Are you a sport & event photographer ? Join SEPA

[kiwi]

If so, I'd like to invite you to join SEPA

http://www.facebook.com/groups/sepaustralia
:)

[ricstew]

Darren could you please explain the criteria? I get the sport bit but what does event entail? Award nights for companies? The eistedford? I am not sure what an 'event' is :o
cheers
Jan

[kiwi]

Any of those plus things like the abbey medieval festival, community fairs and concerts etc

A very broad definition

[ricktas]

I had a read and have some questions?

* What makes your FB group any different to AIPP etc. It appears to just be developing as another 'professional' member body?
* How are you going to check your members for working with children? Are you going to do police checks etc?
* How will you deal with a member breaching your rules? If you put your group out there as 'safe' photographers for working with children, the impact of a 'rogue' photographer could be devastating, and could possibly result in legal action against the group.
* How is what you offer any different from the card system in Queensland that allows people to work with children?

Whilst I commend you on the concept, I think you need to do a lot more work before you start inviting people to be members.

[kiwi]

Thanks for your questions

Sport and event photographers don't usually join aipp for a variety of reasons. This is not replacing aipp membership.

I'm not doing police checks, that's why you need to provide government supplied blue cards or similar credentials from other states

I suppose the possibility of a rogue photographer always exists, as with a rogue plumber, I can only do minimal checks and accept members with a reference from other members

I'm happy to do more work on this but you have to start somewhere don't you

What constructive ideas anyone has are welcome and people are free to join or not, there's no fee.

[ricktas]

Thanks for your questions

Sport and event photographers don't usually join aipp for a variety of reasons. This is not replacing aipp membership.

I'm not doing police checks, that's why you need to provide government supplied blue cards or similar credentials from other states

I suppose the possibility of a rogue photographer always exists, as with a rogue plumber, I can only do minimal checks and accept members with a reference from other members

I'm happy to do more work on this but you have to start somewhere don't you

What constructive ideas anyone has are welcome and people are free to join or not, there's no fee.

So for those states that do not have blue cards or a similar system, what are you planning to do?

[kiwi]

Nothing, but to be a member you still have to have agree to the code of conduct which does at least least to some enhanced protection of images of children, peer review and a certain standard of actual ability. Better than what occurs now.

But yes, I should beef that up a bit re these issues

[Chris Michel]

Nothing, but to be a member you still have to have agree to the code of conduct which does at least least to some enhanced protection of images of children, peer review and a certain standard of actual ability. Better than what occurs now.

But yes, I should beef that up a bit re these issues

Sounds like an interesting idea , but when it comes to peer review.. who are you going to have do this... have seen this type of thing done in other forms and when you have so called peers making judgement decisions , which could be based on personality may cloud your judgement... or even just the skill level of the peers making the decisions.. perhaps someone who is in or has come from an editorial background would be best on doing this.. we tried several years ago with a teachers group like this for after hours tutoring, but it came down to personality clashes more then actual so called skill.

[Kym]

Why is it not SEPANZ?? :cool: :confused013

[kiwi]

Chris

Myself and other admin members will do the peer review. It will be along the same lines as the process at sports shooter, i think I'm pretty fair but I suppose what you describe is possible.

[kiwi]

Why is it not SEPANZ?? :cool: :confused013

excellent point, I may still change that

[Chris Michel]

Chris

Myself and other admin members will do the peer review. It will be along the same lines as the process at sports shooter, i think I'm pretty fair but I suppose what you describe is possible.

I am only playing the devils advocate here but you describe yourself on the sepa site - My name is Darren White, I am a part time professional sport photographer based in Brisbane Australia. I own and operate Peak Action Images (http://www.PeakActionImages.c​om). I mainly photograph junior sport (I just love it)
How then does this give you required experience and or knowledge to decide who is in and out and who has a port folio worthy of joining and who dosnt... wouldnt this be better suited to a full time media / professional tog or photo editor. ??
I did some research on sports shooter and the guys that make the decisions there are long time full time professional togs with a massive amount of experience in the media and major sport.

and surely does having 2 camera bodies mean you are any better then someone who is a full time professional who only uses one ( such as some of the professional news togs and freelance guys i have met at education press calls

[kiwi]

I think I have enough knowledge and experience to judge whats minimum professional quality in sport and event photography, if you think otherwise that's ok, but I'm comfortable with that position. If there are more qualified members to do that who join and offer better appraisals thats fine too and would be great.....maybe we will and maybe we won't.

