CCing, Why is it when?

[Roosta]

Why is it when people ask for CC/Critque/feedback, and you give then some, they either,

No 1, Don't like your suggestion,

No 2, Get their back up, when you mention something.

Or,

No 3, Be very blunt/take it hard, when you offer your point of view on an image/picture they have presented for feedback.

No 4, Shit, sometimes they actually agree, Love it. (Good - Bad)

I ask you!!!

Isn't photographyart an individual form, is it not open to like/dislike - opinion?

Why bother saying, Here is my work, what do you think?? and not like all the responses from all, that;s the point of asking, is it not?

I, for one, love HONEST FEEDBACK, sure it might hurt if your best image sucks to others, but the truth should be told.

Isn't this how we improve, if the person with the feedback offers something constructive and maybe, (GOD FOR BID) something technical to better it/you ?

What do you think ????

[ricktas]

Facebook Factor :D

They are so used to seeing 'nice photo' that when someone is honest, then seeing everyone on facebook loves their work, then it must by you that is wrong.

[MarkChap]

With you 100%

I was recently approached by an acquaintance, who is new to photography, too new to be putting herself "out there" as a photographer, to critique some of her work.
First image I commented on, met with complete and unfaltering diss-agreeance with everything I had to say, and believe me the image was bad. Hence I have not offered anything further to this young girls development. Which is a shame, because she does show some signs of ability, but if she won't accept any feedback, when she asked for it, then why should I bother.

I love to get the good, bad and the ugly
I will generally take on board what is said, try and apply that to future work, doesn't mean that I necessarily like my image any less, I am just able to see the points presented by others.

[Xenedis]

I think I know which thread prompted you to start this one...

[Roosta]

Facebook Factor :D

They are so used to seeing 'nice photo' that when someone is honest, then seeing everyone on facebook loves their work, then it must by you that is wrong.

How True, It's a shame they can't see past the iPhone 4s (or insert Phone and type) Sh!T pic that they thinks it's it. Get real, Please. Oh, I love it. (I was so Pissed last Saturday night that I'm glad you took a pic so I can Remember it .. LOL

Thanks for decent sites like this one.

[Roosta]

With you 100%

I was recently approached by an acquaintance, who is new to photography, too new to be putting herself "out there" as a photographer, to critique some of her work.
First image I commented on, met with complete and unfaltering diss-agreeance with everything I had to say, and believe me the image was bad. Hence I have not offered anything further to this young girls development. Which is a shame, because she does show some signs of ability, but if she won't accept any feedback, when she asked for it, then why should I bother.

I love to get the good, bad and the ugly
I will generally take on board what is said, try and apply that to future work, doesn't mean that I necessarily like my image any less, I am just able to see the points presented by others.

Mate, all the way,

I took (KIWI's) hard comments the right way, when and still do ask for it, otherwise, how are we to learn/develop our said skills.

Richard and Darre (Sport Forum) offered me some hard, in your face CC, and I learn't so much from it. Thanks to them and so many others on this site, they've made me a better photographer.




Personal note ---- Now, just need to bet aycee and bloody mongo... LOL..

[MMF]

The facebook effect is right everyone is so used to hearing pleasant things they don't like the truth. The politically correct world means no one can say anything bad or its a huge scandal. The worst bit is people who post photos that you can see are bad and expect to hear good things. As someone who is learning i deiberately post photos that aren't quiet there so i can figure out what to do to fix them.

[Roosta]

I think I know which thread prompted you to start this one...

John,

Maybe, But seriously, If I don't like one of your shots for what ever reason/or love one of your shots for what ever reason. Please.

If I posted (and have done) a shot of a 'Bird' (or insert yours) that I thought was pretty good, and asked for quality feedback, (and got it, thankfully) and they thought it was SHIIEETTEE, How would we improve?

That's the point, is it not?

Mate, I've followed your work on this site, and always tried to be the most Honest I could be, you provide this site with some stunning images, and I always try to provide what floats my boat about it.

thanks,

[Roosta]

The facebook effect is right everyone is so used to hearing pleasant things they don't like the truth. The politically correct world means no one can say anything bad or its a huge scandal. The worst bit is people who post photos that you can see are bad and expect to hear good things. As someone who is learning i deiberately post photos that aren't quiet there so i can figure out what to do to fix them.

Love your work MMF, that's what we want to hear. This site, and the fab people on this site, will alwys help...

