All is not what it seems

[I @ M]

The best way to be a professional photographer is to simply tell anyone who will listen that you are one.

Start one or more web sites and a blog and loudly proclaim that only professional photographers are capable of producing the goods. It doesn't really matter whether the images you post on the web sites are any good or not of course because you have the AIPP accredited logo on your web page.
At least that seems to be the approach of one that I encountered yesterday.
Being an inquisitive type I headed over to the AIPP web page and entered just about every word associated with the person, their web pages and business names through the search function on the AIPP search page.
No results found --- maybe the search function is less than optimal I thought. A quick phone call should clear that up then and after a conversation with the Melbourne office and passing on the details of the web site with the AIPP logo it turns out that the web site owner / photographer had merely "borrowed" the AIPP logo. Needles to say the logo is no longer on those web pages, somehow I don't think that the AIPP staff were very happy to see such things on the net.

So for all the aspiring pros out there, it seems that all you have to do is want to be a pro and therefore you are.

99% the truth, the first and last sentences are a little "tongue in cheek".

[ricstew]

sharp intake of breath! Oooh how naughty!..........but it doesn't surprise me any more :(
Does the average punter know who the AIPP is? Do the majority care?
cheers
Jan

[I @ M]

Does the average punter know who the AIPP is? Do the majority care?


The average punter being --- those who are looking to employ a photographer and whilst they may not know of the AIPP they are more than likely to be impressed with the logo that says the photographer is an "accredited professional photographer" in much the same way as many trades / businesses have accreditation from a body that recognises their work to be of a certain standard.
It is a reassurance to a potential customer and a valuable marketing tool.

[ricktas]

I hope they took more action than just asking the logo be removed. Using and professing to be part of a professional body of any sort, when you are not, is pathetic and in my opinion a direct attempt to appear to hold a status that you do not.

[PH005]

We see this type of fruad everywhere, dont we ? Doctors, Mechanics, even War Veterens. Very sad. I only hope that people hadn't forked out their money and then were not satisfied with the results. I hope this persom is not a member HERE !

[ricktas]

We see this type of fruad everywhere, dont we ? Doctors, Mechanics, even War Veterens. Very sad. I only hope that people hadn't forked out their money and then were not satisfied with the results. I hope this persom is not a member HERE !

Yeah, Australia used to be a place where you could trust a person's word, people where generally honest, and if their was someone in your community who was less so, everyone knew about them anyway. Low Life's exist in greater numbers these days and everyone seems to have to be alert all of the time. Sad that! No this person is not a member on AP.

[Longshots]

sharp intake of breath! Oooh how naughty!..........but it doesn't surprise me any more :(
Does the average punter know who the AIPP is? Do the majority care?
cheers
Jan



Well if the average punter does their homework, and then go to the AIPP site after doing something as simple looking for a Professional Photographer (pretty much an obvious search), in GOOGLE, and guess what ? AIPP is the very first result. So the AIPP then explains in numerous pages to potential clients, what they might consider looking for, and then offering a list of Accredited photographers who through a continual professional development system within the AIPP, can feel reasonably safe that they will get referred to a photographer who is capable, and has business insurance, and comply to a reasonable set of professional ethics.

Like any profession there is a decent association whose members both find their membership to be useful and beneficial, and of course there will be a fair number who dont agree with that and dont join. Doesnt make them any better or worse. However those individuals have no one to answer to other than themselves and their local fair trading office can do anything they dam well please - AIPP has a mediation system to investigate any member who fails to comply with a condition of membership.

Should the average punter care about the difference between a sham operator who considers it ok to use a logo of an association that they dont belong to, and one that not only acts professionally, but has an organisation that they're answerable to if everything turns bad ?

Should they also wonder if that same sham (or should that be shameful) operator who has no issue with using a logo of a professional association that they dont belong to, may also be displaying images that they have not personally taken (seems to be a growing trend for "photographers" using iStock and others stock library mages that they havent shot themselves) ?

While I dont want to take this subject off topic re responding to the AIPP point of which you asked two questions Jan. Hopefully I've offered a reasonable answer.


