T&C's that SH!T me to tears!

[Roosta]

Ok,

I've purchased tickets to the up and coming gig by 'The Church' here in Perth.

I read all the policy statements on the venue "Open air auditorium" in or around 'Red Hill' anyway, nothing about photography equipment. I have the idea that I'll send the standard email regarding photography equipment just in case, as I've been to the sister 'Auditorium' and it stated P&S only, no Pro gear allowed, no worries, got it.

Please advise on your policy to photography equipment as nothing listed on your website regarding this?

Email comes back with the usual blurb regarding no pro cameras and the like, I reply, so a camera with a detachable lens is ok? No only P&S allowed. But you don't have a listed policy, and I know the band is against the ritual laws and crap that we have to put up with at times, not so much rebels, but they have a cause.

So why do these places that have no policy, stop us as the paying punter, on bringing a DSLR to a gig? with out a policy? I understand if it's listed in B&W on a site/ticket before hand, but no policy???

What gives them the right to have a largish human at the door, tell me I can't enter due to my camera? do they feel intimidated by the tele lenght? I have purchased my ticket and have applied to the venues regs as they have stated, not my fault they have no policy, but get told via email, turn up with a DSLR and you won't get in.

I do however understand they may have a pro's or company/s shooting the event for promo, but that shouldn't stop the average punter, should it?

Love to hear your thoughts on this.

Are we being denined our right as individuals and as photographers???

[kiwi]

Why would you want to take a dslr ?

Is it fair, sure, more exclusive the photos the more they are worth if i am shooting them, sounds fair to me :-)

[Roosta]

Are you replying as their hired Pro (If they have one) or as a paying punter?

I have taken my DSLR to many concerts before, but always read the small print before hand, and sound if I'm allowed. Darren, I'm not trying to take away from paid pro's, but I know you know the difference in IQ and results in general between P&S and DSLR.

Is it fair, sure it is, I'm not getting paid to shoot the show, I wan't some for personal keeps. If I was getting paid for it, I'd be wearing a 'Getty' badge and getting plenty for it.

[kiwi]

I think just enjoy the concert personally, who wants 59 guys and girls with dslrs in the crowd all jostling for snaps ?

Is it right, dunno, it is for a few reasons including safety

[fess67]

Are you replying as their hired Pro (If they have one) or as a paying punter?

I have taken my DSLR to many concerts before, but always read the small print before hand, and sound if I'm allowed. Darren, I'm not trying to take away from paid pro's, but I know you know the difference in IQ and results in general between P&S and DSLR.

Is it fair, sure it is, I'm not getting paid to shoot the show, I wan't some for personal keeps. If I was getting paid for it, I'd be wearing a 'Getty' badge and getting plenty for it.

(my understanding).....You may not be getting paid BUT if you get a cracker of a shot AND the people in the know want that shot OR you decide to put it on the market, it can be sold and be in the media domain without the express permission of the artist or the venue. More than that, the venue, artist are not getting their cut of the revenue. Now we all know the world is run by accountants....they know f&%* all about cameras but lots about money. So, you cannot take that nice big camera in because the accountants have worked out it could cost them money.

Your mission (should you be stupid enough to try) is to convince the idiot accountants that many P&S cameras are more than capable of taking high quality images equal to the big 'pro' looking rigs. Good luck with that!!

As Kiwi said, enjoy the concert and chill. Otherwise, get a press pass (if you can) and go play but be prepared to pay a royalty on images, even those posted for fun on sites like this.

[I @ M]

Are we being denined our right as individuals and as photographers???

Put simply, you don't have any "rights", I don't know the specifics of the "venue" but I would assume that they, the event promoters, have entered into some kind of agreement with the owners of said place/s to use it and probably that includes them being allowed to accept / deny entry to anyone they feel like doing so to for whatever reason within the bounds of the law.

