Why don't you post any (more) pictures ?

[kiwi]

After responding with info for another member who has plenty of posts, but not one single picture I thought it might be useful to understand why people do not post any or many pictures to what is essentially a photography centric forum ?

[mrDooba]

I don't post many photos anymore because I receive very little criticism. (that was the whole reason for me posting)

[kiwi]

Looking at your past threads you seem to receive Forum average response, roughly one post for very 20 views

[ricktas]

Will be an interesting poll I feel. If anyone has suggestions (MrDooba), on how we can improve that, let me know. Maybe we need to run another 'best critique of the month'?. Other ideas will be considered. After all, critique is something members need to do to each other, not something I, or the moderators can make people do.

[Russell K]

Mr Dooba you obviously never had Kiwi post cc on one of your threads (no ofrfence meant Kiwi).

Russell K

[mrDooba]

Perhaps the BCOTM would be a nice regular feature. But I guess that means more work for the(already hard working) admin crew.

I know there are some members who consistently offer critical analysis of photos but I guess some people just don't really feel comfortable or confident offering their critical opinion on other people's work. Perhaps some people are unsure of how it will be received by the photographer.

[mrDooba]

Mr Dooba you obviously never had Kiwi post cc on one of your threads (no ofrfence meant Kiwi).

Russell K

I can't recall receiving a comment from Darren but I have seen his comments(relating to photos) throughout the site.

Kiwi is comfortable giving his view on a piece of work.

[Tannin]

I don't post many photos anymore because I receive very little criticism. (that was the whole reason for me posting)

^ What is there to criticise about your pictures, Chris? In your own words, "Very little". You have gone past the stage where a lot of CC can do much for your photography. (At least so far as your birds go.)

[Xenedis]

My view is that people don't post images much (if at all) for any or a combination of the following reasons:


they're intimidated by some of the images visible on this site;
they don't feel their images meet some perceived standard;
they've posted before and received little, unhelpful or no critique; or
they're here for other reasons (eg, sharing knowledge, answering questions, etc.).


While the solicitation or provision of critique is to be encouraged, some people simply won't feel comfortable doing either or both.

[porsche 911]

I like the reward system, the more posts that you put out there the more of the site's fun parts you can access, may be a critic counter with benefits might work. Think outside the box as this is what makes this website so much fun. Just a quick idea what if for every 25 cc counts you get to use the HC (Hard core critic smiley) This could then be sent to selected members probably those whom identify them selves as advanced.

[mrDooba]

Yes Tony I am very serious about my bird photography but I am also still learning(and I say that with absolute sincerity).
My photos are picked to shreds on bird specific forums. The competition is fierce!! I'm always amazed at what other bird focussed photographers will see and offer advice or just opinions on. Receiving this criticism makes my work stronger and trains my eye to notice subtle aspects that could be changed for the better.

I might add that looking and commenting on other's work in a very critical manner also strengthens my work

[Tannin]

For my own part, I don't post a lot of pictures here because:

I have a website which is the primary place from which I share pictures
because my bird work is reasonably well-known here and there isn't a lot to add to that unless I develop a new skill or a new way of conceptualising what it is that makes a good bird picture (there is no great point in just adding more different species, though that can be fun from time to time)
because if my eye isn't good enough to know what is good and not so good about a bird picture by now then it never will be and there is no point in soliciting CC
because my landscapes sometimes go straight through to the keeper with little more that a "nice shot" or two'
because about every second landscape I post elicits a really thought-provoking response from someone (Dtoh and Ricktas both come to mind immediately in this connection, though they are by no means the only ones) and I need time to let that soak in and percolate its way into my work (what is the point of good CC if you read it and say "OK, good point" and then forget about it?). There is no point in posting more before I've got my mind properly around the last couple.
because I often learn more from commenting on other people's pictures. Sounds silly but it's true! To comment well, I am forced to think, forced to verbalise and justify my visual instincts, forced to be more disciplined and incisive in the way I look at your pictures, and that flows over into my pictures
Probably other reasons that I forget just now.
Because I'm too busy writing down a list of the reasons why I don't post many pictures!

[kiwi]

People don't post pics, people don't post critique, I get that. I do. But the lifeblood of a forum are pictures, not discussions about carbon tax or gear etc.

Sometimes yes, you get to a point where you might not get a lot of critique or comments as you post excellent photos, but surely you get lots of admiration and people who aspire to achieve the same results.

[old dog]

a very interesting view from you guys. For my part, I just want to learn and most of all to have a good time doing it...having fun. One can`t lose sight of that :)

[Xenedis]

I like the reward system, the more posts that you put out there the more of the site's fun parts you can access

Personally I'm not keen on the use of a reward system for offering critiques, as it's open to abuse; ie, people could post critiques (of varying or even NO quality) to gain points.

For my liking, I post critiques because I have something to offer. It's not about rewards for me. If someone gains something useful from what I have to say, then that's my reward.

I'm a firm believer in quality over quantity. I'd rather read a dozen insightful critiques than scores of "nice shot" posts or otherwise useless critiques. Of course, we all like to hear that we have produced a nice shot, but informed critique is ultimately more useful than an ego boost.

[kiwi]

Nice shot comments are better than zippo.

[Xenedis]

because I often learn more from commenting on other people's pictures. Sounds silly but it's true! To comment well, I am forced to think, forced to verbalise and justify my visual instincts, forced to be more disciplined and incisive in the way I look at your pictures, and that flows over into my pictures

That's very true. Analysis of someone else's work can definitely help with your own.

You may instinctively know what makes an image work or what makes it appealing, but there's more to be learned (both as the giver and recipient of critique) by analysing an image and verbalising its strengths and weaknesses.

Listening to judge commentary also has the same effect (on me, anyway).

[Xebadir]

I'm going to post a bit of C&C in here. Recent. I decided to post some comments on a photo:
Me:
"Sorry, not a fan. While I agree the tree is great for masking the buildings (though still a little visible through the tree though) it dominates the frame such that I get the feel it is a shot of the tree as opposed to being a sunset shot of Uluru. By the same token the washed out feel to the rock unfortunately is overpowered by the relatively saturated foreground, and without the colour in the sky or the rock my eye is drawn straight back to the tree. Where it makes it hard is the length of exposure (due to the relatively small apeture) has meant you have seen a bit of movement in the tips of the tree as well, meaning its going to hard to have it as a tree with Uluru in the background either. My personal suggestion would be trying a B+W conversion and seeing if you can make more of the available subject matter with the obvious lighting contrasts. If that doesn't give something a little more pleasing I am at a loss as to an approach to fixing it."

Other
"What Xeb says is technically correct, I suppose, BUT (and I sometimes BUT in) I like the resulting colours and applaud your effort in presenting an somewhat problematic subject. You went, you saw, you took. Good for that."

Now the image that was the subject isn't important, but heres my point: its those other type comments that make me not bother tbh as I gain little from that, and I see the photographer gaining little from that, it doesn't tell them what went wrong, how it could be improved, or just a real opinion (which is what asking for a comment and critique is really about). I would prefer my photos were taken apart...there are a few members on here that I love the critiques of for this reason....the other thing I see in general is that composition is far from being a technical point IMHO...but it seems to be the one quantity people shy from critiquing...the list of listless panoramic and landscape images springs to mind.

Personally when I post images I generally do so to share them with forum members, and perhaps sometimes a few more boundary pushing images/experimentals which I think are worth getting critiqued. Perhaps I don't post enough images (I am generally a very harsh critique of my own work), but I generally try to offer C&C where possible.

[kiwi]

John, you often get a worm with an apple, but youll still eat the apple if you're hungry

[mrDooba]

John, you often get a worm with an apple, but youll still eat the apple if you're hungry

I ate a worm in an apple. I wasn't hungry after that ;)

[kiwi]

Point being that all one dan do is put stuff out there, both photos and critique and take the generally good with the often bad response

[MarkChap]

Probably a bit off topic, but John are you upset because someone had a different opinion of an image and how tp present their thoughts than what you had ??
I don't get the point of your post here.

Just because you gave a good and indepth critique as you saw it, doesn't make the other replies amy less relevant, or valuable.

[Xenedis]

(Removed; irrelevant.)

[GTP 290]

I don't post alot mainly because when I do get CC it's mainly about the technical aspect of the photo. I don't shoot to be technically perfect, I shoot for fun and to sell (and make a nice little profit when I do)

[Xenedis]

Point being that all one dan do is put stuff out there, both photos and critique and take the generally good with the often bad response

Absolutely. Some people unfortunately aren't comfortable with that.

[MarkChap]

Xenedis, I was refering to Xebadir's post

[ricstew]

Worms are full of protein :) I love CC.......if I didn't get any I wouldn't bother putting up anything......and I try really hard to give at least 3 serious critiques back for each I get......even if its only explaining why I like something. I do tend to put my troublesome stuff up that I want/need/require some other opinions for....dont know if thats a good thing or not....but I appreciate all the help I can get! lol
cheers
Jan

[Xenedis]

Xenedis, I was refering to Xebadir's post

Whoops. What are the chances that two people whose display names commence with "Xe" would share the same first name?

Better than average, apparently!

Apologies; I've retracted my previous post.