Thank you Andrew for being curious. And thanks for pointing this out to AIPP

But the topic is really about people passing themselves off as something that they're not. Fair Trading should be able to do something about this person. I hope and trust that AIPP will legally pursue the offender for gross misrepresentation.

[kiwi]

bundle into the misleading practice of some the use of istock images in their oen galleries too

[Art Vandelay]

bundle into the misleading practice of some the use of istock images in their oen galleries too

That's just seriously weird. :eek:

[colinbm]

Even Doctors do it............um...........sham doctors that is :eek:
Col

[ricstew]

.....the trouble being the average punter doesn't do their homework :( Thats how these people get away with it. Be they photographers, plumbers or Dr's. I always wonder how people get scammed by Nigerians......surely they are not that dumb......but yes they are.
I doubt I have ever asked the plumber what associations he belongs to......and even if he had some sort of card would I know if it was legit or not? I wouldn't be interested in following it up I just want the plumbing fixed..........but I am also not dumb enough to employ a plumber I knew nothing about.......personal recommendations would work far better for me then an association card :)
What the photographer did is more than likely illegal and FT should follow it up. Just as well Andrew is not your average punter!

[Bear Dale]

The AIPP need to be on top of this and should be actively snooping to make sure that this type of fraud doesn't happen.

[colinbm]

The AIPP need to be on top of this and should be actively snooping to make sure that this type of fraud doesn't happen.

Yeah......... how long did it take to find that man with the whiskers & rag wrapped around his head, hiding out, outside the Pakistan military academy :confused013
Col

[ricktas]

The irony in this is that the photographer has removed the logo from the site (as he had to), but has now posted a big whinging blog about the AIPP and how they are not good for anything. Some people just do not get it!

[Kym]

The irony in this is that the photographer has removed the logo from the site (as he had to), but has now posted a big whinging blog about the AIPP and how they are not good for anything. Some people just do not get it!

So he illegally promotes himself as being an AIPP member, then when caught out bitches about the organisation that he tried to associate with?
He is a complete idiot - no parts missing :lol:

[Longshots]

So he illegally promotes himself as being an AIPP member, then when caught out bitches about the organisation that he tried to associate with?
He is a complete idiot - no parts missing :lol:



Perhaps more idiotic than I would have thought possible. Let me elaborate.

If you're a sole trader/individual you cannot (as I understand it) share an ABN.

And if you have your ABN on your website, its very easy to do a search for it via

www.abr.business.gov.au

Now while you might have a cosy relationship with your partner, girlfriend, wife, you cannot (as I understand this) use the same ABN number for an entirely different business name.

Which is exactly what the search produced.

It would also be worth noting that the same site can state if that sole trader/individual ( both terms suggesting fairly clearly that its for one person) is registered for GST.

Unfortunately I can no longer check the person in questions website to see if they were also adding GST to their pricing, as all links to this person seem to be now coming up with a 403 Forbidden message (out of curiosity I'm wondering if anyone else is getting that same message - Kym ? )

Foolish indeed.

[ricktas]

Perhaps more idiotic than I would have thought possible. Let me elaborate.

If you're a sole trader/individual you cannot (as I understand it) share an ABN.

And if you have your ABN on your website, its very easy to do a search for it via

www.abr.business.gov.au

Now while you might have a cosy relationship with your partner, girlfriend, wife, you cannot (as I understand this) use the same ABN number for an entirely different business name.

Which is exactly what the search produced.

It would also be worth noting that the same site can state if that sole trader/individual ( both terms suggesting fairly clearly that its for one person) is registered for GST.

Unfortunately I can no longer check the person in questions website to see if they were also adding GST to their pricing, as all links to this person seem to be now coming up with a 403 Forbidden message (out of curiosity I'm wondering if anyone else is getting that same message - Kym ? )

Foolish indeed.

I think he is blocking our IP addresses William. I got a cousin to check the site (different ISP etc) and they can see it, when I cannot. My guess is he is aggressively targeting IP addresses that check his site(s) out.

[I @ M]

Just opened all 3 sites here. :confused013

[ricktas]

I get :


Forbidden

You don't have permission to access / on this server.

incidentally I can access the site from my iPad, but only via telstra 3G network, as soon as I try via my wifi network it doesnt work, so he is definitely blocking IP addresses.

