How to price my wedding photography?

[christay]

Hi all :)

So, I photographed my first wedding ALONE after gaining experience in the field - YAY! I must say I am extremely happy with the way the photos turned out. The wedding was a close friend of mine, who had a very limited budget and didn't want anything to flash (reception at our local pub? lol) Anyway, as they were close friends I decided I'd do it for a couple hundred dollars. I now, want to get into the wedding photography industry and start advertising but I'm so caught up at how to price the packages?

What do I include? I want to give them quality images but not undersell myself. Seriously, I don't know what I'm worth? lol. As I've never put together proper "pricing and packages" I don't know what to include, should I start at low pricing and work my way up or what?

Any advice, ideas, etc from any fellow wedding or portrait photographer or anyone that has a clue, would be greatly appreciated :)

Once I've finished the last final touches to the images, I will post some for critique :rolleyes:

Thanks x0x0 :D

[jasevk]

I've done a 12 month plan, and this dictates my price for wedding and portrait sessions.

Firstly, I determined ALL my costs: insurances, business cards/flyers etc, advertising, website, professional membership fees, car running costs, telephone and electricity costs, presentation boxes, discs, prints, office equipment, gear upgrades and maintenance etc etc etc.

Then I estimated that 75% of my costs would be sitting with weddings. So I totalled up all my annual costs and split it 75 weddings, 25 portraits.

So let's say for example, my annual cost is $10,000. Therefore my annual cost for weddings is $7500 and for portraits is $2500. I then estimated that I would do 3 weddings this year and 10 portrait sessions.

So now I know that, each wedding I need to make $2,500, and $250 for each portrait session just to break even. Do I set these as base prices? For Weddings, pretty much, have 4 weddings locked in, so I'll make a profit this year. For portraits... no, because if I tell someone they need to pay 250 upfront before they receive anything, they'll tell me to jump! So I accept some risk and set a modest sitting fee and do my best to produce great images and sell some prints etc.

Right wrong or indifferent, this is my approach, and it's seen my costs covered and some profit to invest into some new gear, which as a part-timer with another full time income, I'm happy with at this stage :)

[kiwi]

A bit of a reality check, before going to shoot any more weddings your existing equipment list on face value is woefully short of quality and backups.......maybe start by throwing a few thousand additional $ into a professional kit before you become professional ?

[jasevk]

A bit of a reality check, before going to shoot any more weddings your existing equipment list on face value is woefully short of quality and backups.......maybe start by throwing a few thousand additional $ into a professional kit before you become professional ?

So true... even at over $30k, I'm still needing more gear... When you consider computer equipment and software packages, other lighting gear, backups etc, the amount of gear needed is quite amazing and expensive

[ricktas]

Do you have public liability insurance? No..there goes your $200.00 and more that you planned to charge for your first wedding. Guess what..a guest at the wedding trips over your gear bag, breaks a leg, cannot work and sues you for $40K...business gone.

[ricktas]

A bit of a reality check, before going to shoot any more weddings your existing equipment list on face value is woefully short of quality and backups.......maybe start by throwing a few thousand additional $ into a professional kit before you become professional ?

I agree with this. Whilst your 1000D will take good photos, what are you planning to do if the shutter seizes up 10 minutes into a 5 hour wedding shoot?

[Duane Pipe]

I agree with this. Whilst your 1000D will take good photos, what are you planning to do if the shutter seizes up 10 minutes into a 5 hour wedding shoot?

lol Iphone. I did a friend's wedding as back up tog just for the experience and all I wanted was a slab of beer and I now regret it, I gave all the images to them to select what they wanted PPd and now I cant be bothered, so thats just one thing to think about, post processing is a time consuming part of the process So I think you need to be efficient in that aspect

[William W]

I photographed my first wedding ALONE after gaining experience in the field - YAY! . . . I now, want to get into the wedding photography industry and start advertising but I'm so caught up at how to price the packages? . . . [goes onto explain that pricing issues are a problem] . . .


Jumping to Pricing your Packages, appears desperately premature.



Any advice, ideas, etc from any fellow wedding or portrait photographer or anyone that has a clue, would be greatly appreciated.


STEP 1. Define accurately: “The Business” you wish to make.
STEP 2. Make a comprehensive Business Plan, addressing EACH element of the Business Definition.

The “Business Plan” will include three Key Plans, but be not limited to only those elements:
1. The Fiscal Plan (as in the daily running)
2. The Internal Logistics Plan (ALL Business Systems, including Advertising and Marketing)
3. The Capital Plan (as in Capital Purchases)
4. A Timeline for implantation of each plan and each portion of each Plan.

WW

[Wayne]

lol Iphone. I did a friend's wedding as back up tog just for the experience and all I wanted was a slab of beer and I now regret it, I gave all the images to them to select what they wanted PPd and now I cant be bothered, so thats just one thing to think about, post processing is a time consuming part of the process So I think you need to be efficient in that aspect

I'm with Duane, I did one wedding for a friend at no cost, terrible experience and no desire to do it again. I also find that whenever I do some work for anyone, I am happy to do the shoot, then I just get lazy and lose interest when it comes to PP. For a wedding and having many images that probably need to be processed, I just could not be bothered. As I don't make a living from it, that may be part reason for my lack of interest and then further compounded because I am not that efficient with the PP, it probably takes me far longer to pp than most, and that is time you can't necessarily charge for.

