Keep teaching myself and practising OR do a Degree/Diploma in Photography?

[Crystaljayne]

Hi Guys:)

I am chasing some advice. Who of you have done a photography course or studied at university, and if you did what course did you do?

I 'm not sure if I should keep learning off you guys or if I should go out and get the piece of paper to hang on my wall, mostly so if and when I decide to do paid work people have the confidence that they can put trust in the fact I am qualified in what I am doing..

I would love to make a career out of it so any advice would be appreciated!

[MarkChap]

Sounds mean, I guess, but a "piece of paper to hang on the wall" a good photographer does not make.

And you won't learn much from us either f you don't post up your work so we can give you some feedback, you have been a member for nearly 12 months now and we haven't seen any of your work yet.

None of the photographers that I look up to have any formal qualification, except that one from the school of hard knocks

[ricktas]

You talk about learning off us, but since you joined, 11 months ago, we have not seen a single photo of yours up for critique. If you want to learn, put your work out there and let people guide you.

[Wayne]

You will learn as much if not more here for free, nothing more than your time. Mark is right, the piece of paper may as well be toilet paper, it means you completed a course, not that you are a good photographer.

[Crystaljayne]

Thank you for your input. That is exactly the what I needed to hear. I'll be sure to become more involved from today.

[Wayne]

I will be in Mackay regularly for a day here and there starting next week, if you want to catch up, play with some Nikon gear etc send me a PM and I will bring some gear along.

[ricktas]

As for courses.

If you are going to do a diploma course, do an accredited and recognised one. Many (the Photography Institute for example) offer diploma courses that are not a recognised qualification. Basically they make their own course up, print their own diploma, but it is not from a Registered Training Organisation (RTO). The result is a diploma that is about as useful (employment wise) as buying a degree from some Nigerian University off the net.

If you wish to do a course, look at a recognised photographic diploma, probably the best one is : Diploma of Photo-imaging (CUV50407) : which gives you a nationally recognised Diploma from an RTO, that actually means you have reached a specific level of study and should be competent at doing what the diploma is issued for, and it can be used for employment purposes etc. This diploma will have printed on it, that it is a national recognised qualification, and detail the RTO's registration number, etc

If you want to focus on the Genre that interest you, then look at photography workshops instead of courses. Workshops usually are single day, or weekend and focus on a particular genre. Landscapes, weddings, studio etc. They tend to be more hands-on, get in and do it, and we will tell you settings, explain the why's etc as you enjoy the day or weekend.

Sadly, there are now a lot of non-registered training businesses set-up, and they offer courses that seem to be about getting a real diploma, when they are not. My personal thoughts are that these businesses should have to state in all communication (their website, any letters, and all documentation) that they are NOT a registered training authority and that any qualification received does not necessarily meet the Australian education standards for a diploma, etc.

Workshops, are often run by professional photographers, or others, to focus on one genre, or one particular aspect of photography (lighting workshop for example). These workshops are not run by RTO's but ultimately you get a good knowledge of the particular workshop topic, and there are probably more practical for most photographers, as they are hands-on and get you taking photos, not writing essays on the why's and how's of a grey scale chart, or the variations in kelvin values. (which are good to have a knowledge of, but don't make you a good photographer..taking photos and practice does that).

[arthurking83]

If it were me in this situation, I'd be spending my time/money on a course that really matters.

Something like graphic design, where you learn to become more proficient with software like Adobe's CS, or even a (short)business course where you become better acquainted with learning how to manage the finances of the business itself.

Photography is best learned in a more practical manner where you simply go out and practise lots, and lots.

As already said, post up images for CC. Not that our opinions really matter as much as those of the prospective clients, but having other opinions on how to better capture an image can help you understand what it is that you want.

Once you know what it is that you want, how to achieve it and how to present it, then you're in a better position to sell yourself, and your product, to your customers.