[Art Vandelay]

I must be blind, where's the link to the site in discussion ?

[Longshots]

I thought that might be the case. Thanks for letting me know. And yep I get Forbidden

[ricktas]

I must be blind, where's the link to the site in discussion ?

We have not posted it, for the very reason we did not want to start a huge personal thing against this particular 'professional photographer' :rolleyes:

[HappySnap]

I'm glad someone is on to him. He's been a knob for ages amongst the forums professing to be a "professional" and bagging people in his posts.

It's people like this that bring the business of being a good professional down!

Its a shame that this sort of blatant fraudulent representation occurs but it just reinforces that people need to do their homework and not be so trusting in today's world!

RenJ


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ricktas]

Interesting : The ABN he is using on all his sites, is not registered to him.

Whilst this thread may appear a bit disjointed to those who do not know who we are talking about, It is a good lesson on running a business. Do not lie about your qualifications etc, cause you will be caught out, and the implications could be disastrous for not only your business, but you as a person as well, especially if the tax office start investigating you.

[Kym]

Another forum was discussing this issue and turns out it is his girlfriends ABN, I wonder if the ATO know? Be worth dropping an email on that.

Given it is illegal to associate an ABN with a business other than the one registered. BTW It's called fraud when you do that.

Shonky people like this need to be put out of business.
It does no one any good at all when they purport to be members of a professional organisation, put up an illegal ABN etc.
This sort of activity does all good photographers damage.

BTW: The ABN is about identification. http://www.abr.business.gov.au/main.aspx

[Art Vandelay]

arrh , OK. It's starting to read like a post in a critique forum where not everyone has the user rights to see the photo being discussed. :lol:

[ricktas]

arrh , OK. It's starting to read like a post in a critique forum where not everyone has the user rights to see the photo being discussed. :lol:

We cannot name the person or websites/businesses involved as we are then liable to a take down notice, or legal action. At present whilst we are discussing this, but not naming those involved on a public forum, there is nothing they can do. It is the same as an injunction, the case can be discussed, but those involved cannot be named. If members of AP (and other forums..hehe) are discussing this privately, then that is their choice. I am aware the person involved is reading this thread (Hi, and thanks for the email).

[Longshots]

Cant understand why you wouldnt get your own ABN - unless of course the sole trader is employing that person - but then you'd think that the business or business's names would be registered ?

Anyway, another point to remember that if the said person is going to list that they have a "Diploma, Photography", that they would check to see if the stated University of Sunshine Coast actually offers that course - which they do NOT.

[kiwi]

lol, geez, what a tangled web of crap they have spun

[Ms Monny]

This is utterly amazing! Did he actually think that he would get away with it, in this technical webloving day and age??? What a drip!! :lol:

But, yes, a very timely reminder for your other thread about starting your own business and wanting to become a professional......there is only ONE way of doing it....the right way!!!

[ricktas]

But, yes, a very timely reminder for your other thread about starting your own business and wanting to become a professional......there is only ONE way of doing it....the right way!!!

And with Honesty and Integrity!

[Kym]

This thread....


Basil: Listen, don't mention the war! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right.
[returns to the Germans] So! It's all forgotten now, and let's hear no more about it. So, that's two egg mayonnaise, a prawn Goebbels, a Hermann Goering, and four Colditz salads.

And given we were emailed to dump this thread... (even though no one is named)


Basil: Is there something wrong?
Elder Herr: Will you stop talking about the war?
Basil: Me! You started it!
Elder Herr: We did not start it!
Basil: Yes you did — you invaded Poland.

:lol:

[Xenedis]

My guess is he is aggressively targeting IP addresses that check his site(s) out.

Okay, so, the logic goes like this:


establish a Web site to promote one's 'professional photography' business;
stamp the AIPP logo on it, in an unauthorised and deceitful manner;
complain about the institution of which one claims to be a member when one is not, after being caught out with that claim;
use an ABN which is registered to someone else; and
block the IP addresses used by people who try to access one's site.

Yes, that makes sense.


We cannot name the person or websites/businesses involved as we are then liable to a take down notice, or legal action.

