Stay at home mums (and others) and photography as a profession

[ricktas]

Owning a forum, I get to see some repeating patterns in the way people post. One that always intrigues me is the stay at home mum’s who join up and announce they are planning on becoming a professional photographer.

I often wonder what makes photography appear as a good profession for them to pursue when they have a young family. Those of us that know what goes into being a professional photographer, are very aware that it is demanding, time consuming, and hard enough when you don’t have children to attend to.

The market is over-saturated with photographers and it can be damn hard work, yet for some reason the ‘public’ perception is far removed from reality.

What makes the stay at home mum (and others) believe that a course and a DSLR will turn them into a professional photographer? We so often see these introduction posts and then within a week or two, they stop posting and we never hear from them again. Is that cause they have succeeded in setting up their business or is it that they have realised that being a professional photographer is not as easy as they thought it would be, and have moved onto another idea?

Is it AP's role to educate people in this regard? Is it a lack of research by the person seeking to take up photography as a career?

I am always happy to see someone succeed with the career choice they have chosen, but I find it concerning that photography obviously appeals as an easy career option, when the reality is far removed from that.

[Kym]

There is a huge gulf between 'nice photos' on Flickr or from relatives and Becoming a Professional Photographer (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?73305-Becoming-a-Professional-Photographer).
(BTW the thread quoted covers some basic but major issues)

And even if you have decent skills and talent there is still the big jump into business.

AP can help educate, but in the end every adult is responsible for their own destiny.

[CherylB]

Without wishing to be disparaging of mothers of young children in general, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact their children are at the "cute" age, and every snapshot a mother takes is drooled over by other family members and friends. Perhaps these mothers get the idea from this that taking photos in general is just an extension of what they are already doing?

Obviously, for those of us "in the know", nothing could be further from the truth! Learning to photograph really well is a skill. Yes, it can be learned, and some people take to it like a duck to water. Others struggle, and many of these people refuse to accept that they just don't have the aptitude for it but will "soldier on" because someone sometime said we had taken a really "fantastic" picture of little Jimmy! Yeah .... guess what? We all get lucky sometimes!

Then there's the business side! Why, oh why, do people think it is "so easy" to go into business? If it was so easy, then why do so many businesses fail in their first year? Answer - because they haven't done their homework!

FWIW - I'm not planning on setting up my own photography business any time soon - and then some! For me, photography is a hobby.

[Jorge Arguello]

That is true, Rick. The Photography as a profession is not recognized for all until we acquire a professional work of one. It is then when we realize that DSLR and it’s use is not enough to call someone (or ourselves) a good Photographer.

I guess you have seen posts of people thinking on getting an expensive DSLR and join AP to ask for advice, then no more posts.

Sometimes it looks that AP is educating not only the people who likes photography (like me) but also those who does not have a clear idea on what a good photography needs behind.

[dbax]

yep, in today's environment with digital cameras everywhere people see images and presume they are all "snaps" making a living from photography is a very different situation indeed.

[kiwi]

I think there's no problem, there are a few mums with cams here (prob a few dads too) who I've seen go from nowhere to starting to earn some pocket money.

I'm more annoyed at first time posters that want a shortcut by asking everything here and giving nothing back in turn

[ricktas]

I think there's no problem, there are a few mums with cams here (prob a few dads too) who I've seen go from nowhere to starting to earn some pocket money.

I'm more annoyed at first time posters that want a shortcut by asking everything here and giving nothing back in turn

I agree, that mums and dads can make great professional photographer, but what I wanted to know is why their is a perception that it is an 'easy' career choice, when reality is so different to that? How has this perception come to be, that its as simple as buying a DSLR and doing a course?

[kiwi]

I think you're confusing a career with two or three portrait sessions a $100 each and a $500 wedding every couple of months. That's hardly a career, it's a hobby, it's akin to selling Tupperware.

To bridge from that to a career is a huge difference

I don't see too many here, or elsewhere, creating a career, but I see plenty making a few thousand a year. Some of them good photographers, some of them not.

[ricktas]

I think you're confusing a career with two or three portrait sessions a $100 each and a $500 wedding every couple of months. That's hardly a career, it's a hobby, it's akin to selling Tupperware.

To bridge from that to a career is a huge difference

I don't see too many here, or elsewhere, creating a career, but I see plenty making a few thousand a year. Some of them good photographers, some of them not.

Again, no. They post saying "Hi, I am a stay at home mum to 3 boys, and I am going to setup and become a professional photographer" It is not what I confuse between hobby and career, I am just reflecting on the incidences of this type of post, and how THEY perceive becoming a professional photographer as being easy. It isn't about what I am confused about, or not. It is about WHY is photography perceived as being an easy career choice.

[MarkChap]

I would come accross this regularly when selling cameras.

I would have people, ok I will say it, predominantly stay at home mums or mums with kids at school, come in and not only want to buy a camera but would also then go on to ask what they should be charging for their work. Yep that's right, never owned more than a cheap arse point and shoot and would be "going into business" as a photographer.

I think this harks back to the many photographers over the years that have placed the "value" or "more expensive" part of photography on the prints rather than putting the value where it belonged, with the photographer to make the images in the first place.
People no longer "value" photography because they don't want to buy all those expensive prints, just take the photos and drop them an a disc, that's cheap isn't it ??

[fess67]

OH MY WORD!!! Finally someone has come out with it (and the owner no less)!!!

I am a wannabeeee....I have been lucky to take a few good images but to be honest it was due to luck over skill. I would love to do 'this' as a profession but I know that I simply cannot produce the goods consistently to make it. I am sick to death of the 'stay at home mums' who think that all it takes to be a successful photographer is to shoot 'Billy" in his favourite sleep suit and bib and that makes it a good photo. To Mum it is a sweet pic and soooo adorable...but you know what, it ain't gonna make you a pro!!!

That said, we see the posts time and again so it is not going to change. The pattern is....get pregnant....have kid...take pics...family member says 'WOW they are so good, you should be a pro".... rest of the world goes 'crap....another idiot into the fray!!'

Sorry for being so blunt but man it does annoy me so.

[kazdez]

Actually I find that just choosing stay at home mothers as the perpetrators of "i am going to start a business" because I have cute kids, and have nothing else to do, quite sexist. There are many males on AP who claim to have a big camera and now they "can be a professional".
I think that each person can have dreams and aspirations and should not be belittled if they don't come up to the standards of others. All professional photographers had to start somewhere, even if it was at home. How many people here have a small studio to play photographer in? I think everyone should go take photos and stop trying to stir the pot.

[mechawombat]

Personally I see it as people have alot of smoke blown (you know where) on their pics by people who have an emotional attachment to sets of images and not had any proper CC

I am a stay at home dad of some sorts (I work nights on the weekends) and have time during the week to spend with my Son. I know I can take a good shot but for every ONE shot there is a trail of 100's that do not even see the light of day to family and friends. now this week we went into the Royal National park to see what bucket loads of water dumped on Sydney looks like and I honestly found it SO HARD to even focus on taking a pic let alone the 100's I need for that ONE image!

