Sydney antics

[Shelley]

Currently in Sydney with a group of students. Sydney weather is perfect.

I was dared at bondi beach to approach someone saying I was from the Sydney herald and take their photo. I promptly went up to a group of young men near surf rescue with students cracking up and teachers videoing me (now on Facebook). The guys believed me and I got a great group shot - but I didn't think too much about my settings - they were all smiling beautifully for me.

Talk about out of my comfort zone.

[Scotty72]

Well done, but I am not sure about the ethics of misrepresenting yourself. If they had simply assumed you were media = ok... but...

[Shelley]

Fair comment - itnwas a dare and I think the guys caught on. They were young and having fun and no harm was meant.

[ricktas]

Well done, but I am not sure about the ethics of misrepresenting yourself. If they had simply assumed you were media = ok... but...

Says he who has wangled his way into the media pit at events. : http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?80617-Wikileaks-support-forum

[Shelley]

I feel better now.
:)

[Scotty72]

Rick,

The difference is: I just turned up; I did not claim to be anyone; they just assumed :D

Perhaps a small difference but, an important one. :p

Scotty

[ricktas]

Rick,

The difference is: I just turned up; I did not claim to be anyone; they just assumed :D

Perhaps a small difference but, an important one. :p

Scotty

To you maybe, but in the end its just semantics! I see ZERO difference. From your comment to Shelley above, my opinion would be that you are acting as the eithics police, albeit with a tainted history yourself. What is it they say about glass houses?

I think Shelley could/should be commended on getting outside her comfort zone and doing something a bit daring.

[Longshots]

its always important to get out of your comfort zone when it comes to photography - the pity is that in this day and age its considered risky to get a group of strangers together and take their picture on a beach.

[Scotty72]

To you maybe, but in the end its just semantics! I see ZERO difference. From your comment to Shelley above, my opinion would be that you are acting as the eithics police, albeit with a tainted history yourself. What is it they say about glass houses?

I think Shelley could/should be commended on getting outside her comfort zone and doing something a bit daring.

Your last statement I totally agree with.

But, I do believe that not correcting the mis-assumptions of others is at one side of the ethical line whilst actively seeking to mis-represent yourself is on the other. I think you will find a possible legal difference as well.

Mostly, because telling people you belong to a newspaper (when you don't) is transgressing against the reputation of that newspaper.

In the same situation, you could tell them you were shooting free-lance and hoping the Herald would pick-up your photo essay (don't we all hope that one day our photos will get noticed).

My point was, you shouldn't claim you represent an organisation you don't - in much the same way that we should go around claiming to represent AP. That is all. Would YOU consider it ZERO difference if I did that? :D (not if you are smart :lol:)

Scotty

[jim]

Tend to agree with Scotty. But more important, where are the pictures?

[Shelley]

We had been to Canberra, snowfields and then Sydney. We had24 students and approx. 10 of them caught a vomiting and diaroher bug through a seven day period (12/14 yrs old), poor kids it was terrible.. we teachers were stuffed. We messed about a bit and the students were really enjoying it, do it again to cheer them up.

[Shelley]

Tend to agree with Scotty. But more important, where are the pictures?
When I get back to Perth I will show and tell - really was fun and our girls liked the guys. I have some great photos from the snowfields - Some I cannot show as they are students.

[ricktas]

My point was, you shouldn't claim you represent an organisation you don't - in much the same way that we should go around claiming to represent AP. That is all. Would YOU consider it ZERO difference if I did that? :D (not if you are smart :lol:)

Scotty

People do that every day, when they wear AP hats, AP Polo's, AP t-shirts. When no harm is done, I don't care, and I do not believe Shelley harmed anyone.