Saying all that, I have been approached a number of times by locals out here to do weddings, and I could charge a pretty penny simply due to the market here, but every time I get asked, I just shake my head and tell them no thanks, I don't need the headache...

There are many things to consider besides clicking the shutter button and doing some PP.

[peterb666]

It is one thing to do a wedding for a friend and just recover costs. I would probably do it as a present as the $ per hour is pretty pointless if doing all your own processing.

Now it is a completely different matter if you are doing wedding photography as a commercial venture. You need to price your job based on a combination of experience and the quality of what you can reliably deliver. It also needs to cover the costs mentioned above but the exercise of doing commercial wedding photography is not about delivering "cost plus" but quality and perceived value. It is the latter two that determine what you can charge.

[peterb666]

For a wedding and having many images that probably need to be processed, I just could not be bothered.

Here in lies the trick. From what I gather, most wedding photographers do not do their own post processing. Furthermore, it it take more than 5 mintues to post process any image, it wasn't worth taking it in the first instance. Professional wedding photographers in the business tend to take less photos than non-professional photographers but then there are far less that don't get the cut. I guess that is the advantage of experience and ultimately how some people can make a living out of it.

For the OP, good luck on what ever you decide.

[William W]

From what I gather, most wedding photographers do not do their own post processing.

Could you outline the sourse(s) / sample group(s) for that opinion, which you have, please?

WW

[peterb666]

My niece who is a wedding photographer and several former wedding photographers I know. Not a big sample group but 100% on not doing their own processing, either from film days or digital days. It just isn't time/cost effective when you do 35 or more shoots a year.

[Longshots]

I personally know at least in excess of 500 wedding shooters, and the percentage who outsource their processing to my knowledge is less than 5%. So I'm keen to know the source of it being a majority who outsource.

[ricktas]

I know a few around Hobart who 'out-source'. What they seem to do here is get a person with some PS skills in, train them up in what they want, and then when the wedding is done, give them the files, the person edits them at home, and returns them to the photographer. They are usually paid something like $100-$200 to do the editing.

Though I would not really call this out-sourcing as they are using an employee to do the work, however all the ones I know of, are paid in cash and are not really employees in the legal sense. I have always wondered if these photographers tell their clients that editing is done by 'employees'.

But this is all getting right off-topic from the original thread questions.

[JM Tran]

I dont outsource, because I dont need to atm - can process and edit a wedding to final submission in under a week easily. Last weekend, shot just over 1000 RAWs, processed and edited and submitted 380 shots.......in 3 days - to my usual high standard.

If you know how to maximize your work efficiency and streamline a lot of things, like making your own presets and actions for PS, and other other stuff - it doesnt take long. But then again this is my full time job so I dont have the added burden of working another 9-5 job and come home and only being able to edit at night time.

[kiwi]

If you could someone in India to do it in three days for $10 an hour ? Then what ?

[JM Tran]

If you could someone in India to do it in three days for $10 an hour ? Then what ?


then you should/would realize that they would not have the same vision or artistic direction the way you want it to be? So in the end, 99% of the time I would not be happy with their end product. Each of my wedding photo is not the same so there is really no uniformity to follow, even each wedding is different. So the said Indian would have no reference of style or guideline to follow - guidelines on paper is different to what the eyes will see and interpret.

[kiwi]

I agree btw

[KeeFy]

then you should/would realize that they would not have the same vision or artistic direction the way you want it to be? So in the end, 99% of the time I would not be happy with their end product. Each of my wedding photo is not the same so there is really no uniformity to follow, even each wedding is different. So the said Indian would have no reference of style or guideline to follow - guidelines on paper is different to what the eyes will see and interpret.

Interesting about the outsourcing thing. I absolutely agree where the vision and idea of the shot cannot be conveyed unless the person doing the PP thinks exactly like the shotmaker. It's like a baker handing dough to his assistant and expecting his assistant to know he wanted to bake in the first place. Makes no sense and IMO absolutely unprofessional.

[William W]

My niece who is a wedding photographer and several former wedding photographers I know. etc

Thank you for the answer.

Not my intention to take the thread off the topic: I simply wanted my question answered, by the author of the comment.

WW

[mpot]

then you should/would realize that they would not have the same vision or artistic direction the way you want it to be? So in the end, 99% of the time I would not be happy with their end product. Each of my wedding photo is not the same so there is really no uniformity to follow, even each wedding is different. So the said Indian would have no reference of style or guideline to follow - guidelines on paper is different to what the eyes will see and interpret.

I would never sell unedited images (some good arguments and discussion on it in this DPS (http://www.digital-photography-school.com/should-we-ever-sell-raw-unedited-images) post).

Interestingly, even some high-profile photographers, such as Jasmine Star (http://www.jasminestarblog.com/), outsource their post-processing.
Jasmine uses Photographer's Edit (http://www.photographersedit.com/index.html), who charge upto a few hundred dollars to post-process a set of wedding photos. According to this post (http://www.jasminestarblog.com/index.cfm?postID=850&faq), it looks like Jasmine does some culling and initial processing in LightRoom, then uses Photographer's Edit to create the final result, with the photos being turned around by them in less than 7 business days.

I don't like the idea of out-sourcing the post-processing of my photos, as it means I am delegating the responsibility of the processing to someone else, and losing control of that part of the creative process.