I got the photography bug purely from the birth of my son, I wanted to make sure I can document his life because it is a one shot deal, and when number two comes along it will be the same thing (hopefully with an a900... YES PLEASE)
And I think that many people see it as something that is instant and very easy to do because of the nature of DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHY :confused013

ATM I am studying Graphic design and it is alot harder than I imagined but I knew what I was getting myself into as I researched what I need to do and the outcomes. Its just too bad I actually, since joining AP have well and truly wanted to take my photography to the next level. (my studies have faltered a little;))

So in summary I think people get really deflated after realising what is actually involved in becoming a photographer, and that their really great pics are not really that great in comparison to what is being viewed on these forums.
Well thats what I felt cause I am BLOWN AWAY with the quality of the images posted by the AP community :th3:
when I was dumped with the photography job of the MIL wedding (and I admitted that indoor night pics are not my bag) I honestly was really deflated to the point I dont look at the wedding pics forum :o


I don't think that it is AP's fault, as you have the most AWESOME community here :th3: By far the most proactive and fantastic admin and moderation team ( mistakes, I think I made them all:rolleyes:)
but once the sparkle fades and reality sets in "POOF! the dream is gone"

[kiwi]

Look, I get at least an email a week asking for advice on becoming pro, apart from recommending that they go talk to a pro I'm as honest as I can be. In the end the majority never bother to reply

So, I say, good luck to you, wanting to be a pro photographer is like wanting to be an actor. You might ge lucky and land a few bit roles in local theatre but to be a successful actor is damn hard work and a lot of luck.

Dads with cams, mums with cams, it looks easy, but it ain't.

[Xenedis]

In my view, the proliferation of digital photography has put cameras into the hands of many people who would never have bothered to purchase a film camera.

Modern digital cameras produce pretty good results, and it's easy for people to think that all one needs to be a professional photographer is good gear.

Merely owning a great camera doesn't mean one will either take good photos or be a successful business owner, and I'm sure those around here who run photography businesses will be quick to point out that there's more 'business' in a photography business than there is 'photography'.

There's a lot more to photography than owning a DSLR.

Owning a scalpel doesn't make someone a surgeon.

Owning an HSV doesn't make someone a V8 supercar driver.

Owning a DSLR doesn't make someone a professional photographer.

[mechawombat]

In my view, the proliferation of digital photography has put cameras into the hands of many people who would never have bothered to purchase a film camera.

Modern digital cameras produce pretty good results, and it's easy for people to think that all one needs to be a professional photographer is good gear.

Merely owning a great camera doesn't mean one will either take good photos or be a successful business owner, and I'm sure those around here who run photography businesses will be quick to point out that there's more 'business' in a photography business than there is 'photography'.

There's a lot more to photography than owning a DSLR.

Owning a scalpel doesn't make someone a surgeon.

Owning an HSV doesn't make someone a V8 supercar driver.

Owning a DSLR doesn't make someone a professional photographer.

well the HSV owners would disagree HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
Sorry Off topic

But the public perception is "oh you have a DSLR you must be a PRO"

BTW Xenedis its your fault I have hung around I love your work!


Actually I find that just choosing stay at home mothers as the perpetrators of "i am going to start a business" because I have cute kids, and have nothing else to do, quite sexist. There are many males on AP who claim to have a big camera and now they "can be a professional".
I think that each person can have dreams and aspirations and should not be belittled if they don't come up to the standards of others. All professional photographers had to start somewhere, even if it was at home. How many people here have a small studio to play photographer in? I think everyone should go take photos and stop trying to stir the pot.

Maybe those guys are "Compensating"

Sorry I am just a clown who has an itchy trigger finger

[ricktas]

Actually I find that just choosing stay at home mothers as the perpetrators of "i am going to start a business" because I have cute kids, and have nothing else to do, quite sexist.

It isn't sexist, it is an observation of posts that have occurred on the site. The reality is that we see this line time and time again. Now if by raising a comment about the actions of a particular demographic is going to be referred to a sexist, then we are missing the opportunity to discuss a real and valid issue, and I find the sexist defence totally ridiculous. Just cause I raise something about a particular demographic doesn't make it sexist. You want us to stop stirring the pot, yet you try to do so by turning this into a sexist argument? Hmmmm! I am not about to become politically correct, and not raise an issue cause some might find it sexist.

[fess67]

In my view, the proliferation of digital photography has put cameras into the hands of many people who would never have bothered to purchase a film camera.

Modern digital cameras produce pretty good results, and it's easy for people to think that all one needs to be a professional photographer is good gear.

Merely owning a great camera doesn't mean one will either take good photos or be a successful business owner, and I'm sure those around here who run photography businesses will be quick to point out that there's more 'business' in a photography business than there is 'photography'.

There's a lot more to photography than owning a DSLR.

Owning a scalpel doesn't make someone a surgeon.

Owning an HSV doesn't make someone a V8 supercar driver.

Owning a DSLR doesn't make someone a professional photographer.

I play golf. I own the clubs that Tiger Woods uses.......believe me, it does not make me a professional at all.

[colinbm]

I see it as an attraction to a perceived easy income ?
What young family doesn't have a problem with income ?
They think & chat with friends about ways to get a cash flow, between kids sleeps & later with kids at school.
One day at the shopping centre is a photography set-up, Christmas is obvious but other times just kids shoots & some family group shoots, even glam & lingerie for Mums sagging ........ um, ego. The camera goes click, click, Mum or Dad goes click, ah ha, bucks & flexible times, bingo !
Well we can do that too & better. So off they go, camera, computer plenty of time, I got all that, yippee. I can do a course, even a degree & I am off !!!!!!!! SIMPLE :th3:
Col

[WannaBe]

Hmm,

I find this quite interesting that this topic has been started soon after (within 1 hour of my first post) I posted my introductionary post and of course LOOK at my user name!!!

Maybe JUST MAYBE I should remove my posts and leave the forum if that is how you all think.

I have seen PLENTY of SAHM"S become great photographers....

I was hoping that this would be a supportive place for people wanting to do better photography but maybe I was wrong.....

AND you will find that MOST of the SAHM'S/SAHD'S do photos of babies and the likes....

I am not going to be doing pictures like that.....

So you cannot put all of us SAHM'S in the one box....

[mechawombat]

Hmm,
I find this quite interesting that this topic has been started soon after (within 1 hour of my first post) I posted my introductionary post and of course LOOK at my user name!!!
Maybe JUST MAYBE I should remove my posts and leave the forum if that is how you all think.
I have seen PLENTY of SAHM"S become great photographers...

I was hoping that this would be a supportive place for people wanting to do better photography but maybe I was wrong.....

AND you will find that MOST of the SAHM'S/SAHD'S do photos of babies and the likes....

I am not going to be doing pictures like that.....

So you cannot put all of us SAHM'S in the one box....