[kiwi]

I often impersonate a photographer, and a nice guy, but hardly ever at the same time

I don't think you should say you're media (or a typist for that matter) when you aren't, either explicity or implicitly

[ricktas]

I don't think you should say you're media (or a typist for that matter) when you aren't, either explicity or implicitly

Can you please tell Julia Gillard that? :D

[reflect]

I remember a collaborative shoot with another potographer and a moving pictures guy, three models, mua and gear everywhere, it all looked like a big fashion location shoot and we were approached by two young ladies with consumer grade dslr's asking what we were doing. He told them we were shooting for Vogue. Imagine our suprise, when they were sitting in the row in front of us at a lighting workshop the next week. We all had a giggle, but it goes to show you never know when something you say can come back to bite you.....still sometimes you have to expand the edges of the envelope a bit ! :th3:

[Scotty72]

Can you please tell Julia Gillard that? :D

I don't get this, did she once impersonate a journalist?

I know Mark Latham does from time to time :lol:

[Chris Michel]

I personally think the term "Media" and "Press" is used way to much by people / photographers attempting to get into events, games etc.... listened to a interesting conversation between some brisbane and gold coast actual media / newspapers togs at educational press call we had at Tweed Heads early this year re public education changes under the current federal government. They all made comments on weekend warriors / part timers / and amateurs getting media passes to events / incidents / concerts etc under dubious applications, and they just jam up photo points and get in the way of actual working press togs. Apparently this is an all to common problem .....

[Scotty72]

Still, there is no official definition of press / media: you start a blog, you are media. It must remain that way if we are to keep the press free.

[Chris Michel]

Still, there is no official definition of press / media: you start a blog, you are media. It must remain that way if we are to keep the press free.

Really - its that easy is it........ hmmmmm now to start my own Media empire but just opening a blog ..... Curious to see what some one from an actual full time working Media Agency thinks about that..

Here is a challenge then - go to Cricket Australia, Tennis Australia, the NRL, Australian Parliment, any major rock concert, any major police incident, education press call, V8 super cars, olympic games ( both summer and winter ), world cup rugby, world cup soccer, with the guise that you have a blog and that you are media and can i please have a media / press pass to get in and see what that say.

Perhaps some of the sports togs on here might be able to help out with what is required for gaining passes for major sports . But i am sure it is more then just having a blog.

As for your claim " It must remain that way if we are to keep the press free " i think you may be mixing up free speech with free press. How many truly "FREE PRESS " agencies are there in this country ??

[ving]

People do that every day, when they wear AP hats, AP Polo's, AP t-shirts. When no harm is done, I don't care, and I do not believe Shelley harmed anyone.i sometimes were my hat... makes me look like i representing some company while being sun-wise at the same time! :th3: not that i use it to get places i shouldnt be.

I am with rick. if you walk into a resricted area with and use your camera to blend in, its the same as wearing a police uniform and asking to search someones house... the camera is your uniform... its all misrepresentation.

but no harm, no foul...

good on ya shelley. I doubt i'd have the guts to do that :)

[Scotty72]

Really - its that easy is it........ hmmmmm now to start my own Media empire but just opening a blog ..... Curious to see what some one from an actual full time working Media Agency thinks about that..

Here is a challenge then - go to Cricket Australia, Tennis Australia, the NRL, Australian Parliment, any major rock concert, any major police incident, education press call, V8 super cars, olympic games ( both summer and winter ), world cup rugby, world cup soccer, with the guise that you have a blog and that you are media and can i please have a media / press pass to get in and see what that say.

Perhaps some of the sports togs on here might be able to help out with what is required for gaining passes for major sports . But i am sure it is more then just having a blog.

As for your claim " It must remain that way if we are to keep the press free " i think you may be mixing up free speech with free press. How many truly "FREE PRESS " agencies are there in this country ??

Free press as in free from the govt telling who is allowed to be part of the press and what they may say.

Just because Cricket Australia won't let you shoot their game doesn't mean your not media. It is not up to them to decide who is and is not media. It is their right to accredit whomsoever they please to attend their functions / games. Don't confuse them.

Trust me, I've had more than my fair share of run ins with cops about access at incidents. If they let Peter Hervey in, they let me in (assuming it is public land). Recently, at the Villawood detention centre riot, the cops had set aside an area (of public land) aside for media to congregate / do interviews etc. I went there for a clearer shot - the cops had no issue.