It's a truly sad situation when someone can go about engaging in clearly fraudulent activity, but cannot be named and shamed in case that person takes legal action against those who expose his fraudulent behaviour.

For what it's worth, I hope you've reported him to every authority which would take an interest in his behaviour.

The sooner he is put out of everyone's misery, the better.

[Bear Dale]

That cracked me up Kym :)

[colinbm]

Is this site now APP
Australian Photography Police :confused013

[kiwi]

Hmm, more neighbourhood watch, or dads army even :-)

[Kym]

Is this site now APP
Australian Photography Police :confused013

NO! BUT ... a discussion about professional ethics is in order. And referencing someone's behaviour as an example is valid.

What has clouded the discussion is that the AIPP who were infringed are also active on the specific case.

Further the ABN fraud is worthy of discussion as it is a trap from beginners - i.e. ONLY use an ABN for the business its registered with.
If you don't like that then fight it out with the ATO

[I @ M]

Colin, with all due respect, this thread is in "the business of photography" forum and it highlights something that has been done by someone in the "business" and if you look and think back to some of the threads / posts on here about how shock jock so called journalistic programs have gone after photographers who have allegedly given customers a raw deal over weddings etc it may serve to remind some people to be honest in their dealings when in business.

Or should we only ever start "nice" threads that make everybody feel good?

[farmer_rob]

Disclaimer - the following is NOT legal advice.

I am not sure about the ABN issue. Without seeing the site in question, I am not willing to posit an opinion as to its use of an ABN - but there are circumstances where it might be OK - if you have a registered business name robertsphotos and a company flibble p/l, I believe you can be "flibble p/l trading as robertsphotos", using flibble's ABN and robertsphotos name. (Most Mcdonalds and Harvey Normans trade this way.)

[colinbm]

Rick, Kym & Andrew & forum members
Reporting all is OK
But at the end of the day does it really matter what is done or not done. Surely it is the business of the person concerned, they are capable of painting themselves into a corner, one day. The relevant authorities will find their victim.
Lynch law & vigil antes are not needed here, it is not affecting you or I & perhaps no-one here. Yes there are gullible people everywhere, but it is buyer beware in the big world & if it goes belly-up there are laws protecting these people in Aust. Consumer Affairs & Fair Trading are capable of dealing with this & know a rat or dead fish when they find one & can take it further. These 'shock jock so called journalistic TV & newspaper articles' are just sensationalists with nothing better to do, except to get ratings or sell newspapers (read - rocking horse sawdust).
Yes report on some dill looking for more dills to fleece. But Piranha feeding frenzies get out of control & can make mistakes too :eek:
I am sure the crooks & fraudsters are capable of hanging themselves. After all this guy is probably not a major criminal & he hasn't been proven guilty of any crime here.
The people at AIPP will do there job, Trade Practices will do their work in time, & all the other Gov Depts in their due course too.
Col
APP moderate :o

[ricktas]

Colin, nothing posted in this thread breaches site rules or laws of Australia, therefore it is allowed on this site. Just cause you don't like it doesn't mean everyone else has to agree with your opinion. The site is here for all members and I will allow any discussion as long as it doesn't breach the AP rules or the Law.

We have not named this person, nor have they been identified in any way by any of the posts here. Those who know who they are, are members of this site and another photography site where he has been confronted about this issue directly.

The people at AIPP, Trade Practices and other Government departments can only do their job once they are made aware of the issues involved. This thread is a good business discussion about how NOT to run a business and serves as a great reminder of that. If it means just one person reads this thread and changes their mind about 'borrowing" the AIPP logo stating they are a member, then it has served a worthwhile purpose.

[Kym]

Disclaimer - the following is NOT legal advice.

I am not sure about the ABN issue. Without seeing the site in question, I am not willing to posit an opinion as to its use of an ABN - but there are circumstances where it might be OK - if you have a registered business name robertsphotos and a company flibble p/l, I believe you can be "flibble p/l trading as robertsphotos", using flibble's ABN and robertsphotos name. (Most Mcdonalds and Harvey Normans trade this way.)

Basically correct as far as I understand it.
I think that also needs to be registered (it does here in SA with the OCBA (http://www.ocba.sa.gov.au/)).
But using someone else's ABN is never valid, even if it is the GF.