[kiwi]

pretty good point there ak

seems to me a lot of people that post this sort of question just simply dont take enough photos and learn the hard way

[KeeFy]

"Forget about the profession of being a photographer. First be a photographer and maybe the profession will come after. Don’t be in a rush to pay your rent with your camera. Jimi Hendrix didn’t decide on the career of professional musician before he learned to play guitar. No, he loved music and created something beautiful and that THEN became a profession. Larry Towell, for instance, was not a “professional” photographer until he was already a “famous” photographer. Make the pictures you feel compelled to make and perhaps that will lead to a career. But if you try to make the career first, you will just make sh*tty pictures that you don’t care about." - Christopher Anderson

[sonickel77]

I'd say a course is only useful if it teaches you stuff you'd take years to find out on your own.
I'm doing a Cert IV in Photoimaging, one subject at a time, and I think it's helping me evolve as a photographer quicker than if I was trying to teach myself.

[mcmahong]

A couple of years ago, I took an uninformed leap into an online photography course (I won't say which one, but I got there from clicking on an advertisement in Facebook). It was an Australian course and run by a well-known photographer, so it seemed promising. I found it very interesting with some worthwhile exercises that doubled up as assignments. I learned a fair bit of theory. However the level of critique in the assessment of those assignments was very lenient and dead-easy to pass. One of them, I barely even made an effort, and still got top marks.

Although they have a dedicated Facebook community of students, advertise one-on-one assistance from tutors, which is true, the problem was the lack of human interaction and that 'hands-on' experience.

After completing the 1-year course online, and nailing the assignments, I can't really say that I am that much of a better photographer for it. Sure, I learned a few important and useful tricks, but probably nothing I wouldn't have picked up from one day in a studio with real people.

If I had my time again, I'd follow Rick's suggestions here and do a series of workshops that suit your particular need, or do your homework on courses that are very interactive and challenging. The theory is really for interest, but the practical knowledge you'll gain from solid practice and being amongst people (workshops, get-together groups, working for other professionals) is a million times more beneficial.

[SirLozalot]

I agree with workshop philosophy. I have done a couple of workshops. Good for learning, filling in the gaps, and seeing what is possible but there is no escaping need to get out there and take lots and lots of photos on own.

[Seabee]

I found "Google" to be my best teacher........I absorb as much as I can from as many sources as I can. Magazines, E-books, Forums, other Photographers etc.
I find a photo that I like and I research on how it was done, then I practice, practice, practice.
I continue this process with every aspect of my Photography and Photoshop. It is easy to get swamped with information...so I find it best to accept that it all takes time.
I started with a Fujipix 5500 in 2004......I then upgraded to an Olympus e-500 in 2006......and then an E-30 in 2010. This year I delved into the Canon pool and got the 7D, but I have never taken a course of any sort.............I thought about joining a Local Camera Club but my work hours don't permit much of a social life.
So I have had to go it alone and hence I am a student of the 'Google Online Academy' lol

Honestly..........ALL the information is out there and you will find that there are thousand of resources.
This place is the best start...............I learnt sooooo much from being in a Forum just like this.
Don't do Photography to make money..................BAD START!!

Do it because you love it, you are passionate about it and when you find that you see the world through a viewfinder...and you are more passionate about learning than making money, then your rewards may come.

[JM Tran]

My only advice is to go out and practice Creativity on your own, its something you cannot learn from workshops or diplomas etc. If you have a creative streak which you might not know about - its best to nurture that and express it individually rather than learning through someone else's teachings.

[William W]

I would love to make a career out of it so any advice would be appreciated!


Out of what, specifically? "Photography" is a broad brush.


It is no burden to have recognised qualifications: and it is often an advantage.
There are obvious advantages of structured learning.

As an example: if you want to set up a W&P Businesses, then there is no law which requires any Formal or Recognised Qualifications and many successful W&P Photographers have none.

On the other hand: Still, Cine, Broadcast, Television Formal Qualifications could make an easier road for you at Fox Studios or at large production houses, overseas.

The bottom line is to evaluate the value to you to attain your goals against the input of both your time and money.

No one method of learning is ever enough. And "learning" is NOT learning, without involvement.

Mine or other’s qualifications are mostly irrelevant to your position, until you define your position more accurately and then I suggest seeking specific advice from people versed in those defined areas of interest, to you.