[Longshots]

Out sourcing is different to those who employ people within their studios to process their images.

Just thought it was worthwhile pointing out the difference.

PS I wouldnt outsource post production, but I would outsource Album design. Just a personal choice.

[farquar]

My my how the digital revolution has affected the way we work. I wonder how many of you used to 'outsource' the processing of your film?

To the OP: Please get some more experience shooting weddings before daring to charge a stranger to shoot their wedding. It sounds like you are riding on a bit of a high after having so much fun - but there is so much more to being a successful wedding photographer than that. Do a workshop (or 3) and second shoot (or just carry the bag) for a few different shooters. I admire your vigour but take a step back, forget about 'how much money you could be making for doing something you love' and get your hands dirty first.

[Longshots]

Well actually, to be specific, outsourcing the processing of your film was pretty standard, as most couldnt cope with the time and investment of owning and running their own processing for colour films.

So while I personally couldnt envisage it, as post processing for me is part of the creative phoographic process, I can understand why a percentage outsource.

[ricktas]

This thread was about wedding photography quoting, please let's try and get it back on track..thanks

[virgal_tracy]

I've done a 12 month plan, and this dictates my price for wedding and portrait sessions.

Firstly, I determined ALL my costs: insurances, business cards/flyers etc, advertising, website, professional membership fees, car running costs, telephone and electricity costs, presentation boxes, discs, prints, office equipment, gear upgrades and maintenance etc etc etc.

Then I estimated that 75% of my costs would be sitting with weddings. So I totalled up all my annual costs and split it 75 weddings, 25 portraits.

So let's say for example, my annual cost is $10,000. Therefore my annual cost for weddings is $7500 and for portraits is $2500. I then estimated that I would do 3 weddings this year and 10 portrait sessions.

So now I know that, each wedding I need to make $2,500, and $250 for each portrait session just to break even. Do I set these as base prices? For Weddings, pretty much, have 4 weddings locked in, so I'll make a profit this year. For portraits... no, because if I tell someone they need to pay 250 upfront before they receive anything, they'll tell me to jump! So I accept some risk and set a modest sitting fee and do my best to produce great images and sell some prints etc.

Right wrong or indifferent, this is my approach, and it's seen my costs covered and some profit to invest into some new gear, which as a part-timer with another full time income, I'm happy with at this stage :)

This to me is the only way to set your pricing. If you arbitrarily set it based on what others are charging and taking into consideration where you think your skill level is at then you may be setting yourself up to fail in a business sense. You will not be able to succeed or even continue in business if you are effectively making a loss from every wedding, portrait shoot etc. It's OK if you have a wealthy spouse who can subsidise the photography but somewhere down the line it needs to make money in a real sense. Jasevk example is good but has not included what he wants to get paid from it and even a little profit.

The discussion about outsourcing is in a way applicable to the discussion because if you wish to go down that track then it has to be included in how you work out your costs. Outsourcing may in the ned make you money. If outsopurcing allows you to work ON the business as opposed to IN the business that could be what makes you more success ful than the next photographer.

[jasevk]

Jasevk example is good but has not included what he wants to get paid from it and even a little profit.



Thanks for pointing that out, those details and costs are to be include in my 2012/13 plan, or 'stage 2' of my longer term plan.

I think it was important to keep this realistic in the current market, and assume that I would only operate as part time at best. My plan is to increase my desired 'wage' progressively over the next 5yrs.

[jasevk]

No response from the OP as yet?

[Longshots]

This thread was about wedding photography quoting, please let's try and get it back on track..thanks

I thought thats what we were talking about as well ?

Because outsourcing is a very important part of pricing your wedding photography. And while the OP hasnt returned with a response, the discussion that evolved (important word that) is surely helpful to both viewers and discussion participants. My apologies, I dont want to question your judgement, but the issues are very much related.

Can you please create a new topic then ? As the conversation is a beneficial one for anyone wanting to understand the basics of this fairly simple question.

I'd like to add an issue on the outsourcing, which I dont disagree with, but want to highlight a well known former issue for unhappy customers in the wedding industry.

And its particularly in response to this comment "If outsopurcing allows you to work ON the business as opposed to IN the business that could be what makes you more successful than the next photographer." Exactly, at what point do you want to be "in the business" ? And at what point "ON" ?

Because the former issue I referred to is one of outsourcing everything, which includes the photographer by the studio commissioned to shoot the wedding - and the first time the bride and groom know about it, is when the photographer, who has been subcontracted by the studio hired by the bride and groom to supply wedding photography coverage.

In my time I've met several "photographers" who dont actually do anything other than sell the business of photography, being particularly good salespeople, and not particularly successful shooters. I'm well aware of the practie of litereally outsourcing everything. So the analogy of being On as opposed to In, is excellent; but just seen and understood from a very different perspective.

Now, while this is frowned upon by the more ethical side of the industry, its not unusual for it to happen, and there is absolutely no guarantee, that the images shown to the prospective bride and groom to secure a booking, will have any relationship to what is produced by the subcontracted photographer. My own partner, had such an experience, with the photographer photographing her wedding was a total surprise, as she had understood that she'd booked a particular personality, and not the stranger who went on to ruin her day, and produce woeful images. The contract with the photographer/studio wasnt exactly breaching the law at the time, but it was/is unethical.

So, all of these types of options need to be considered, before meeting with a potential customer.