[colinbm]

Colin, nothing posted in this thread breaches site rules or laws of Australia, therefore it is allowed on this site. I never said I had any problem with this being here.
Just cause you don't like it doesn't mean everyone else has to agree with your opinion. I never said I had any problem with this being here.
The site is here for all members and I will allow any discussion as long as it doesn't breach the AP rules or the Law. I never said I had any problem with this being here.
We have not named this person, nor have they been identified in any way by any of the posts here. That's fine.
Those who know who they are, are members of this site and another photography site where he has been confronted about this issue directly. Yes & that's their business.
The people at AIPP, Trade Practices and other Government departments can only do their job once they are made aware of the issues involved. Yes & that's their business. I am sure once they receive complaints from irate customers, the balls will roll.
This thread is a good business discussion about how NOT to run a business and serves as a great reminder of that. If it means just one person reads this thread and changes their mind about 'borrowing" the AIPP logo stating they are a member, then it has served a worthwhile purpose.I can't imagine there are too many dills or fraudsters here stupid enough to try, but really what is it to anyone (except to victims) if they do
These are only my thoughts. No one here is a victim of this guy, I hope. So why carve him up into little pieces, before he has been found guilty of harming anyone, except himself. Yes, report for reports sake, only.
Col

[ricktas]

These are only my thoughts. No one here is a victim of this guy, I hope. So why carve him up into little pieces, before he has been found guilty of harming anyone, except himself. Yes, report for reports sake, only.
Col

So do we need your approval for any posts/threads on this site that you disagree with?

[Bear Dale]

These are only my thoughts. No one here is a victim of this guy, I hope. So why carve him up into little pieces, before he has been found guilty of harming anyone, except himself. Yes, report for reports sake, only.
Col

This is exactly the correct place to talk about a photographer doing something so underhanded and who has been caught out.

[colinbm]

So do we need your approval for any posts/threads on this site that you disagree with?

You may need to tie up that anvil a bit more securely & install a missile switch cover over its hair-trigger & a good pad-lock & bury the key in a dark place :rolleyes:

I never said I didn't like the thread, & I have no say in what is placed here. I have only commented on just the lack of democracy & the lack of justice (innocent before proven guilty) that is being metered out to this person, by people that haven't been harmed by that person, here.
I keep saying, yes report, but why pre-judge the person ? Do you all want to be the police, judge, jury & jailer too.
Are you going to beat & stone this person before they go before a judge. Are you all that righteous, I don't think so :confused013

[colinbm]

To whom it may Concern.

http://www.aipp.com.au/imis15/AIPP/About_AIPP/Code_Of_Ethics/AIPP/About_AIPP/Code_of_ethics.aspx
Code of Ethics
AUSTRALIAN INSTITUTE OF PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHY LTD A.C.N. 050 167 498 A.B.N. 77 050 167 498
AIPP NATIONAL OFFICE: PO BOX 372, NORTH MELBOURNE, VICTORIA 3051 TEL: 1800 686 696 FAX: (03) 9329 9933
General Matters
14. I will not commit any acts that will discredit the profession and I will refrain from degrading competitors.
21. I will not divulge any confidential information acquired by me during the course of my professional duties to any party.
22. I understand that if I wilfully or knowingly condone, or am party to any act perpetrated by others, which contravenes this code, then I shall be as equally responsible as if I had committed such a breach on my own account.

[ricktas]

But Ausphotography is not a member of the AIPP, and therefore not bound by its Code of Ethics.

[colinbm]

But Ausphotography is not a member of the AIPP, and therefore not bound by its Code of Ethics.

"To whom it may Concern".
So it is of no cocern to AustPhotography, then.
Col

[ricktas]

I am really unsure what you are trying to argue here Colin. The thread brought forward the issue of purporting to be something you are not, as a business practice, along with raising issues related to ABN usage and more. It raised the issue of honestly and integrity in business, which is something every photographer in business or considering going into business should appreciate.

I don't understand where your argument is heading, and therefore will bow out of discussing it with you any further. You have made your point clear that you do not think this site should allow this sort of discussion. Others (including myself) disagree with you, as we are entitled to. I have better things to do than get into a tit-for-tat with you on this.