WW

[William W]

Developing Creativity is by NO means a solo enterprise.
Creativity has been for years: nurtured, cultivated and has blossomed by Tutelage, Mentorship and Apprenticeship.

Mozart, Beethoven, Dali, Henson, Riefenstahl, Newton, . . .(insert long list of those at the pointy end of the phalanxes of decisive CREATIVE breakthroughs), all studied formally; were mentored or apprenticed; and they also taught others.

WW

[FinancialWar]

You will learn as much if not more here for free, nothing more than your time. Mark is right, the piece of paper may as well be toilet paper, it means you completed a course, not that you are a good photographer.

it's not what you know, it's what you can prove what you know. This is how the world works.

Having a qualification but being mediocre at something is better than being good at something without qualification.

[Kaktus]

....Having a qualification but being mediocre at something is better than being good at something without qualification.

Wow ... Really ???

[ricktas]

Having a qualification but being mediocre at something is better than being good at something without qualification.

Disagree. The great masters of Art, did not have diplomas or degrees when they painted the Mona Lisa, Sistine Chapel, Monet's garden. Ansell Adams and the other great photographers were self taught, not a degree to be seen.

Yes in some fields (medicine etc) a degree is important, but in ART, it is not.

[I @ M]

Wow ... Really ???

I'm with you Kaktus, but seeing as warakawa posted it in the early hours of the morning I reckon they were a little tired and managed to get it round the wrong way. :rolleyes:

Well, hopefully that is the case. :D

[Kym]

it's not what you know, it's what you can prove what you know. This is how the world works.
Having a qualification but being mediocre at something is better than being good at something without qualification.

I call total 100% BS on that!

A degree or qual might get you into a graduate/trainee job, but after a year or two its all about experience.
I'm in a senior IT role and I can tell you my qualifications mean zero, zip, nada!
What got me my job was my previous demonstrated experience, not all the certificates I have.
Further, I know a couple of PHDs that I would never employ, they don't cut it in the real commercial world and are relegated to academia.

With photography its the portfolio and customer references.
You are right in saying "it's what you can prove what you know" in that you need a great portfolio to sell yourself as a photographer.

I know some highly awarded and qualified photographers, some are members of AP, my respect for them is in their work, not the letters after their name.

Edit:
I'm not saying study is not useful, in fact I do courses all the time,
but they are for my benefit to learn some new product or skill, which I then need to apply in real life.
The application is what others see, the certificate is pointless unless it's some sort of required OH&S cert.

[William W]

. . . also , the fact of attaining a degree, (in Medicine as an example) does NOT necessarily make one a good doctor.

WW

[SimonG]

I've done a few online courses through Lynda.com, there's also Kelby training and creativelive amongst others. I learnt a lot through them, much more than I could have through self-teaching or reading forums. These were more about post-production though.

I do think there's value in being able to say you've got a qualification. It does depend on the job though. Remember that you're not selling yourself to the other photographers who frequent these forums. Just because people here say 'qualifications are not as important as experience', if you knocked on someone's door and asked to take their family portrait for $200 the first question they will ask is what experience AND training you've had. If you show up to a newspaper asking to be assigned editorial work, they will ask you what experence AND training you've had. Perhaps portfolios speak more loudly than training, but I remember when we were hiring our wedding photographer my wife always asked what training they had completed - it was important to her as a customer.

I agree that you could probably learn most of the creative aspects yourself, but as a tangible thing to offer a potential client, the fact that you are trained might go in favour.

[Kym]

Yes in some fields (medicine etc) a degree is important, but in ART, it is not.

Only as a baseline. Dr Jayant Patel (Doctor Death) anyone? He had degrees, including a Master in Surgery!

[junqbox]

Couple of points here-
Everyone learns differently, some people through reading books, others watching, others doing.

Agree with comments above, regarding courses for better understanding of software app's. OR
Depending upon your interests, you may want to consider a Fine Arts degree, where photography might be a component of the course, but is more focused on helping you develop your creative thinking, rather than the technical in's and out's of photography/cameras, OR
as also mentioned above, an accredited course, which potentially may put you in contact with more experienced people in the industry for you to learn and work with.

