How important is it to have photoshop or similar for a beginner?

[Andrea1]

Hi Guys,

It seems that everywhere i read everyone has photoshop or something similar and just as expensive!

Is it almost unheard of to not post process photos everytime? I do want to get it one day but not just yet as i don't have a spare zillion dollars just hanging around.

What are your thoughts?

Andrea

[Art Vandelay]

No real need to straight away. Best off sticking to the software that came with your camera. LAter on if you find it limiting or want to do different adjustments to your photos that it can't do then it maybe time look around at upgrading it.

[Andrea1]

Thanks for the reply, that would be an option if i still had the software the camera came with:o

I've been using picassa which is ok but obviously it's quite limited.

[Harves]

Aside from your camera gear, good image editing software is the next best investment you can make, without it you will possibly struggle to bring out the best of your work. You can pick up a copy of Adobe Photoshop Elements for maybe less that $200, which is more that adequate for editing your work. Elements is a lower cost version of Photoshop. Hope this helps.

[Andrea1]

Thanks Harves (i love that name, it's almost my sons name)

I have heard of elements and did consider but after doing some research it seems that the other version is necessary if you want to purchase actions.
There is a photographer that runs workshops and sells her actions but it is only usable if you have photoshop cs-cs5.

That's what got me thinking about this as i do want to get the best out of my pics.
I guess i'll start saving!

[Harves]

Not sure about the compatability of actions, I don't see why they couldn't be used with Elements as it's the same product, just doesn't have all the finer adjustments as CS5. I got by OK for years with Elements, I only stepped up to CS4 because I bought a copy on ebay quite cheap, otherwise I would still be on elements.

PS. just hit the post button once, don't go back a page to edit your post, that's why you have a double post,
you can edit it by clicking on the edit button. Cheers

[tanz]

I started out with Picasa and have been using Elements for about 1 year now. It was really easy to learn and I have been very happy with it. I am going to try Lightroom 3 soon just to see what everyone keeps raving about. You can download a trial version of any of them which lasts 30 days to give yourself some time to play and see which one you want.

[Andrea1]

Thanks Tania i will download elements this weekend and see how i go.

[ScottM]

GIMP is also free and does virtually everything PS will. There's a wealth of plug-ins and tutorials available for it too, and I think even PS-plugin compatibility available.

Don't feel like you need to have great PP skills or software to begin with though :)

[Andrea1]

So does this mean that you would not recommend that i shoot in RAW until i have elements PS or similar?

[ScottM]

Neither a definite yes or no here :)

There are a few software tools that convert RAW to other formats or allow direct editing of the RAW file.

A RAW file uses quite a bit more memory on the card in your camera, but should never be the sole location for your images for long. There's no harm in switching RAW+JPEG on for a session then trying a free RAW converter/editor.

IrfanView is another free application that allows RAW conversions and editing.
Then there's RawTherapee, UFRaw, Able RAWer and others for conversion, all free. All RAW processing does take a bit of practise to get the settings right.

If there's no cost, you have the time and can download, why not give one of them a try? :)

[Speedway]

I have been using Elements 5 for nearly 5 years now and find it does everything that I want, Elements is just a cutdown version of the full Photoshop program with more than enough features to keep you learning for quite a few years and at a fraction of the price. I have just downloaded a trial of Elements 10 and for basic editing there is not much difference but I have yet to go exploring some of the newer bits since version 5.
Starting with elements makes sense as the layout is very similar to the full version making the transition to the full version easier if you decide to go that way in the future.
Keith.

[Kym]

Post Processing is part of the photographic process.

Film: 1. Take Photo... 2. Develop... 3. Print process in Darkroom
Digital: 1. Take Photo... 2. Convert from raw, Post Process... 3. Web publish or Print

In digital step 2 can be done in the Camera (in a limited form) or you can take creative control.
For film step 2 can also be done by your photo processor company or yourself.

In the short term use the free software that came with your camera, or other free software.