[colinbm]

Thank you, BUT, I never said or implied this -
"".......... you do not think this site should allow this sort of discussion.""
Col

[Wayne]

Too much walking on eggshells here. There are ways this person or person's business can be named without and repercussion legally to AP or anyone associated with it.

I ask those who feel that not to be the case to point to the relevant legislation that would be infringed??

[Longshots]

I'm quite amazed that anyone can argue to protect someone misrepresenting themselves in any manner. But as this is a discussion forum, I'm happy to read all points of view.

Irony indeed to see a very partial and highly selective/edited quote of the AIPP code of ethics. Ironic as the discussions relating to one example of the original topic title "All it not what is seems", is all about seeing the big picture and the true and honest picture.

So, hoping that Rick will allow me to quote this in full, but I think its important to demonstrate that if an individual wants to join AIPP, they have to agree to the Entire AIPP code of ethics. Please note a couple of things, that a) if you're not a member you're not agreeing to this code, and b) its not up to some individual, member or non member, to determine if a member has contravened the code, but up to a formal process which is fair and confidential within the AIPP management structure.

And before I quote the entire thing in, misrepresentation, false claims, clearly stating trade practices that contravene areas that would appeal to the interests of Fair Trading, the ATO, and many others, rely on reports from the public - which is you, me, and the rest of Australian people. If you're not doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to be concerned about. And if you do think that something appears incorrect, wrong, etc, then make a report/complaint etc, as it will be investigated, and if there is nothing wrong, then no action is taken. I dont see share the concern that AP should do anything other than what its doing, which is discussing the original topic title. And I congratulate those who disagree with the far too common practice of misrepresentation and downright deceit in the photographic market. Sure its nothing new, people have been doing similar things for decades, but this is a discussion forum. And while it complies with its own set of guidelines and legal requirements, which include avoiding defamation or slander claims, then I heartily support open discussion about topics that interest me; of which this is one,

Anyway for those interested, here are the entire AIPP Code of Ethics, which as I've said apply to members, and its worth pointing out again that they should be read and understood as an entirety and not quoted out of context to suit any particular debate :



AIPP Code of Ethics
The AIPP Code of Ethics is one of the key differentiators between members of the institute and non members.
All membership categories of the AIPP are bound by the code of ethics.
General Matters

1. I agree to be bound by the Memorandum and Articles of Association of the Australian Institute of Professional Photography (AIPP) and abide by the regulations and guidelines of the AIPP as set down from time to time.

2. I will abide by this Code of Ethics of the AIPP and recognise the authority of the AIPP Compliance Committee in all matters relating to the interpretation and enforcement of this code.

3. I shall at all times present myself; my photography and photographic services, in such manner as will uphold and dignify my professional status and the reputation of the Institute.

4. I will deal with all users of photography and the public with honesty and integrity. I shall exercise reasonable skill, care and diligence in the discharge of my duties, giving full consideration to the requirements of the client.

5. I will not use any marketing or competitive practice, which violates any Federal or State statute or any decision of a Federal or State court.

6. I shall ensure that advertisements and other public announcements with which my name is associated are not such as would, in the opinion of the Board, bring the Institute into disrepute. I shall ensure that all advertisements or public announcements mentioned comply with the guidelines issued from time to time by the Board.

7. I shall ensure that in conjunction with my name only such designatory letters or other descriptions to which I am entitled are used. (Only businesses in which all employees are members of the AIPP may use “Members of the AIPP” after the business name.

Market Related Matters

8. I shall, if engaged in the fields of wedding and/or portrait photography, allow the client three working days, after the placement of an order or the signing of a contract, during which time the client may change without penalty the extent of such order or contract.

9. I will not utilise any form of "high pressure‟ selling tactics to book clients or influence clients to place orders.

10. I will reveal all material facts; avoid concealment of information and refrain from the use of innuendoes in advertising and selling that might cause consumers to be misled, so that the truth about services of products may be fully understood. I will provide a complete and comprehensive written price list outlining my services and products prior to undertaking any photographic assignment.