Ultimately, you need to decide what outcomes you're looking for.

[Kym]

if you knocked on someone's door and asked to take their family portrait for $200 the first question they will ask is what experience AND training you've had

I would be asking to see their portfolio and ask for references, way ahead of qualifications.

[Allie]

If your intended career means you are applying for a job where there will be a large number of applicants you are more likely to get an interview with that piece of paper than without especially as part of many "art" courses you develop a portfolio of a wide range of work to back up your experience plus gaining a certain amount of business knowledge. It is up to the individual's talent as to how good that work is but I highly doubt you would get to interview stage without some form of qualification.

Working for yourself it is a different matter and a different skill set is required - untrained but highly talented and innovative artists may become successful (whatever that means) usually only by employing some skill in self promotion (or an agent to do that for them) plus a very good advertisement and or website - knocking on household doors of potential clients is a fairly antiquated version of seeking employment in the art field.

The times of independent wealth, benefactors/patrons, or artist apprenticeship/mentors are also few and out of most people's reach these days but that was how many of the Art Masters achieved their fame even if not their abilities and many did attend some form or schooling in art - even Ansel Adams had family money, tutors and acquaintances in artistic endeavours to foster his interests. Not many people achieve the "master" level in any field but to support yourself in the artistic field that piece of paper does provide a quicker foot in the door and knowledge on how and why to apply skills learnt. The rest is up to the individual.

[pixy]

Running a small business and hiring people my first question was how much experience do you have, the second was do you have any certificates to cover OH&S requirements,if they had too many other`s it was a negative.

There are people with a folder full of certificates in one case nine but could not do the work to an industry acceptable standard despite these certificates coming from government approved course's.

The best people had the minimum certificates to cover the type of work they were after,the cream obtained certificates after gaining the practical experience.

[Dylan & Marianne]

Having a qualification but being mediocre at something is better than being good at something without qualification.

That really depends on what your desired result is.

If you really want to improve your SKILLS as a photographer, then I reckon practice and putting yourself up for critique is far more valuable than the piece of paper

If you want to SELL yourself as a photographer then even a degree might not be necessary but might give you some credibility - probably better to take a course in marketing rather than photography because THAT is how the world works in my view.

[kiwi]

What's wrong with both ? It's not an either or proposition. Get formal quals and teach yourself !!!

[Longshots]

FWIW, I have no "educational approved qualifications", but plenty of accreditation. 38 years of selling my work, with 24 relying on photography as my sole income, seems to me to be the proof of the pudding. I know of many colleagues who are successful, been around for many moons, and also don't have any qualifications. My guess is that the comment from Financial War comes from someone who has little actual experience about the subject that they are keen to offer an opinion on. Which seems to illogical, why do that ?

The only time I've needed a degree or qualification is to engage in teaching the approved educational organisations/environment.

[Kerrie]

I think this depends on ones capacity to learn and the rate information is taken in.

Some need structured teaching, others just soak it all up.


Which are you?


Either way you can stay here and still contribute, even if you learn elsewhere too

For perspective....I could critique a so called experts photo if it wasn't very good just from what I've learnt here about taking good photos...so even if he had qualifications, he still needs to be a good photographer.

Not all good photographers have formal teaching.



Hope that helped

[William W]

Remember that you're not selling yourself to the other photographers who frequent these forums. Just because people here say 'qualifications are not as important as experience', if you knocked on someone's door and asked to take their family portrait for $200 the first question they will ask is what experience AND training you've had. If you show up to a newspaper asking to be assigned editorial work, they will ask you what experence AND training you've had. Perhaps portfolios speak more loudly than training, but I remember when we were hiring our wedding photographer my wife always asked what training they had completed - it was important to her as a customer.


I agree – that’s a very good general point – that Customers will vary in what appeals to them as important.

WW

[zollo]

The great masters of Art, did not have diplomas or degrees when they painted the Mona Lisa, Sistine Chapel, Monet's garden. Ansell Adams and the other great photographers were self taught, not a degree to be seen.