In the OP's case, they've shot the wedding, and now want to know what to charge. A classic case of Cart before the Horse. I cant imagine anyone doing this, but of course it happens in many other areas in addition to photography ie setting someone on a course of action to produce a service without agreeing on costs prior to the event. Always a mad choice.

BTW I think Jasevk's response to date had been the most helpful :)

[peterb666]

Except for one caveat noted below, outsourcing has nothing to do with pricing. It is a cost. The thing outsourcing allows you to do is to concentrate on the high value components of your job and you can spend your time doing that while others do the lower value work. Outsourcing is a way of maximising your return compared to your input.

Pricing is determined on your skill and reputation and the level of demand you can create for your work. If pricing was determined on costs, they everyone can be a successful wedding photographer and god help us.

The quality of work from outsourcing has an impact on your reputation and therefore how much you can charge. Keeping control of the quality including work outsourced is one of the skills required when outsourcing is used.

[jasevk]

Except for one caveat noted below, outsourcing has nothing to do with pricing. It is a cost. The thing outsourcing allows you to do is to concentrate on the high value components of your job and you can spend your time doing that while others do the lower value work. Outsourcing is a way of maximising your return compared to your input.

Pricing is determined on your skill and reputation and the level of demand you can create for your work. If pricing was determined on costs, they everyone can be a successful wedding photographer and god help us.

The quality of work from outsourcing has an impact on your reputation and therefore how much you can charge. Keeping control of the quality including work outsourced is one of the skills required when outsourcing is used.

Sorry, but I must disagree and make 2 points:

- pricing should be based on the quality of your work PLUS your costs. I would call into question, the business skills of anybody who did not see costs as an absolutely critical element of their pricing process.

- why should a photographer disclose to a client whether they outsource this or not? I base this comment on the hypothetical scenario where a photographer has built a working relationship with a competent retoucher, who understands the photographers artistic direction.

Wrong, right or indifferent, that's my 2cents worth on that :)

[Longshots]

Except for one caveat noted below, outsourcing has nothing to do with pricing. It is a cost..

Sorry - have to disagree with that

Knowing your costs, has everything to do with pricing. And as you say outsourcing is a cost, and therefore everything to do with pricing. So if you dont know your costs, you wont know what to price something at and still make money.

But on your second:




Pricing is determined on your skill and reputation and the level of demand you can create for your work. If pricing was determined on costs, they everyone can be a successful wedding photographer and god help us.



Well actually in practice it isnt. For many reasons. One of them rather obvious, and related. Which is that if you dont know what your costs are, you're also not likely to know your skill level, or even reputation. So again answering the OP, you need to have a good idea of your costs before you can attempt a pricing structure. Yes, you can then take into account your skill level and reputation.

Your third paragraph, I agree entirely. But if your outsourcing of say photo processing/retouching costs more than the total charged initially, then its obvious you're going to lose money.

So the costs have to be taken into account to formulate a pricing structure.

And I'm afraid that the OP's initial question suggests that you may actually be right, because so many people think that then can be a wedding photographer - successful; is probably subjective. I'm sure that I'm not alone in knowing the conundrum of successful wedding photographers that are a) losing money or b) making money but producing woeful photos - I know a very small percentage who are both successful in producing amazing images and making an above average income as a result.

[William W]

RE - Setting prices for a new Wedding Photography Business:

Any cost (fiscal or time) to a business might and most likely always will have an effect on pricing the product or service of that business.

More noticeably: the comparative costs to a business between two ALTERNATIVE costs which are DISLIKE in nature will need to be closely considered and evaluated, as being different in nature, they do not allow for a simple A/B comparison.,

For example – the cost of Outsourcing Digital Post Production is a fiscal cost; but a time value-add and whilst we might evaluate the Photographer’s time at $200.00 per hour, based upon a base “shooting time” and reconcile that against the cost of outsourcing PP at $50.00 per hour cost as a net fiscal gain – the comparison and the balance sheet are skewed, if the Photographer is down the pub and NOT out shooting for those addition hours whilst the PP is outsourced.

But irrespective of that and assuming the quality of the outsourcing service is acceptable – the cost of that outsourcing service is very likely relevant, apropos the setting of the Wedding Photography Prices, even in the most simple of equations and within a simple Business Plan.

As one simple example and irrespective of any ACTUAL prices charged, based solely upon the “time value-add” of Outsourcing PP would give a working Photographer who was beginning a new business and assuming a planned growth, for that business:

We Define the Business we want and then we write a Business Plan which conforms to that Definition . . . and we find that the Business Plan evolves to contain:


a requirement outcome, to build the business over the first four years such that the shoot rate is to be 60 weddings per year, at beginning of year four.
the procedure attributed to that outcome was to market on competitive price to maximize the growth of the Client Rate.
quantifying the "time value add" to the Photographer of outsourcing the PP, the estimate is that, at point “30 Weddings per year” – there will be a definite need to be outsourcing some of the PP, to allow 31 weddings per year, to be shot.
Therefore the cost of that Outsourcing PP, will have to be made to account, in respect of the pricing of the Wedding Coverage, because it will, at growth point “31 wedding per year” have an effect upon the real costs to the business (i.e. the business has to pay it). And continue to pay it, thereafter, until after the growth point target is reached.
BUT - moreover, the EXPECTATION of the cost of Outsourcing the PP has to be taken into account when pricing the Wedding Photography Coverage initially: because by the definition of “Wedding Photography Bookings” - the growth point 31 per year will be reached with many booking ALREADY IN PLACE and at an already CONTRACTED and FIRM PRICE.