Enjoy,

[ricktas]

Try going on Facebook and giving even a hint of critique. I did recently, to someone who is on AP, to be met by a barrage of abuse from that person's friends. I just removed them as a FB friend, cause I really could not be bothered putting up with the crap.

[davsv1]

I find it just as annoying or maybe even more when you offer something of a critique or even just a comment and it goes unacknowledged completely. How hard is it to say thanks or just hit the "thanks for this post" button.
Ok, ignore me and I will ignore you too, easy done.

[Roosta]

I find it just as annoying or maybe even more when you offer something of a critique or even just a comment and it goes unacknowledged completely. How hard is it to say thanks or just hit the "thanks for this post" button.
Ok, ignore me and I will ignore you too, easy done.

That is a bug bear for sure.

I personally don't like the "Thanks" "Like" button and have voiced that. I would much prefer, as you, just a simple comment in return, as this is what the OP is looking for.

Thanks mate,

[Roosta]

Try going on Facebook and giving even a hint of critique. I did recently, to someone who is on AP, to be met by a barrage of abuse from that person's friends. I just removed them as a FB friend, cause I really could not be bothered putting up with the crap.

Too true,

But Rick, where they asking for CC?

[mini696]

I have a friend who is really new to photography, and I give my opinion on basic technique (straight horizions, not chopping off feet, focus, exposure etc), and even though he says thanks, I know he thinks I am just being a prick.

I find the people on this forum take critique on the chin a lot better than most.

When I give comment, I try to put forward the point "this is what I would have done", hopefully this gives them something to try above and beyone their normal style of editing.

[davsv1]

That is a bug bear for sure.

I personally don't like the "Thanks" "Like" button and have voiced that. I would much prefer, as you, just a simple comment in return, as this is what the OP is looking for.

Thanks mate,

I hope you don't mind the "thanks" button in this respect, i.e. acknowledgement of a post rather than critique:D

[flame70]

The facebook effect is right everyone is so used to hearing pleasant things they don't like the truth. The politically correct world means no one can say anything bad or its a huge scandal. The worst bit is people who post photos that you can see are bad and expect to hear good things. As someone who is learning i deiberately post photos that aren't quiet there so i can figure out what to do to fix them.
Slightly off thread but in the same vein when I was working at a theatre in the city this awful noise come from just outside my dressing room as i was warming up, I went out to see and hear a young actor practising one of my songs. I had to tell him to shut up as it was so bad that it threatened to put me off. He said what would i know- well i know you're tone deaf
and really that will never change i said. 2 weeks later watching TV and on he comes for a singing reality show- i nearly fell off my chair as the judges crucified him saying hasn't anyone told you you're tone deaf- no he says all my friends say i got what it takes....Really!!

[MMF]

I enjoy the feedback, not only on my photos but on all the others as well. I think this site is quickly improving my knowledge. All of you mods and experienced togs do a great job nudging us newbies in the right direction, unfortunately although you may lead a horse to water you can't make it drink. some people are just not going to drink.

I am more hesitant to give feedback myself as am not sure how the opinion of a beginner will be taken, sometimes i like things that may not be technically perfect.

PS-slightly off topic but please excuse my typos as due to an injury am lying accross the bed with the laptop on the floor typing.. not easy believe me. but a great oportunity to trawl through the forums and edit my photos

[ApolloLXII]

If people can't take honest criticism about their photos then they shouldn't post images in the first place. It's as simple as that. I'm interested in learning and I'll do very little of that if I thought there was nothing wrong with my photos. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
I've seen threads where it all goes pear shaped over posted comments about photos that the threadstarter doesn't agree with and I always wonder "Why the hell did you post your pics on a forum specifically designed for CC if you don't like what's being said?" If you don't want CC then post them in the "Not for CC" thread or in your gallery.
I quite agree with the "Facebook" factor as I experience it myself when I put images on FB for family and friends to see. They usually say "Great pics, nice photo etc." which is fine but their opinions count for very little seeing how they are not serious photographers. That is another primary reason why I participate on Ausphotography because I know that the views that I get about my photos come from those experienced in photography and it is those opinions that I value more. I think that that is another reason why people get upset when they don't get the CC they were expecting because they think they know enough about photography only to discover that, in reality, they don't know very much about it at all.