Yes in some fields (medicine etc) a degree is important, but in ART, it is not.

A few points from Wiki sticking with Ansel Adams as he is most relevant to photography. He associated and learnt from many other artists and photographers, see Wiki extracts below


In New Mexico, he was introduced to notables from Stieglitz's circle, including painter Georgia O'Keeffe, artist John Marin, and photographer Paul Strand, all of whom created famous works during their stays in the Southwest. Adams's talkative, high-spirited nature combined with his excellent piano playing made him a hit within his enlarging circle of elite artist friends.[32] Strand especially proved influential, sharing secrets of his technique with Adams, and finally convincing Adams to pursue photography with all his talent and energy. One of Strand's suggestions which Adams immediately adopted was to use glossy paper rather than matte to intensify tonal values

and


he joined the prestigious Roxburghe Club, an association devoted to fine printing and high standards in book arts. He learned much about printing techniques, inks, design, and layout which he later applied to other projects.

He clearly was not all "self taught" and nor was he against education within photography, see below


He also taught photography by giving workshops in Detroit and his pupils included future photographer Todd Webb.[41] Adams also began his first serious stint of teaching in 1941 at the Art Center School of Los Angeles, which included the training of military photographers

Looks to me like Adams did not have a problem with learning and with students wanting to be taught in a formal fashion.


Ansell Adams and the other great photographers were self taught, not a degree to be seen

Really? Adams received a Doctor of Arts from both Harvard and Yale universities. He was elected a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 1966

[CHardy]

I also thought I had to complete an expensive course or get a Degree / Diploma to be called a photographer ( even just an amateur one)...once I realised I couldnt afford most of them, I have subscribed to 2 Australian photography magazines, one has online tutorials backed up with the article in the current issue ( not sure if I am allowed to name them here). I have also booked into two workshops, one was a beginner masterclass ( run by an AIPP grandmaster), and I learnt so much..the second one is a night shoot by the same people to be held mid February in Toowoomba.

Sometimes I feel like I am overdosing on information and nothing seems to sink in, then I take a break, pick it up a few weeks later and Im back on track. One thing I was told ...if you dont have the "eye" for photography, it doesnt matter how many courses you do, you wont be a photographer.
I will continue to do workshops, read my magazines, and look at others images and learn from their techniques with the hope to evolve my own (amateur) photos.
Once I took the pressure off myself regarding the piece of paper to prove myself, I feel a lot better and more relaxed with my photography.

[Kym]

Photography is about doing. No theory can replace that.
Theory helps understanding, but nothing beats squeezing the shutter release and processing that image!
The next best thing is to get feedback, which is what AP is about.
Above all it must be fun!

[srowlandson]

Photography is about doing. No theory can replace that.
Theory helps understanding, but nothing beats squeezing the shutter release and processing that image!
The next best thing is to get feedback, which is what AP is about.
Above all it must be fun!

I agree, Can't remember if it was last weeks, or the week befores The Grid Live that hada great analogy.

Michael Jordan didn't become a god in the basketball world by shooting hoops once a fortnight. He did it for hours each day, and got advice on his style and tips from 'coaches'


Shoot lots, at least daily, and get advice from others, you'll soon become a pro.:th3:

[photomike666]

A photography course can teach you some basic fundamentals, plus it forces you to take on picture assignments you would not normally do. I have done two courses at college & university. But, I was a published photographer before both.

Push yourself creatively, try and find exciting composition in mundane surroundings and get the best image in the camera, don't rely on photoshop to make ok images good.

Also, expect photography to become mundane in the workplace. When you turn your hobby into a job, it comes with the same rigors of going to work. Your hobby will never be the same again.

When you think your work is good enough, don't just give up your day job. Send images to a photo agency, if they sell, you will know you have a marketable product.

Three final tips...
enter every Challenge and competition here, force your self to take images as if they were for a client and take note of feed back.

Join a photography club and socialize with other photographers. Show your work as above.

Get a weekend job as a photographers assistant and learn everything you can from someone who is already making money with a camera.