[Wandapics]

I have a slower ADSL conection. That combined with the slowness of the site at the moment means that it is best for me to wait to after the site fix. I have a few images to add then :)

[Xebadir]

Poor Xenedis. Clearly you will have to change your name :P.

Not at all Mark, wasn't my intention. I really couldn't care less...tbh I have better things to do with my time that critique but I offer it for the things this forum has offered me with no expectation of it being noticed or taken over any other. The point I was trying to make was what if these two critiques were made independently for that image...in isolation (rather than being posted as they were...I sort of didn't want to embelish too much the original content...realistically I could have chosen any two critiques here it was just easier to find an example this way)? What is the impact going to be from the photographers POV. Are you going to be encouraged to post more by someone who trys to help...or someone who says bravo for trying?

Where I see an issue is that its that sort of critique that as others have posted here is as useful as a *Nice Image*...sure getting that sort of feedback is nice but eventually I find it pointless. I guess its not the perfect example of what I was trying to illustrate. When an image lacks compostion, technical aspects (and I am not talking nit picking, I am talking significant issues which detract alot from the image) are we really helping that photographer if we sugar coat, or fail to point out what we really think? I'm not talking this being just a newer to the forum thing either...realistically if I don't get a critique which points out how I could improve am I just going to assume my image is fine and leave it at that?

And I go back to the point again. Is Composition really a "technical quality" when we offer critique?

[kiwi]

Let's get back to why people aren posting pictures rather than good critique. I accept however the lack of the latter can effect the former

[ricktas]

I have a slower ADSL conection. That combined with the slowness of the site at the moment means that it is best for me to wait to after the site fix. I have a few images to add then :)

The site speed will be resolved this Friday. The new server is purchased and its being configured by Kym at present, ready for the move!

[Xenedis]

Poor Xenedis. Clearly you will have to change your name :P.

I had mine first, so you get to change yours. :-P


And I go back to the point again. Is Composition really a "technical quality" when we offer critique?

I consider composition an aesthetic element.

Things such as focus and exposure would rate to my mind as technical properties, but even within those elements, the 'rules' are flexible.

As far as exposure, blowing out highlights would rate as the main source of people's damnation to photographic hell.

[Xebadir]

I think its at the crux of the issue Kiwi. Regardless of how we think our critique can potentially influence whether people post more images. I don't think you can really separate them. The feedback process is as key as posting the images...why post images if you get nothing out of doing so?

[kiwi]

I didn separate them, I accepted your point and suggested moving on.

[Tannin]

As far as exposure, blowing out highlights would rate as the main source of people's damnation to photographic hell.

Actually, I blow out highlights regularly, and quite deliberately. Quite often, blown highlights are an essential item in the composition. I am fond, for example, of sun and clouds reflecting in water. I like to get both the sun itself and the reflection in frame. You MUST blow the highlights when you do this, or the resulting shot is terrible! There are many other examples.

And you know what? I think I need a picture post to show you what I mean. I have a couple of domestic duties to attend to, but I think it's time I posted a picture thread - something I seldom do these days. Didn't we have a thread about that very thing? :)

[Xenedis]

Actually, I blow out highlights regularly, and quite deliberately. Quite often, blown highlights are an essential item in the composition. I am fond, for example, of sun and clouds reflecting in water. I like to get both the sun itself and the reflection in frame. You MUST blow the highlights when you do this, or the resulting shot is terrible! There are many other examples.

The use of GND filters and/or exposure bracketing can be used to get around that, but certainly in some scenes you'll get clipped highlights.

Whether or not that's a problem depends on the nature of the element and its prominence in the scene, or importance to the image.

[Scotty72]

I post (probably too many) pics regularly but I don't always care if I get responses or not. I have a say that I often do get good critique / suggestions / advice etc. Other times it is not so useful.

I must admit though, I can see why it would be highly disheartening to post a pic and receive either no response or 'nice shot' (sometimes - mia-culpa). If I were seeking some advice (because I wanted to understand how to improve), that would make me give up - and occassionally I go quiet for a month or two for this reason.

Scotty

[kiwi]

Personally if I get no posts on a photo I post it makes me realise it's One of these reasons (good feedback in a way)

1/ so stunning that people are gobsmacked
2/ boring as batshit
3/ crap

[fabian628]

Sometimes the cc is not so useful.

eg. comments on sharpness when the picture is viewed at websize aswell as compression from uploading.

I'd like cc where someone may say 'I think it would look better if you did this' and posted an example image and explained how they got that effect. I have been tempted to do this a few times but I do not know if it would offend the original poster so I didn't :(

But I do like to view images and see how other people are taking pictures, and also ask questions about thier technique or how they were able to capture a certain picture.

[dannat]

I am fairly new here but have only lodged a couple of pics, both as taker & critiqued I found good shot a bit of waste of time. Technically I don't have much to offer, & think some would be offended if I say I didn't like a shot or would have liked it done this way without having something better to back it up. Similarly when I post a pic I want someone to say, crop it this way, use a filter, select sky in Pshop & brighten it ( though I find it hard to absorb the Pshop tips this would help me)

[Xenedis]

Sometimes the cc is not so useful.

eg. comments on sharpness when the picture is viewed at websize aswell as compression from uploading.

Ironically smaller images have an appearance of greater sharpness.

I'm not sure that pixel-peeping a 21pm image at 100% magnification is an effective way to measure a shot's critical sharpness.

The majority of people are not going to view the image at that size, and the types of applications which need that kind of pixel count are going to be large prints, which need to be viewed from a distance, which would effectively obscure any signs of a lack of tack-sharpness.

[fabian628]

Ironically smaller images have an appearance of greater sharpness.

I'm not sure that pixel-peeping a 21pm image at 100% magnification is an effective way to measure a shot's critical sharpness.

The majority of people are not going to view the image at that size, and the types of applications which need that kind of pixel count are going to be large prints, which need to be viewed from a distance, which would effectively obscure any signs of a lack of tack-sharpness.

thats true, however if there is soft lighting it can be hard to see detail in small web sized images, so it can look like a soft image sometimes :)

[kiwi]

I think most more experienced photographers can tell soft as in out of focus or motion blur a mile away on a 200k, 800 pixel wide photo

[jev]

At the moment, I don't take pictures. Unfortunately. Firstly because I don't have enough time, secondly (maybe more important) because my health doesn't allow it - yet. Taking pictures without thinking about a message I want them to convey just isn't my cup of tea. It'' return to me in the end (I hope).

[Nanny]

I haven't posted any pic's for a while I have been too slack and haven't taken many latley.

[Mary Anne]

Too busy reading whats on here and replying to posts
I average about two posts per week and the 51/2011 it better than none.

[Pine]

Gee MrDooba
Its great to be that good! :cool:

Personally I think that some of the photos are not that good
but then again its all in the eye of the beholder.

Regards

[ricktas]

Maybe we need to be ASKING for what we want when we post our photos. All good to put up "Went to xxx the other day with three models for a shoot", and expect in-depth critique.

I think if we want to encourage more/better critique, the first thing we can do is ASK for it. Rather than the above, it could be "Went to xxx the other day with 2 models, and had my first real outing with off-camera flash. I wanted to see what people thought of the results, bearing in mind that it was my first go and that I also was experimenting with softening the results during editing, does it work? what could I do better? Is the third photo in the set the best one? Any other suggestions and advice would be appreciated too."

If we give out more information, we might just get back more information. I know I will answer with more information if the thread starter tells me a bit more about what/why they have taken the photo, or processed it a certain way, rather than 'here is a shot I took of the sunrise this morning'.

[dannat]

Ric that does make sense, will try in future

[davearnold]

I post photos occasionally (very occasionally).

Usually it is if I take an exceptional photo (rare) or something new i am trying ( e.g. recent macro).

Thinking about it, main reason I probably do not post more photos, is that, they are already usually posted on facebook, flickr, and occasionally my blog, based on a progressive quality rating, so by time it would get posted here, it would have been already posted in 3 other places and would have to be of exceptional quality.


I am hoping to start doing more "people" photos soon, and may post some here, for a more experianced ctique.

I get a tremendous amount of value from this site, but to a degree I am guilty of using it as yet another "social network " site with my "photography" friends.

[Nikkie]

I don't post because I have not taken any not snapping not posting but still looking for yours and try to give you my CC when I can but still need to gain more experience and understand of things like to soft to sharp move 2 steps left/right forward back so on I can only see what I like don't like that will come in time but I love it here and as soon as I can I will be back to annoy you all with my not so good photos

[ksolomon]

I tend to post few photos and due to the feedback to date I need to work solidly on my processing skills and learn and understand how to edit just certain parts of an image. This is part of the reason why I only post the occasional photo as those who have offered CC in the past I am off in the background trying to learn that all important processing whilst continuing with a full time job and remembering to get out and keep taking photos. I feel that if I keep putting up the same sort of PP images people will think I haven't learnt or taken anything away from previous posts (Does that make any sense?) BTW that doesn't mean that I don't take crap photos and need to work on that too

[Jules]

Darren you need to add an "I've been busy" option to your poll. Because that's my reason - I've been busy with paid work and busy with life in general. That's how it goes sometimes. I went from posting a photo every day last year (365 project) to barely posting at all these last few months. Give me another couple of months and I'll probably be posting again as my schedule opens up and I have time to do some personal (interesting) shooting.