Another time, at Circular Quay, I happened to arrive in the aftermath of an assault and police chase (bloke tried to escape by swimming across the harbour). I snapped away - constable tried to stop me - I refused - her superior came to find out what the fuss was - I told him I had the right to cover an event of public land and attempt to sell my work to the media (I had no intention - but I reserve the right). He told her to back off.

So, don't mix up 'the media' with media accreditation by individual organizations.

Chanel 7 are not allowed to film the cricket, world cup or (now) the Olympics. Do they now cease to be media?

[Scotty72]

i sometimes were my hat... makes me look like i representing some company while being sun-wise at the same time! :th3: not that i use it to get places i shouldnt be.

I am with rick. if you walk into a resricted area with and use your camera to blend in, its the same as wearing a police uniform and asking to search someones house... the camera is your uniform... its all misrepresentation.

but no harm, no foul...

good on ya shelley. I doubt i'd have the guts to do that :)

If you happen to be wearing a Coca-Cola hat and someone simply assumes you work for Coca-Cola, that's their mistake. You did very little to construct the misrepresentation.

If you claim to be wearing the hat because you work for Coca-cola (when you don't) the clearly, you are deliberately constructing a misrepresentation which would almost certainly leave you open for civil if not criminal prosecution.

If someone sees me with a camera and, without asking who I am, invites me to the press pit - that is not me constructing a lie.

If I went to the event claiming to world for a news agency (when I did not) then, I will have misrepresented myself to fraudulently seek an advantage.

The two scenarios are like chalk and cheese.

As for your impersonating police analogy - that is clear ridiculous.

To be a journo there are no licences, legislative requirement, no formal minimum qualification or training, no uniform, no oath of service etc. It is not a criminal offense to pretend to be a journo. The exact opposite of every point above is true of police and if you get caught passing yourself off as one = good luck in court.

Scotty

[ving]

If you happen to be wearing a Coca-Cola hat and someone simply assumes you work for Coca-Cola, that's their mistake. You did very little to construct the misrepresentation.

If you claim to be wearing the hat because you work for Coca-cola (when you don't) the clearly, you are deliberately constructing a misrepresentation which would almost certainly leave you open for civil if not criminal prosecutioni rest my case...
And if you cant see how the two scenarios are the same, especially to get into a restricted area or to do something only an employee can do.... i cant help ya :)



Sent from my TR718D

[Scotty72]

i rest my case...
And if you cant see how the two scenarios are the same, especially to get into a restricted area or to do something only an employee can do.... i cant help ya :)



Sent from my TR718D

Hang on!

So you are saying...

If I happen to be wearing a coca-cola hat and YOU as the manager of the coca-cola plant assume I am an employed by coca-cola (I don't say a word about if I am or am not). Because of YOUR assumption you say, 'Well come in.'

So, you are seriously saying you'd have me charged for trespass (or something) after you invited me in? :lol::lol:

Sorry, I am trying to imagine just how much the cops would laugh at you - or would they try to keep a straight face?

[Scotty72]

Or, perhaps if I had a shirt that had SCOTT written across it.

Then, someone who has a long lost cousin named Scott sees me.

He says, 'Scott, is that really you.'

I say, 'Yes, I'm Scott.'

He is so excited he forgets to check my last name, date of birth, family history etc. He just assumes I am his Scott.

So, he buys me a beer because I am Scott.

Would you have me charged with theft? :lol::lol::cool:

Or him with 'dumbness'?

[ving]

Hang on!

So you are saying...

If I happen to be wearing a coca-cola hat and YOU as the manager of the coca-cola plant assume I am an employed by coca-cola (I don't say a word about if I am or am not). Because of YOUR assumption you say, 'Well come in.'