If you disappear off the forums in two weeks you become one of those statistics :p
TBH this place is SUPER SUPPORTIVE.
I don't think the OP meant all SAHM/D's are like this, I certainly did not take it as that.

Just those who disappear in a couple of weeks :p

[joffa]

I think for most stay at home people it's seen as a business that doesn't need to be a 'proper' business as far as book keeping etc. It's just a way to kill some time, have some fun and meet new people while earning some pocket money. I'd doubt that they would ever expect to earn a full time wage from it.

I myself am one of these people, though I still work full time as a sparky, work for a company and have my own business, plus the occasional photography gig. I doubt photography will ever earn me the kind of money my day job does, it's just a way to get a little bit back from your hobby without having to taking it to the next level...

[ricstew]

My opinion is that being the stay at home person is not very creative...its very mundane.....no where for creative juices to flow........finger paint and play doh dont count.
Along comes baby and a camera.....some nice images are taken and everyone compliments the photographer..:) So SAHP feels good about them selves and looks for a way to continue that feeling......they have access to lots of cute babies and yummy parents.......
So after taking some photos they jump online to check out business ideas and join a forum such as this.........and see the images displayed by " non pro's ".......get totally intimidated and are never seen again! The very few that stick it out will probably do ok........at a part timer /pocket money level.......every now and then one may be good enough to be "real" photographer.....and the lure of creative income is a nice dream..... :)
cheers
Jan

[ricktas]

Hmm,

I find this quite interesting that this topic has been started soon after (within 1 hour of my first post) I posted my introductionary post and of course LOOK at my user name!!!

Maybe JUST MAYBE I should remove my posts and leave the forum if that is how you all think.

I have seen PLENTY of SAHM"S become great photographers....

I was hoping that this would be a supportive place for people wanting to do better photography but maybe I was wrong.....

AND you will find that MOST of the SAHM'S/SAHD'S do photos of babies and the likes....

I am not going to be doing pictures like that.....

So you cannot put all of us SAHM'S in the one box....

It wasn't aimed at you. If I posted it next week, the person who matched the demographic who posted at that time, would be thinking it was aimed at them, or perhaps the one the week after. I was well aware that no matter when I started this discussion it would appear to someone to be directed at them, so there wasn't a perfect time to post it on the site, ever. I certainly did not mean to direct it at any one member, or imply that any one member was the cause of the discussion. Please join in, tell us how you got to this point, what made you think you could be a pro, enlighten us? After all, AP is here to help, discuss, and otherwise disseminate information between members, and who better to debunk or otherwise my discussion than someone who is a stay at home mum. Everyone is entitled to an opinion here, including you, and you will find we welcome diverse conversations.

[OzzieTraveller]

G'day Rick + all

While your OP concentrates upon SAHMs, I unfortunately find people attending one [maybe two] of my training workshops - then emailing me with "I have agreed to go someone's wedding, can you tell me what settings to use......" AAAAaaaaahhhh

Even tho in the first 1/2-hour of every workshop I explain that I am just there to offer training "do help you learn to drive [your camera]" ... I still get 'em

Regards, Phil

[ricktas]

G'day Rick + all

While your OP concentrates upon SAHMs, I unfortunately find people attending one [maybe two] of my training workshops - then emailing me with "I have agreed to go someone's wedding, can you tell me what settings to use......" AAAAaaaaahhhh

Even tho in the first 1/2-hour of every workshop I explain that I am just there to offer training "do help you learn to drive [your camera]" ... I still get 'em

Regards, Phil

yeah, but is there something we can do, as experienced photographers, pro or advanced amateur, that can change this perception? Is it our role to inform these people, or should we just let them try and fail. You and I know there is a lot to learn before becoming a 'pro' (either as a hobby or full-time), but photography itself seems to have this perception that it is easy to just buy a camera and set yourself up to charge people to take their photos, how has that come about?

[WannaBe]

It wasn't aimed at you. If I posted it next week, the person who matched the demographic who posted at that time, would be thinking it was aimed at them, or perhaps the one the week after. I was well aware that no matter when I started this discussion it would appear to someone to be directed at them, so there wasn't a perfect time to post it on the site, ever. I certainly did not mean to direct it at any one member, or imply that any one member was the cause of the discussion. Please join in, tell us how you got to this point, what made you think you could be a pro, enlighten us? After all, AP is here to help, discuss, and otherwise disseminate information between members, and who better to debunk or otherwise my discussion than someone who is a stay at home mum. Everyone is entitled to an opinion here, including you, and you will find we welcome diverse conversations.


OK..... Sorry probably took it the wrong way but yes anyway.

I am not one of these SAHM'S that sit around all day taking photos of my children or my friends children and I doubt it very much I could ever take pics of someone's wedding!! It's just not my scene.
Any photos of children I have taken are my own children but only when we have been out and about.

I prefer to go out and take photos of our beautiful state (Tasmania) and capture different things in different lights.

And when I say "different things", I can mean "different" (photos shared later).

I do intend on taking some kind of course BUT before doing so I have to get myself a new camera.

I also know that I will not be able to make this into a full time job and/or income.

This is just a hobby for me but in saying that I do have a registered business name and it has been registered since late 2008.

I used to have a website but I let that lapse - I became unwell and couldn't get out to do photos .

So now that I am (hopefully) on the path to wellness and all of my children are of full time school age, I am wanting to get back into my hobby.

My 15 year old daughter is also very interested in photography and bought herself a camera a few months back.

I do not intend on becoming one of the statistics on this forum and I aim to be here as often as I can.

I thankyou for this forum.

[kiwi]

where's the harm though ? So what if people buy a camera and turn pro the next day - they are only deluding themselves. Some families get some photos at a value that they probably accept.

They will soon learn that it's not that simple to then turn that into a sustainable business model and only suffer the delusion on a temporary basis.

If anyone asks whether with after 3 months of taking happy snaps of fido in the back yard with their D5000 and 18-55 F/8 that they are now up for a wedding then a) yes we should tell them they are not and b) the silly couples that happily take them on are foolish to do so without asking to see an example of their work etc etc.

[yummymummy]

well... I'm a SAHM, and I agree with Rickstew, my creativity was being squashed by staying home with kids, that's why I got back into photography... I didn't get into it to become pro, just wanted some nice pics to hang on the wall. I have stuck around, and I have made some money since starting here, but believe me, it took a LONG time before I did. I say anyone that wants to become an overnight "success" is dreaming, there is a HELL of a lot more that goes into it than simply pointing and clicking... if that's all these other statistics are doing, then maybe they should go back to using a P&S. *sighs* anyway, like I said.. not all SAHM mum's are like that, I think I've come a long way since joining here, and am only now starting to make money from my camera.. and believe me it's a LOOOOONG way to becoming a full time income!