[Xenedis]

Maybe, But seriously, If I don't like one of your shots for what ever reason/or love one of your shots for what ever reason. Please.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I saw the thread and I saw the way the guy reacted.

[geoffsta]

I tend to write what I think is "Out of Place" with an image. I try to be truthful. Yes, sometimes it comes back and bites me on the Butt. I'm not going to delete my post, or change it, just to make them happy. But at least I'm honest.

[ricktas]

Too true,

But Rick, where they asking for CC?

It was actually just one photo that they manipulated several times, each with more 'effects'. I had commented how I 'liked' a couple of the versions, and when the one came up that I thought was over-cooked and commented with "I prefer the previous versions, this one is way over done"... I copped the wrath of the friends..hehe

So no, they did not ask for critique directly, but they happily accepted by favourable comments on the previous versions. All's fair in love, war and photography.

[ricktas]

He said what would i know- well i know you're tone deaf
and really that will never change i said. 2 weeks later watching TV and on he comes for a singing reality show- i nearly fell off my chair as the judges crucified him saying hasn't anyone told you you're tone deaf- no he says all my friends say i got what it takes....Really!!

Sounds like he needs a hearing check. Tone deaf and selectively deaf too! thanks for the story, it made me smile:D

[WhoDo]

I am more hesitant to give feedback myself as am not sure how the opinion of a beginner will be taken, sometimes i like things that may not be technically perfect.
Please don't be hesitant, MMF. It's only in technical areas where you may or may not have the right info. When it comes to what you like or don't like about an image, your opinion is 100% as good as the best 'tog on the site! It's YOUR opinion and worth every bit as much as mine, for example.

For me, I like to get opinions from others regardless of their experience level. I want my images to "strike a chord" in the viewer, regardless of what they may or may not know on a technical level. Sure it's great if a really experienced, quality 'tog likes my images but I don't take or post them only for the experienced, quality 'tog; I'm not one of them either!

Don't let your experience level stop you from having an opinion; just don't take it personally if it isn't shared. That's life. ;)

[LJG]

The trouble is many of us (me included) look at our images and can be quite blind to problems with them. We look at say gee, I'm happy with that, but really, it is just another happy snap that may have been better composed, shot from a different angle etc etc. If we get good critique that also offers us suggestions on what may have been better, it is gold. Just bagging an image without offering any explanation on how to improve it though just doesn't help the OP much.

[Kym]

It takes some guts to put up an image and get some decent CC, which is why we see a lot join AP then not stay. :rolleyes:
Those that do stay and take the CC on board (remembering CC maybe wrong, its just another opinion, but it helps your thinking) do improve their skills! :th3:

I'm off to do my first camera club judging at the end of the month, (I did the SAPF juding course late last year).
I'm expecting that about 1/2 the members of that club probably won't like my comment or score (normal)
- but club judging is anther form of CC and that's how we learn.

[Dylan & Marianne]

I hope the thread isn't referring to one of mine lol
anyway, with regard to CC and responses to CC you also need to consider that the person receiving the CC isn't always obliged to return your CC with 'thanks I like it'.
If they truly believe that you've interpreted something incorrectly or disagree with your opinion, then it's generating a discussion about that by disagreeing with your CC may in turn give you insight into why something was done. (likewise, stating that you agree with the CC can also be as helpful)

I remember one thread where you commented on a pano crop for an image which I disagreed with and stated the reasons why and posted a version you had suggested (and gerry's suggestions as well) I believe that that exercise opened my eyes a little whereas if I had just said thanks or clicked the thanks button, noone would have learned anything and those alternative versions would not have been viewed at all.

We say we're being honest with CC - but let's also be honest in our reply to the CC perhaps? If all we do is click thanks on CC, then the person giving the critique thinks they're always right which i think is strangely unilateral thinking as well.

[dbax]

unfortunately some people have difficulty distinguishing between a critique and criticism. While there can be positive criticism, today more and more people regard any criticism as negative. And are closed to any alternative views or opinions. Which isnt a good way to learn or expand your understanding of photography in this case.

[Shelley]

I agree Dylan and think it goes both ways. Sometimes people get upset when you question their cc, whereas often you are trying to understand where they come from. I will query cc or come back with a reason why I didn't do that etc., I think all is a part of the process of learning and hopefully improving.