Yep, I feel your pain at not being able to carry out your hobby at such an event ---- but ---- I would also feel more pain if I had paid for a ticket to listen to the music and be part of the event and my "rights" were impinged upon by a camera wielding addict ( or multiples thereof ) who has the potential to spoil my night out.

[ricktas]

Private venues (stadiums, paddocks, houses) of any type can determine what happens on their property. Whilst I understand your gripe about them not having the T&C on the tickets, etc.

When you have a party at your place, and invite a few friends over, BBQ perhaps, do you give them a printed sheet, or have a large sign at the door stating your terms and conditions of entry? What happens if you get gate-crashed? The gate crashers using your T&C requirement could argue that there were not any T&C restricting us from entering. Now maybe this is a bit extreme, but the point is, that private property can have T&C applied to it, but it doesn't have to do so in writing.

Yeah, it can be frustrating, but in the end, we choose to either go along and enjoy ourselves, without our DSLR's or we get annoyed and agitated, and I bet the organisers could not care one iota, what some bloke from Northern Perth thinks, as long as the punters have paid their ticket prices.

[LJG]

Most of us use a photo hosting site these days and put a tag on anything we upload. Savvy entrepreneurs know this and may search the popular sites using tag searches to see if they can grab a great shot – for free. This then becomes just another way that the value of having a pro togger covering events is undermined.

Don’t get me wrong, I am all for freedom, but not at the expense of somebody else’s living. Besides, as already said above, if I go to a concert the last thing I want to be bothered with is lugging my gear around, worrying about its' security just to maybe (and I stress maybe) get “that shot” instead of just enjoying it with my wife. It is part of life as we know it Roosta so don't stress, just go and enjoy a great concert mate.

[junqbox]

One of the reasons why pro-togs are generally herded out after the 2nd or 3rd song is so the band can get on with the show without flash bulbs popping off every 10sec or so. I understand your gripe, but I'm getting sick to death of paying to see a show and being distracted by people trying to film it with their mobile phones (I don't think they realise how crap it's going to look) or relentless flashes going off.

[Bennymiata]

Why don't you take a good superzoom P&S with you instead?

[kiwi]

One of the reasons why pro-togs are generally herded out after the 2nd or 3rd song is so the band can get on with the show without flash bulbs popping off every 10sec or so. I understand your gripe, but I'm getting sick to death of paying to see a show and being distracted by people trying to film it with their mobile phones (I don't think they realise how crap it's going to look) or relentless flashes going off.

just on this, ive never seen a pro use flash at a concert, but yes, its like a supernova when the crowd do.

[junqbox]

just on this, ive never seen a pro use flash at a concert, but yes, its like a supernova when the crowd do.
This is true, but they do get to go in the section between the punters and the stage, so they don't have to worry about the rest of the punters jostling them around.

[Roosta]

Now we all know the world is run by accountants....they know f&%* all about cameras but lots about money. So, you cannot take that nice big camera in because the accountants have worked out it could cost them money.

Your mission (should you be stupid enough to try) is to convince the idiot accountants that many P&S cameras are more than capable of taking high quality images equal to the big 'pro' looking rigs. Good luck with that!!

Otherwise, get a press pass (if you can) and go play but be prepared to pay a royalty on images, even those posted for fun on sites like this.


Put simply, you don't have any "rights", I don't know the specifics of the "venue" but I would assume that they, the event promoters, have entered into some kind of agreement with the owners of said place/s to use it and probably that includes them being allowed to accept / deny entry to anyone they feel like doing so to for whatever reason within the bounds of the law.

I see the argument about cameras and lenses affecting punters views, but this venue is a outdoor sit-down, first in best seat to you in the house situation, no reversed seating, all out in the open. I would be sitting where ever, not along the punter barrier at the front behind any such paid photographers. So the situation is a little more subdued than the normal rock gig. I did reply to their email and mentioned that they might want to have something in their policy pages for complete clarification. Legally, I would have though they needed a statement to show their clear stance.