I don't consider having just one camera as acting professionally, no matter what the camera. And yes, one camera needs to be good one, as well as the gear to ensure that clients can expect a hig level of service. If the entry criteria is either too loose or too tight I'll review it. But there does need to be a certain standard.

Thanks for your feedback though, all much valued

[Longshots]

personally I applaud anyone prepared to put together an organisation.

However - not to be negative, I think this statement Darren is both quite wrong, and misleading:
"Sport and event photographers don't usually join aipp for a variety of reasons."

In reality there are many photographers out there working both full time and part time who choose not be a member of any organisation, the AIPP included. To make this type of statement is I'm afraid, not based on actual knowledge of what many AIPP members do. I'd suggest that this is a slightly reckless comment thats based on nothing more than your personal opinion and not based on facts.

Having said that I do applaud your move and would happily support your efforts.

[kiwi]

Thanks William, re the aipp membership I guess I formed my opinion using my own personal peer group and others I know, ESP sport shooters and also talking to another aipp organizing person re this during pma, I'm happy to be wrong on this, and obviousy am. You're right in that they probably don't find a home anywhere really, ESP part timers.

[Longshots]

good reasons to supply a home then :)

FWIW I do happen to know of a good number of both sports and events shooters who are AIPP members. Doesnt mean everyone is though. And I know of plenty of both sports and events shooters who're members of ACMP as well. Just putting that info out there :)

[Scotty72]

Good idea but, 2 things concern me:

1) Fostering this culture of 'you can't trust people these days'

2) your list of approved photographers is really setting you up for serious consequences.

Scotty

[Chris Michel]

its smells like a private group, similar to a an almost self appointed elitist type group. I googled some of your members and only a few come up working regularly in the press, Kanaris, Schembri , chris cutler and to a smaller extent wroe and theo, these guys seem to be the senior guys on your list who appear in major photo agencies and newspapers / new agencies websites almost every day. Are they doing any of the judging. These would be the guys you should use.

[reaction]

A simple question:
What is the benefit to the part timer to join this org? What recognition can one expect as a member (esp if it's a FB only group which isn't public, and people like me can't see the page)?

[ving]

so this is for pro togs, not just ppl who like shooting spot right?

[geoffsta]

Nice idea Darren. But what about some of us hobbiest that dabble in sport. Can we join, and submit images as well. Or is it pro's only.

[kiwi]

Good idea but, 2 things concern me:

1) Fostering this culture of 'you can't trust people these days'

2) your list of approved photographers is really setting you up for serious consequences.

Scotty

A) horse is bolted on that one.

B) disclaimers are in effect, or will be re liability. Membership will be dependent on entry criteria being met, but I think I understand your concern.

Can it be mitigated ?

[kiwi]

Members so far are just people on my friends list really, is that elitist ? No, that's not the intent. Is it going to be for everyone ? No. Anyone can join if they meet some quite basic and standard criteria which is open for discussion but aims to be fair. So, no, I reject that it's elitist but like sportsshooter it's an achievement to be a member.

[kiwi]

so this is for pro togs, not just ppl who like shooting spot right?

It's for part time or full time professionals (though I suspect most members will be in the part timer category) If you do or intend to charge anything for sport and event work then you are able to join. The eventual (I hope) benefits for members are more aligned to those soliciting for paid work.

What do you think though? Open it up ? Im not sure.

[kiwi]

A simple question:
What is the benefit to the part timer to join this org? What recognition can one expect as a member (esp if it's a FB only group which isn't public, and people like me can't see the page)?

It's an open group but with membership needing approval

Benefits of membership if it takes off are articulated on the site in my opinion, but I'm happy to elaborate

[kiwi]

got a direct answer to this darren?

I think I just answered this

The answer is I thought it had most relevance to those charging, a little, or a lot, part time or full time. But I'm also aware that many qualify re quality, code of conduct and gear but for whatever reason are purely amateur

So, yeah, what do you think ?