[William]

Maybe it's because everybody would like to make money out of something they like doing , That would be the ultimate ! There's a heap of Photographers out there , I think the trick is to learn the craft, Learn it well. and be confident, And find that special little Niche that no one else is doing , Well thats my plan , But I think I'm leaving my run a little late :( Interesting read Rick, And I'm glad you started this thread, I also noticed the intros lately ;)

[Duane Pipe]

I fell into that category myself but soon realised that I was dreaming, I have thousands of images taken with a dslr which I have been using for about 5 years now and I think that I could bin the majority of them.
Professional Hmff I am still in the beginner category and have only entered 2 comps on ap only because my images aren't up to scratch:D
Admittedly I don't use the dslr as much as what i could so I feel that I could improve:th3:

[Kafter244]

Surely, Rick, this harks back to good old human perception? I remember at high school people thought art and music were the 'easy' subjects and people chose them to 'dos about'. Then moved onto university where media performance was considered the easy subject. I think this is because people who study anything creative and are good at it appear to have so much fun, it can't possibly be hard work...right? They're beautiful pictures, all you need is a camera, there's no requirement for qualifications, there's no premises to pay rent on, no (or few) staff to pay wages, just you, your camera and some fun.

Obviously this is all wrong, but working in television (I'm an engineer) I see it heaps, and have done in general since I was a kid...the other side of this perception of the arts is that a LOT of people who fall into this trap of seeing them as 'easy' soon realise that it's anything but, and that when musicians, actors or writers say they work hard...they mean it. (although there're always exceptions!) As a result such people who thought it'd be easy dissapear from the scene and leave everyone else behind to keep up an understaffed industry. I say 'understaffed'; most of these industries have heaps of people wanting to be involved, but few have the necessary amount of true professionals willing to put in the time and effort to keep going.

What can be done about it? Probably not a lot to be honest, I reckon trainers, course tutors, forum participants etc can only try and convey the reality to new comers as early as possible and we then become part of their research...they join the forum, ask the questions find it all too hard and then dissapear. In a way I think AP is helping, this forum IS the research and as such will always have such people posting, I'm sure.

(Incidentally, I am purely a hobbyist. Yes it would be nice to make some money in the future, but I don't plan on supporting my family with my income...I just love taking photos and want to keep improving.)

Thanks.

[Jules]

A similar scenario is that of the newly-married woman who decides to launch a wedding planning business. Afterall, they did such a great job planning their own wedding, those skills could be easily used to generate income, right? I know several women just in my own circle of friends who set up businesses after their weddings. Some of them spent quite a bit of money doing it. Not one of them had a single client, and the businesses faded into obscurity.

Like photography, it's the low cost of entry, absence of accreditation requirements and the 'creative outlet' element that attracts people.

[ricktas]

A similar scenario is that of the newly-married woman who decides to launch a wedding planning business. Afterall, they did such a great job planning their own wedding, those skills could be easily used to generate income, right? I know several women just in my own circle of friends who set up businesses after their weddings. Some of them spent quite a bit of money doing it. Not one of them had a single client, and the businesses faded into obscurity.

Like photography, it's the low cost of entry, absence of accreditation requirements and the 'creative outlet' element that attracts people.

Sadly, there is no protection from the paying public from this sort of thing. Maybe we need to be like Germany where you have to do a government accredited course and get a licence before you can start a business up. Apparently it is fairly stringently controlled and many do not pass the course. It also has had the repercussion in Germany of a lesser percentage of new business bankruptcies than most other countries. From memory, during my time in Germany, the course is full time and takes about 6 weeks to complete (it may have changed since then). Doing something like that here would ensure only those who want to put in the effort get to start a business and they complete the course with a good skill set to go forward with. It also weeds out the 'fly by nighters'.

[Kym]

First, there are MANY SAHM 'togs (and enthusiast 'togs in general) who consistently produce stunning images that are capable of winning competitions or (given a business option) will sell their images.

BUT! The transition from talented enthusiast to a successful business is very difficult.

Just wanting to be a pro 'tog is not enough, no matter how motivated people are.
The business issues are 80-90% of it, not photographic talent.

All I think we need to do is educate about the reality of deriving a living from photography,
not that people should not give it a go, but they do it with full awareness and planning.

[kiwi]

I dare say most charging on a part time basis have not setup any business structure at all (ABN, business registration) etc

[virgal_tracy]

You are correct Rick as to the difference between a fly by nighter and a business person.

In other circles I have seen the term SAHM easily interchanged with MWAC (mum with a camera). My personal thoughts on why people think that it is so easy to get into is because they generally don't see it as a business but rather a way to make some extra money.

A lot of these people (and if we generalise about SAHM) are being supported by a spouse, therefore whatever they make is a bonus. What they don't take into account is all of the costs. Initial equipment costs, business costs (insurance etc generally because they don't pay any) and their own costs for doing it. While the spouse continues to support, they can charge a smaller fee to get the work but it is an amount that would not be able to sustain a business.

As to using AP to gain knowledge, I think that it is inevitable that people will join to get out of it what they want and then go on their merry way without thought to giving back. I also think embarrassment might play some part in not wanting to come back if they have failed after publicly declaring what they are going to do.

[triptych]

*sigh* I hear this all to often, and alot of the time its true. Im often shocked at the poor quality professional photographers out there making a full time living out of it, and yes they are SAHM's, and I dont know how they do it? I just think the general public wouldnt know a good quality photo if it hit them in the face.

I am a SAHM, and I know full well how hard it is to get started, I've always been a creative person. I started photography around 12 years ago, but life got in the way and next thing I know Im a mum and have lost my identity as a person. Im under no illusions how hard it is, but if everyone decided not to do something because its too hard where would the world be today?

Im often left feeling bewildered at the fact that less than mediocre fauxtographers can get so much work, yet someone like me who works hard to better myself, and not take the easy way out struggles. And i've come to learn over the past 3 years is that you can be the best photographer in the world (im not saying I am any good btw), but if you have no marketing or business acumen you will get nowhere. So these people must be fantastic marketers.

I dont know, I just see this as another obstacle to get around. As being a SAHM has a stigma, and im so over it!!!!

Im often left wondering, whats the point? It seems everything and everyone is working against you. *sigh* </rant>

[Kym]

@triptych lets drop the SAHM and go with PC TE (Talented Enthusiast) ;)

The issues are the same, and as you point out the business/marketing is where it is all at.

In my profession (IT/Software) there are many creative & talented software developers. But how many are Mark Zuckerberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Zuckerberg)?
Most of us work a 9-5 job are are paid ok.

The difference for the photographic business is the digital revolution has made its much easier to get a good image thus diluting the pro market.
Thankfully for me the pool of software developers is less than the current market needs.

[ktoopi]

:)Hi I am very new to this whole posting environment however, this topic interested me as a stay at home mum with a pretty nice camera. I feel that perhaps many of the mums that are being referred to in this thread see photography as something that they find rewarding (the cuteness of their children factor may have a part to play here) and something that doesn't have the same set hours as other careers and perhaps could be fitted in around family committments more easily that a lot of other career choices. However, having said that, I have several pro photographer friends and am aware first hand how demanding photography can be ie: away on assignment several weeks at a time from your young family! I also have no plans to turn pro anytime soon! I love taking photos as a hobby! :)

[ksolomon]

A very interesting thread with lots of food for thought. I am not a SAHM but find I have similar feelings to Emma (triptych). I always had an interest in photography growing up but within my family dynamic (and thats a thread all in its own) was not given the opportunity growing up to study the art including the how and why (yes I could have done this earlier and on my own without family input but I didn't) then as time went by life goes on and you grow up and end up with a family. Now that my daughter is a teen and I have found and lost myself many times, in the last 2 years I have purchased a DSLR again and undertaken a few courses and to date now have a general hold and understanding of this craft.