Press pass I wish. Then yes, I can see the other side of the argument, I would want as much money as I could get out of the images I shoot, but I don't have one.

Cheers for your input.

[Roosta]

Private venues (stadiums, paddocks, houses) of any type can determine what happens on their property. Whilst I understand your gripe about them not having the T&C on the tickets, etc. Trespass is one thing rick as to Houses as you've mentioned (The dreaded landscape photographers stopper at times) . Most venues have a understandable policy re lens size (Tele Lenght) as if you go to say NRL - AFL - Rugby - Soccer and the like. Venues here in Perth that host larger events have statements as well, clear and cut.


Now maybe this is a bit extreme, but the point is, that private property can have T&C applied to it, but it doesn't have to do so in writing. What's the point of having T&C's and NOT making them easily available? My mates can bring whatever gear they want, as for gate crashing, and unfortunately here in Perth, it happens all too often, that's a police matter over trespassing. I'm a paid punter to an event, very different position.


Yeah, it can be frustrating, but in the end, we choose to either go along and enjoy ourselves, without our DSLR's or we get annoyed and agitated, and I bet the organisers could not care one iota, what some bloke from Northern Perth thinks, as long as the punters have paid their ticket prices. True enough. But maybe I could or should be able to enjoy the gig and take my DSLR, that's one of my points.

Thanks Rick.

[Roosta]

One of the reasons why pro-togs are generally herded out after the 2nd or 3rd song is so the band can get on with the show without flash bulbs popping off every 10sec or so. I understand your gripe, but I'm getting sick to death of paying to see a show and being distracted by people trying to film it with their mobile phones (I don't think they realise how crap it's going to look) or relentless flashes going off.

I really think in this day and age, the people with a capable camera DSLR, don't need the flash/speedlite, I'm with you on the phones, I this instance, I'll be seated on a benched area, with some a###hole probably with their bloody phone in the air in front of me during the whole show, where as, I could have had a reasonably small lenses DSLR and not required any flash and got good quality shoots, allot better for the band and all around as I see it. any way.

[Roosta]

Why don't you take a good superzoom P&S with you instead?

Don't have one.

[old dog]

I was at a gig/concert last night and for a while there I wished I had taken my dslr........then.....this bloke comes in with a monopod with huge canon and bazooka lens on same. No flashing though but there was another bloke at the side with a flip out dslr (I think) and was videoing most of the time but then decided to take flashed stills. That was anoying. Lots of others holding up there P and S and phones. In a small venue as it was it was annoying. So I probably won`t take my camera when I go to another gig there. They seem (management) to be pretty free and easy about cameras and I`m not going to stress about not getting `that shot`......even though I would love to.

[Roosta]

I was at a gig/concert last night and for a while there I wished I had taken my dslr........then.....this bloke comes in with a monopod with huge canon and bazooka lens on same. No flashing though but there was another bloke at the side with a flip out dslr (I think) and was videoing most of the time but then decided to take flashed stills. That was anoying. Lots of others holding up there P and S and phones. In a small venue as it was it was annoying. So I probably won`t take my camera when I go to another gig there. They seem (management) to be pretty free and easy about cameras and I`m not going to stress about not getting `that shot`......even though I would love to.

Thanks Graeme, Did you get 'That Shot' tho?

[old dog]

nah....didn`t have my camera with me. That was ok though as the music was great....`John Hammond`....bluesman guitar player from USA.

[Mark L]

nah....didn`t have my camera with me. That was ok though as the music was great....`John Hammond`....bluesman guitar player from USA.
I'm thinking that's how it should be.
Are you there for the music, or to take photos to help you remember the music?
It may be good to have a visual reminder of any particular gig, but isn't the memory of the music enough?
BTW, I don't know the answer to these questions.:confused013 I'd love to have photos of my favourite gigs, but I still remember them and they're no less memorable for lack of photographic reminders.
If you don't need the photos, you don't need T&Cs.