It's all swings-and-roundabouts. I figure the forum balances itself out OK really.

[Geoff79]

After reading through the thread, a few of my thoughts:

I'm only new here and have probably posted quite a lot of photos for the length of my time here. Some threads have got one or no replies, and like Kiwi says above I just take that as an indication that the photos are so bad or boring to the general viewer (like I know my pets shots would be, and they're a constant clunker) that they're not even worth the effort. Harsh, but true.

I'll admit that sometimes even I see photos and I just look at it and know that in my personal opinion and in accordance to my personal taste buds there is no saving it, or advice to be given. Aside from 'discard this one and try again.' Luckily for me I have skin as thick as my skull and it doesn't worry me if a post is ignored. Sure, I'd prefer a response, but I just keep posting because the tips and advice I HAVE got have been priceless, and so heavily appreciated. I'd rather receive helpful critique for 1 in 10 photos than no critique for no photos because I don't post any. :)

Just quickly on the other half of this thread - my personal problem with offering "harsh" critisism. As noted, I'm still new here and still definitely at the beginner level. Sometimes I see things I just don't like about photos... like everyone with an opinion would. But because I know my skills and knowledge is limited, I admit I am often inclined to avoid putting down what might be perceived as harsh words. Maybe once I get some more knowledge and skills under my belt I can critique photos a bit more, but at the moment I kind of struggle to critique a photo from a photographer who I know has an abundance more knowledge on photography than I do.

With regard to types of feeback one can receive. I don't hate the "nice shot" comment as much as everyone else seems to hate it. To me, I take it as a sign that there is plain and simply just a nice photo on display that someone does not have critisism for. Not every photo ever taken has "a negative point" to speak of, and there is not ALWAYS critique to be offered, unless you start grasping at straws. I take a "nice shot" comment as a sign that I'm on the right track, according to someone. :) And I think that's helpful in it's own way too. I just don't think it's that bad a thing...

Anyway, that's me for now. I know I forgot stuff, but there we go.

[ksolomon]

After reading through the thread, a few of my thoughts:

Just quickly on the other half of this thread - my personal problem with offering "harsh" critisism. As noted, I'm still new here and still definitely at the beginner level. Sometimes I see things I just don't like about photos... like everyone with an opinion would. But because I know my skills and knowledge is limited, I admit I am often inclined to avoid putting down what might be perceived as harsh words. Maybe once I get some more knowledge and skills under my belt I can critique photos a bit more, but at the moment I kind of struggle to critique a photo from a photographer who I know has an abundance more knowledge on photography than I do.

Geoff, I agree 100% with your statement above, my skills and knowledge is very limited and I also avoid putting down my personal opinions incase that it perceived as harsh. Sometimes I do put things like Nice photo because of ..... rather than anything too technical as I am not sure if it is right.

[Robbo7D]

My view is that people don't post images much (if at all) for any or a combination of the following reasons:


they're intimidated by some of the images visible on this site;
they don't feel their images meet some perceived standard;
they've posted before and received little, unhelpful or no critique; or
they're here for other reasons (eg, sharing knowledge, answering questions, etc.).


While the solicitation or provision of critique is to be encouraged, some people simply won't feel comfortable doing either or both.

All of the above for me!! I try & post fairly regularly and am keen to read comments, cc etc on the photos. More often than not there are nil comments. OK, so obviously the pics are boring. Then I look at pics posted by "regulars" that command many responses, but these pics look the same to me, same compositions, same colours, same scenes. I like these pics, I respect the photgrophers & the efforts they put in to get these shots.....but inherently, they all look familiar, and you see the same comments on each & every one of them. Do these banal & obvious comments help the photogropher achieve better photos in the future?

[rellik666]

I am with Jules.....busy and short cold days have had an effect on my desire to take photos....I keep pottering around here looking for inspiration...and whilst I have a challange in mind I haven't got it off the ground yet....back to the short cold days....

Will get back to saying more....am trying to remember to give a more rounded opinion.... :o

[mrDooba]

Gee MrDooba
Its great to be that good! :cool:

Personally I think that some of the photos are not that good
but then again its all in the eye of the beholder.

Regards

I never said I was "good". And if you knew me(which you don't) you would know that I would never say(or even think) I was good at anything.
All I said was I take my bird photography very seriously.

[Lance B]

I still do post some photos, however, a few observations:

Looking at some other people's contributions you can sometimes feel quite humbled! Looking at Dylans and a few other's landscapes etc makes me feel quite inadequate! Sar, Richard Hall and some other people's bird photos also can be quite a humbling experience. :)

As for critiquing, I find it more useful to study the great images that are posted here and see where I can improve. Generally, most critiquing that I see is just a different opinion and in most cases not necessarily better, just different and therefore I steer clear of just commenting to show a different idea. Essentially, I find that I know how to compose and that lighting is very, very important etc and I am happy with this aspect of my photography, but it is in the area of post processing where I need to learn most. Dylan and a few others have shown us their workflow, which is very helpful, but there needs to be more in depth information about all this as there are things they do that we need to know why they do each step and what effect it has.

Also, I have noticed that there a couple of people who used to comment on my photos do not do so now and I am wondering if this is because of my stance on the carbon tax debate as it seems to have a parallel. I have not stopped commenting on their photos even though I do not necessarily share their opinion on this or other matters. :confused013 Some of those same people do not reply to my comments on their photos when I post them, which I find a little discourteous as I always make a point of it to reply to people's comments on my photos as I think that is the courteous thing to do.

Anyway, I will keep posting photos when I get some decent shots! :)

[Calxoddity]

Hi,
I'm probably not the best person to ask this question of, as I'm finding it hard enough to post words between work commitments, let alone pikkies, but here goes.

I don't post pikkies that often because my main motivation in taking photos is to gain enjoyment from the hobby. Hence, I only tend to post a pikkie if I think it's something out of the ordinary, or asking why it sucks so much (although I'd usually just delete in the latter case...). I don't otherwise feel the urge or obligation to share my photos: it's not that I don't want to share, it's just not a motivating factor.

Oh dear, I take photos but don't share that much. I don't think I'm going to burn in photography hell as a result, though - I share and contribute ideas and information when I can. Words have value too.

Regards,
Calx

PS - I don't critique other's pikkies very much because I don't think I'm a good critic.

[Patagonia]

Where does lack of inspiration goes, mint sauce?...haven´t posted a photo for at least 3 month and that´s the only reason, I even took around 700 photos on my recent trip to some US national parks but I shot only because I was there (as in "automatic" but me, not the camera) and each time I open ViewNX to select and make some PP to the photos I end up surfing the web...

...did I mentioned I finished with my girlfriend 3 month ago?:D...think I need a new muse...

regards

[kiwi]

It seems to me based on this that people aren't posting pictures because they don't in general think that the wider AP community is neither interested in the pictures or even if they are not interested in providing their opinion because somehow they think that their opinion is somehow nit useful because of their own relative experience

I'd like to openly state both of those reasons are utter tripe

I for one want to see a wide variety of photos, good bad and indifferent and value everyone's opinion whether it be technical, critique, a personal opinion whether they are better than me, just starting out or those that I dont agree with - EVERY one has an opinion about everything, that's what your senses and brain is for isn't it

[ving]

hmm... to be honest i post photos if i take them... I havent taken many lately. :rolleyes:

...and thats about it.

oh and with regards to C&C, I'll take what i can get. "nice shot" is preferable to nothing as kiwi stated.

[Patagonia]

Ricktas, can you make an historical statistic to see evolution of replies in the cc forums? are we receiving more or less than one or two years ago for example...

[Duane Pipe]

Lance. If I answer a thread with, Nice pic or great capture I would not expect a reply. But if I have gone to a lot of trouble to answer a question and get no response, which has happened, and not even a thank you
Call me bitter if you like, but I have never replied to and most of the time skip past that members threads

[Nikkie]

I for one want to see a wide variety of photos, good bad and indifferent and value everyone's opinion whether it be technical, critique, a personal opinion whether they are better than me, just starting out or those that I dont agree with - EVERY one has an opinion about everything, that's what your senses and brain is for isn't it I agree with this Darren I love looking around OPs photos as you know I am learning right now and I do take in the CC I receive try it works did not work what can it hurt to try. However I feel (and I could be wrong) that it would be nice to see more exif data especially on those posted by more advance photographers not so much because they need to the CC or not but for us learners I think maybe we could go and try using similar or the same or close to the data given by those that have a lot more experience I for one would see this and use the settings or as close to the settings even though other equipment maybe be different I could see well this person is experience and this is the data used even if say the flower/building/land/seascape might be different it just might be of some help giving us a starting point. I just notice that some of the more experience people don't seem to put up there exif data

[mechawombat]

I thought I would be lambasted for posting lots of photos lots :lol:

I have stopped as my last two photo posts recieve 1 reply total

But as of today I shall post more photos

[jasnat]

I post images to share and look for improvement and I get some responses. But not to much. I would welcome hard core reply's and that's what I look for myself. So I'm content to show what I have. (I could share more) I feel there should be a balance.

Also, you do get a lot of window shopper's and I'm one of them. I'm not to good a critiquing. Maybe that's why people swing by and keep moving knowing I could do the same to them.