I do have the goal to become a Professional but I know that this will take much time and yes I have a business plan, ABN, website, full insurance etc to run this separate to my normal life and income. I also am out with my camera every week at least 3 times a week taking photos, studying, learning and I have a 10 year plan and hope to be able to turn this into something great given time, encouragement and guidance by people within the industry and others alike. I hope that I am setting myself up to succeed but if I don't to me that's ok, I get pleasure out of photographing people, places and things and that has and will never change, but I would like to have the opportunity to get out from an office and behind a chair/computer 5 days a week and earn a great living from what I love!:)

PS Since buying a DSLR 2 years ago I have invested quite a lot of money in gear including a second body

[Bear Dale]

Interesting thread.

I was in Teds in Canberra (basement store) late last year and there was a lady in there with a barrow load of brand new Canon gear on the counter asking questions like"Do you think thats all I need"? "Should it be fairly easy to learn how to use if I read enough books"? and "What would be a good amount to charge"?

[Kym]

... "Do you think thats all I need"? "Should it be fairly easy to learn how to use if I read enough books"? and "What would be a good amount to charge"?

Hmmm! Step 1 - photographic talent! This is mandatory.
It may only be 20% of a successful business, but its not something that comes from reading books. :confused013

I bet if you asked them "Why did you buy lens X?" (where X is say 50mm prime or whatever) they would have no real idea.

The real problem is when in 3 weeks time they advertise as a wedding 'tog :eek:

[Dan Cripps]

Photography is a very easy business to get into but a very hard business to stay in.

[farquar]

So, I was doing some renovations at home over the weekend and thinking about this topic. Whilst looking at my precision built Fat Max Hammer and my new professional grade rotary hammer drill (i had some concrete to break) amongst my other professional quality tools and wondered "hey, I have some pretty pro gear here, maybe I should become a builder" (chuckle to myself) "I wonder why there aren't new professional builders popping up in my newsfeed every week?". So why aren't I a builder??? 1. It took me all weekend to half do a job a builder would've done in a few hours ;) 2. It's very hard PHYSICAL work and 3. and most importantly... Without proper accreditation by a regulatory body, I wouldn't get any work.

Rick was really onto something here, "Germany where you have to do a government accredited course and get a licence before you can start a business up. Apparently it is fairly stringently controlled and many do not pass the course." This would be a good start for sure. I would love to see the term "Professional Photographer" reserved for those who have earned the title,( be it through training/accreditation/apprenticeship etc) not just those who operate a camera and receive a handful of coin for doing so.

I'm sure you've all heard the quote: "Golf is a terrible way to ruin a good walk" well IMO, trying to squeeze an income out of your hobby, might be the fastest way to ruin it.

[I @ M]

I would love to see the term "Professional Photographer" reserved for those who have earned the title,( be it through training/accreditation/apprenticeship etc) not just those who operate a camera and receive a handful of coin for doing so.



That one has been done to death on here before and the one thing that stands out in Australia with "regulated" professions / trades is that if the practitioners of those professions / trades stuff up there may be life threatening results or at the least huge monetary losses incurred.

Photographers are generally nowhere near as likely to endanger others physically or financially.

[kiwi]

Tips for giving away that you shouldnt be considering professional photography:

You have been doing photography for less than 3 years seriously
You have one camera
You dont have a tripod
You dont have at least one flash (and the pop up DOES NOT COUNT)
You have a entry level SLR, 18-55 and 55-200
You have CS5 and entry level SLR, 18-55 and 55-200 (this one always amuses me)
You think JPEG out of camera shots are pure and shouldnt be processed
You wonder what lens you need for doing a wedding
You think colour calibration is only for professionals

The list goes on :p

[James T]

I think this is a bit of a non-issue, I bet there are a lot (more) people out there doing precisely the same thing in other markets / professions, but you don't own a forum which caters to them, so aren't exposed to it.

Regulation for the photography industry is a ridiculous idea to me, and I see no need for it.



Tips for giving away that you shouldnt be considering professional photography:

You have been doing photography for less than 3 years seriously
..

Meh, I took on my first paid job within a year of owning a camera, and started getting regular work well within 3 years.

I know of people with hugely successful photography businesses - multiple studios, etc. with less (time) experience than myself.

[kiwi]

You can average it out if you like James. You were OK after one year, some are still struggle street after 6, I think 3's about "average" if there is such a thing

[ricktas]

This thread is not about those that succeed after spending 12 months (OR 3 - 5 Years) learning their craft.

The thread is supposed to be about WHY photography is seen as an EASY career path, and that some think all they need to do is buy a 'good' camera and they can start a business straight away and make money. What is it about Photography that makes it attractive and seemingly an EASY choice for those with no or little photography experience in the first place. How has this misguided perception been placed in society?

[kiwi]

To answr your specific question - it's simply that if you look like you know a DSLR (still ascarey thing for people with a P&S) you'e automatically a photographer and any photo that is reasonably in focus, has some out of focus, some good colour (which pretty much any DSLR) can render is already miles ahead of the neighbour's iPhone.....so...people get their family and friends (ie NOT peers or other photographers) saying how great your photos are - I bet EVERY ONE OF US got that early on.....so....you then naturally I'd suggest go "wow, I could charge people I'm so good" and hey presto............it's just part of the 5 stages of photography

1/ I am a pro
2/ Maybe I'm not
3/ OMG I am so bad
4/ I need to get better
5/ I am a professional

[exwintech]

Rick - Indeed some very interesting opinions and ideas, here...

Maybe I can veer-off a bit from the "Mums-at-Home" thing - and say it might be close to folk I've known - friends and friends of family friends - younger folk, who have, perhaps this is taught - or hinted - at High Schools these days - a total fixation that "things will be wonderful and I'll be a Professional" - if only they get "a Degree"... Any Degree - just so long as it's a Degree....

Then they'll step right into a $100,000 a year job - pay increasing yearly, of course - and have automatic respect, status, and wealth. In three cases of this since 2000 or so - people thinking this way did get a Degree, and their fantasy didn't happen. One is now unemployed, one works counter in a large retailer, and the third, Degree'd in 2008 - is now back at Uni getting another Degree...

I did a couple of Diplomas, back in the 1970s, while working, never a Degree, heading for a job I really wanted - but, along came the first Bub, proper income was needed, and I literally had to keep-on-truckin'....

But right through life - I did know some very successful "Degreed folk" - and in every case - the Degree didn't "hand them success". At most - it gave them the Abilty to Work VERY Hard - to become successful...