[Roo]

I think it comes down to that they sell the memories (pics) not you or others, if you take pics then you might not buy there memorabilia. It's a business I can understand their view point.

[arthurking83]

It wasn't that long ago that someone was playing a video of a music concert on their iPhone.
I remember watching a few seconds of it and thinking to myself 'why'?

The two of them stood there watching a few small blacks dots on a crooked horizon scorching under massively blown out supanova for lighting, and listening to to the tinniest pathetic sound from the speakers and mesmerised by it.
The few seconds of the video that I saw looked like a nature doco of two bacteria cells, being studied under UV light on a glass plate in a Petri dish, both screaming like hell ... didn't look or sound like a concert to me! :p

I understand the frustration(with T&C's), I can't understand the restrictive ideology of the organising parties tho.
I think that if anything, they should encourage punters to come along with their xx-xxx zooms and try to better the paid togs to capture better images.
This way it keeps the paid pros 'honest'.

One thing I can't stand more than BS T&C's is lazy arsed paid professionals who's only chance of getting great images is to eliminate any possible competition!
That is, in general, the only reason their images end up 'in demand' is because of a lack of any other source.
It's backward thinking in that it breeds a system of complacency.
Complacency = Boredom.

I remember a primary school concert I attended a few years back at my kids school. The strict instruction from the school this particular year(which had never been requested in the previous two years!!) was that no large cameras and definitely flash was allowed during the concert.
They'd organised a (un)professional mob(of unknown brand) to do both photos and video, and the quality of the photos were best described as laughable!
Even tho I have no proof of this, I know(deep down as a generally suspicious type of person), that the school would have had as part of any signed contract a clause limiting the parents of the student in capturing images themselves.
Of course without hard evidence, this is only a theory I have, but in my mind it simply reinforces one important thing. Too many businesses are banking on the fact that 99% of 'punters' just don't give a damn, and they will simply accept any old garbage as a consumable product.
And so for these businesses to protect themselves against any quarter decent alternative, they need to have the instruments set in place to effect litigation in an efficient manner if it comes to that.

This was a few years back, maybe two or three, but I did notice one striking omission from last years school concert .. no inept paid for video/still production team :th3:
One of the teachers did something in house.

Like Mark said tho.. just try to relax more about the ordeal, rather than trying to forcibly capture memories of it. Take your P&S, snap a few frames of yourself and your party at the gig and worry less about an image of the band/group/artist.
If you get the odd half decent snap of this religious establishment of worship clan, then cool! .. enjoy! If not, then cool! .. enjoy! ;)

[Bennymiata]

I can just imagine being at a concert with 200 DSLRs all jostling for position near the stage and flashes going off every second.

It would drive me crazy.

[ameerat42]

I haven't read all the posts, but I'm thinking that for personal snaps shouldn't a "goodish P+S" suffice?
Anyway, these "largish humans", as you put it, may not yet know about EVIL cameras. They mostly look P+S-ish.

[junqbox]

[QUOTE=arthurking83;944226]It wasn't that long ago that someone was playing a video of a music concert on their iPhone.
I remember watching a few seconds of it and thinking to myself 'why'?

The two of them stood there watching a few small blacks dots on a crooked horizon scorching under massively blown out supanova for lighting, and listening to to the tinniest pathetic sound from the speakers and mesmerised by it.
The few seconds of the video that I saw looked like a nature doco of two bacteria cells, being studied under UV light on a glass plate in a Petri dish, both screaming like hell ... didn't look or sound like a concert to me! :p

Can't work it out either myself

I understand the frustration(with T&C's), I can't understand the restrictive ideology of the organising parties tho.
I think that if anything, they should encourage punters to come along with their xx-xxx zooms and try to better the paid togs to capture better images.
This way it keeps the paid pros 'honest'.[QUOTE]

This then creates a situation not dissimilar to a paid tog trying to shoot a one off event like a wedding with Uncle Artur and his SLR getting in the way of everything and spoiling something they're paid to record.