So, you are seriously saying you'd have me charged for trespass (or something) after you invited me in? :lol::lol:

Sorry, I am trying to imagine just how much the cops would laugh at you - or would they try to keep a straight face?if that cap was considered to be all it takes to signify that you are an empolyee (ie no badges or other uniform required) then it is quite concievable that you would be let in and that is thru deceiving the staff...

but enough of the hat. what about my police uniform analogy... regardless of legal ramifications and the inherent wrongness the situation it is essentially the same. deceit thru deception of uniform.
in the same way you used a uniform (reads camera) to gain access to a restricted area. admittedly if caught you'd probably just be show the door (i dont know this for a certainty) but essentially the same, yes?

[ving]

Or, perhaps if I had a shirt that had SCOTT written across it.

Then, someone who has a long lost cousin named Scott sees me.

He says, 'Scott, is that really you.'

I say, 'Yes, I'm Scott.'

He is so excited he forgets to check my last name, date of birth, family history etc. He just assumes I am his Scott.

So, he buys me a beer because I am Scott.

Would you have me charged with theft? :lol::lol::cool:

Or him with 'dumbness'?:lol:

no i'd make a tshirt that has scott across it to get free beers to... and then tell my mates :p

ur a strange fellow scott :)

[WhoDo]

Sins of commission ... Sins of omission ... they are all the same under the law and ethics. By omitting to tell someone you are not who they think you are you are just as guilty as if you'd misrepresented yourself directly. Either way you have profited from a deception.:confused013

Shelly, a little faux pas aside, congratulations on mustering the courage to get outside your comfort zone. I'm sure you had fun doing it and I'd be willing to bet it will be much easier next time. :th3::th3:

[Scotty72]

I agree, if they say to me, oh! You must be from News Corp (for eg) and I go along with with it knowing that they have misidentified me = getting very close to the line.

But, I don't do that. In every case, no one has asked me or told me what they think I am doing.

They just assume and wave me through :)

I don't know for sure that they waving me through because they think I'm from News Corp (etc). For all I know, it might be my charm and good looks :th3:

On the occasion I'm asked who I work for, I always say I'm freelance hoping to get picked up ( which is true)

In fact, if I start questioning people's motives for waving me through, that would be rude of me. If you are invited in, it is polite to graciously accept without questioning your host's motives. :)

Scotty

[atky]

I personally think the term "Media" and "Press" is used way to much by people / photographers attempting to get into events, games etc.... listened to a interesting conversation between some brisbane and gold coast actual media / newspapers togs at educational press call we had at Tweed Heads early this year re public education changes under the current federal government. They all made comments on weekend warriors / part timers / and amateurs getting media passes to events / incidents / concerts etc under dubious applications, and they just jam up photo points and get in the way of actual working press togs. Apparently this is an all to common problem .....

You know what, did you ask any of these self riches photographers how they got a start in the industry. If you can apply through the system and get accreditation that means that someone besides the photographers think you deserve to be there. Sines when dose a photographer trying to protect his income get the right to decide who shoots what and where from?

[Chris Michel]

Actually i did ask them.. Most started as junior cadets at the paper or they started out in the dark room, or photo desk of the papers they worked at. 2 of them applied for jobs at the paper after finishing studying Photo Journalism at uni. So i guess that does give them credit in the real world.... Not sure where you get off stating that they are protecting their income.. I would believe that they actually get paid a salary thus voiding your claim that they are protecting their income....... my 5 cents worth...

[atky]

As an individual that has been published and has had accreditation for V8 supercars, Australian Super bikes, Rally Australia, etc. I can tell you with out any doubt that many of the photographers shooting these events started as freelancers submitting images to publications on spec. Many have other incomes (dose that make them armatures clogging up the photo points) they have professional attitudes and produce professional results, as for the employees of news papers most would be struggling to produce the quality of images these "part time weekend warriors" produce. So yes I think they are protecting there income. I'm not saying there not very capable or even excellent photographers but they shoot people flowers and the results of car crashes. There are however some very good sports shooters working for papers but you know most of them struggle to produce good interpretations of motorsport.
My 2 cents worth.
For the record I find the term as used by those photographers "weekend warrior" offensive.