[I @ M]

Interesting concept ---- however --- launching it on FB is a worry as it seems that everybody and their ewe dog is looking for an alternate platform that doesn't look quite as cheap. :rolleyes:

[kiwi]

Interesting concept ---- however --- launching it on FB is a worry as it seems that everybody and their ewe dog is looking for an alternate platform that doesn't look quite as cheap. :rolleyes:

Yes, but, it's a low cost and easy social virus way of establishment. IF it goes viral then I'll look for sponsorship to establish a website. I think Facebook and soon to be google+ are becoming more acceptable medians for "serious" marketing.

[ving]

I think I just answered this

The answer is I thought it had most relevance to those charging, a little, or a lot, part time or full time. But I'm also aware that many qualify re quality, code of conduct and gear but for whatever reason are purely amateur

So, yeah, what do you think ?yeah sorry about that, you did... i got distracted posting and you answered in the mean time.

should you open it up? no i dont think so... unless you want to open it to those that want to become pro sport togs, in which case you could run workshops, etc... but thats a whole different kettle of fish.
i think the idea of an association for pro sport togs in its self is a great idea. obviously not for me tho but still.... :th3:

[I @ M]

Yes, but, it's a low cost and easy social virus way of establishment. IF it goes viral then I'll look for sponsorship to establish a website. I think Facebook and soon to be google+ are becoming more acceptable medians for "serious" marketing.

Do you want quality or quantity?

[ving]

i think FB is actually a good sounding board for getting things going. obviously once established a propper dot com will be better.

[kiwi]

200 high quality photographers throughout the Country is my target.

A website is a big investment, to attract new members is my primary initial goal and I think Facebook is a perfect mechanism to do this, don't you ?

[ricktas]

I wish you the very best with it Darren, though I think you have probably launched about 3 months to early and should have done a lot more ground work prior to announcing it.

[kiwi]

i think FB is actually a good sounding board for getting things going. obviously once established a propper dot com will be better.

I'm actually not so sure. Im of the opinion websites are old abd becoming increasingly redundant. Linkedin is probably next actually.

[kiwi]

I wish you the very best with it Darren, though I think you have probably launched about 3 months to early and should have done a lot more ground work prior to announcing it.

Ive been thinking about it for awhile, it's still in startup and the working documents are draft, I'm really not sure how me working in a vacuum for three months would make s big difference ?

It's only known to my existing social network either here or on facebook, so , I'd prefer to think I'm in focus group mode still really

[Scotty72]

This may end up a bit like the association for tutors. It is an 'industry' that needs no qualification to join, no professional standards to maintain and no enforceable professional penalties.

So, few tutors (Inc me) belong and even fewer customers seek their referrals. Most work is picked up via word of mouth.

I'm sure a fair bit of your sales come via this method.

Scotty

[atky]

Great Idea

[ving]

I'm actually not so sure. Im of the opinion websites are old abd becoming increasingly redundant. Linkedin is probably next actually.

That they are... but i think it is too soon to base soley on fb. It seems to me most orgs have a .com and a fb page.
I know nothing tho. Just typing my thoughts. :)
Wish u the best on it mate. Should be good.

Sent from my TR718D

[Scotty72]

I tend to think that FB is becoming a victim of its own success and its own stupid privacy policies. The numbers of new users is seriously declining : far outstripping the numbers of dormant users (though FB make this hard to confirm).

[Wayne]

I would have interest, however don't and won't use Facebook. I am a former NSW police officer, and 10 years in the job makes for a few undesirable 'friends'

[kiwi]

I can undertake that Wayne. But there is no reason not to create a Facebook alias much Lik you have done here and the privacy controls ar such that you don't need to disclose any information to any public person anyhow.

Scotty, I agree that facebook growth has tailed off in America, but there is still international growth and still 750 million members, it's still #1, maybe in a couple of years it will be google+

[reaction]

As many have said, fb has little legitimacy, and if you ask ppl now to join with a fake alias how less legitimate are you making it?
If you are serious about this, a URL costs $10/yr and cheap hosting costs $2 a month. Sure it won't be the most reliable, but all you need now is a list of members and a few static pages.
Why would any legitimate tog join a FB page? And if you end up with a FB group full of amateurs, where will your legitimacy for the group come from?
At this point any one of us can start a group on FB and be just as legitimate as your group - that is a bad thing. It's just another FB contest where those with the most 'friends' wins.