[kiwi]

Personally I'm more likely to comment on someone's pictures if they comment on mine

I also get pipped if I do a lengthy critique (unlikely as that is) and there's no acknowledgment (there is after all a thanks button)

I'm also far more likely to help posters who post pics and ask for help rather than the posters who continue to post "I'm doing a family shoot in september and don't know what lens to use".... Because that's the lazy way out and more often than not its not useful. Hardest but best way to learn is by doing.

[Pine]

I never said I was "good". And if you knew me(which you don't) you would know that I would never say(or even think) I was good at anything.
All I said was I take my bird photography very seriously.

"I don't post many photos anymore because I receive very little criticism. (that was the whole reason for me posting)"

Hmmm........ :rolleyes:

Regards

[Pine]

I love photography and post my better photos regularly

However what I am realizing is that even although I think my photos are great I still have a lot to learn.

As such I think that one should post your pictures and take any critique with a smile as it is a great way to learn :D

Ricktas thanks for a great site.

Regards

[Nikkie]

Personally I'm more likely to comment on someone's pictures if they comment on mine

I also get pipped if I do a lengthy critique (unlikely as that is) and there's no acknowledgment (there is after all a thanks button)

I'm also far more likely to help posters who post pics and ask for help rather than the posters who continue to post "I'm doing a family shoot in september and don't know what lens to use".... Because that's the lazy way out and more often than not its not useful. Hardest but best way to learn is by doing. I don't think Ive seen very much of yours Darren maybe I look at the wrong place or the wrong time

[neil70]

I don't post many photos. I would do more if it was a simple exercise of just uploading your shots to one site rather than going through another. I understand why it is that we post through another site. I know its just me being lazy but that is why.
I enjoy giving and receiving cc's on who ever and sometimes "wow grate shot" is all a photo needs. Other times more in depth advice is needed.

[kiwi]

Yip, this time of year it's sport and more sport and I post plenty of that. I don't do much else until summer

[jjphoto]

I'm a lot more careful about what I do post on this forum because the editing rules (30 minute limit) don't allow me to change my mind at a later date and alter any part of the post (eg. a link, text or image). It's forum policy, and that's fine, but that change in policy has certainly changed my view about posting.

It's a shame, IMHO, that the forum works that way as many others don't and I definitely post stuff (words and pics) on other forums that I won't post here (or any other forums with the same rule) ONLY for the reason I've mentioned.

JJ

[kiwi]

I don't post many photos. I would do more if it was a simple exercise of just uploading your shots to one site rather than going through another. I understand why it is that we post through another site. I know its just me being lazy but that is why.
I enjoy giving and receiving cc's on who ever and sometimes "wow grate shot" is all a photo needs. Other times more in depth advice is needed.

You can just upload directly to AP

Even if you post to flickr etc it's just s matter if copy and pasting an URL link, that's not hard is it ?

[Ozspeed]

Its not hard for the majority of us to feel that our photos are a long way off the mark as far as critique is concerned, positive CC like the type Mongo has done in the thread "Mill" has me full of hope. :th3:

[kiwi]

I'm a lot more careful about what I do post on this forum because the editing rules (30 minute limit) don't allow me to change my mind at a later date and alter any part of the post (eg. a link, text or image). It's forum policy, and that's fine, but that change in policy has certainly changed my view about posting.

It's a shame, IMHO, that the forum works that way as many others don't and I definitely post stuff (words and pics) on other forums that I won't post here (or any other forums with the same rule) ONLY for the reason I've mentioned.

JJ

Seriously ? How often is that a problem ?

If I make a mistake and want to change and can't due to 30 minute thing I just report my post and a nice moderator changes it for me, no dramas

[Tannin]

I'm a lot more careful about what I do post on this forum because the editing rules (30 minute limit) don't allow me to change my mind at a later date and alter any part of the post (eg. a link, text or image). It's forum policy, and that's fine, but that change in policy has certainly changed my view about posting.

It's a shame, IMHO, that the forum works that way as many others don't and I definitely post stuff (words and pics) on other forums that I won't post here (or any other forums with the same rule) ONLY for the reason I've mentioned.

That's not a deal-breaker, but yes John. It's one of those little things that can tip you one way or another and it is a bit of a weird policy that many much bigger fora than this one manage quite happily without. If it's any help, I comfort myself with the notion that it doesn't matter because no-one really reads my current posts, let alone my old ones!

[kiwi]

Its not hard for the majority of us to feel that our photos are a long way off the mark as far as critique is concerned, positive CC like the type Mongo has done in the thread "Mill" has me full of hope. :th3:

I firmly believe that all critique is positive if you take it that way, even comments that are negative.

Beating around the bush, puffery, and platitudes feels fluffy but is ultimately misleading

[jjphoto]

... If it's any help, I comfort myself with the notion that it doesn't matter because no-one really reads my current posts, let alone my old ones!

:) I know what you mean! I feel the same way.

An example came up the other day. I found that Google was pointing to an old thread of mine on this forum dating back a couple of years I might add. The original thread was pointing to pages/images on a domain that no longer exists, however, the content does still exist but on another domain. I was unable to alter the original post/links and simply added another post with the new info/links but the Google search will always be wrong because the original post wasn't changed (not that it matters I supppose). The point is, it would be nice to be able to make that kind of change, if and when needed or just because you changed your mind.

JJ

[gerry]

I like the reward system, the more posts that you put out there the more of the site's fun parts you can access, may be a critic counter with benefits might work. Think outside the box as this is what makes this website so much fun. Just a quick idea what if for every 25 cc counts you get to use the HC (Hard core critic smiley) This could then be sent to selected members probably those whom identify them selves as advanced.

have a look at sites like photosig where your participation is directly based on your critique, this works well however it also has some seriously downfalls. There is no way to force people to provide decent critique and if you try to it will in 95% cases backfire.



People don't post pics, people don't post critique, I get that. I do. But the lifeblood of a forum are pictures, not discussions about carbon tax or gear etc.

Sometimes yes, you get to a point where you might not get a lot of critique or comments as you post excellent photos, but surely you get lots of admiration and people who aspire to achieve the same results.

I think here is a crux issue, this site has always had quite a robust OOF discussion and often more time and effort is spent by people discussing off topic threads than photographic threads. My view is this site has a high social networking content to it so there is a large overlap of off topic stuff.

I would rephrase (not saying your wrong merely my opinion) your comment to the lifeblood of a good forum is about quality over quantity and fair sense of give and take in terms of posted content.


Nice shot comments are better than zippo.

nah, i disagree why compete with flickr? or facebook? these do this and a lot better imo. If a person has enough respect for you and the community they will take the 5 minutes it takes to write a half decent reply to your image (s) - providing there is not 30 images in thread, imo anything more than a couple of images in a thread is not really looking for critique.


Let's get back to why people aren posting pictures rather than good critique. I accept however the lack of the latter can effect the former

Critique is how you will learn to be a better photographer, if you take the time to dissect, analyse and write down why a image works for you or why is does not this is gonna help more than blasting out a 30 image thread or 50 posts with 'wow nice shot'


I do post a few pictures here from time to time however I do try and maintain somewhat unique content across the mediums that I participate in, this forum is not the one where I spend the majority of my time hence I really only post images where I want a different user base.

[mrDooba]

"I don't post many photos anymore because I receive very little criticism. (that was the whole reason for me posting)"

Hmmm........ :rolleyes:

Regards

Yes that is true. Not many people on AP give me criticism.

I also mentioned that my photos "get picked to shreds" on other forums.

Would a "good" photographer have their work picked apart.

Who do you think you are to makes assumptions of me and attack my character?

[ving]

Would a "good" photographer have their work picked apart.

absolutely!
and so they should.

[Xenedis]

Would a "good" photographer have their work picked apart.

If a good photographer wants to be a great photographer, sure.

It's easy enough to reach some level of proficiency and fall into a false comfort zone which inhibits further growth.

The difference between good and great is substantial, and even the best photographers can (and should) still learn.

[gerry]

It's easy enough to reach some level of proficiency and fall into a false comfort zone which inhibits further growth.


well said and its worthwhile having that on the back of ya camera :th3:

[Tannin]

^ But only if you shoot medium format.

(Wouldn't fit on a 35mm SLR!)

[Kym]

Would a "good" photographer have their work picked apart.

Yes in the form of CC (Constructive Critique)
If 'picked apart' is just negative, then no.

[Pine]

"Would a "good" photographer have their work picked apart. (MrDooba)"

I would say yes, irrespective of a photographers proficiency one always learns from CC (constructive critique).

Regards

[terry.langham]

Personally, I haven’t had the time to take many photos lately so haven’t been posting many. Hopefully that’ll change soon.
I also am a bit light on critique for a few different reasons. Often others say what I would like to, but better than I am able to and I don’t see the point in repeating it, poorly (should probably hit the ‘thanks’ button in CC threads more though).
I have noticed lately there is an accepted image style amongst a lot of photographers that I find a little boring (that’s not to say it is wrong, just it doesn’t appeal to me). I will often refrain from commenting on photos that seem to fit that style because my biases tend to be nit picky and pointless to the OP. There are others that are better at critiquing said photos without my bias.