[Roosta]

It may be good to have a visual reminder of any particular gig, but isn't the memory of the music enough?


If it was for everybody, why do so many people record or photgraph the shows with what ever means possible? Do you have any images of previous concerts you've been to?

[Roosta]

I can just imagine being at a concert with 200 DSLRs all jostling for position near the stage and flashes going off every second.

It would drive me crazy.

Why do you need a flash?

[Roosta]

I haven't read all the posts, but I'm thinking that for personal snaps shouldn't a "goodish P+S" suffice?
Anyway, these "largish humans", as you put it, may not yet know about EVIL cameras. They mostly look P+S-ish.

1, I don't have one.

2, Not much good unless your on the punter barrier, like most above have presumed, this venus is diferent. You need to forget about a typical large concert venue, lots of young kids and the like, try a more mature crowd, seated areas, bench in a old quarry, and a bloody good band IMO anyway. A P&S would be usless, unless you want a pic of the persons head infront of you.

Look, at the end of the day I was trying to get across the point that a premises should have a clear statement regarding T&C's, Rick has chopped plenty of shots/images from this site due to T&C's, but this venue has none, that's the point. If I had have turned up and been rejected entry after buying my ticket and believing I could bring my setup, only to find at the last minute, I'm not welcolme, well how would you fell?

That's the point.

[ameerat42]

...Look, at the end of the day I was trying to get across the point that a premises should have a clear statement regarding T&C's, Rick has chopped plenty of shots/images from this site due to T&C's, but this venue has none, that's the point. If I had have turned up and been rejected entry after buying my ticket and believing I could bring my setup, only to find at the last minute, I'm not welcolme, well how would you fell?

That's the point...

Yes, Roosta. That's lamentable, but it will always be the case because we do not operate in a prefect drowl. (Especially venues such as you describe.)

[Mark L]

Do you have any images of previous concerts you've been to?
Yes, of Springsteen, at Sydney Ent. Cent. in the 80's. Went 4 nights in a row, took the camera one night. Can't remember the last time I looked at them, but I remember how awesome Bruce was and I still listen to his music.
Don't own a P&S, don't even have a mobile phone, don't have any other images of gigs I've been to.:confused013

[mongo]

Mongo can see the arguments for and against DSLRs with serious lenses at the concert.
Just some quick points:-


They do have the right at a private venue to set the T&Cs of entry (unless any of the T &Cs are in conflict with any legislation);
You , as the paying punter should be able to rely on the T&Cs as complete and exhaustive and should not have to look beyond them or ask extra questions to find out what they really all are. In other words, what is not in the T&Cs when you buy your ticket cannot later be added thus changing the basis of your understanding and agreement under which you bought your ticket.
If they say no DSLRs (or P&Ss only) on their T&Cs when you bought the ticket , you should be held to that even if you do not agree with it – just as they should be held to allowing you a DSLR if they had not excluded it directly or indirectly (e.g. by saying you are only allowed a P&S camera in the published T&Cs)
First rule of concert going is - enjoy the concert. The second rule is if the T&Cs say only a P&S, then, take the mother of all P&Ss to the concert. Some P&Ss that Mongo knows (and owns) have 12 megapixels, zoom range of 27 to 483mm, image stabilizers, low noise, Leica lenses etc, etc. Why do you worry about an SLR with this sort of P&S available (apart from the fact that you should not have to go out and buy other gear just to go to a concert to take some pictures) ?

[Roosta]

Mongo can see the arguments for and against DSLRs with serious lenses at the concert.
Just some quick points:-
You , as the paying punter should be able to rely on the T&Cs as complete and exhaustive and should not have to look beyond them or ask extra questions to find out what they really all are. In other words, what is not in the T&Cs when you buy your ticket cannot later be added thus changing the basis of your understanding and agreement under which you bought your ticket.

Hi Mongo, Completly agree, and this was my main point, Tickets turned up the other day, still no T&C's regarding photography of any kind on them, site still has no update either, this is what SH!TS me to Tears.