[ricktas]

So does this mean that you would not recommend that i shoot in RAW until i have elements PS or similar?

You will need either the software that came with your camera, elements, lightroom, photoshop etc (at least one good editing package) if you wish to shoot RAW. RAW files cannot be simply viewed and edited like JPG can. RAW needs an extra couple of steps.

http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?15590-Raw-Processing-Tutorial

As a beginner I would recommend Elements or Lightroom, as a starting point, as they are no where near the cost of Photoshop, and these days have most of the functionality. There are also good tutorials available on youtube for all three.

[fess67]

Elements $100, Lightroom3 $300 (although I am sure you can get deals somewhere)

If your budget can go to it, get Lightroom. From what I read many pros are using it and reviews are very good. remember that $300 is spread over x number of years or y number of images......works out pretty cheap when you think of it in those terms and as has been said above, you will need something to make the best of your captures. It is not cheating, it is an alternative way of processing your images, as stated by Kym. In the 'old' days this was done in a darkroom, now it is done in software. Let me give you an example. I have only ever won one competition. It was on here with the following picture. I am posting up the before and after. Total processing in photoshop was 5 minutes (and I am a complete novice)...just shows what lurks within your images :) IMO, go buy processing software, it is easily as valuable as a new lens.

Before

http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/vv199/fess67/Birds/IMG_4570_SOOC.jpg

Processed....remember this is 5 mins of processing. Crop, Sharpen, Clip blacks. that is it.

http://fess67.smugmug.com/Animals/Animals/IMG4570spoonbillfulsize/656305891_mFNCi-L.jpg

This shows the power of processing.

ps you will never look back once you start :D

[Andrea1]

Wow! Fess that's fabulous what you did with that photo, thanks for sharing.

Thanks to everyone else too, i'm about to download something now.
I might try both lightroom and elements, not at the same time though as i will overwhelm myself.

[Andrea1]

Good grief! I'm down loading elements now and it says it's going to take 7 hours!
Must be some amazing program!

[Lucky23]

When i first got into photography i also came across this dilemma too. The main reason why i held off getting photoshop (apart from the $$'s) was because of what one of the other guys on the forum had mentioned. Which was basically that it's best to learn to get your perfect shot within the camera first as oppose to relying on PS and pp.

As i was/am a beginner, this was advice that helped a lot. But, of course there are plenty of alternatives to PS, as mentioned above, you could play around with before shelling out the big bucks for PS.

[ricktas]

When i first got into photography i also came across this dilemma too. The main reason why i held off getting photoshop (apart from the $$'s) was because of what one of the other guys on the forum had mentioned. Which was basically that it's best to learn to get your perfect shot within the camera first as oppose to relying on PS and PP.

This is a good reply.

Do not rely on editing to make your photos good. A well taken ( in focus, well composed, sharp photo that has used the right shutter speed, ISO and aperture) will always be a better starting point than trying to use editing to fix a blurry, grainy, over exposed, badly composed photo anyway. So yes, come to grips with PP (post processing) but also learn your skills as a photographer. After all you bought a camera to be a photographer, not sit in front of a computer doing digital art.

Take great photos and learn how to enhance them with PP, not take mediocre photos and spend hours trying to fix them in PP.

Learn slowly. Some basics that should give you good processing, and as a photographer, will give you most of what you need to learn:

* how to open, close, save in different file formats and what the benefits/disadvantages of each format is ( jpg, tiff, psd, bmp, gif etc).
* how to crop.
* how to do a levels adjustment
* how to increase/decrease saturation.
* how to make selections and work within them.
* how to straighten ( good for when your photo wasn't taken level, and the horizon or buildings are leaning).
* how to sharpen.

Learning the above, you will be able to improve your already well taken photos. Do not try and learn everything elements or lightroom has to offer. I have been using photoshop for over 10 years, and the above is about all I use on most of my photos. There are many menu items I have never even tried. So don't try and learn it all, cause you don't need to.