[kiwi]

I'm not saying fake, but it can be private

I agree fb is an interim step

[crf529]

Don't take anything the wrong way, I commend you for what you are trying to achieve.

I think using FB as a sounding board for the development of your image as an organisation and what is essentially your mission statement (not to mention the SOP's which you will manage and run the group by), is a bad idea.

By all means use the forums to gain input and peer review of your ideas and where you want to go/how you intend to get there. But for something like this to work as you have suggested, a big element is that you become a known and respected group. You don't want to cause yourself grief down the track having to try and shake a 'nothing FB group' image, when you could wait in the shadows until it is all concrete and launch at least a decent web page with full details. Perception counts for alot as is usual in life, if something looks or sounds inferior/dodgy, would you waste time perusing it beyond face value?

You want to bring together a respected and sought after collection of sports photographers? Show people. Don't use half measures and give them every reason to want you shooting for them, or proving their worth to be accepted.

[kiwi]

Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate it and I can see your point of view. FB Groups are a dime a dozen and are hardly sticky or business appropriate.

But, I dont really see any other way of spraeding the concept and word quickly than to use FB as a launch pad. With all these things it will be perseverance and a commitment to improve and deliver outcomes that will matter I hope longer term.

But, I have today registered a domain name (www.sepa.org.au) so will hope to have a website up and running in time for the targeted public launch date of 1st September

I've also at this stage, pending feedback, added a new member category called "SEPA Associate" for those sport & event photographers that are hobbyists or dont qualify to be a full member regarding quality and equipment pre-requisites. Will see how that goes

[crf529]

I've also at this stage, pending feedback, added a new member category called "SEPA Associate" for those sport & event photographers that are hobbyists or dont qualify to be a full member regarding quality and equipment pre-requisites. Will see how that goes

I think that's a fantastic idea. Certainly enables you to extend your reach into the photography world without compromising your key values and objectives for the group. All provided though that you can implement it in such a way that keeps a nice clean separation between the two levels of 'membership'. You want others to feel a part, but you also want to keep a nice big gap between true members and non-members.

[kiwi]

http://www.sepaustralia.com.au/ :D

[Scotty72]

You might want to fix up the silly errors of punctuation ^ it ? make;s the site % seem silly@

[kiwi]

Thanks, I'm slowly fuxing it as I go

[kiwi]

You might want to fix up the silly errors of punctuation ^ it ? make;s the site % seem silly@

Ive fixed a couple, thanks, if you see any others that'd be great to point them out. Sometimes I cant see the forest for the trees.

[reaction]

what happened to the org site?
i thot that was nicer

[ving]

be good once it is well and truly fuxed up :p

early days i know but the logo (top right for those playing at home) could be smoother and a little more flash looking.
looking good for a start tho daren.

[kiwi]

what happened to the org site?
i thot that was nicer

I had to create an incorporated NPO to keep an org site, so, a bit too much for a startup.

[fillum]

http://www.sepaustralia.com.au/ :D

Kiwi I had a quick look. I know it's early days, but one of the things that struck me was the apparent contradiction between the home page ("trusted photographer", "expect a certain standard of care") and the statement at the top of the members page avoiding any responsibility. I fully understand the need for this, but wonder if this could be worded a bit more positively? Something along the lines of "SEPA operates under a published Code of Conduct and is confident that its members will conduct themselves in accordance with this code, however....", or something like that. Perhaps even finish with an invitation for prospective clients to contact a photographer in their area for a no-obligation discussion of their requirements. I think this makes the statement sound like it's aimed a bit more at helping the customer rather than just there to cuvva yo ass! :D


Cheers.

[Longshots]

I've held back from saying anything on this topic - eager to see what would develop.


I have concerns over what is being asked by those applying for membership. I've voiced those concerns to Darren, but there's been no change on that issue. For the record I have spoken to Darren and offered some thoughts on the concept.

I'm specifically concerned over the reason for a copy of your driving licence. I belong to a variety of organisations around the world, and not one has ever asked for that. For me that is a deal breaker.

Storing this level of information contains a great deal of responsibility, and I'm not comfortable that this is going to be handled correctly.