In saying this I would like more cc on my bird shots as I am in the process of doing my website and submitting images in a national competition - and I want to know if something is not quite right. I also know I need to give more information with my images when posting and to do this I probably won't post as many as I have done in the past.

[mikew09]

I am with your roosta, I actually ask for Honest feedback in my sign block. Can't say I ahave ever been affended by critique and some have been harsh. Can't say I always agree with all cc comments of my photos either if I was to be honest. For me feed back is not always about how good a photo is technicially but it helps to educate the photographers eye I think. I have taken some photos that are good technically and I think the composure or subject or whatever is a cracka photo and then a majority may say it is well taken but a bit boring. That tells me I am not seeing the frame of the image well enough as a photographer.
CC has defiantely helped me improve my photographer and now I have won my first weekly comp.

So Yea, I wonder the same questions sometimes.

[harper]

i totally agree. sure someone might like some of my images but there critiques drive me to get better and therefore produce better images.

i joined this forum for that reason as there are a lot of more advanced photographers that will offer you advice.

and for me if someone likes my images thats just a bonus

[Kym]

Also: You lose tone of voice when posting or emailing...

Please use emoticons where needed, choose your words carefully, think before you post: "How will someone else interpret this?" :th3:

[Roosta]

Slightly off thread but in the same vein when I was working at a theatre in the city this awful noise come from just outside my dressing room as i was warming up, I went out to see and hear a young actor practising one of my songs. I had to tell him to shut up as it was so bad that it threatened to put me off. He said what would i know- well i know you're tone deaf
and really that will never change i said. 2 weeks later watching TV and on he comes for a singing reality show- i nearly fell off my chair as the judges crucified him saying hasn't anyone told you you're tone deaf- no he says all my friends say i got what it takes....Really!!

Awesome, The irony of it all.

[mini696]

I need C/C. How else will I learn.

I would rather someone tell me what they would like to see, how they would have edited it etc so I can try something new. Sometimes I need to be told more than once to "try infill flash" for example, because I forget. Photography isn't second nature to me... Yet.

I also learn what other people like. Afterall I wont be the one buying my photos, so even if I like it there may not be a market for my style.

@MMF I too am a photography noob, but I like to get feedback from everyone, from soccer mum's with a P&S to a Pro with 16 cameras around their necks. Again like my previous comment the people buying my shots are not likely to be pro photographers, so feedback from "the layman" is very valuable.

[Roosta]

I am more hesitant to give feedback myself as am not sure how the opinion of a beginner will be taken, sometimes i like things that may not be technically perfect

That's part of the bueaty in it, you can always just add what you like/dislike about the image, with out being overly or not so technical. It's always regarded as warm and fuzzy to get a pat on the back or have soem appreciation thrown your way..

Tuff break on the injury. (no pun intended)

[Roosta]

I'm not disagreeing with you. I saw the thread and I saw the way the guy reacted.

Sorry mate, wasn't meant to come across as disagreeing..

It's more in general across the site, not so just that one post, but, yeap, that was the katalyst for this little diddy starting.

Apollo made a great point re CCing, if you think your image may attrack some feedback you wish it not get, put it under the 'Not for Critque' section if your (Not you John ((Generalising))) worried. Thats what it's there for.

Cheers mate,

[Roosta]

I tend to write what I think is "Out of Place" with an image. I try to be truthful. Yes, sometimes it comes back and bites me on the Butt. I'm not going to delete my post, or change it, just to make them happy. But at least I'm honest.

Too true mate..

[Roosta]

It takes some guts to put up an image and get some decent CC, which is why we see a lot join AP then not stay. :rolleyes:
Those that do stay and take the CC on board (remembering CC maybe wrong, its just another opinion, but it helps your thinking) do improve their skills! :th3:

I'm off to do my first camera club judging at the end of the month, (I did the SAPF juding course late last year).
I'm expecting that about 1/2 the members of that club probably won't like my comment or score (normal)
- but club judging is anther form of CC and that's how we learn.