[Lance B]

The funny thing about it is, I am sure even the best most iconic photos can be picked to pieces, yet they are still considered as some of the best photography around. Take Henri Cartier Bressons photo of the man jumping over a puddle done in black and white:

http://www.henricartierbresson.org/hcb/redimg/photo.jpg

Here we have subject that is blurred and running into a "wall", ie the right side of the photo, subject black and under exposed, probably should have been a landscape shot and there are probably many other things that could be criticised. But that's not the point and I think people go too far when critiquing in many instances wanting some perfect result. This is what makes photography so good in that it isn't perfect and nor should it be and precisely why we like photographs as they can be like a signature. This is why I rarely critique a photo in the negative unless there are glaring mistakes like it is just plain boring, ie no subject matter, over/under exposed, very poor compositional value, subject blur etc. At the end of the day, it is just someone's opinion and just different and (more than likely) not necessarily better and if you ended up doing what the person critquing says to do, then it is not your photo, it is his/her photo and what they like.

[William]

;) I can't comment or vote o this one Terry :) I post heaps of images :D If I was to vote it would be Gravey/ Mint Sauce:confused013 Good thread , Looking forward to see the opinions of others on this subject , I'm a photo "Junkie" I'm out every day taking shots , Only a very few get seen on this site , I'm to lazy to post to a heap of threads :rolleyes: Glad you bought this up - Cheers Bill :th3:

[terry.langham]

;) I can't comment or vote o this one Terry :) I post heaps of images :D If I was to vote it would be Gravey/ Mint Sauce:confused013 Good thread , Looking forward to see the opinions of others on this subject , I'm a photo "Junkie" I'm out every day taking shots , Only a very few get seen on this site , I'm to lazy to post to a heap of threads :rolleyes: Glad you bought this up - Cheers Bill :th3:

Don't blame me Bill, Kiwi started this one :D

[William]

:o:lol: , Geez , I've been shaped all day till an hour ago , I must have got excited Terry :D Back on full speed now Whoo Hoo !! And a few Beers later ;) Well change the Terry to Kiwi , Sorry mate , I lost the plot :th3:

[Nikkie]

Before my operation I must say I was feeling like I was posting way to many that was my own thoughts not because somebody said something to me at all but did not want to be come known as Nikkie the forum hog

[OzzieTraveller]

G'day Kiwi et al

Good Q mate...

.... the lifeblood of a [photography] forum are pictures, not discussions about carbon tax or gear etc.

To some extent it's hard to answer & quantify this one - I feel that many APers mirror many of the camera-club people I have worked with for the past 40+ yrs where equipment & technique 'seems' more important than the results. It is also overshadowed by the results posted by the very superior images posted by a small percentage of members whose equipt is of a very professional nature, and their results show it [ie: very fine, hi-res images] whereas I am guessing, that many others do not have the budget or inclination to put that much $$ into their equipment

For myself & my 52/011 postings, I often feel that the images I have shot during the recent days are often 'droll' and it sometimes is hard to find a few half-decent images to post. I know that I go thru the 'ups & downs' photographically and these days I am deleting about 75% of images that I take [rather than the 25% in years past]

It also seems to me that there also are quite a percentage of AP members here who are not SLR users who are put off by the constant barrage - here & in the photo media - that suggests that you 'must' shoot with an slr & in the RAW in order to get a decent image ... and maybe, these members just want to have photography as a hobby, not as an all-consuming thing

Here's some of my 'droll' stuff that I am playing with recently - your thoughts??

1- a 30 second exposure by the full moon, ISO-1000 - 10pm at night
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6023/5956718419_7aea18717b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ozzie_traveller/5956718419/)
Landscape by night(2) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ozzie_traveller/5956718419/) by ozzie_traveller (http://www.flickr.com/people/ozzie_traveller/), on Flickr

2- around the campfire, 40 images x 30 seconds @ ISO-1000
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6133/5957247906_bd4049ec65.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ozzie_traveller/5957247906/)
Adels Grove-04d,m [7pm] 40x30sec (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ozzie_traveller/5957247906/) by ozzie_traveller (http://www.flickr.com/people/ozzie_traveller/), on Flickr

3- The campfire later same night - 64 images x 30 secs @ ISO-1000
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6128/5957251330_671156627e.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ozzie_traveller/5957251330/)
Adels Grove-04c,m, [7,30pm] 64x30sec (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ozzie_traveller/5957251330/) by ozzie_traveller (http://www.flickr.com/people/ozzie_traveller/), on Flickr

To me they're 'nice hobby images, not AP stuff' ... and I would not be at all excited to show them normally
Regards, Phil

[Lance B]

Phil,

Your images and you comments sort of bolster my point. To you they are good and interesting and they are you not me and that is what makes them good, almost warts and all. In other words, this is what makes you you and your point of view etc. Having said that, I do think they are quite nice.

I am also amazed at the 1st image as iot looks like it was taken in the middle of the day, bit almost the middle of the night!

I would definitely keep posting your images as they are good and interesting, IMO.

[kiwi]

I think the 365 and 52 whatever threads are problems in their own right, those that post or do those I think are taking away from the rest of the forum in a way

[Xenedis]

I think the 365 and 52 whatever threads are problems in their own right, those that post or do those I think are taking away from the rest of the forum in a way

How so?

[kiwi]

I believe that there are people involved in that that are no longer as obviously active in the general forum to it's detriment

[Tommo1965]

sorry I haven't read the whole thread..I saw it this morning before work and it had only had a few replies..now I see its up around the five pages worth ..so I will read everyone's comment when I have time.

Kiwi
One of the reasons Im now using AP is because people do post images a couple of other sites I use have become Gear/moaning about their gear forums...Ap was a breath of fresh air and when I posted my first images here I was amazed at the quick feedback I got...its like being in a photography club..but not having to go out the door to meets ..LOL

As people have taken their time to view my images and give me much needed feedback { im always grateful for it} ...Im trying in my turn to view as many pictures thread as I can ..to offer the same service I've been privy too ..

My only reservation is the amount of traffic AP gets..quite often wadding through pages and pages of overnight posts is difficult..

one thing I have noticed in the short Time Ive been posting here is. if you take the time.others will for you too

[ricktas]

Ricktas, can you make an historical statistic to see evolution of replies in the cc forums? are we receiving more or less than one or two years ago for example...

Not really, I could do some stats on the average number of replies to threads etc, but a thread could have 10 replies all saying 'nice photo'. Without opening every thread and reading it and seeing if the reply constituted good critique or just general comment, it would be impossible to get a good feel of how much constructive critique was done, just from statistics. There are 54000 threads on the site and I am not about to try and read each one (again).:eek::D

[Jules]

I think the 365 and 52 whatever threads are problems in their own right, those that post or do those I think are taking away from the rest of the forum in a way

There are people who only ever post to the Birds forum Darren. Are they taking away from the rest of the AP?

Have you actually looked at people's 365 and 52 threads? There's an amazing variety of images to be seen. People are practicing and experimenting, providing and receiving feedback, and sharing their knowledge and techniques. Isn't that what AP is about?

[kiwi]

By definition, yes
Yes, but to the Detriment of those pictures home threads

[Jules]

You do realise that you're being a bit contradictory here Darren? You're concerned that people don't post enough photos on the forum, yet you consider the regular daily/weekly posting of 365 and 52 photos to be detrimental to the forum?!! :confused013:D

[kiwi]

Yip, I do

[neil70]

You can just upload directly to AP

Even if you post to flickr etc it's just s matter if copy and pasting an URL link, that's not hard is it ?

I was under the understanding that you had to link through an external site, now that i know we dont i will try direct uploading.
and no it not to hard its just an extra step as i dont realy put up my shots other than to post on here or if some one wants to look at some of my footy shots

[Xenedis]

I was under the understanding that you had to link through an external site, now that i know we dont

You can use either method.

Personally, I don't upload my images to AP; they're already published on my gallery elsewhere and I have no desire to publish the same image in multiple places; I just display them in-line here and link back to the image page.

[Jules]

Yip, I do

Do you also realise that, whether intentional or not, you are implying the 365/52 threads are of lesser value than those in other forums? To be fair, I've seen that sentiment expressed several times on AP by others as well, so it's not just you. However, that attitude can be quite hurtful to the many dedicated people who post in those forums and suggests some kind of forum hierarchy which I do not believe exists in AP.

I've been inspired by images and inspired by the improvements I've seen other shooters make in their photography as a result of those projects. I think that's something to be applauded, not dismissed.

[kiwi]

I'm not dismissing it, and I'm sure that those participating and following are enjoying it, I never suggested otherwise. My point is those doing so aren't participating in my opinion as actively in the rest of the forum, to it's detriment.

[Xenedis]

I'm not dismissing it, and I'm sure that those participating and following are enjoying it, I never suggested otherwise. My point is those doing so aren't participating in my opinion as actively in the rest of the forum, to it's detriment.

Interesting.

I know several people who have 52/2011 threads, and they actively post in genre-specific sections of the forum.

If people are contributing to AP in a positive way, does it matter where?