Now this outsourcing example might or might not affect the OP in respect of her specific situation – but it does provide to an example of the content which would be detailed in her Business Plan.

However, before the Business Plan is drafted, the Business must be clearly Defined – both were suggested to the OP, earlier.

WW

[kiwi]

I think a lot of part timers look at it simply

What did I earn today sitting on my arse watching repeats of Oprah versus the $500 cash I now have in my pocket

And that's about it

[Longshots]

and what happens when a) it cost you more than the cash in your pocket (ie you didnt have public liability insurance, a wedding guest trips over your bag, and the only money you still have is the cash in your pocket thanks to the legal system where solicitors flourish on the no win no fee system on liabilityy claims, and b) the ATO are knocking on you door about undeclared income, as specifically this year and last year part time photographers who dont declare their income is on their hit list.

Good luck with the Oprah repeats :scrtch:

[peterb666]

and what happens when a) it cost you more than the cash in your pocket (ie you didnt have public liability insurance, a wedding guest trips over your bag, and the only money you still have is the cash in your pocket thanks to the legal system where solicitors flourish on the no win no fee system on liabilityy claims, and b) the ATO are knocking on you door about undeclared income, as specifically this year and last year part time photographers who dont declare their income is on their hit list.


All very good questions and that's were a bit of research and a business plan come into play. A well thought out business plan should address those issues and take them into consideration to help determine if someone should be heading down the path of photography as a business. There are many good photographers and not all will make good business people.

[peterb666]

There have been some interesting views on pricing here and some have hit the mark.

Maybe it is easiest to relate to a simple scenario that most would be familiar with.

Imagine two camera shops side by side. Store A has a high turnover and has negotiated a very good discount from rrp on the stock they buy.

Store B has a low turnover and consequently has a much smaller discount from the rrp on the stock they buy.

They pay the same rent; have the same number of staff and other expenses.

Store A can sell you that wonderful 10-200mm f/2* ultra zoom for $1500 because they have priced their stuff at cost plus.
(* obviously a bit of artisitic licence in the scenario)

Store B can sell you that wonderful 10-200mm f/2 ultra zoom for $1900 because they have priced their stuff at cost plus.

Where are you going to buy that lens?

Of course there are different variations on that scenario where both enter a discounting war and store A sells the lens for $1400 and makes say $200 and Store B would like to match the price but the lens cost them $1450? If you are Store B, do you sell at a loss and how long can you endure that?

I wonder why people don’t think similar scenarios do not apply to other goods and services. Wedding photography is a service and produces tangible goods as an outcome. People are buying quality and the photographer’s experience and an expectation that a good product will be delivered. If you should only price your wedding photography based on cost plus (as some seem to claim), what is the point of providing a better service and better photography? You would be wasting your time. That is not how the market works.

Why are some wedding photographers able to charge $10,000 and more for a one-day job using a single shooter while other’s struggle to command $1,500? It isn’t the cost of doing the work although the costs may be different. The customer doesn't give a stuff about YOUR costs and the customer is the only one that is going to give you money.

When setting up a business, regardless of what that business is, I would recommend the following (and in addition to any other skills you need, e.g. as a photographer):

1. Go to your local TAFE or other centre that provides courses in small business management. You can do a short course that will teach you about creating business plans, pricing, the legal aspect of running a business, the types of business structures you can use, marketing, book-keeping etc. A few hundred dollars well spent.

2. Do your research. Get to know who is operating in your area, their experience and pricing etc.

3. Get as much experience as you can relevant to the business, e.g. as a second shooter and learn how the type of business operates, learn where the costs are, the risks and the opportunities for making a bit of higher value income for little effort.

4. Develop a realistic and conservative business plan. You will need to be able to estimate expected costings and future income. This needs to be based on more than just a wish. Create several scenarios to determine what you will need to bring in income that to cover the expenses. This will not determine what you can charge but will help you figure out if you can make the venture worthwhile based on the knowledge gained along the way and the next point.

5. Before investing heavily, test the market and determine whether people are willing to pay the sort of money you need.

The bottom line to pricing is to price your goods and services to what the market will accept. If you price to cover costs and the market thinks you are too expensive for the perceived quality and service you are offering, you will not get work.

If you price to cover costs plus a margin and have underestimated your potential, you will not earn as much as you could have. One of the advantages of photography as a business is that if you already own suitable gear and can do your own processing, printing etc, then the overheads are low and you should not make a loss. By not knowing what you can get within the market you operate, then you run the risk of not earning to your full potential.

If you are going to set up as a part-time business and have that all important “day-time” job, you will be fine regardless of what happens. If you are expecting to make a living out of it, you really do need to do a lot more work.

That’s the best advice that I can offer and it applies to any business venture. You are under no obligation to take my advice.

[ricstew]

Ophooey ya scared her away :( I wanted to see the wedding pics :)
cheers
Jan

[Longshots]

There have been some interesting views on pricing here and some have hit the mark.


Of course there are different variations on that scenario where both enter a discounting war and store A sells the lens for $1400 and makes say $200 and Store B would like to match the price but the lens cost them $1450? If you are Store B, do you sell at a loss and how long can you endure that?