I also have concerns that on one hand the initial thought process and reason for existence is valid, but on the other hand there is a great deal of ignorance on the existing organisations that already cover areas like this.

Reinventing the wheel may be a good business/commercial decision, and there's nothing wrong with starting a business in a free market economy, but reinventing representative organisations are a dime a dozen, and there is a plethora of those available in Australia today. And that is what I consider this to be, a Business.

I dont see have a great deal of confidence in handing to what could be my competitor or competitors (in certain situations) a list of my gear, copies of some truly important documents (driving licence), with an unknown group who may not have any background or experience in this type of information gathering or any idea how or where secure storage would be managed.

Its worth noting that there are plenty of organisations with similar or better codes of conduct that are open to semi professionals, professionals - and this is what SEPA is aimed at. (Its clearly not aimed at the amateur, otherwise the word Client wouldnt be used.).

Are clients or prospective clients are seeking this type of reassurance from a group? Is it being market driven, or it because its a good business opportunity ?

Other points of concern is who selects who is an appropriate person to join, why SEPA can choose to ban a photographer - its worth pointing to the conditions of membership, which state in Capitals:

THE SEPA ADMINISTRATION TEAM HAVE FINAL DISCRETION ON MEMBERSHIP. MEMBERS MAY BE ADDED, REJECTED, DELETED, OR BANNED AT OUR TOTAL DISCRETION.

At the moment the SEPA team is Darren. So, you can be banned without reason, at SEPA Administration Teams discretion ? I would look at the law Darren, and you would need advice on that issue because I think you'd find yourself in very deep water. And please take that advice from one who's been on the Boards of Directors of both AIPP and ACMP (which btw you dont appear to recognise in your list of other Australian Photographic organisations).


The final point on the ever changing conditions of entry is this statement - again in Capitals:

THERE IS NO MEMBERSHIP FEE AT THIS TIME

"At this time" indicates to me that you have every intention of producing a membership fee in the future

I note that membership of the Facebook Group is no longer membership of the organisation - even though it was a week or so ago - now you have to apply again - with a new membership form. Which includes the specifics of copy of driving licence etc.

So my advice is either produce something that is up front, clear, concise and transparent. And do that with a management group of well recognised photographers. Also ensure that your admin team are all aware of their involvement, as the person I spoke to (listed as admin) knew very little about it, including a lack of knowledge that they were admin. If you cant do that I wouldnt do it at all, because all you will end up doing, is fractionalising that specific genre of photography more than it is right now.

[kiwi]

William,

I probably haven't got this right yet, fully admit it.

I'll make changes as suggested.

I don't have any ulterior commercial motive in this though, let me make that clear

As the first time I've done this I expect I'll make mistakes along the way.

So, I will if something's not right fix it

Any suggestions will be acted on in good faith

If it's not for you that's fine. But I am trying to make this work and do it as well as I can with my funds and in my time

[Scotty72]

The NSW RTA specifically advises its licence holders to not allow anyone to make a copy of the licence. It is starting to cause an issue in many licenced venues that are starting to favour scanning a licence / proof of age card in preference to a paper register.

The potential for fraud / ID theft is huge. Even though we could be very confident of Darren's integrity, could he guarantee against his files (actual or electronic) being stolen - along with what is very sensitive info?

I also agree on the point of the organisation's governance... I suspect there are some legal / statutory niceties to be negotiated. In this day and age, rejecting people from your organisation - because I said so - is a bit risky.

So, I think Longshots raises some very legit concerns.

Scotty

[ricktas]

Maybe it is time to look at some of your members and get a bit of a core focus group going, to help you out and develop this. I see if you continue on your own, you could burn out and it become overwhelming.

[kiwi]

And as I said, if I've made mistakes they are genuine and I'll fix them, I'm not trying to be mischievious

[Longshots]

As I said at the very begining Darren - consult with people.

I'm sorry but youre simply not doing that.

Despite offering you advice, you're ignoring it.

Its not a case of if its not for me.

Frankly I dont know who its for anymore.

If you have to invent/produce your own organisation to gain some credibility, I'm afraid I think thats a bit sad. Plenty of people do it, you wouldnt be the first. I could list about 20 - 30 around the country who have 1 - 30 members. And the main thing is producing credibility - in my view falsely.