11. I will fulfil all contractual obligations, offer reasonable warranty of products and services, and perform on such warranty without hesitation, where claims are justified. I will ensure that all wedding photography transactions, including the production of albums, does not take more than three months from the date of order, or a firm delivery date be agreed in writing at the contract stage.

12. I will advertise and sell the merits of my services and products honestly and undertake only assignments that my firm or I can reasonably expect to complete with professional competence.

13. I will refer the client to another suitably qualified and ethical photographer who can best fulfil the client’s needs if my organisation or I cannot undertake the work.

14. I will not commit any acts that will discredit the profession and I will refrain from degrading competitors.

15. I will not concurrently engage in any business or occupation, which impairs my rendering of professional image making services.

16. I shall not offer or accept a photograph for reproduction or accept a reproduction fee in respect of any photograph for which I do not own the copyright, without the express permission of the owner of the copyright.

17. I will refund all monies in cases of genuine client hardship and within the period of six months before the date of a booking. A small fee may be retained to cover administrative expenses.

18. I will ensure that any matter referring to copyright is underlined on contracts (or printed in bold type in any new contracts), and that reasonable usage rights for the studio be contractually established at the time of the original contract, and that these rights extend to an agreed level of promotion for the studio, including entry into professional competitions and exhibitions.

19. I acknowledge that every client entering into a contract with an AIPP member is entitled to receive a copy of the Code of Ethics.

Member Related Matters

20. In whatever capacity I am engaged I shall act in a just and faithful manner towards clients, employers, and employees; towards others with which my work is connected, and towards other members of the AIPP.

21. I will not divulge any confidential information acquired by me during the course of my professional duties to any party.

22. I understand that if I wilfully or knowingly condone, or am party to any act perpetrated by others, which contravenes this code, then I shall be as equally responsible as if I had committed such a breach on my own account.

23. I will be responsible for the conduct and performance of any person employed or sub-contracted by me.

Educational Matters

24. I will actively support and where possible assist in the education of all interested persons and the general public in the art and science of professional photography.

25. I will strive at all times to upgrade and improve my knowledge and skills in the profession of photography and related areas.


And finally here's the link:
http://www.aipp.com.au/imis15/AIPP/About_AIPP/Code_Of_Ethics/AIPP/About_AIPP/Code_of_ethics.aspx?hkey=3f38ce4e-c4b3-4173-865b-b537092e9b2a

[Bear Dale]

I'm quite amazed that anyone can argue to protect someone misrepresenting themselves in any manner.

I agree, it is utterly amazing.

[ricktas]

This person was not a member of the AIPP, and as William's post with the code of ethics shows, even though they had an image (AIPP Logo with wording that implied they were a member) on their site, by this very action alone, they were breaching the code of ethics that they were purporting to be agreeable to IF they had been a member.

This means they could pretend to clients that they had some sort of affiliation/membership with the AIPP, and would abide by the AIPP code of ethics, when in reality they had zero obligation to do so. This could easily be argued as deceptive trade practice.

[Kym]

Too much walking on eggshells here. There are ways this person or person's business can be named without and repercussion legally to AP or anyone associated with it.

I ask those who feel that not to be the case to point to the relevant legislation that would be infringed??

Except that the point of the thread is business ethics, not this specific case.
The case was used as an example, but is not the main point of the discussion.

The person concerned has already threatened legal action, which is easy to avoid by not naming (who wants to waste the time/cost to prove your are right?).

[johndom]

For my 2 cents, I think this conversation is both perfectly reasonable and being handled in a proffessional manner.

[ving]

considering that anyone can join the AAIP i dont really know if I'd automatically consider a member to be professional or er... good.
the average punter (being a person looking for a pro tog) wouldnt know the difference between member and affiliate anyhow.

as for this dweeb using thier logo, well i hope they coped an earful! :th3:


... but the question that begs to be asked and therefore answered is just what is a professional tog?

[Wayne]

Except that the point of the thread is business ethics, not this specific case.
The case was used as an example, but is not the main point of the discussion.

The person concerned has already threatened legal action, which is easy to avoid by not naming (who wants to waste the time/cost to prove your are right?).


One could be forgiven for thinking otherwise, when having a read of the thread, it is evident that the case is so frequently referenced by many.