That’s the best advice that I can offer and it applies to any business venture. You are under no obligation to take my advice.

Excellent advice, and coincidentally I do a presentation with a similar hypothetical scenario.

My scenario was very similar.

Which is dont just produce a charge based on what your competition is charging, because if it costs you to work, then you are definitely going to lose money.

My personal experience is that many start photographic businesses with absolutely no research into viable business plans, and instead "check" what photographers are apparently charging, and then "produce" their charges based on offering a lower rate. Guaranteed fail.

[ricktas]

I thought thats what we were talking about as well ?

Because outsourcing is a very important part of pricing your wedding photography. And while the OP hasnt returned with a response, the discussion that evolved (important word that) is surely helpful to both viewers and discussion participants. My apologies, I dont want to question your judgement, but the issues are very much related.



Agree. but there are 22 posts in this thread (out of 40 replies at this time) that are about outsourcing. I think the outsourcing issue had become THE topic in this thread for a while, rather than one aspect of pricing your photography. My notice was trying to get some balance back into the thread.

[William W]

Why are some wedding photographers able to charge $10,000 and more for a one-day job using a single shooter while other’s struggle to command $1,500?

There are many aspects, but significantly -
Specifically, for Wedding and Portrait Photography: because, in all cases of which I am aware, the former has:
 Product Branding
 Service Branding
 Principal Branding
And, then employs a strategic, targeted, multi-channelled, content aligned, repetitive marketing for each of those three Brandings.

On the other hand, I have noticed often, the latter, at the most, makes a website and then fails within about six months to update it.

All of the elements listed above which the former employs are real costs, to the business.

WW

[William W]

Store B has a low turnover and consequently has a much smaller discount from the rrp on the stock they buy.
They pay the same rent; have the same number of staff and other expenses.
Store A can sell you that wonderful 10-200mm f/2* ultra zoom for $1500 because they have priced their stuff at cost plus.
Store B can sell you that wonderful 10-200mm f/2 ultra zoom for $1900 because they have priced their stuff at cost plus.
Where are you going to buy that lens?

Specifically for selling the exact same “widget” from a bricks and mortar store, in direct competition to another bricks and mortar store next door:
The answer is – “it depends”.

It is possible to sell exact same widgets at a reasonable price above the competition, not enter a discount war with another B&M store and still make a profit.

There are many elements to it, and too many to list without moving off topic, but suffice to say:

on topic - there are indeed some Wedding Photographers whose business is set up to sell widgets: very often that is by accident and not design.

However, I have noticed that those who do purposefully set up their Wedding Photography Business to sell widgets, are very good at it and are more than not are also priced just reasonably above the masses of others, who sell Widget Wedding Photography, who didn’t plan their business that way, but rather just winged it and it happened so to be.

WW

[Longshots]

Why are some wedding photographers able to charge $10,000 and more for a one-day job using a single shooter while other’s struggle to command $1,500?

Sorry Peter, but shooting and providing a product where the fee is in the region you quoted is simply not a "one-day job".

Its that very big misunderstanding of the genre that effects in a negative manner those entering or considering entering the market.

[JM Tran]

if only weddings were an actual 'one day job', I'd have so much more free time:D

[peterb666]

Sorry Peter, but shooting and providing a product where the fee is in the region you quoted is simply not a "one-day job".

The reference to the time period was of course to the wedding day. No need to play games with semantics.

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[peterb666]

Very few clients would give a stuff about your costs. The client is far more likely to be concerned about getting perceived value for money for a service and product at a desired level of quality that they want.

The cost of providing that service isn't their problem.

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[William W]

I agree that clients will not really care two hoots about my costs.

Taking ALL my costs into consideration, when establishing my Pricing, is NOT basing pricing SOLELY on costs – but rather just ensuring that at least a gross profit will be above my break-even point.

I haven’t noticed in the thread, that there is a die-hard camp suggesting that pricing is based SOLELY on costs: maybe I missed it?

WW

[jasevk]

Why are some wedding photographers able to charge $10,000 and more for a one-day job using a single shooter while other’s struggle to command $1,500?


Why can some attract $10,000? Because some wedding photographers may have many more costs like large studio/base/offices, accountants, anything up to several hundreds of thousands of $ worth of gear to insure, retouchers/receptionists/sales people/album designers to pay plus secondary costs related to them (work cover, super etc), printers, servers etc etc etc etc.

These photographers would obviously be reaping the benefits of their reputations, but I can guarantee most, if not all, would know exactly what their costs are.

Then again, maybe they don't have these additional costs, and they're simply exceptional sales people... But they would still understand their costs and see them as the base for their pricing considerations

[ricktas]

Why can some attract $10,000? Because some wedding photographers may have many more costs like large studio/base/offices, accountants, anything up to several hundreds of thousands of $ worth of gear to insure, retouchers/receptionists/sales people/album designers to pay plus secondary costs related to them (work cover, super etc), printers, servers etc etc etc etc.

These photographers would obviously be reaping the benefits of their reputations, but I can guarantee most, if not all, would know exactly what their costs are.

Then again, maybe they don't have these additional costs, and they're simply exceptional sales people... But they would still understand their costs and see them as the base for their pricing considerations

Agree, and I would say also one work MARKETING. When I lived in the UK, one of my friends/acquantances managed to get a low level royal wedding, as the photographer. He used that to market to other 'well to do' familes and now shoots exclusively for the upper classes for serious $$. Does he shoot better than a $1500 photographer, probably not. It is all about opportunities and marketing.