So - might the "Be a Pro Photographer" - just get a nice DSLR then it's easy - respect, admiration, lots of money, so on - thing be somewhat similar?

Because I suspect that any Pro Photog who's now successful - first had some abilities, next had a DSLR - then for a long while Worked VERY Hard - before Success "suddenly arrived"....

There again - perhaps I have an odd way of seeing things...

Regards, Dave.

[stoogest]

How can we help...?

Answer their questions truthfully.
Ask the hard questions that need to be asked.

What more can we do?

At the end of the day we can't be responsible for their life decisions, or for the service they give to their future customers. All we can do is arm them with knowledge, and provide them with a forum for honest, non-judgemental discussion.

Andrew.

[colinbm]

This is nothing new at all.
Every profession, trade, craft, hobby, sport, entertainer, compare ......etc, did I say motivational speakers - yes we can teach you to stand up in a crowded room & take all their money too :o
There are all the trained failures that still get employed & there are plenty of highly trained & accredited professionals that still don't get it right ! The world is full of people :eek: & they all need money :th3:
The world is full of Wannabees, we all want to be the best, biggest, fastest, fattest, skinniest, quickest, slowest, geeeeeeees, look at the book 'Guinness World Records', everyone of us could be in there, we are each unique & could make a record that another could not surpass.
It is just LIFE :th3:
Col

[colinbm]

Benjamin Franklin
"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten"

John Ruskin
"There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey."

John Ruskin
"In order that people may be happy in their work, these three things are needed:
They must be fit for it. They must not do too much of it. And they must have a sense of success in it."

That'll do :rolleyes:
Col

[ricstew]

Another issue that popped into my head..........the SAHP can also be very isolated..........photography can cause them to get out and meet and greet, join forums and generally enjoy themselves. Wether or not they make a zillion $ and become famous to the world.........they may become famous in the own much smaller world...... and thats good for the ego!

[Xenedis]

How can we help...?

Answer their questions truthfully.
Ask the hard questions that need to be asked.

What more can we do?

At the end of the day we can't be responsible for their life decisions, or for the service they give to their future customers.

Absolutely.

I think Rick is more interested in understanding why there's a perception that someone's mere ownership of a DSLR camera, and maybe a few good images (maybe even a few really good images) creates an impression that said DSLR owner should become a professional photographer; why the career of photographer is seen as something that is easily attainable.

I think those who have successfully become professional photographers could indicate that even being an exceptional photographer and owning a truckload of premium gear isn't all it takes.

[stoogest]

It was this question that stood out to me while reading the thread:


"yeah, but is there something we can do, as experienced photographers, pro or advanced amateur, that can change this perception? Is it our role to inform these people, or should we just let them try and fail...

It's great that we are debating the reasons behind the perception, but it got me thinking about what we can actually do to manage those perceptions in a more realistic way, and how much responsibility we (as complete strangers) should take.

[Xenedis]

It's great that we are debating the reasons behind the perception, but it got me thinking about what we can actually do to manage those perceptions in a more realistic way, and how much responsibility we (as complete strangers) should take.

The fact of the matter is that the number of photography forum newcomers (and newcomers to photography) is only likely to increase, and that the question of how one becomes a professional photographer is one that will continue to be asked.

Personally, I think it's best for all concerned that those who are in a position to know, answer the newcomers' questions frankly and honestly, but without shattering people's dreams. Going into business is a risky proposition in the first instance.

It does nobody good to allow people to believe that they can easily turn photography into a career, and achieve success in a relatively short time.

Sugar-coating the reality of the situation is inherently bad.

Like any other facet of photography, dealing with this particular issue is all about educating those who lack the knowledge they need, while not discouraging them if they have the potential and are actually prepared work hard to achieve what they honestly believe is their goal.

[colinbm]

You see a person with stethoscope around there neck & you are having trouble with your heart.
Are you going to question their qualifications or do you just need their opinion if you are going to live :th3:
Col

[jasevk]

Maybe JUST MAYBE I should remove my posts and leave the forum if that is how you all think.

I have seen PLENTY of SAHM"S become great photographers....

I was hoping that this would be a supportive place for people wanting to do better photography but maybe I was wrong.....


This thread was started by Rick, who has probably seen several hundred threads like yours... I wouldn't take offense.

This is a place where you'll get support and good advice, yes you will get crap advice too but you'll soon learn to decipher the good from the bad... But can I suggest you get right to reading the manual of your camera and lenses, and get stuck into some theory on the science of photography... And worry about the business side of things a few years down the track when you'll hopefully know what your doing with your gear. :)

Enjoy the journey

Jase

[ricktas]

You see a person with stethoscope around there neck & you are having trouble with your heart.
Are you going to question their qualifications or do you just need their opinion if you are going to live :th3:
Col

No cause any decent surgeon will introduce themselves with a "Hi I am Mr xxxx, a cardiologist and I am here to check you out, what exactly are your symptoms"

[colinbm]

No cause any decent surgeon will introduce themselves with a "Hi I am Mr xxxx, a cardiologist and I am here to check you out, what exactly are your symptoms"

Doctor XXXXX

No the person is having trouble & sees your stethoscope & wants an opinion, NOW.

You have a DSLR & I want you to take my picture Please ?

See what I mean ?

[WannaBe]

This thread was started by Rick, who has probably seen several hundred threads like yours... I wouldn't take offense.

This is a place where you'll get support and good advice, yes you will get crap advice too but you'll soon learn to decipher the good from the bad... But can I suggest you get right to reading the manual of your camera and lenses, and get stuck into some theory on the science of photography... And worry about the business side of things a few years down the track when you'll hopefully know what your doing with your gear. :)

Enjoy the journey

Jase


Well you see I am doing the research before I buy the new camera... my last one I sold....
I am wanting to learn lots.
I DO NOT want top take photos of babies/kids/brides :rolleyes:

I hope I'll get the support.
I know I'll get good and bad advice.
I don't expect to be photographer of the century in just a few days!!

Yes I know it is hard.... but in all honesty I don't give a rats really as it is for my enjoyment and I will probably share the photos with others. They'll either like them or hate them.

CHEERS

[Kym]

Yes I know it is hard.... but in all honesty I don't give a rats really as it is for my enjoyment and I will probably share the photos with others. They'll either like them or hate them.

That's spot on!! As long as you have fun and enjoy it - all goodness!!

[colinbm]

This baby sounds like one truely binky di tassie devil :th3:
Get ya guns Rickie, cause ya gunna need em :lol:
Col

[Kafter244]

Hey Col, if you haven't already read 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance' by Robert Pirsig...I reckon you might like it ;) lol.

Sorry a little off topic but still, a great book that delves into the meaning of Quality, can it be defined and can it be sought? Important, I think, to pro togs...one needs Quality work, technical work won't get you a career.