[kiwi]

what's a professional tog ?

what's a professional artist ?

what's professional ?

what's a photographer ?

The answer my friend is blowing in the wind...

[ving]

always so helpful darren :p

[Chris Michel]

At te end of the day - this guy did the wrong thing and tried to deceive prospective clients - end of story - that simple !!

[Kym]

At te end of the day - this guy did the wrong thing and tried to deceive prospective clients - end of story - that simple !!

And still has an ABN that is not him on his website as of an hour or so ago.

[Longshots]

Come on lets keep to the original topic - if some want to start on their tired soap box that anyone can join the AIPP stance, then start another topic. Clearly the person referred to cannot because they are currently and previously have misrepresented themselves. But they're not alone - AIPP membership is by application, and you do have to follow and application process, and if you can pass that, and there is no issues of ethics against you, and you pass all of the other requirements yes you can join. If you fail that process, which involves an improved application system, then you cant. I believe thats off topic, so feel free to start your own topic.


FYI clearly the point of this is that "All is not what it seems" And someone purporting to be a member - a full accredited member by the way, (not one seeking a student membership (!)), by using an AIPP membership logo - falls into the "all is not what it seems" is in my understanding, misrepresentation (and just like copyright infringements just because you remove it/stop using something, doesnt mean that it never happened), and your local state Fair Trading office will I'm sure explain that to those who think thats all fair game !

To continue to do the wrong thing, even after you've been informed of what is right, is both foolish and ill informed, and while there are some here who havent been able to do their own research, I can assure you that when most people are given some clear advice as to what is right and what is wrong - ie unacceptable business practice, then they normally make amends and move on.

Not in this case. In this case myself and others ISP's have been targeted by an individual. And while they do that, they publicly attack the association they wanted to pretend to be a member of - also not allowing a public right of public reply to the incorrect accusations. They continue to pretend that they have their own ABN, and yet use three or four different websites all with different business names - none of which are registered. They also claim a Diploma of Photography, and that University categorically state that they do not offer such a course. And he does all of this pretending to be in business. And the actualities is that he is still a student - "still at Uni".

And for this individuals (and others), information: how does on check if someone is an accredited member of AIPP ? This in my view is fairly normal and I'm surprised if they think this is some sort of conspiracy. Well if someone comes to my website and sees the AIPP logo on my website, they can easily check to see if I am a member of that association by checking the AIPP database in the find a photographer section, or more easily, a phone call to the national office to check - its that simple.

While I understand that it takes all sorts to make up out community; I can completely understand why some people are those who "dont cross the street to help" when they see a problem ("the authorities can handle that eh ? nothing to do with me"); and then there are others who want to change things/improve things, and "we'll cross the street to help". Well I'm a "cross the street type of guy" and if I see someone in need, I'll be in there, and if I see something wrong, Ill be in there again, and if I see something that should be changed, I'm in there again. Thats why I do what I do. And in some cases all thats required is making sure that the relevant authorities who are charged with applying a set of standards to all are notified, then I have no problem with that. I dont expect everyone to agree with me and I dont expect everyone to share the same energy I have for this type of thing. I wouldnt have been lobbying governments, organisations, and companies for beneficial changes involving those in the photographic industry for the past couple of decades if I thought any differently. But as a gentle note, please dont tell me that I shouldnt speak out when I see something that is "not what it seems", because I'll continue speaking out and I'll continue taking action.

This topic is all about - "All is not what it seems". Not just one individual, but a plethora of those who promote, accept and support a lowering of standards where misrepresentation, and lying is all considered to be fair game.

[kiwi]

Said individual must also be a very thrifty person living of less than $75000 gross income so as to avoid charging GST also. :)

[Longshots]

And thanks for the threatening phone call from said individual

Which by the way, if you are going to threaten to "fix me" and use abusive language, you would be wise to take some action to protect me from seeing your phone number.

And FWIW, actually no I didnt raise the issue with AIPP initially.

[ricktas]

notice: I will be closing this thread shortly. Due to the extensive nature of an abusive phone call to one of the posters in this thread.

Whilst it has been a very good discussion on how not to run a business, it is not worth members being verbally threatened with their life for their input on ausphotography.