And if you get stuck, check out the tutorials forum here on AP, use You Tube, or just create a thread and ask..how do I...there is no better pleasure than helping a fellow AP member, and seeing them learn, and come back and say WOW, thank you! And then show us what they achieved from what the learnt right here on the site.

[Andrea1]

One more thing came to mind, sorry!

To shoot in RAW do i need to have the software that came with my camera (canon350D)? Hope the answer is no as i don't have it!

[Kym]

One more thing came to mind, sorry!

To shoot in RAW do i need to have the software that came with my camera (canon350D)? Hope the answer is no as i don't have it!

No problems... No you don't need the camera software, you do need something! Lightroom or elements (via Adobe Camera Raw) will do it. Also Picasa (free) from Google.

[fess67]

Just remember when you shoot in RAW nothing is done to the image in camera. It is an accurate representation of what the camera saw when you pressed the button. If you shoot in JPG the camera takes what it saw and applies some adjustments based on whatever settings are in the camera and discards information not required to produce the final image. RAW discards nothing but it applies nothing either. It is important to remember this the first few times you look at your RAW files because they may seem dull or soft. You need to sharpen the image and apply slight adjustments to begin to bring out the beauty of whatever you saw that made you take the shot :)

2 hobbies in 1...gotta love it :D

[verfnew]

I have seen elements 10 advertised for between $135 and $150. I agree with the poster who said that you needed something.
Vern

[nuoz]

We bought Elements 7 on E-Bay it is very good, not tooo complicated for a novice couple like my husband and myself... Saw on EBay Elements 10 cheaper price. I would never go to a store as you pay loads more. As Ricktas says what he uses is what we have learnt ourselves and it really is all you need. Maybe is there someone that would like one to, so you could half the cost and share. (just an idea)
I just wish I could use the straightening tool in Elements easier ....:D
cheers, Rosemary

[chris_m]

Another very good and free PC based application is Faststone. It does most of the basic editing functions very well and has a very nice batch editing process as well. It will take you about 5-10 minutes to pick up the basics.

[Andrea1]

Mmmm PS elements has been downloaded and i'm slowly learning how to use it.

When editing photos do you edit them to a standard that appeals to you rather than a "correct'' way?

[fess67]

I think go for your own appeal. If it is waaaaaaayyyyy out there people will offer advice but look around the *net. You will find so many styles and preferences.

Let me put it this way.....Picasso.......IMO what a waste of talent. I really do not like his work, maybe 2 or 3 pictures were ok. Hmmmm look at that, I just bagged out an artist that is very highly thought of!!! That's ok, it is just not my stlye.

John Constable....OMG what a talent.....hehe, see that I my taste so I think he was good.

I walked around an exhibition today. Most of the works were not to my taste. Some were (IMO) absolute crap!! Tell me how they managed to secure $15000 grants!!!

I dunno, go for it, have a bash, find your own stlye. Who knows, you may be a headliner waiting to be discovered.

I think that is the beauty of photography. There are rules....but they are there to be broken, go break them and show the world how you see it. You may get slammed or you may get a surprise. Game on :D

[photonet]

I started with Elements and still go back to using it for certain things as it is simple to use. Unfortunatley I am also naive enough to believe that the pictures straight from my camera should be perfect so am often disappointed.
Elements is a great product. I have also tried Gimp which is sposed to be every bit as good as PS but the learning curve was too steep for me.

[arthurking83]

.... or something similar and just as expensive!

.....

Define expensive.

I got (for Nikon) the update to CaptureNX2(from CNX1) for about $100, retail boxed with the CD and I thought that this was expensive!! :eek:

Lightroom is ok, but I still think is expensive, but you get a organisational tool(cataloguing software) in the software too.

If you're careful and can get the most important basics right on in camera, you can get away with free software(eg your camera manufacturers software).