Anyway, off topic, sorry Rick. I still think the reason it is perceived as 'easy' is because it is an 'art' most arts subjects are perceived that way, and often because they do not require years of proven academic study (who sees the years of hard work if there's no certificate at the end of it?!) and most pro's people may see rarely have a brow beaten face in the rat race; they're travelers, people who love their work and work with a smile...the rest is overlooked by most.

[Kym]

For clarity... WannaBe said "I want to be a Photographer" never said pro!

So let that one go. Also this thread is about the generic topic.

Please keep on topic and do not get personal!

[jgknight]

When I first left school (in the early 60's) I was hired as a trainee photographer/darkroom assistant. The majority of work was in Black and White and a lot of studio photos were hand coloured. Colour photography (for amateurs) was just in its infancy. I did my training time and moved into stills photography at Channel 10 in Sydney after which I went into Advertising and Fashion Photography. TTL exposure metering was still fairly rare but starting to evolve so exposure meters such as Weston Master 5 or Lunasix were a necessary tools to get a correct exposure. Silver film was never as forgiving as digital is, so absolute accuracy in exposure was mandatory. Black and White portraits had to be retouched on the negatives using a soft, sharp pencil on an oscillating light board. Colour portraits relied on make-up to remove major blemishes. As a freelance photographer, it was a very demanding lifestyle. One month would yield more work than could be handled, next month looking for more. I did it for 12 years before calling it quits.

Things have changed considerably since that time. Digital has made photography so easy in many ways. Auto focus, auto exposure, ISO flexibility just to name a few. After the initial purchase of the camera and lens, there is no film to buy and get developed, and you can go out and take 1000 photos, download them on the computer and view the images for free. It was the processing charges for film and prints that made experimentation very costly.

Digital has made photography accessible to everyone from infants to pensioners. Computer control in cameras can make anyone a photographer. But only someone with a lot of skill and technique can make a successful professional photographer.

I am very proud to say that now I am an amateur photographer. I take photos where I want, what I want, and when I want. There is no pressure to deliver the goods. I can take photos as I see them, not how others expect them and it feels good.
As for being a professional photographer..... expect to put in a lot of time and very, hard work if you want to earn a living out of it.

[colinbm]

WannaBe
Just sit on a big folded up towel when reading my posts :th3:
Col

[dbax]

wo wo wo setttle people, In Ricks post he was talking as a generalisation( my interpretation) WannaBe you seem to have taken this post personally and no I haven't reread every post, but the same day you posted your intro some one else posted an intro and I quote " I have just purchased a Cannon 550D twin lens kit and am very interested in doing a photography course as I would like to one day become a professional photographer" so you might see were some confusion might come in. The responses to this post were to point the person to the NTP learning plan(free) and local, to them( a simple google search by them would have found the same information)photography courses. I presume that this happens many times a day on a site this size . If you looking for guidance , accurate information, honest CC, and honest opinions then AP is the place to be.

[Kym]

I've removed some posts. So we all get back on topic. This thread is about the general topic, not any particular new member (or older one for that matter).

If you feel that you have been personally attacked, DO NOT RESPOND, simply report the post and the mods will work it out.

In the mean time let me try to get the system performance issue fixed !!

[jasevk]

Yes I know it is hard.... but in all honesty I don't give a rats really as it is for my enjoyment and I will probably share the photos with others. They'll either like them or hate them.



OK, I'll try this again...

I noticed in your intro thread that you mentioned you want to be a professional photographer. If this is true, I can offer 2 pieces of valuable advice.

1. As an artist, other people's opinions are irrelevant.
2. As a professional photographer running a business, how you respond to other people's opinions and criticisms are your livelihood.

[dbax]

For clarity... WannaBe said "I want to be a Photographer" never said pro!

So let that one go. Also this thread is about the generic topic.

Please keep on topic and do not get personal!

As Kym say above " WannaBe said "I want to be a Photographer" never said pro!" in the original post only mentioned Pro in the tread after following a link provided !
Id like to be a pro Tog but skill, equipment, time, family and economics don't allow me to persue that dream........................at present;)

[jasevk]

As Kym say above " WannaBe said "I want to be a Photographer" never said pro!" in the original post only mentioned Pro in the tread after following a link provided !
Id like to be a pro Tog but skill, equipment, time, family and economics don't allow me to persue that dream........................at present;)

I'm referring to the post in the same thread where the OP mentioned they would like to be a professional, therefore my comments still stand as valid and very relevant to the topic of SAHM's wanting to become professionals!

[ricstew]

I also 'blame' the camera companies.............Buy this PRO camera! You will take PRO photos! Be a PRO with this camera! yada yada yada.......

[I @ M]

I also 'blame' the camera companies.............Buy this PRO camera! You will take PRO photos! Be a PRO with this camera! yada yada yada.......

Sorry, doesn't wash with me.
Do people suddenly open a catering business because they bought the "pro" whizzing blender thingy after a hard day / night watching demtel advertisements and decided that they had suddenly become a chef.
Do people start a cleaning business because they bought a "pro" steam cleaner after ----
Do people start a fashion label because they bought a sewing machine with 356,000 stitch patterns and a bonus button hole attachment after ----

Oh hang on, maybe they do. :lol:

[Bear Dale]

Maybe a lot of people are maybe missing the point of just how little some people are happy to 'make' from photography. Some people doing it as a hobby/job would be tickled pink to make a $100 a month from it for a couple of tanks of petrol for the family chariot to help out the budget.

Other people running a large studio with massive wage/overhead costs may need to gross $350k to make a profit.

I think there's a lot of snobbery in photography, the 'professional' moniker, much to the chagrin of many, means squat. Anybody can use the prefix before their name, on their business card or on the shingle over their door. And lets face it, using a DSLR isn't the same as building a deep space rocket is it? Social media websites such as facebook and their ilk have changed greatly the need (or want) for framed photos, many people will never see one of their photos printed - ever.

In a nutshell the "profession" is not a closed shop, there's no formal training and no formal recognition thats needed before labelling ones self 'Joe Blow Professional Photographer at large'.

[James T]

[...]
Oh hang on, maybe they do. :lol:

Exactly, as I said in my first post. This isn't unique to photography, I don't think 'The Public' see it as an easy career choice any more than a number of other jobs. It's just that photographers seem to have a lot of time to sit on the net complaining about things. :p

Anyway, even if they did, does it matter? Not to me. :confused013

[Longshots]

I also 'blame' the camera companies.............Buy this PRO camera! You will take PRO photos! Be a PRO with this camera! yada yada yada.......


I have to completely agree with this comment. In fact its been a big complaint of mine for many years. Its only within the last 10-15 years where camera manufacturers have felt the need to do this type of marketing.

I was in Photocontinental just last week buying a Fuji100x, and was amazed as I listened to the customer in front of me demand to buy a "professional" camera, because he was going to be a "professional" Sadly it became very clear that this was the customers first ever camera and clearly deluded. Another victim of that type of marketing.

And as for your examples - maybe they do !