[kiwi]

Where there is bitterness is where the part timer or hobbiest gets credentials on the basis of providing free images to that media outlet.....and I think that's fair enough

[Scotty72]

Where there is bitterness is where the part timer or hobbiest gets credentials on the basis of providing free images to that media outlet.....and I think that's fair enough

No way!

There are plenty of industries where volunteers undermine the professionals.

Have you ever driven someone to/from the airport? You're taking food out of the cabbie's mouth. Often people will drive someone to 'get in good' with someone (a girl - I was guilty of that in the past :th3:).

So, I am doing that same - providing a service for free in order to gain recognition - at the expense of a pro.

Teachers are constantly undermined by unqualified 'tutors' who often do it for little or no money to gain credit for various community initiatives.

I'm sure tax agents are constantly undermined by Uncle Bob. etc. etc.

Photographers are not a special case. If they are good enough... they will survive.

[kiwi]

There is a difference, this is direct competition, people are doing it on a repetitive and unpaid basis flooding the market with zero cost images. I never said photographers were a special case and Im sure there are other industries that are similar, but Im not sure there are many where so many people will do work repetitively like this for fun and provide similar output to a similar market. If you are good enough ? There were 24 photographers at the Super 15 final, all good enough, all supplying 500 images to x number of outlets. What impact do you think on the net return 5 people there providing images totally for free have to the overall $ per photographer for the other 19 available ? None ?

Im not saying you should care a rats about that, Im just trying to indicate why they might grizzle from time to time.

[Scotty72]

There is a difference, this is direct competition, people are doing it on a repetitive and unpaid basis flooding the market with zero cost images. I never said photographers were a special case and Im sure there are other industries that are similar, but Im not sure there are many where so many people will do work repetitively like this for fun and provide similar output to a similar market. If you are good enough ? There were 24 photographers at the Super 15 final, all good enough, all supplying 500 images to x number of outlets. What impact do you think on the net return 5 people there providing images totally for free have to the overall $ per photographer for the other 19 available ? None ?

Im not saying you should care a rats about that, Im just trying to indicate why they might grizzle from time to time.

Maybe there are just too many photographers on the market. We keep hearing about falling newspaper / magazine sales and people are very reluctant to pay for online content (Crikey.com.au had a very good article on why 'Paywall' online newspapers in Oz will be nothing more than a boutique market).

If I am a newspaper owner and someone who is a decent 'tog offers to supply pics for nix (free entry and sideline spot) = why would I pay someone $$$ unless their quality was so much better. Simiarly, I guess if someone came to me with free Super 15 finals tickets on the sideline in exchange for photos - I'd do it:lol:. State of Origin = na... yawn! Women's beach volleyball :D:p:o

When I tutor, I am constantly undermined by uni students. All I can do is be better - I am 'better enough' as I have all the work I want despite charging double.

It's all about competition... Unfortunately, you are competing in a shrinking market.

[WhoDo]

Ummm ... talk about hijacking a thread, guys! I'll bet Shelley is wishing she didn't post at all at this point. :o

[kiwi]

i dont get the thread hijack thing really, i mean, do you all get up at a pub and move to a new pub or table just because the conversation changes tack ? It never worries me personally, it's just conversational.

[ving]

i dont get the thread hijack thing really, i mean, do you all get up at a pub and move to a new pub or table just because the conversation changes tack ? It never worries me personally, it's just conversational.yeah all the time :p

[Chris Michel]

Quote " When I tutor, I am constantly undermined by uni students. All I can do is be better - I am 'better enough' as I have all the work I want despite charging double.

It's all about competition... Unfortunately, you are competing in a shrinking market."

I agree with this statement 100% - i am a teacher ( casual at the moment due to making a sea change and lack there of full time teachers here on the north coast ). And i make more money out of tutoring after hours then i do mon to fri ( 9am to 3.30pm) , and yes i fight with uni students and yr 12 students offering their services in the tutoring field.

I am interested in what kiwi said about the super 15 rugby and the number of togs their. I was at origin 3 all be it in the extreme nose bleed section, but i could see that there was at least 30 toggs on the sideline, i wondered where in hell do all their pics go...???

