT:

BTW, I would describe myself as basically a feminist.

Women are the fundamental design of humanity. A male is basically a Rolls Royce cut down to a work utility with an angle grinder and no rust proofing!

While we have evolved to fulfill differing roles in social groups, both are equally important, and both should have equality of opportunity, as far as this is possible.

There is no room in my world view for division, prejudice or outright hatred. We should all treat each other with courtesy, dignity and respect.

[ricktas]

Rose Mcgowan (No idea who she is personally) is back in the news regarding Mr Weinstein: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...cgowan-1083173

[Liney]

I've read through the rest of the thread with interest, but then as a fifty-something white heterosexual male I have come to realise recently that I am responsible for everything that has gone wrong in the world since world war II (but possibly earlier).

In my job I deal with facts, not feelings. I and many, if not most, of my colleagues work on a meritocracy standard, if you do the job right you get respect and deserve promotion. We don't care if you are male, female, or transgender, but if you do the job right then that's great.

When we were at school, how many of us got punished as a class due to a transgression by one or two individuals? You know the sort of thing, the teacher finds something broken or missing and the culprits don't get found out so there is a class punishment which makes those who were innocent feeling aggrieved.

That's how I feel sometimes when yet another personality blames every male under the sun for everything. Personally I would never make unwanted advances to a woman. I admit to flirting with the girls in the office (who in general are older than me) but it's banter, intended to make the work environment a happier and more relaxed place, and believe you me the girls in the office give as good as they get!

I do however despair at the way society is going in some cases. The media seems to be in an ever ending spiral to get the most sensational story first, but when you start looking into the facts you find that they just don't match the headlines. And of course to try and point out the facts which go against the feelings then you get shouted down as a nay-sayer or accused of being a fascist or nazi (don't try that in Germany, as some tourist did in Frankfurt airport security and got arrested).

I recommend both sides of the argument look at some of the you tube clips of a gentleman called Professor Jordan Peterson. In particular an interview he gave for Channel 4 in the UK. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54

Professor Peterson is a very intelligent and articulate man. He came to fame as it where when he protested against Canadian legislation which wanted to enforce the use of gender pronouns. Professor Peterson objected on the basis that no government should dictate the way people spoke, but this was taken as a protest against the topic itself. He argues that there is a difference between facts and feelings, and about the difference between equality of opportunities and equality of outcomes, and the first is good but the latter in unsustainable.

[ameerat42]

Gosh, Liney. I'm 1/10th of the way through that clip. It's clear that it's not only "young males" that could take note of his message,
but just about everyone!! Just a point about what you said in your post above: "...In my job I deal with facts, not feelings..."
If that were to be applied to life in general I reckon things would go awry*. A point that comes out of that interview so far is that it
is concerned with dealing with feelings. Ta for the interesting clip.

*Insofar as "feelings" are facts to be dealt with.

[MissionMan]

I think there are two sides to everything. As a father of 5 and 7 yr old girls and the husband to a working mum, I see first hand the extraordinary things they do and I am passionate about ensuring they have the exact same opportunities that their male counterparts do, but sadly this is not always the case.

We see many examples in the photographic industry of women being sidelined. I know of female photographers who have lost work because of their sex. I know of female photographers who are treated like novices when they are out taking photos because they are female, when they are very good photographers. We've seen Nikon dragged through the mud for picking only male representatives for the D850, and lets be realistic here, none of the other manufacturers are any better. Most of them have an ambassador ration of male to female at about 80/20 or less.

So, yes, women are STILL getting the raw end of the still...BUT...

There are also some extreme overreactions highlighted in this thread and in society as a whole. We've recently seen cases of guys taken up for sexual assault for trying to kiss a female they thought liked them. We're not talking bosses here and sexual harrassment, we're talking someone they know. Now, if someone grabs a woman's breast or worse, then take them up for assault, but when a guy gets mixed signals (and there are many women that flirt for the sake of flirting), we can't have the extreme situation where someone gets classed a sex offender for trying to kiss a lady. My question to these people is would they still class something as sexual assault if the guy who tried it under the exact same circumstances looked like brad pitt? probably not, so I don't believe that's sexual assault. Sometimes you will get unwanted advances from people who like you, that is society. If they force themselves on you, or grab parts of your anatomy they shouldn't, thats a different question, but part of the courting process for the last 100 years has been going in for the kiss and if the woman isn't keen, she turns away, the guy feels like an idiot and walks away with his tail between his legs. Yes, it may offend you if an ugly person hits on you, just as much as it may offend you to have a straight person hit on you if you are gay, or a gay person hit on you if you are straight, but its not illegal to be offended. If we continue this way, are we going to get to a point where you have to sign a contract with someone before you ask them on a date, or carry a contract with you just in case you find someone you like.

[bobt]

When we were at school, how many of us got punished as a class due to a transgression by one or two individuals? You know the sort of thing, the teacher finds something broken or missing and the culprits don't get found out so there is a class punishment which makes those who were innocent feeling aggrieved.

That's how I feel sometimes when yet another personality blames every male under the sun for everything. Personally I would never make unwanted advances to a woman. I admit to flirting with the girls in the office (who in general are older than me) but it's banter, intended to make the work environment a happier and more relaxed place, and believe you me the girls in the office give as good as they get!