Where did you get this information from? Is it legaly binding? or have you heard this before?

[mongo]

Roosta,
these are just some basic legal principles (BUT MONGO IS NOT GIVING LEGAL ADVICE !!). There may be a lot more to it also when you start to delve into it which may diminish or extend these principles. There is a mountain of law relating to conditions of a contract, how to bring them properly to your notice of what they are, when they incorporated into the contract and when not, how they may be varied etc etc.

If you have a local Department of Fair Trading or its equivalent in WA, you can have a friendly chat with them - they may e helpful but this is really a job for your own legal advice. It may not be worth your while to go down that track. Also, even if the advice is in your favour, it may not prevent you from being excluded on the night if you show up with gear they do not like (even if it is not excluded by the contract). All that will do is , at best, give you rights for compensation if they were in the wrong. But by then , you will have missed the concert and the possibilities of any photos at all. A bit like win the battle but lose the war.

The best approach by far is to get express written consent (before the event) to bring and use certain gear. Make sure it is on official letterhead of the organisers, it mentions you by name and take it with you to the concert entry gate on the night with some personal photo ID to prove who you are. If you cannot get them to agree to this and their actions are too uncertain or inconsistent, you maybe should write to the Minister for Fair Trading (or equivalent) in your state and point out something should be done to protect the consumer and give certainty to these transactions. However, that could lead to all concert organisers to include in all conditions, a ban on all SLR gear in all circumstances of concerts and like. Hard to know what the best answer is.

[cupic]

I can relate to your concerns of T&C.While not strictly concert ,but when I bought tickets to the ashes earlier this year I was told NO pro gear.So I emailed a couple of times and the last one said no larger than 200mm .So being a citizen and not wanting to chance the long arm security I slip a TC under my jeans,so the best i could hope was 280mm.Went to the game (I wish I didnt) and nothing not even a look.Just cant pick it.But in relation to concerts a Dslr is like a weapon for the public around you,and anyways a P&S would be easier to nab a good couple of shots

cheers

[Roosta]

Roosta,
these are just some basic legal principles (BUT MONGO IS NOT GIVING LEGAL ADVICE !!). There may be a lot more to it also when you start to delve into it which may diminish or extend these principles. There is a mountain of law relating to conditions of a contract, how to bring them properly to your notice of what they are, when they incorporated into the contract and when not, how they may be varied etc etc.

If you have a local Department of Fair Trading or its equivalent in WA, you can have a friendly chat with them - they may e helpful but this is really a job for your own legal advice. It may not be worth your while to go down that track. Also, even if the advice is in your favour, it may not prevent you from being excluded on the night if you show up with gear they do not like (even if it is not excluded by the contract). All that will do is , at best, give you rights for compensation if they were in the wrong. But by then , you will have missed the concert and the possibilities of any photos at all. A bit like win the battle but lose the war.

The best approach by far is to get express written consent (before the event) to bring and use certain gear. Make sure it is on official letterhead of the organisers, it mentions you by name and take it with you to the concert entry gate on the night with some personal photo ID to prove who you are. If you cannot get them to agree to this and their actions are too uncertain or inconsistent, you maybe should write to the Minister for Fair Trading (or equivalent) in your state and point out something should be done to protect the consumer and give certainty to these transactions. However, that could lead to all concert organisers to include in all conditions, a ban on all SLR gear in all circumstances of concerts and like. Hard to know what the best answer is.

Thanks Mongo, It's alright, I won't hold you to it, but I can see the good and bad in the answer, yes we as cupic below mentioned could start a DSLR war, don't wan't to do professionals out of coin either, but fair game when not listed as far as I'm concerned is fair game. Should it not?

Rick's policies and T&C's couldn't be any clearer on this site, for an example of the right way to do it. That is..

[TOM]

I agree with Kiwi. Just leave the camera home, and go enjoy yourself.