If you shoot raw, you must process the images to get generally usable files, as most folks won't have the ability to view raw images natively, and they may not be viewable over the internet either.
So for display purposes a raw file must be processed into a viewable image anyhow. In that, you are correct.
But your comment that it's unheard of not to post process an image is not correct. It's just that 99.99999% of people choose to do so.
The camera has an ability to process an image for you, and if you understand this ability, then PP is much easier to do.

As your camera is a Canon, I'd still recommend that you download and install the Canon software called DPP.
Keep this one up to date too. It's free.
It's almost certainly the better raw file(to image file) converter too.

but this is just a guess, as I only work in Nikon files, and have no experience with Canon raw files. I did once get given a series of Canon raw images by someone and played around with DPP and it looked to be ok. This was many years back and it worked and felt a lot like Nikon's equivalent .. in price as well as features .. ViewNX which is the free Nikon raw file converter.

One thing that adobe and any other software have never impressed me with is their ability to convert and render the resultant raw file as well as the manufacturers software(in my case Nikon). But the ability to 'edit' an image is far superior.

One other 'image editor' you may want to have a look at, is a program called FSViewer.

You said before that it was taking 7 hours to download Elements, and that's not because it's an 'amazing program', but more so because it's basically bloated with stuff that you may well never ever use.
FSViewer by comparison may take 5 - 10 mins(it's only 4 Mb!! :th3:), can also be run from a portable USB thumb drive if you need it too(but you need to download a special version of it) and has some OK image editing tool available.

One thing I'd really recommend for you not to do is to get involved with actions.. or more accurately other people's actions.
This is only for the purpose of individuality, or creating your own look in your own way or style.
Far too many so called professional photographers use available actions, which basically dilutes the gene pool of photographic ability.
In effect all you're doing is not processing the image yourself, but getting someone else to do it for you in an automated manner.
I'm not saying don't use actions, but instead of using canned actions to achieve a desired look, build your own actions instead.
If you have the time and patience learn, how to build your own actions by first learning the ability to edit more efficiently and then saving those edit steps as actions.

In CaptureNX2 we call them batch edits, where a series of steps is saved as a batch lot and applied to an image. This is different to batch processing where you collectively apply a series of edit steps to multiple images too, and batch edit steps can be applied to images in a batch process job. It kind of makes more sense to me this way as it really all falls under the same umbrella of multiple step processing in a single click.
Actions is simply another way to call batch processing and almost all other software has this ability. It's just that it's called something else.

Anyway, the most important thing to take note of, is that before you spend money on software that you may think you need .. it's to understand why you need this software.

If it's for the simple task of loading a series of batch edit steps that you liked the look of in someone else's images, then for that CS is by far the best way to go, due to it's popularity(more actions available for it).
But remember that all good software will have this ability too, it's just not as popular and hence harder to find those batch processes.
If you want the software for the purpose of learning to edit images, then in reality it makes no difference as to which software you decide to use, your ability to learn the nuances of the software is more important.

Oh! nearly forgot .. as well as the GIMP, there is also Paint.net that is also free and quite easy to use. That's Paint.net, not MS's paint which comes in Windows by default.

[Andrea1]

Thanks for the great advice arthurking.

This is my understanding of actions, please tell me if i'm on the right track.
Basically the ''recipe'''you used and have saved that give your pics a certain look????
That's my very simplistic explanation of what i think actions are.

I wouldn't even dream of attempting this for a long time!

[DoubleJ]

Hi All

Newbee here ... to ausPhoto and photography. Thanks for all the great posts, especially @fess67 that was super, and Rick the notes on Lightroom and Elements.

I'm just a dad taking family snaps, which at this stage is lots of sporting stuff.

Don't laugh but I have enjoyed iPhoto and making slideshows and books for Granddad. I mainly just crop and lift shadows etc as with kids and footballs and animals, I felt just getting something in the frame was a great achievement. And now this Canon EOS 550D camera I've had for a year has lifted the quality ... and quantity. I've one iPhoto library of 24,000, I guess you can guess what happened next.