I like the school analogy, which is of course quite true. However, a significant issue which is often ignored is that although society is gaining a lot in terms of respect for women, equality etc etc, it is also losing the essence of male/female relationships. Those relationships were never meant to be formulaic, over regulated or harder than they already are. Male/female relationship should be fun, awkward, embarrassing, exploratory, adventurous and enjoyable. We are heading down a path which makes them fraught with rules and regulations, open to gross misinterpretation and overly structured and without spontaneity. That's not a great outcome in my view. Sure we need to emphasise respect for one another, but do we really want to make the whole process of interaction such a minefield that our already nervous and inexperienced youngsters view the whole idea with trepidation? I would hate to be making my first venture into that world in this day and age. There are so many obstacles now that I would feel more like I was sitting an exam than trying to pursue a romance.

We also have differing role models, and live in a world where a man can be condemned for being a little over enthusiastic, but the President of the US can get away with serial offences against women. The responsibility for these changing attitudes is a complex issue, and there is fault on both sides of the gender divide. However, it is a two way street, and we do collectively need to negotiate a path which is neither too restrictive nor too one sided. If we don't, then we all lose.

[ameerat42]

It's a case of runaway semantics: "equality", even "equality of opportunity". It reduces to a populist meaning
of "equal" without any disrcrimination such as Bob mentions - of relationships. Deny any such and more and
unfamiliar problems come to the fore... - And then the polemic, the confusion, distrust... and inevitable lament
and misguided legislation - muchly* reactionary, which we pay lip-service to as "progress".
Act 2 (same as Act 1)

* Not "mostly", but (perhaps) much more than is good to have.

[Tannin]

Men are voting with their feet. Primary schools cannot get male teachers for love nor money. Today, just 10% of primary school teachers are male, and most of those are older ones who have been in the profession for years. Schools and education experts are united in saying that it is very important for young children to have both male and female teachers and role models, but almost all primary teachers are women. Young male graduates today are simply too frightened. They know it just takes one false accusation - one - to ruin their career and wreck their whole life. Even when the accusation is completely baseless, the man has no hope of leading a normal life afterwards, never mind career success.

Young men today believe that it is simply not worth the risk, not even if you offer them danger money. And they are right.

Result: there are no males willing to teach children anymore.

[Liney]

Primary schools cannot get male teachers for love nor money. Today, just 10% of primary school teachers are male, and most of those are older ones who have been in the profession for years. Schools and education experts are united in saying that it is very important for young children to have both male and female teachers and role models, but almost all primary teachers are women. Young male graduates today are simply too frightened. They know it just takes one false accusation - one - to ruin their career and wreck their whole life. Even when the accusation is completely baseless, the man has no hope of leading a normal life afterwards, never mind career success.

My eldest is a recently graduated teacher, still looking for that permanent position after having been interviewed for several. I know of at least one organisation where the recruiting guidelines state that if a female applicant is 80% of what they are looking for they should be hired before a male applicant who is 100% of what they are looking for. Being young, male and unemployed today is an unenviable position.

I mentioned Jordan Peterson in an earlier post. One of the items he mentions on a number of occasions is that genders will naturally graduate towards certain careers, regardless of "equality of opportunity". He often cites Norway as an example, there is a ratio of 8 women to 2 men in nursing, and 8 men to 2 women in engineering. Teaching should be one of those careers that attracts men and women equally, but society has skewed the expectations of men to such an extent that it is having a negative impact. Can you imagine the uproar if a man applied to be a kindergarten teacher? He would be assumed to be a pedophile as soon as he put in his application. Yet more women seem to be found guilty in the media of underage sex with pupils than men, so can women be pedophiles too?

[Ionica]

My eldest is a recently graduated teacher, still looking for that permanent position after having been interviewed for several. I know of at least one organisation where the recruiting guidelines state that if a female applicant is 80% of what they are looking for they should be hired before a male applicant who is 100% of what they are looking for. Being young, male and unemployed today is an unenviable position.

I mentioned Jordan Peterson in an earlier post. One of the items he mentions on a number of occasions is that genders will naturally graduate towards certain careers, regardless of "equality of opportunity". He often cites Norway as an example, there is a ratio of 8 women to 2 men in nursing, and 8 men to 2 women in engineering. Teaching should be one of those careers that attracts men and women equally, but society has skewed the expectations of men to such an extent that it is having a negative impact. Can you imagine the uproar if a man applied to be a kindergarten teacher? He would be assumed to be a pedophile as soon as he put in his application. Yet more women seem to be found guilty in the media of underage sex with pupils than men, so can women be pedophiles too?

Seems like institutionalised gender bias and discrimination, and no interest in equality.

[Liney]

Seems like institutionalised gender bias and discrimination, and no interest in equality.

Thanks for the response Ionica, but I'm a little confused. Can I ask you to expand on that please?

[Ionica]

Thanks for the response Ionica, but I'm a little confused. Can I ask you to expand on that please?

Employing a person based on gender, over someone who is more qualified/suitable.

" I know of at least one organisation where the recruiting guidelines state that if a female applicant is 80% of what they are looking for they should be hired before a male applicant who is 100% of what they are looking for. Being young, male and unemployed today is an unenviable position."

[Liney]

Ionica

Thanks for clarifying that. Yes it does sound a little that way, being someone who respects and appreciates someone who can do the job well regardless of gender it annoys me when this sort of topic is brought up. Many years ago in a land far away I had a similar situation where it almost seems we had quotas to meet in terms of the gender / race / background of people we employed. Some of them were very good and I was glad to work with them, some of them were just useless but the impression was they could not be moved on without causing a fuss.

[Mark L]

So, yes, women are STILL getting the raw end of the still...BUT...

BUT the rest of your post is generally not what happens.