Bullet or Knife proof vest may be in order there mate, good luck with that. But in fairness to the judges, it's all down to taking in the opinion on the image/technique/enter what you like here, and working with it or moving on, not liking or taking it on baord. That's the battle the judge has to put forward, doesn't and I'm sure not always appreciated by the supplier of the image. But hay, that's life. Still, better you Kym, than me. LOL


I hope the thread isn't referring to one of mine lol
anyway, with regard to CC and responses to CC you also need to consider that the person receiving the CC isn't always obliged to return your CC with 'thanks I like it'.
If they truly believe that you've interpreted something incorrectly or disagree with your opinion, then it's generating a discussion about that by disagreeing with your CC may in turn give you insight into why something was done. (likewise, stating that you agree with the CC can also be as helpful)

I remember one thread where you commented on a pano crop for an image which I disagreed with and stated the reasons why and posted a version you had suggested (and gerry's suggestions as well) I believe that that exercise opened my eyes a little whereas if I had just said thanks or clicked the thanks button, noone would have learned anything and those alternative versions would not have been viewed at all.

We say we're being honest with CC - but let's also be honest in our reply to the CC perhaps? If all we do is click thanks on CC, then the person giving the critique thinks they're always right which i think is strangely unilateral thinking as well.

Your in the clear mate, and as always very well put.

Thanks for the feedback.

Like Button x 1 tick for me (blast the button)

[Roosta]

I am with your roosta, I actually ask for Honest feedback in my sign block. Can't say I ahave ever been affended by critique and some have been harsh. Can't say I always agree with all cc comments of my photos either if I was to be honest. For me feed back is not always about how good a photo is technicially but it helps to educate the photographers eye I think. I have taken some photos that are good technically and I think the composure or subject or whatever is a cracka photo and then a majority may say it is well taken but a bit boring. That tells me I am not seeing the frame of the image well enough as a photographer.
CC has defiantely helped me improve my photographer and now I have won my first weekly comp.

So Yea, I wonder the same questions sometimes.

Thanks Mike, and well done on the comp win, maybe some of the Honest feedback contributed toward the win.

This seems to be a factor of photography, everybody has their point of view, but just getting it out of them ?

Cheers mate

[geoffsta]

The difference between being judged at the club level is that your image is generally judged by one person. One of the members on here got totally canned at her local club. That very same image won her category with the National APS. Who is right, and who is wrong? Everyone has an opinion. And all opinions should be taken on board, whether they are right or wrong. It's better to impress most of the people. Not just the few.

That is why I love this site. I'm judged by many of my peers. And I'd rather get a kick in the guts, than a pat on the back when I upload an image for CC that is not up to scratch. How else am I to learn.....

[Xenedis]

The difference between being judged at the club level is that your image is generally judged by one person. One of the members on here got totally canned at her local club. That very same image won her category with the National APS.

A friend of mine had an image totally overlooked at the camera club level (and one which is known for very tough competition), but won Nationals.

Go figure.

Judges are just people (who have biases), and their judgements are just opinions.

As photographers, we can either choose to accept those judgements, or reject them.

[Bax]

Some feedback that I've had in the past I haven't always agreed with. It is always an opinion, and not all opinions given are worth taking on board.

I always consider feedback when heard, but it's always up to the individual as to whether or not they decide to listen, and that right there is the beauty of opinions.

[MattNQ]

That's part of the beauty in it, you can always just add what you like/dislike about the image, with out being overly or not so technical.

I second that.
I look for both types of feedback -
1. Advice on my technical errors (eg. oversharp, overexposed, white balance off, unsuitable DOF etc)
2. Whether people hate it or like it as an image...but I need to know why. (eg. subject boring as batpoo, don't like the colours, love the textures ...etc)

[Roosta]

Also: You lose tone of voice when posting or emailing...

Please use emoticons where needed, choose your words carefully, think before you post: "How will someone else interpret this?" :th3:

Good reminder Kym:), I can say that I've been guilty of this :Doh:, it easy with out the face valve for reaction, sometimes to easy. :eek:

very good point. :th3:

[mini696]

I know what you mean about judges. I remember a recent art competition locally that was won by a shopping trolley filled with plastic bottles painted white. Seriously what? Worse was the cast net covered with those plastic fish soy bottles for sushi. No! Just, no.

[Roosta]

I know what you mean about judges. I remember a recent art competition locally that was won by a shopping trolley filled with plastic bottles painted white. Seriously what? Worse was the cast net covered with those plastic fish soy bottles for sushi. No! Just, no.

Sounds so much like the worlds most expensive photgraphy. That was a good topic of discussion here earlier.

But so true with regard to art. One of the winning piece's in the Perth Art expo held on Cott Beach last year, was a collection of old cheap pedestal fans, base and motor removed, bunged in the sand and the fan blades painted different colour!