So managing the library and a bit of cropping and shadows work etc is really all I'm up to at this stage. But seeing what fess did with the heron gets me dreaming.

Still I come away from a football game with 300 photos but I'm really running into issues about being able to just find the good ones. And it might not be a great shot but if it has managed to capture some kid's face with a halfway decent activity ie not missing a tackle, then the other parent may think it's great.

I went to a demo of Apple's Aperture and liked the management aspects (compared to iPhoto) and in the editing area being able to adjust areas within the photo seems just what I need. But the comments on Apple's review section leave one iffy. It's ~ $80 and integrates with iPhoto so I can still do the book making.

So my question, does any one have any suggestions re going the Aperture route (I use Apple machines having spent a career supporting Microsoft apps in engineering so please ... I just don't understand the Apple bashing craze at the moment). I looked at RAW but I just work in the jpg large it takes up too much space when content rather than quality is my objective (at this stage).

Anyway thanks in advance. JJ PS taking the footy photos helps me reduce my "encouragement" from the sidelines.

[soundfanz]

A good thread, and plenty for me to ponder as a relative newbie when it comes to photo editing and available software.

Chris

[Oceansailor]

Has anyone used Gimp or any of the free editing tools that can be downloaded off the web?

[WhoDo]

Has anyone used Gimp or any of the free editing tools that can be downloaded off the web?
Actually The GIMP is all I use for post-processing. Does everything I need and then some. I can thoroughly recommend it if you can't afford Elements or Lightroom. It can take some getting used to, but its biggest advantage is that it works in very similar ways to Photoshop, and many of PS' plug-ins have been ported to GIMP. There is even a program for GIMP that let's you run PS plug-ins directly (i.e. without any other coding or porting).

PS. Match GIMP with UfRaw plug-in and Faststone Viewer and you've got a complete workflow solution. Only restriction is you are limited to 8-bit colour unless you use GEGL and even then the output will still be 8-bit colour. Doesn't bother me though.

[ScottM]

Same here as WhoDo; had never heard of Faststone until a couple days ago but about to check it out...

[andrewda]

Hi Andrea, I have been using Lightroom for a couple of years now, this is great for cataloguing images and for making adjustments to images without too much training. There are also many sites that have free video tutorials for lightroom.

PS. I grew up in Vermont.

Regards, Andrew

[luepit]

Read throught all of this....THANK YOU TO EVERYONE FOR THEIR WISDOME AND EXPERIENCE....AND SHARING.

[ricktas]

So my question, does any one have any suggestions re going the Aperture route (I use Apple machines having spent a career supporting Microsoft apps in engineering so please ... I just don't understand the Apple bashing craze at the moment). I looked at RAW but I just work in the jpg large it takes up too much space when content rather than quality is my objective (at this stage).

Anyway thanks in advance. JJ PS taking the footy photos helps me reduce my "encouragement" from the sidelines.

Aperture is basically the Apple equivalent of Adobe's Lightroom. It is a good product and well worth considering as an alternative.

[ricktas]

For those starting out with post processing, this article I wrote quite some time ago, is worth reading and considering : http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?77740

[kmets]

Will definitely look at that article. I have Photoshop and have absolutely no clue how to do anything with it!

DoubleJ, been there, last season took hundreds of pics at football games. Some of them weren't great, but kids love seeing a pic of themselves making a tackle, catch, etc. So what I did was made a *removed, members with less than 50 posts cannot promote commercial enterprises* and posted all of them. I gave all the kids and parents the web address so they could all see them. Football pics are so fun to take!

[DoubleJ]

Thanks @ricktas for you note about Aperture

Thanks also to @kmets. I gather you were suggesting a website. Since my first post that is what I did.

I have been hesitant because of all the PC about taking photos of kids these days. I have almost none of my daughters netball (in comparison to footy) although you can shoot your brains out at rowing.