Try moving away from changing your entry rules on a constant basis.

Sit down with people, discuss past experiences, seek proper support. Then you might move forward. At this rate, with your new option for you personally deciding who is a member and who isnt - seemingly on a whim, isnt going to work IMHO, and you will do more harm than good.

BTW I asked you to fix mistakes (copy of driving licence requirement for instance) and you havent.

I've not said anything to date publicly because I was giving you time to sort things out. But when you state that your admin team will decide on who is in and who is out, and you are the ONLY member of that admin team (well only one that is aware that they are part of your admin team! ) then I consider that to be wrong, and dangerous.

I dont think you're trying to be mischievous. But you're either ill informed on many issues of organisations that already promote, support, and represent photographers around the country, or you're deliberately ignoring what exists in an effort to produce your own group that I can help concluding is entirely self serving from a business perspective.

BTW If you want to put my concerns and others at rest, my advice would be to answer them transparently, and not continue with protests of "give me time". Again Driving licence issue ? You could also take up the suggestion of getting that core group together, which Rick suggested, as I did the moment I contacted you right at the start of this.

[kiwi]

William, I'm not ignoring at all, I've made every change last week discussed, I've not had time last two days to make changes as recently suggested, *removed - unnecessary comment* give me a chance. I've said all the stuff in the Facebook page is draft and that only friends on Facebook and here really are having input

I appreciate input, I do

Just give me some time to work through the things you are raising because you're the only one that is so far and I really am taking it all onboard

[kiwi]

And I've also said that membership etc doesn't start until September to give me a chance to do exactly that

[Longshots]

I've noted your points Darren.



But its hard to communicate with someone who says one thing and is doing the other.

Here's my issue - you posted this:


If so, I'd like to invite you to join SEPA

http://www.facebook.com/groups/sepaustralia
:)

So I joined. Then 18 hours ago - I asked you why I now needed to fill in an application form - for you to assess, if I copied my driving licence etc, and you replied that I didnt need to as the form said that AIPP members didnt need to do that - which it doesnt. And I said that to you, and you said you would address that - which you didnt.

Please read your own SEPA stuff carefully. No where on your SEPA website does it state that membership doesnt start till September - in fact is states

"The mission of SEPA is to create a society or collective of trusted photographers throughout Australia that are in the business (either part-time or full-time) of providing photography to all levels of sport and to all sorts of events, public or private. The public has every right to expect a certain standard of care when engaging with a photographer. I would hope that if the public engages a photographer who is a member of SEPA then they will be able to trust that photographer. Where children are involved this is also important."

There is a clear inference that the organisation is current, and is in place.


As a photographer who's been shooting events, among many other things for the last 3 decades, I disagree with the hint that if you're not a member of SEPA you cant be trusted. I dont like negative marketing and this is negative and casting aspersions on many ethical, decent people who have existed well before you were around and well before you came up with this concept of yours.

Are you aware that AIPP's marketing phrase emphasis on promoting photography is also Trust ?

And as I keep saying, who decides on who is "trusted" to be a SEPA member ? You.



You've apparently had plenty of time to add many new things - including the SEPA website, in the last two days, and thats while I've been asking you to clarify some points privately, thats why I've finally said something publicly.

If you spent your time on removing the concerns re the licence, and answering the points you keep saying you will address, instead of getting frustrated with someone offering you legitimate advice, and instead of constantly adding new information, new websites, new announcements, then perhaps you would progress.

[kiwi]

I only can do what I can do, it's only today or yesterday that anyone mentioned the licence which is fair enough, it was there because it wouldn't be the first time someone's joined into something I'm a member of with false credentials only there to be a fraud it cause trouble to other photographers

I'll be doing more work on it today if I can get an hour

Will it be finished or perfected no, and no doubt I'll change my mind on things as I go

But thanks for raising the issues.

[Scotty72]

A couple of points that (as far as I can tell) seem to mirror or feed off William's:

If you are not required to give over a copy of your drivers' licence if you are a member of AIPP then, what is the point? Just join them.

I think it is totally unreasonable to ask people to hand over copies of sensitive documents (perhaps sighting them is ok) but, giving someone an electronic version of a signature seems risky. When I became a teacher (a little more of a child protection issue than photographing Fred at soccer), they didn't copy stuff like that (they sighted) - only copying my birth certificate (no signature) and asking me to sign stat - decs.