[reaction]

I think, when talking about amateur wedding photography, price has nothing at all to do with skill, cost, or anything else. It's just a random amount from a couple hundred to maybe 1k depending on how much the amateur can convince the B&G to pay. We've seen enough weddings shot for a couple hundred by a person who bought their DSLR kit a month ago and also amateurs with N-years experience who don't feel they can charge yet.

In fact I've seen some pros talk in their 'about' page about how they did their 1st job with absolutely no experience with a camera. I think it's all random. :lol2:

[William W]

. . . We've seen enough weddings shot for a couple hundred by a person who bought their DSLR kit a month ago and also amateurs with N-years experience who don't feel they can charge yet.

In fact I've seen some pros talk in their 'about' page about how they did their 1st job with absolutely no experience with a camera. I think it's all random. :lol2:

Then kudos to the OP for coming here and asking for assistance in how to price her packages and also for her seeking assistance from fellow Wedding and Portrait photographers for more general ideas about setting up a W&P business.

WW

[Longshots]

The reference to the time period was of course to the wedding day. No need to play games with semantics.

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Actually I wasnt being pedantic. The assumption that the wedding photographers work is all done on the day is a common misconception. And the real hours spent would be many days by some photographers on each wedding.

And to respond also to your second comment about the customers not giving two hoots about the photographers costs - couldnt agree with you more. But this topic is all about giving photographers advice on how to asses their costs. So on that we agreee.

This is a topic about "how much should I charge", the most common question.

So the point is all about what costs to take into account before you can draw up a model of charges.

[peterb666]

This is a topic about "how much should I charge", the most common question.


Well to put it in the same simple terms - "Charge what your client thinks you are worth".

[peterb666]

I should add there is a little formula in its most pure form would be

"Charge what your client thinks you are worth" - costs > 0 = think about being a wedding photographer

"Charge what your client thinks you are worth" - costs < 0 = stick to the day job.

That's how costs come into the equation.

[Longshots]

Well to put it in the same simple terms - "Charge what your client thinks you are worth".

On so many levels I agree with you Peter, the trouble is that clients have a much lower value on photography then was considered just a few years ago. And the real problem has become that client understanding of worth is below a sustainable rate, and I dont mean someone thats decided to rely on photography as full time profession, but also include any professional supply service. So its really important for even the part timers to include important costs such as basic public liability insurance - so they dont lose the family home if some guest tries to blame their drunken stumble on the poor placement of the photographers tripod or bag.

[jeffde]

For me a wedding is about 1- 1/2 weeks - when you factor in meetings with the clients, a pre shoot, post processing - scouting the venue's, travel etc - time spent on phone email etc.
Some may spend more time - some less - but that's how i've structured my fee's -
Weddings return less per hour than portrait shoots or other work - but i like them and they keep you on your toe's - but do i want to do 50 weddings a year - NO

[Dan Cripps]

Interestingly, even some high-profile photographers, such as Jasmine Star (http://www.jasminestarblog.com/), outsource their post-processing.
Jasmine uses Photographer's Edit (http://www.photographersedit.com/index.html), who charge upto a few hundred dollars to post-process a set of wedding photos. According to this post (http://www.jasminestarblog.com/index.cfm?postID=850&faq), it looks like Jasmine does some culling and initial processing in LightRoom, then uses Photographer's Edit to create the final result, with the photos being turned around by them in less than 7 business days

To be fair, anything Jasmine Star recommends would have comercial value to her. I'm not even sure how much of an active photographer she is these days, which renders whatever workflow she might preach somewhat irrelevant.

You're better off getting advice from a low profile photographer who is churning through 40-50 weddings a year, rather than a glorified blogger who gets kickbacks for every recommendation.

[William W]

The DEFINITION of Jasmine Star's Business, I doubt is anywhere near the same Definition of most Wedding Photographers’ businesses.

This is one reason why it is important to: Define the Business, which one wants to build.

WW

[reaction]

Not wanting to get off topic, but who is Jasmine Star and why is she important?

[Dan Cripps]

Not wanting to get off topic, but who is Jasmine Star and why is she important?

She's a girl who blogs/teaches/promotes wedding photography and occasionally shoots one herself.

[peterb666]

To be fair, anything Jasmine Star recommends would have comercial value to her.

The work practices quoted are essentially the same as those used by my niece. My niece does about 35 shoots a year and has been a professional wedding photographer for 10 years. The vast majority of her work is wedding photography, supplimented with a bit of other photography & related income.

Outsourcing seems more prevelant at the top end of the market where the photographer's shooting, organisational and marketing time required to bring in work has a higher relative value. When dealing in a volume situation, outsourcing seems to make sense.

At the lower end of the market where the work is leaner in volume and $$$, then as much as possible needs to stay "in house" to minimise costs and make the business viable. Common sense.

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[reaction]

Common sense.

I am not so sure. That PS service from what I could glean only does WB fixing, crop, lighting.
That doesn't really sound like much, WB sure, but whose judgement on crop & lighting? High key or low key? What about all those fake flares, fake yellow/pink hues, selective coloring, the ubiquitous vignette that plagues all wedding albums? Skin smoothing, fake texture enhancements, fake sky, etc?