[geoffsta]

I joined this forum because of the CC that members were giving each other. I thought I could learn a lot from it.
I was an absolute beginner, and at first scared to give CC in case I was wrong, which I was on several occasions. And in a way I was getting CC on my CC, which is all a part of learning.
Also I had read on the forum that a members should give 3-5 CC's per image posted. And I have tried to stick to that as much as I can.
I'm not a text book person. So everything I've learnt about photography, I've learnt from here.
And yes, sometimes I wont get any CC on some of my images. And I do get a bit upset. But I just get back on my bike and keep going. I'm not going to learn anything by chucking a tantrum.

I tend not to give CC on birds or macro. Simply because I wouldn't know the difference between a sparrow or a finch, and I'm not a bug fan. But if there isn't many of the other genre to give CC on, I'll have a look.

[kiwi]

Interesting.

I know several people who have 52/2011 threads, and they actively post in genre-specific sections of the forum.

If people are contributing to AP in a positive way, does it matter where?

As long as this occurs, no.

[ApolloLXII]

Nice shot comments are better than zippo.

Just saying "Nice shot" or "Great capture" is pretty meaningless unless you say why it's a nice shot. The idea of CC is exactly that. Saying something about the picture that you like in more terms than just "Great capture" is far more meaningful than something that just indicates that you took a good picture. When you put up a pic for CC, the intention is that you want to learn how to improve or what you did wrong. A comment such as "Nice shot" tells you nothing and I often wonder sometimes if the person making the 2 word critique were just too lazy to make a real, worthwhile critique that is truly informative. I'd rather zippo than just a "Nice shot" or "Great capture".

[kiwi]

Although I agree that nice shot isn't useful, I think I'd prefer 20 nice shot comments rather than nothing

[ApolloLXII]

This is an interesting quote from a professional landscape photographer, Gary King who lives in Cornwall, England:

"A while ago, I joined various photography social networking sites in an attempt to recieve critique of my work and also gain tips from the experiences of other established photographers. I soon became drawn into this world. I began to feel that my work was suffering as a consequence of 'feeding the beast', just so I could recieve lots of hits, ratings and comments on my images.

I needed a reality check and questioned my reasons for making images in general. I learned very quickly that not all images that have taken time, skill, consideration of composition and perhaps an element of luck where the weather was concerned, always recieve the critique you deserve or, perhaps, anticipate. My experience has taught me to to always make the image that you want, one that you have a connection with, not what you feel you have to take to please others, unless you are commissioned to do so of course."

The reason why I don't post a lot of pictures on here is based on much of what I just quoted. I want to take pictures in my own style and not take pictures just to please others. My primary purpose in posting is to get feedback about what I'm doing wrong or how to improve on what I did right. In this way, I see the site as more of a tool that I can use as guidance and I would post more often if I knew that I was going to get decent, constructive critique rather than getting "Nice shot" or "Great capture" comments. Perhaps CC should be reserved for just a panel of the most experienced members of the site rather than all and sundry and then more photos might be posted by other members who want to learn the art of photography and not concentrate too much on the social side of things until they gain a bit more experience. What do you think?

[Jules]

I'm not dismissing it, and I'm sure that those participating and following are enjoying it, I never suggested otherwise. My point is those doing so aren't participating in my opinion as actively in the rest of the forum, to it's detriment.

Well personally, if people are contributing photos, I'm not going to be picky about where they post them.

And I really believe that AP is managing just fine. As I said before, it's all swings-and-roundabouts and overall, I think we're doing OK.

[Duane Pipe]

The One thing two days challenge has lost a regular participant and I put that down to being too busy with their 52/2011 thread.
No offense meant to that member either:), I am just agreeing with Darren.:th3:

[kiwi]

Well personally, if people are contributing photos, I'm not going to be picky about where they post them.

And I really believe that AP is managing just fine. As I said before, it's all swings-and-roundabouts and overall, I think we're doing OK.

I agree, no problem in general, but there are lots of members who dont post pics

[mikew09]

But I still do - post pictures that is. I did vote earlier on this thread and just revisited to comment. Man after scanning through some of the posts I almost forgot what this thread was about. Is it possible that some members have just reached their photo goals and no longer have the need to use the forum for photographer growth but still enjoy the social interation of the whole experience on the forum. May apply to some.

Hmm, I am still pushing photos to the forum after 2 yrs and still learning - improving but learning. At the rate I gain experience I may still be posting in 10 yrs after retirement :lol:

[Xenedis]

there are lots of members who dont post pics

Yep.

Some people contribute in other ways and aren't necessarily interested in receiving critiques or "nice shot" comments.

The acts of posting images or critiquing other people's images are just two of many ways in which people can contribute to this site.

[Lance B]

[SIZE=4][FONT=Times New Roman]This is an interesting quote from a professional landscape photographer, Gary King who lives in Cornwall, England:

"A while ago, I joined various photography social networking sites in an attempt to recieve critique of my work and also gain tips from the experiences of other established photographers. I soon became drawn into this world. I began to feel that my work was suffering as a consequence of 'feeding the beast', just so I could recieve lots of hits, ratings and comments on my images.

I needed a reality check and questioned my reasons for making images in general. I learned very quickly that not all images that have taken time, skill, consideration of composition and perhaps an element of luck where the weather was concerned, always recieve the critique you deserve or, perhaps, anticipate. My experience has taught me to to always make the image that you want, one that you have a connection with, not what you feel you have to take to please others, unless you are commissioned to do so of course."

This is exactly my feeling and what I explained above with reference to Henri Cartier Bresson's photo. However, I will still post photos "as I like them".

[rellik666]

For me I found I was more active on the site as a whole when I was doing my 365 than I have been recently. I think the 365 group that was here last year were a great bunch who did contrbute across the site. So posting pictures in that area and getting feedback and inspiration from others in that area is not the same as posting a picture in the Birds forum? Weird.

Anyhow....I have to say that I am dissappointed that people feel that they don't post because they don't feel their images to the taste of others.

Whoever posts and whether I comment of not I take something away from the image I have seen. Both Technically and emotionally.

I will try and comment more though....

[kiwi]

I agree, i think i look forward to seeing different and unique takes, may not be everyone's cup of tea but it's art and subjective and supposed to call your norms into question, bravo your own view of life I say

[ksolomon]

Just saying "Nice shot" or "Great capture" is pretty meaningless unless you say why it's a nice shot. The idea of CC is exactly that. Saying something about the picture that you like in more terms than just "Great capture" is far more meaningful than something that just indicates that you took a good picture. When you put up a pic for CC, the intention is that you want to learn how to improve or what you did wrong. A comment such as "Nice shot" tells you nothing and I often wonder sometimes if the person making the 2 word critique were just too lazy to make a real, worthwhile critique that is truly informative. I'd rather zippo than just a "Nice shot" or "Great capture".

I understand your opinion but would like you to think about this .. some of us who are beginners like photos for the fact they are much better than mine and have a wow to me that I don't have yet, I am developing skills in landscapes and with people like Bill (William) and dtoh etc there is not much CC I can give, these photographers are more advanced than me and if I tried to CC no doubt would get something wrong and possibly offend. I do try to give more than a 2 word "nice photo" and I am certainly not lazy, I do feel they are a real response whether it is worthwhile or not. I have started to get to know some of these people and would rather acknowledge their post with a short response than click "thanks" or none at all. After all these people are helping me with CC. I could not tell you if a photo is "soft" here or "not sharp enough" as to me I really don't know yet and that is one of the reasons I am here

Ok rant over, just an opinion from someone rather new :)

[bobt]

I usually post photos only if I think they're interesting in some way. I rarely seek critiques because usually I know what's lacking anyway. I am personally not a very competition focused person because I feel that only a very small percentage of our photographs are award winning shots. This means that 95% of our shooting never gets used, which is a shame given that there is so much more to photography than just beating everyone else in competitions. Critiques are great for those times when you really need to learn something - but surely there is so much more to photography?

I'd like to see more of people just sharing photos for what they are - a reflection of our lives and what we see along the way. If photos are just examined on a technical level it all becomes so clinical that we lose sight of what it should be, and that's a window on life.

[kiwi]

Agree with that Bob

In addition if you can't technically critique a photo that's ok, but every person with a heart, soul and brain cab articulate an emotional response

[rellik666]

In addition if you can't technically critique a photo that's ok, but every person with a heart, soul and brain cab articulate an emotional response


This is what I am now trying to do....Thanks! :th3:

[kiwi]

And if that's the only positive outcome from this thread then it's been useful

[geoffsta]

From what I have read in the thread, I can think of a few old sayings.
* One mans trash, is another mans treasure.
* Never to old to learn.
* If you can't listen, buy a hearing aid.
* If a tree falls over in the bush, and you don't see it. Did the tree actually fall.
* If you don't put out, you can't put in.
* What came first. The chicken or the egg.
* And if you can't teach an old dog new tricks, you may as well shoot it.