I too am really starting to question the reason for being of this... it is trying to fix a problem that you are creating. If you argue that 'the horse has bolted', then most, in not all, states already have 'working with children' laws/rules etc. that already seek to address the problem that you are trying to address.

Playing devil's advocate: it can be seen as

a) I will create an organisation
b) I will create a problem in the public's mind.
c) I will look for a solution to the problem I just created in the public's mind.
d) Hey, public, the answer to the problem is this reputable organisation I have just stumbled across.

I am not saying that is your motive but, you can see my point about perceptions?

Scotty

[kiwi]

I can Scotty.

I'm making some changes this afternoon that I hope will improve the site and take as many of these concerns that I can into account.

[kiwi]

OK, Ive made quite a few changes as suggested to the website and facebook. Hopefully it goes a long way to addressing the issues raised.

Ive probably missed one or few, I'll get back to it as I can......and yes, I need help, and I'm happy if youd like to assist me.

Im still committed to this.

PM me if you see anything else in the meanwhile.

[Longshots]

, and no doubt I'll change my mind on things as I go



and there's the point that you either dont want to acknowledge, or simply refuse to understand.

At present, this is not an association. If it were, you would have a group of individuals who are all like minded and would be able to democratically produce your structure, and mission statement. My concern started when mission statements etc kept being adapted with no communication with those you'd invited to join.

I'd suggest that if you want this to be an Association that you check on what that means, and instead of all of those references to "I", replace them with "we" and have a very real communication with those interested in being part of an association, not just a singular opinion.

[kiwi]

fair enough, and im looking for others, until then i guess technically its an "I"

id prefer a "we"

[Scotty72]

There are also rules of association, constitutions etc. etc. blah, blah to consider

Are you for profit or not-for profit?

You have to fill positions: Prez, Sec. Public Officer, Treasurer etc

It has been a very long time since I was involved in anything like this but, once you start accepting fees or donations - these things become very important.

[kiwi]

Non commercial, not associated. As far as I know there is no legal requirement for me to do anything.

And I agree with you - to be a NFP you need articles of association etc

[Scotty72]

OK. This is way above my expertise.

However :p - from what I remember...

If you're not an association and not commercial, you'll still need to at least gain tax free status and possibly register some form of name so you can open a bank account etc.

Also, if it is not an association or club, what credibility will it have? And what exactly is it?

At the extreme, 'The Association of Really Excellent Photographers' sounds a lot more credible than 'Dazz's Big Idea to Set Up a Really Cool Group.'


Also, Don't non-commercial entities have to have a community purpose such as culture, education, welfare, sports, community benefit etc


Like I said, it has been forever since I was involved in these things but, you'd better get yourself a lot more informed than I am:lol:

[kiwi]

i dont need a bank account

non for profits clubs and associations all have rules, im not intending at this stage to be any of those things, or have any other status than a registered company. There is no income, no trading.

call the group what you like.

There are 1000's of facebook groups etc out there all with members

I will though call the small biz people on my return from kiwiland next week to see if there's anything I have to register or do

i havent used the words club or association anywhere as that probably has a particular legal meaning in the interim

Join it or not, really up to you :)

[Scotty72]

But, the web page says society.

Assuming you are an unincorporated entity, you'll be personally liable for everything the (whatever it is) does.

Anyway,

Good luck - I just think that Longshots had very good points - you need to look before you leap.

[kiwi]

Well, yes, but as said long ago, only a limited number of "friends" are aware of it, everything was in draft and i asked for feedback, the website was probably premature granted.

Ill do some more checking on the setup side of things

And once again all assistance is gratefully received either with suggestions or with active participation

Nothing ventured nothing gained ergo

[macmich]

kiwi
just to give you a break
do you still own a swannee or bushjacket for your trip home
have a good time
cheers macca

[kiwi]

Yes, looks grim, I'm starting in Auckland then onto chch, timaru, ashburton, then to Auckland again then up to whangarei before back home again

Won't be online much either

[macmich]

have a good trip
i can remember fishing at bay of plenty wearing a shirt/bushjaket and the old style swannee and still froze
cheers