Good luck

[Cheryl A]

I'm so glad I got on to this thread as I had been contemplating doing a Diploma Course this year. A series of things have happened since before Xmas that have meant my time for photography, and here on AP, has been severely limited, and that's besides my camera being back in for Warranty repairs for a couple of weeks - for the third time in 12 months. Reading some posts here, especially from William and Rick, has convinced me that the best way for me to learn and grow as a photographer is just get out there and do it. Save the money that a course would cost and just do workshops and get together with other photographer buddies for day trips. I know I'll learn from my mistakes and practice makes perfect, or so they say. If you never push yourself, you'll never know how good you could be. Thanks to everyone's thoughts - very constructive and informative :)

[ricktas]

Really? Adams received a Doctor of Arts from both Harvard and Yale universities. He was elected a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 1966

Umm, perhaps look into this a bit further, these where honorary degrees, given to him AFTER his work became world renown. His degrees did not make him a better photographer, they were awarded because he was a great photographer.

[aussie girl]

Totally agree Rick. A piece of paper does not mean that your work is brilliant. Look at today's society, you need a certificate for EVERYTHING!!!! Hubby recently went to a day course to obtain his White Card (used on building sites) as he thought it might increase his chances of finding work. The course was basically foolproof. He passed his no worries, but there were other younger blokes that didnt get it quite right. No problem, they were taken through the bits they got wrong and then tested again (basically almost telling them the answers they needed) and of course EVENTUALLY they passed. Now that doesn't mean that they are safe on a building site does it?? Experience is the only way you will be able to live and breathe safety and have it become a second nature. I worked previously in a large factory with forklifts and material handlers' buggies darting about everywhere. You had to keep your wits about you or it was extremely easy to forget to look as you walked over the production lines and into an aisleway. No amount of "classroom" study will teach you forklift awareness.
In my current job, in a much smaller warehouse, I alway look at the fork driver and make sure I have made eye contact with him before I move towards him, and I always call out to him if I am intending to walk behind the forklift when he is on it. Other workers who have never worked in a real factory have no idea. They walk out from aisles, move behind the driver whilst he is getting loads down, really dumb stuff with no awareness of their surroundings and what is going on around them. So a piece of paper would be of absolutely no use to these people.
Same with photography I feel. Just because I can pick up a camera and push the shutter button, and just because I did some course by someone who supposedly "knew" all about photography does not mean I can frame up a shot, get the settings right and make the photo look awesome!!! It will only be when I can get the time I need to get out there, snap away, experiment, (delete a lot of duds) and learn how to navigate my camera that I will have any chance of producing anything worth bragging about!!!
At least it no longer costs me a fortune in wasted developing costs:D

[William W]

There is often a lot of heat from both sides of the fence.
Those who have formal qualifications and those who do not and both wishing to prove points; or to satisfy their own position.
It is sometimes very difficult to remain subjective, when addressing this topic.

Ansel was awarded honorific and accredited, because of his perception and also his talent and ALSO many other factors.
Certainly, the fact he was awarded and accredited did not make him greater in Craft and the Art – but it recognized both: formally and also . . . with grace – something oft lacking today.

In any case, the OP has been silent for many days: and it appears this is chat amongst ourselves, for the time being.

The question would certainly be more focussed, if the answer to:
“What part of Photography does the OP wish to make a go of it?”, were to be answered.

WW

[pobblebonk]

I know this is an old message (thread?) but I just want to put my 2 cents worth in... I am three weeks in on a 2 year Diploma of Photoimaging at TAFE, and I can already see its going to be very useful. All the tutors are working pros, and the advice and experience can only help. There is a Traditions subject which is great to learn what has come before and Digital subjects to learn the 'now' stuff. Lots of technical advice which would take me months of trial and error to learn. Its not so much to have the piece of paper to have on the wall, which IS nice, but having the knowledge in your head. Of course, like anything, you will only get out of the course what you put in. The course also involves the use of a studio, booking your own time for your own shoots, as well as class time for assignments. I think its going to be worthwhile...