[Terri]

I don't post many pictures because I'm very conscious of the fact that I am only sometimes a regular visitor to the forum, and therefore, because I don't post much critique / or take part in much off topic / etc posts, I don't feel I have "earned" the right to post too many pictures...... if that makes sense even a little bit....:confused013

[kiwi]

I don't post many pictures because I'm very conscious of the fact that I am only sometimes a regular visitor to the forum, and therefore, because I don't post much critique / or take part in much off topic / etc posts, I don't feel I have "earned" the right to post too many pictures...... if that makes sense even a little bit....:confused013

Makes no sense to me, I'd love to see your pics

[Terri]

Makes no sense to me

:lol: What I mean is, I don't want to be one of those people who only posts my own pics and doesn't participate enough (critiquing etc) ... not that there's anything wrong with "those people" of course :eek:

[kiwi]

Pictures are more important to a forum than critique if that helps

[bobt]

I don't post many pictures because I'm very conscious of the fact that I am only sometimes a regular visitor to the forum, and therefore, because I don't post much critique / or take part in much off topic / etc posts, I don't feel I have "earned" the right to post too many pictures...... if that makes sense even a little bit....:confused013

Actually, I can see where you're coming from on that. I also have a feeling that there is an unspoken "right of passage" (for want of a better term) in any group which determines how you see yourself as a member. There are names here which I recognise as being very much a part of the furniture, and who in this sense are part of a central core of members. If you are a spasmodic participant (for whatever reason) then you tend not to feel as if you are a part of this "core". That's one reason I seldom welcome newcomers, becuase that to me is a roles of "old comers" :D

This isn't a reflection on the group in any way - it's just the way it is when you have large groups of people. You tend to work your way up the scale until you too feel like a part of the furniture.

[ricktas]

:lol: What I mean is, I don't want to be one of those people who only posts my own pics and doesn't participate enough (critiquing etc) ... not that there's anything wrong with "those people" of course :eek:

Ah Terri, you have 668 posts, you are entitled to start posting photos, even under your own self imposed guidlines. Go for it, we wanna see em:D

[Terri]

Ah Terri, you have 668 posts, you are entitled to start posting photos, even under your own self imposed guidlines. Go for it, we wanna see em:D

:lol: Yeah, I noticed when I had 666 posts and went -> :eek:

[geoffsta]

Actually, I can see where you're coming from on that. I also have a feeling that there is an unspoken "right of passage" (for want of a better term) in any group which determines how you see yourself as a member. There are names here which I recognize as being very much a part of the furniture, and who in this sense are part of a central core of members. If you are a spasmodic participant (for whatever reason) then you tend not to feel as if you are a part of this "core". That's one reason I seldom welcome newcomers, because that to me is a roles of "old comers" :D
This isn't a reflection on the group in any way - it's just the way it is when you have large groups of people. You tend to work your way up the scale until you too feel like a part of the furniture.
I have not found that Bob and Terri. I feel that everyone on here is treated with the up most respect. From the new guy, the odd poster, the occasional poster, the regular poster, and even Kiwi the constant poster.
No one is ridiculed for only posting once a month, or a thousand a month. It's like a barter system. You have to give something, to get something in return.

[jev]

<quoting Gary King>I began to feel that my work was suffering as a consequence of 'feeding the beast', just so I could recieve lots of hits, ratings and comments on my images.</quoting>

The reason why I don't post a lot of pictures on here is based on much of what I just quoted. I want to take pictures in my own style and not take pictures just to please others. My primary purpose in posting is to get feedback about what I'm doing wrong or how to improve on what I did right.
We're getting close to another issue that perhaps deserves (once again) it's own thread ('once again' since that is an issue that every once in a while pops up on the forum in one way or another). Gary explains exactly the way I feel - there's a trap luring in the forum darkness called "crowdpleasing". Don't get caught in it, be true to yourself.

The basic underlying question is: "why do you take pictures"?

To many, a photo just is a picture of something pretty. To others, a photo is a pretty picture of something. And then there are some that define a photo to be a pretty picture of a something pretty. Those are the crowd-pleasers.

To me, however, a photo primarily is a way to communicate. It can be pretty, but it can be butt-ugly too - as long as it conveys the message in the strongest way possible. And that means it should attract the eye, it should draw the viewer into a thinking-process. Show me a pretty picture of a beautiful landscape and I say: "nice shot". Show me a similar picture of that landscape but now featuring a large horizon- and otherwise environment-polluting chimney, illustrating how modern man destroys nature and you'll prolly get a more thoughtful critique from me. But for that CC, you'll need to post it.

As for a panel of "most experienced members", to me that sounds counter-effective. Such a panel most likely will be biased towards what they feel is "good photography". The best critiques often come from open-minded "beginners" that do speak up. They prolly won't give you technical hints, but they often will tell you (albeit in an indirect way) if you succeeded in getting the message across.

[AdamR]

I mainly just read. I have posted pics along time ago but that was when I was new to photography. I am now at the point where I know if my picture is what I want or not, and basically I couldnt care less what others thought. Dont want their critique or their praise. I feel that those are the two main reasons people post to get praise, or a few, and I mean a few actually want a specific recommendation to guide them.

[rellik666]

So what about the people that just want to share?

Can I ask what you read if you know what is wrong, what are you looking for?

[Tannin]

Just wanting to share is wrong. Just wanting to enjoy is evil. I know this for a fact, 'cause I read it here.

[kiwi]

No, rubbish Tony. Who's saying that ?

I think do what you want, I'd just like more people to post more pictures, I think it's healthy forum behaviour. Hopefully some that didnt post pics before this thread now will.

[ApolloLXII]

I understand your opinion but would like you to think about this .. some of us who are beginners like photos for the fact they are much better than mine and have a wow to me that I don't have yet, I am developing skills in landscapes and with people like Bill (William) and dtoh etc there is not much CC I can give, these photographers are more advanced than me and if I tried to CC no doubt would get something wrong and possibly offend. I do try to give more than a 2 word "nice photo" and I am certainly not lazy, I do feel they are a real response whether it is worthwhile or not. I have started to get to know some of these people and would rather acknowledge their post with a short response than click "thanks" or none at all. After all these people are helping me with CC. I could not tell you if a photo is "soft" here or "not sharp enough" as to me I really don't know yet and that is one of the reasons I am here

Ok rant over, just an opinion from someone rather new :)

I'll answer that by directly quoting Kiwi, the thread starter - "In addition if you can't technically critique a photo that's ok, but every person with a heart, soul and brain can articulate an emotional response". As in everything, we all have to start somewhere including the critique of other people's photos. I found this fairly daunting to begin with myself when I first began using Photography forums but nobody expects a beginner to use lengthy, technical critiques from the get go. Just say why you like/dislike a photo and what you think could be improved (if applicable) in simple terms. It also helps to study other peoples photos including those posted on other websites as well as the comments that have been made about them. You will soon learn what should be sharp or in or out of focus as well as what constitutes good depth of field but, above all else, just get out there and take photos based on any advice and tips that you pick up along the way. As for upsetting people, unless you get it drastically wrong, I don't think you will offend anybody unless you're offering desructive critique, ie "I think your pic is crap!!" in which case you'll get a rap over the knuckles from the mods.

[jim]

Just wanting to share is wrong. Just wanting to enjoy is evil. I know this for a fact, 'cause I read it here.

Isn't "Share and Enjoy" the motto of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation Complaints division?

[Tannin]

Just wanting to share is wrong. Just wanting to enjoy is evil. I know this for a fact, 'cause I read it here.


No, rubbish Tony. Who's saying that ?.

It tends to be more implied than stated outright, Kiwi, but there is nevertheless a clear and strong undercurrent at AP which says "if you ain't seriously trying to get our views on your work, and learning to do things the same way that we do them ('cause we know what is good and you don't), and especially if you don't enter the competitions, which are the measure of real value of your photographs and indeed of your worth as a photographer, then you are a waste of space and probably shouldn't really be here.

I think that snooty, offensive feel to the place has faded a fair bit over the last year or so - which is great, and entirely to AP's credit - but there is still a whiff of that in-group stink around the corridors. Be nice to see it fade away completely, though I doubt it will.

Me, I take my photography pretty seriously, but I absolutely support anyone who just wants to have a litttle fun and share the moment. Life is good. enjoy it!

[ApolloLXII]

When I originally posted on this thread, I also should have added that the other reason why I don't post very many photos is because I just don't get the time, particularly in the last few weeks as I haved moved house. About the only photographic activity I've had lately was to take photos of the house after we vacated it to record the condition it was in (it was a rental) as well as the new place before we moved in and, seeing how my post processing comp is still in bits, I'm not going to have anything to post for a little while yet. I'm sure there are other members out there who are just as time poor as me. :(

[kiwi]

yeah, I dunno about that, I for one never enter competitions, 365/11 things etc,. they just dont push my buttons in general, I dont feel inferior because of it

If you dont want critique on your photos, who just want to share, there's a place for that, not for critique, those that do I would have thought want to improve their photography and grasp at any comment like one might a piece of gold falling from the sky

I really believe that if you want to improve your photography you need to put your photos up.

I really dont get those that say they dont care what anyone thinks of their photos. It really confuses me.

[rellik666]

I agree to a certain extent with you, but only to a degree. There is a feeling of technical merit rather than emotional here, but I think that is more to do with the fact most people, not all, but most come here to learn. And I think to learn you have to have people that are prepared to point you in the right direction.

I think this site has a good mix of both photography and off topic to have a good community. I haven't come across the
'cause we know what is good and you don't side of things ever if I am honest though.

It is difficult as at the end of the day this is a photography forum and unless people post photos what is the point. It is a fine line but whilst I think it would be nice if more people posted for the fact they want to share, a lot of people come here to learn and want feedback.