They won't and can't do any of these, so in the end your high end tog either goes generic (not a bad thing imho, fake looks too fake to me) or does these effects themselves anyway.

[beau]

The original post in this thread is a common source of despair for those who actually try to make some money out of shooting weddings. I'm charging a bit under $2k to shoot the entire day and supply processed images on disc. Based on that I can make money, but you're not getting rich. Sell some albums and prints and it helps, but ultimately there are a lot of togs out there that charge a lot more than me. My costs are low (home office, not much advertising and do my own processing) but I really couldn't do it any cheaper than that and have it be a worthwhile venture.

I am often confronted with clients who have a price from someone who reckons they can do it all for $800. I have no idea how these people make money, other than perhaps just shooting jpegs straight out of the camera and not spending any time processing.

Trouble is they just give the whole industry a bad name.

[kiwi]

The point there though is that the people charging 500 or 800 or whatever aren't trying to run a p&l so whether they are in a business sense making a profit is irrelevant

They've now got $800 in their pocket that they didn't have yesterday. That's about it.

[beau]

Very true, and good luck to them. I just don't know how you make it worthwhile when you generally leave home before 9am (after prepping your gear the night before) and don't get home until after midnight, so you've already done at least 14 hours work, and then you need to do at least a couple of hours PP, so at best you're getting less than $40ph.

But then I've also seen some places that advertise a price like $800, but then they charge for extras (like actually covering the reception!) and it ends up closer to $2k anyway.

[kiwi]

Hmm tell you what

Put an advertisement on AP or any similar site and say I'll pay you $800 for 14 hours work and you'll be flooded

It's still $800 more than what youd get sitting on your Heiny watching oprah or playing FarmVille

What happens though you do a few, maybe 12, then you realise that you're pricing is just not worth it

[Wayne]

Hmm tell you what

Put an advertisement on AP or any similar site and say I'll pay you $800 for 14 hours work and you'll be flooded

It's still $800 more than what youd get sitting on your Heiny watching oprah or playing FarmVille

What happens though you do a few, maybe 12, then you realise that you're pricing is just not worth it

Or like a couple of guys I know, you work Ft elsewhere and earn a good living. Sitting on your butt at home on the weekend, or spending the day at the pub earns zip/costs you money. You are not an expert with a camera and the PP, but not terrible either, so you do shoot n burn weddings for $1K. You spend 10-15 hours preparing, shooting, editing and then burn the files to disc and hand them over. You have produced an income of $66-100/hr with virtually zero outlay, and that is far more than most people earn in their FT jobs, and not a bad cash earn for 2 standard days work.

Have you made a profit? Hell yes, but not in the true business sense as you havent factored costs, but as Kiwi says, you now have $1K in your skyrocket that you didn't have yesterday. Is it sustainable? Could be, these 2 blokes have been at it for a while...

These days there are lots of people having weddings who for whatever reason can't afford to or don't want to spend alot of $$ on their wedding photography, and the market for shoot n burn is alive and well. Equally, there are cheap photographers ready and willing to shoot n burn for what could be seen as pittance in the wedding photography industry.

[kiwi]

Exactly

So there's in my mind three areas here to consider

A) those that charge little as they deliver little, don't know better, don't care and are often NTP

B) those that charge a bit more but just see it as a cash increment to another ft income

C) those that have to charge an appropriate amount due to the need to make a living

[William W]

Trouble is they (those who charge only $800) just give the whole industry a bad name.


No, "they" do not.



"they" (those who charge $800 for a Wedding Coverage), do not give the industry a bad name.
Inferior quality practitioners give the industry a bad name.
Rude photographers give the industry a bad name.
And also what gives quality and professional wedding and portraiture a bad name, are the clients who use the services of substandard practitioners and then complain later about the industry as a whole and further do not understand that "they", (the Clients) had the ultimate responsibility to research and assess accurately, exactly what the would be the quality of goods and services, "they" were buying.

WW

[beau]

Yes, I agree William. I was generalising a little too much.

I am yet to see much in the way of good quality images from the cheapie togs though. Doesn't mean there are none... I just haven't seen any. Nice snapshots, that's about it.

[William W]

Certainly.
But I do not think it was a generalization: but rather the wrong end of the stick

Price is only one indicator of the quality of service and of product: but I was careful not to make a link that low price equals poor quality.



More importantly:
Even if (hypothetically) all $800 shooters produce poor quality images: "they" do not give the W&P industry a bad name, which was my point.

There are poor bakers, and also poor chefs . . .
and bread shops and restaurants go out of business . . . daily . . .
The poor or ill experienced artists selling their wares and services, don’t give anyone a bad name: save sometimes themselves and that is usually only if they are not forthright with their initial claims.
There is room for all, including those learning and charging a fee commensurate with same.



WW

[Sobriquet]

Do you have public liability insurance? No..there goes your $200.00 and more that you planned to charge for your first wedding. Guess what..a guest at the wedding trips over your gear bag, breaks a leg, cannot work and sues you for $40K...business gone.

Wow, where are you getting public liability insurance for $200?

[jasevk]

Wow, where are you getting public liability insurance for $200?

I believe the comment was "$200 and more".

[ricktas]

Wow, where are you getting public liability insurance for $200?

The $200 came from a previous post, about charging $200 for a wedding. And as per Jase's reply, it was $200 and more. My point was that insurance alone costs more than the amount being charged.