[atky]

Just a quick point, professional attitude means they charge for what they do as do I.

[kiwi]

I was one of those 24 photographers at origin and all my pictures went to one magazine. There was getty and AP who provide to wire news services, action photos who are the official nrl photographers and also provide to press and other magazines and then there were newspaper photographers for courier mail and Sydney morning herald. There was a girl there with a kit lens basically and I'm not sure what that was about. I'm not sure how many photos will be used in actual print overall, perhaps 100? Altogether. Hard to know.

I know when I shoot for media I'm happy if they run just one photo.

[kiwi]

Oopsie double post

[Dave Clifford]

Shelley, I am not having a personal dig.

I find the fact that teachers would be in on such a stunt to be completely idiodical. I say this as a photojournalist, yes that is my title as listed with the Media Entertainment and Arts Alliance and on such membership card, and yes I practice both photography and journalism for printed media (just to clarify).

I firmly believe this is the sort of actions that has the photography industry rated not much higher than car salesmen, as you are not the only one to do this and unfortunately won't be the last.

I would like to see more people prepared to adopt the code of ethics of either the AIPP, ACMP, MEAA, this way there may be a chance the image could improve. Even if only as a personal thing. If you don't wish to join a professional body doesn't mean that we can not read and adopt their Codes of Ethics/Conduct.

I have not read every post in this topic and wont comment on the accreditation issue except to say "if you have a legitimate reason to be there apply for credentials, if not enjoy watching from the stands".

[Dave Clifford]

Actually I will put my 2 cents worth in on the whole accreditation, shooting events path of this thread.

How many photographers here hold public liability, professional indemnity and camera equipment insurance specific to their photography?

How many photographers here would be prepared and capable of attending an event and be able to supply a dozen images fully processed, captioned and uploaded to the end user within 30-45 mins of the event concluding? or even upload images on a regular basis during a match or event? an example of this would be during the tennis this year I was shooting on center court and I was approached by the organisers and asked if I could get some action shots of a young player on another court, when I got down there they were two games from the end of the match. I basically had 8 points to get the shots (luckily for me they were two very drawn out games ;-)

How many photographers here would be prepared to st out, with their equipment in pouring rain or blazing sunshine?

This may sound elitist, but the truth is, this is the sort of things you need to think about before even looking at applying for accreditation.

Next comes, where are my images going to be used? do I have a legitimate media / team / organisation outlet for the images.

If and when these questions have been answered, then apply through the required manner.

If you are serious about wanting to be an accredited photographer at a function /event / sport then have a look for someone who does the sort of work your interested in and build up a dialogue with them. You will be surprised at much assistance / knowledge you will gain from doing this than just talking your way into a spot and hoping for the best.

But, at the end of the day, IF a person has the credentials hanging around their neck I don't see any point in us complaining, as Steve has said, the people approving the applications have their reasons and the person has been approved.

[kiwi]

Well said DC.

[Shelley]

Not sure where this thread has gone and no offense taken. It was not a dig at professionals, just some harmless fun and I am sure you all have done something spur of the moment, wasnt really thinking about professionals out there- sorry. But I do love to have a bit of fun before I die.

[Shelley]

Oopsy, bit too much wine on my last night in beautiful Sydney. I will go back to my bird threads now :o

[kiwi]

Meh, what you did was pretty harmless I reckon.

[Mark L]

Words are amazing things. If Shelley had said something like "I'm trying to get a photographers job at the S.M.H. ..............", I'll bet she would have got the same photo, and this interesting thread may not have happened.

[Art Vandelay]

I'm a bit keen for a job in the media, anyone care to give me a crash course in phone tapping ? :D

[mrDooba]

I'm a bit keen for a job in the media, anyone care to give me a crash course in phone tapping ? :D

Art, your asking for trouble with that one;)

[Art Vandelay]

Maybe I should go find a pommy forum to ask for help. :D

[Scotty72]

Ask Rupert?