I've posted a selection of non personal photos for the event just using iWeb and then a full dump of all the photos in a 150 pixel thumbnail size so that folk could see without being able to do too much with the image ie the bad people. I'm testing this out to see just how much trouble I get in for doing even that. Any thoughts anyone or different topic ?

You're right @kmets the kids do enjoy seeing themselves in action but the photos could be so much more - they could be great training aids. To promote and congratulate good tackle technique etc. Some rowing ones seem, to my limited knowledge, to highlight technique issues which would be useful to discuss on land.

Anyway I've gone a bit OT but the thread was about Photoshop for beginners and I guess that Management for beginners to me is more important. Messing with film based shots I can see adjustment tools to be really advantageous but with digital, one can take so many that maybe for a beginner it should be more about camera technique. For instance aiming that little centre dot for focus and light metering …

Getting back to the need for a Photoshop or Aperture like product, the problem I have with software, and I think many posters mentioned it, was understanding or using enough of the product to warrant it. To me another app is just another set of maliciously organised menu options that I have to learn, apply and understand what they actually did.

I used to just import all the photos into one iPhoto library but now dump to a directory and then import to a designated iPhoto library as a means to limit the size of the libraries and have the originals separate. All to an external hard drive.

I imagine that this will get quite clunky too ie management wise does anyone have any thoughts ?

Thanks JJ

PS added (I think) an image about rowing technique and used the few tools that I seem to need at this stage eg cropping and B&W to protect the guilty.

[ashleyf]

LIGHTROOM 3!!!!!!!!!!!! Bought it for $130 and it is just so nice and simple...for me anyway. I will get ps in awhile after i have lightroom sorted =)

[Oznut]

Hooly dooly, this is doing my head in. I haven't taken a photo in over 12 months and I've pretty much forgotten everything I knew before. RAW, no idea. PS, I've been using it for years for graphic work but only a tiny bit for photos. I just bought a new iMac and the software (although basic) that comes with it seems to work well for now. Any thoughts?

[rocklogic]

I started off with just the Olympus software and GIMP - but then I'd purchased a student copy of Photoshop through the uni I was doing a business degree at (go figure!)

I'd started using Aperture for the past year or so now, and I can't believe life without it. I'm a RAW convert, and there's so much that you can do post-process to make images look better through Aperture. But it does take a LOT of time. I just came back from a three-week long trip to London and Manchester, and I'm sitting at around 2000+ photos :eek: - most will never see the light of day, but still the thought of doing the processing kills me

[mongo]

Mongo basically only uses PS. However, to your question, Mongo will say neither yes or no. There are many programs that do the job ; especially in the early simpler days of post processing until you outgrow those programs.

Mongo will say this - you do NOT need the latest version of any of this stuff (although that may have its limitations eventually). Mongo went from Photoshop 5.5 to CS3 in one step when CS3 was no longer the current photoshop version. In other words, Mongo bought an out of date version (which does far more than he can ever hope to understand - let alone use) for under $200 and has no interest in updating it. It does him just fine !

[Tommo224]

My personal preference is Adobe Lightroom. I use it to do all my PP work! I don't touch Photoshop for image editing anymore, and have been using Lightroom exclusively on my photo projects :)

Some of my other friends are the same. Only one of them uses both Lightroom and Photoshop (does lots of different editing styles).

I love Lightroom 3! :) <3

[clcapope]

I know this is some months after the original post but I am only just getting back into AP. Just recently I looked into purchasing Photoshop after having used Elements for about 2 years and found that I could subscribe (go to Adobe) to CS 5 on a monthly basis or for a 1 year commitment subscribe for a lower monthly cost, which I have done. It is an amount I can budget for each month and it is considerably cheaper than the upfront total cost for buying the software.

I am still learning how to use the features and it can be really interesting what you can do but I must say I am more for learning how to use my camera properly and getting good results than playing around with software - I worked with software for over 20 years and it still seems like work !
Forever learning