[Xenedis]

yeah, I dunno about that, I for one never enter competitions, 365/11 things etc,. they just dont push my buttons in general, I dont feel inferior because of it

And nor should you.

52/365 things have no appeal to me either, and for a while I didn't bother with competitions.

There are lots of ways to contribute to this site.



I really believe that if you want to improve your photography you need to put your photos up.

I tend to agree. Reading and writing critiques, as well as looking at lots of images, and listening to judge commentary, also helps a lot.


I really dont get those that say they dont care what anyone thinks of their photos. It really confuses me.

People who make that claim probably don't need validation from others. They're happy doing what they're doing, irrespective of whether or not anyone else likes it.

[Mark L]

I mainly just read. I have posted pics along time ago but that was when I was new to photography. I am now at the point where I know if my picture is what I want or not, and basically I couldnt care less what others thought. Dont want their critique or their praise. I feel that those are the two main reasons people post to get praise, or a few, and I mean a few actually want a specific recommendation to guide them.

Until I recently get my first DSLR I joined AP to read, and look at others photographs as an education in itself. So although you may not want critique or praise, by posting photographs you may be allowing others to learn, just by viewing what you want in your photograph. (Great photo, how did you do that? Interesting photo, why did you do that?)

[kiwi]

I understand what you are saying but it's very demotivational to post a picture and get very little, or no, or only pity feedback

[Mark L]

However if you're at this stage:-

. I have posted pics along time ago but that was when I was new to photography. I am now at the point where I know if my picture is what I want or not, and basically I couldnt care less what others thought. Dont want their critique or their praise.

then you don't need to contribute other than posting some photographs so others can learn from them. For someone like AdamR it won't matter if its "very demotivational to post a picture and get very little, or no, or only pity feedback"
I presumed he learnt something from AP. How does he help someone else learn something from AP?
As you've pointed out kiwi, there is the not for critique forum, there's also tutorial, hints and tips and the whole help and advise sections of AP.
Maybe the Members Photos forums could be divided in two areas, Constructive Critique and For The Education Of Others (no critique, but questions welcome) sub-forum:eek:

[kiwi]

True, but I think Adam is a minority.

I post sport shots to show, to maybe lead by example, but mostly to hear people's views.

[Mark L]

I understand what you are saying but it's very demotivational to post a picture and get very little, or no, or only pity feedback

On the other hand I posted this Red-winged Parrot photo (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?88243-Red-winged-Parrot&p=886821#post886821) as much to let birders see a bird that hasn't been posted much on AP as to get CC. Any CC will by appreciated, but that's kind of not why I posted it.
Sometimes unless you ask for specific CC, it's hard for some to know where to start. I could have asked "what could I do to make this better", and the first reply I would expect is " get a better lens!" I could say" I'm photographing things in RAW and having difficulty making the colours look right on my screen, how the ..... do I get my head around this PP stuff", but I'll give that a few more weeks, And like Adam, read.
Not sure I'm addressing "Why don't you post any (more) pictures ?" Hopefully we're addressing why some should post more pictures.

[jim]

Well said Mark L.

Somewhat baffled by the idea that you post in the CC sections just to get CC.

I tend to feel that posting in the "Not for Critique" section is an admission that the photo depicts something of interest, but isn't meant to be taken seriously as a photo. Whereas the CC part of the site is nicely organised thematically, is where most of the action is, and seems the ideal place to show a photo for whatever reason.

I joined AP because I like photographs. I like looking at other peoples, I want to show off some of mine, and I have no friends or family who have the slightest interest in photography qua photography.

I see something wonderful, I post what I think is a pretty decent image of it, and the first three comments want to second guess my choice of shutter speed, I feel a bit let down.

Notwithstanding that you often get valuable CC this way.

[CherylB]

I would say that, for as many members there are on AP, there are as many reasons why people don't post pictures - even for just some of the time! I have my own reasons for not being all that active on AP lately. Some of the comments in the previous posts in this thread I can say probably apply in my own case, and some certainly don't (and no, I'm not going to say which is which! ;) )

My question to you Darren, is, why does it matter? Everybody goes through cycles, everybody learns in their own way, everybody knows what they are comfortable with "giving" and "receiving", and so on. The more members there are on AP, the greater the chance there is a wider variety of human experience amongst us. People come here for various reasons. Some go, some stay. Who are you, who am I, who is anyone, to say that a member's reason for not posting pictures is in any way detrimental to AP? As Xenedis has said, there are other ways in which people contribute.

BTW - I haven't voted, but going by the poll results, I'm thinking most respondents are thinking along the same lines! ;)

[alextdel]

My view is that people don't post images much (if at all) for any or a combination of the following reasons:


they're intimidated by some of the images visible on this site;
they don't feel their images meet some perceived standard;
they've posted before and received little, unhelpful or no critique; or
they're here for other reasons (eg, sharing knowledge, answering questions, etc.).


While the solicitation or provision of critique is to be encouraged, some people simply won't feel comfortable doing either or both.

I have always got good CC on my photos but I agree partly with the sentiment of the first two points made by Xenedis. However, it would would useless to have a site like this with below average and less than best photos submitted because the 'good' photographers didn't want to show off - that's part of the point isn't it. We obviously need to see the best. I have to say though that I enjoy the competitions even though I know my photos suck.
This is a good supportive forum for wannabe as well as guru photographers, so overall, great site.

[Xenedis]

Everybody goes through cycles

That's an important point, and one I perhaps had not considered until you made it.

For me, and perhaps for a lot of people, photography is cyclic.

Life is cyclic.

I stopped shooting for a number of months. I didn't shoot my primary photographic subject interest for over six months until last week.

I stopped organising or attending AP meets, I stopped going to my camera club's weekly meets, I stopped competing, and I wasn't posting much on AP either.

Perhaps some people aren't posting photos now because of other elements of life getting in the way. They may be too busy, sick, tired, demotivated (as I was) or taking a break to pursue something else.

What really matters the most is that:


there are other ways in which people contribute.

Posting photos is but one part of the formula.

For my part, I like to publish post-processing tutorials here too, as well as answer questions, offers critiques, organise and attend meets, and dabble in the weekly/monthly competitions.

My interest in all of those aspects of this place has its highs and lows.

It's important to recognise when you're mentally in a certain headspace (or not, as the case may be) and to just go with the flow. Nobody is owed an explanation, and one needs to take whatever journey one is taking at the time, and end up where one ends up -- hopefully in a good place at the end of it all.

[kiwi]

Cheryl, to specifically answer your question ask why it matters ?

It matters if people post pictures
It matters if people contribute other ways too
It matters if people weren't posting pictures for the wrong reasons (there are at least a couple of members who will now start posting pictures)

As I said in post #144 up to each individual to determine why they do of don't, there's plenty of reasons for both

But I'll maintain that as a general observation that people who post pics learn quicker and that the forum overall benefits.

[AdamR]

I agree from the point of view that posting does help others learn. I dont really have a defence against that. In fact I have nothing to reply for that. I did learn a lot from this forum, books, magazines, shows etc. Hmmm makes me wonder. Perhaps I use my blog as my way to share and contribute to the bigger community. I like the blog views because it doesnt encourage feedback its more a way for me to show my perspective. Hmmm. I actually have been given a bit to think about.

[kipp]

being a newbie, i have posted a few pic's and got some excellent advice, and some not so useful.
i think you have to explain what advice you want to receive, as well as an idea of where you are with your photography and what you were trying to acheive.

however saying this i dont generally give CC, because i feel that apart from composition and personal opinions, my understanding of photography is still very limited and i dont want to give anybody wrong/unhelpfull advice.

hopefully as my understanding grows i will feel more confident in assessing the faults with a photo give advice that will help.
i do like to look at others images and learn from them, and think to myself i would have tried to do it like this

[alextdel]

I agree partially with Apollo62, that if the two word feedback were the only comments seen then there is little value, but my understanding was that this site has an aim to support photography and photographer, some of whom really would value and be encouraged by a few 'well done' or 'great capture' comments. (I dream of having one of you lot reply 'nice shot' to one of my photos!). So overall Kiwi is right
... I think I'd prefer 20 nice shot comments rather than nothing

[ricktas]

I'm a lot more careful about what I do post on this forum because the editing rules (30 minute limit) don't allow me to change my mind at a later date and alter any part of the post (eg. a link, text or image). It's forum policy, and that's fine, but that change in policy has certainly changed my view about posting.

It's a shame, IMHO, that the forum works that way as many others don't and I definitely post stuff (words and pics) on other forums that I won't post here (or any other forums with the same rule) ONLY for the reason I've mentioned.

JJ

Firstly it is 60 minutes and it was introduced ages ago after a series of edits to posts, that made threads look ridiculous and in once case made another member look like their post was nasty. A member changed the photo presented after several critiques, then others viewed the thread and made comments about what they saw, and how another critique was picky and unjust. Yet they were critiquing a different photo to the one critiqued by the first member. We decided to allow a 60 minute edit window after several experiences like that. In one instance a member edited their comments in an off-topic heated discussion, that then made someone else's reply to them seem like a personal attack, when it wasn't, but the change of wording caused a few issues and ended up with us removing the thread from the site.

So whilst I get that editing a post is helpful, I feel 60 minutes is plenty of time to do so, with consideration to the implications of open slather editing as I have detailed above.