[kiwi]

Here you go, the answer is nigh

http://certifiedphotographer.com/

[davearnold]

A lot of interesting posts here,

Reading the first post, made me immediately think, when I was at a craft market a few weeks ago, and there was a few photographer stalls there, one had her camera there a 600D with 18-55 kits lens, I think in total there were 4 at the market, what interested me was the different way they were promoting there services, and really it comes down to that over image quality ( saying that, all the "displayed" photos were nice) some offered unique frames, others a box set, another just a CD of images.

Having recently tried to do some relative's "children" photos ... getting them to perform or even look in the same direction at the same time, never mind their facial expressions , before then taking into consideration, background, light and lens choice, was an unbelievable challenge..... so good luck to anybody who can achieve this, market it and also make money out of it, without a lot of experience or formal training.

From my experience as a stay at home dad, (was a few years ago now) there would be so many other ways to make extra $$$ .... I did this through a night job, and later ebay (which proved a good , reliable source of extra pocket money).

I think like a lot of industries .... e.g .real estate, car sales, mortgage broking, any party plan ...e.g. .most self motivated selling jobs.... it all goes well in the early days, using friends and families( who usually say positive things no matter what they actually think), but once you have saturated them, and have to find real customers ..... that is where reality BITES !

But as the saying goes "nothing ventured, nothing gained" ... if you have a dream chase it, you might be the one in a hundred (or is that a million) that achieves it!

[Bear Dale]

Here you go, the answer is nigh

http://certifiedphotographer.com/


Very often you'll find 'certifying bodies' that are set up to 'certify unregulated industries' as sometimes just lucrative entrepreneurial ventures.

[kiwi]

Of course, I expect that's exactly the case here

Maybe we could have a "Australian Photography Certified Amateur" based on the competition assessment of "advanced" - all we need is a logo for our websites ;)

[I @ M]

Of course, I expect that's exactly the case here

Maybe we could have a "Australian Photography Certified Amateur" based on the competition assessment of "advanced" - all we need is a logo for our websites ;)

A slight name change maybe but it comes with a handy acronym Certified Recidivist Amateur Photographer. :rolleyes:

[Ms Monny]

Ok, here is my two bobs worth...

I think that most people coming into this field have NO IDEA what it takes to be a pro tog!! I had, in the past, thought that I could easily get into a photographic business, especially after my SIL said my photos were great and I should sell them......and no, they weren't of babes either LOL. My head swelled, with all my friends liking my photos, and I've had comments on my facebook from a friend, who is an artist, saying I should put them up in our town Art Gallery. THEN I CAME ACROSS THIS FORUM and everyone on here put everything into perspective! There is NO WAY I am at any stage to sell my images, let alone put them up in an Art Gallery. This is a good thing, don't get me wrong. The time and effort needed to hone the skills is paramount and I can see from all the posts within the different threads that it takes YEARS to perfect these skills (unless you have the time to go out 24/7 to practice). I am a semi-SAHM and with kids running around, the house to keep, cooking, and general house-wifey stuff, there is not alot of time that I can put into my photography. Another SIL said I should go to Uni and do the Visual Arts degree (she is doing hers with Jewellery) but, oh yeah, what about my family??? Only last night I was running around the back yard taking photos when I knew I should be inside getting dinner prepared - yep, our roast was late on the table!!!

I feel that to be totally serious about doing pro tog then you need as much time and committment put into it as possible, and SAHM/D's, in my honest opinion, just wouldn't have that precious time available to them. Practice now, for sure, but it probably can only come into effect once the kids have flown the coop.

I know I have missed the boat by about 20 or so years. I could have gone and got myself a career in Photography when I was young but I didn't. I now enjoy my photography for myself and anyone who wishes to see it. If I sell an image or two down the track, then fantastic; if I don't, I know why. I know now it doesn't take a DSLR and a couple of lenses to make you a pro tog, and it never will. I have been grounded by this forum and it has helped me realise what stage I am up to in regards to my skills. Good luck to the many who pursue their dream and I hope that they actually do go far and not get burnt in trying.

[Xenedis]

I think the definition of 'professional photographer' is very hazy at best, and undefined at worst.

Unlike traditional professional fields (ie, law, science, medicine, engineering et al.), there is no formal training one must undertake, nor certification one must attain, in order to declare oneself a 'professional' photographer.

Depending on one's viewpoint, a professional photographer could be someone who:


makes a living from photography;
has been paid at least once for a photoshoot;
runs a part-time photography business on the side;
owns a Canon EOS-1D or Nikon D3;
has done some form of photography course at univeristy or a private college; or
has simply declares oneself to be a 'professional'.


In different industries, the term 'professional' can have different meanings.

In photography, there are professional associations and other forms of membership (such as AIPP and CPS) which are mostly conditional upon the member meeting certain eligibility requirements, such as "deriving the majority of one's income from photography".

It's wise to remember that the fact that a person has a photography business, business name, ABN and a title of 'professional', doesn't mean the person acts professionally or produces professional images. Anyone can register a business name, and go about conducting business as a so-called professional photographer.

Unfortunately, many members of the pubic who require the services of a 'professional photographer' and don't understand the real value of actual professional photography, could inadvertently hire one of those budget-priced fly-by-nighters and end up with very mediocre images at best, or a disastrous outcome at the other end of the scale.

Until there is some sort of standard accreditation for people aspiring to work as professional photographers, many real professional photographers out there are going to be working in a market saturated with Johnny-Come-Lately Professional Photography-type businesses charging two thirds of bugger-all for extremely mediocre wedding photos, and being told by potential clients (if not completely overlooked) that their prices are too expensive. The net result is that good photography is devalued, and the perception that any schmuck with a DSLR can produce good images, will prevail.

[Longshots]

Ms Monny

Thats the best response I've read in a long time on a long debated topic.

Sure we all started from scratch. I'm no exception. But the time commitment, the energy to succeed in this game now, has always been intense; and while the business/industry continues to evolve, the amount of commitment and energy is intensifying.

The big issue is that there are plenty of new people entering the industry. Where they are in two or five years time is the real thing to watch.

Anyway, just wanted to say thank you for a thoughtful, and well written, response. :th3:

[colinbm]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here & possibly a clue too.
With all this enthusiasm & training & uni & degrees, nothing has been mentioned about getting employment with a tog & learning hands on.
All this self-taught is fine & you can't knock an education BUT to be taught by practical experience by a master, really can't be beat.
Col
PS No I haven't had any of this experience in photography (yes I am struggling), but I did get it in a number of other trades.
Col

[Bercy]

What great arguments in all directions. Because you get paid does not mean you are good at it. Because you did not charge does not mean you have less competence, training or skill. To be successful you have to know your business and know about business. Throwing a magnetic sticker on your Beetle and buying a camera does not obey the 5 P's of marketing. Most professions are now surrounded by a cloud of "me too" professionals - home designers just as good as architects, tax agents parading as accountants, we are the (enter name here) professionals, doctors who aren't doctors. One of the few jobs where you simply can't purport to be what you are not are airline pilots.

Real professionals have legitimate training, are preferably members of an organisation of peers, and have a body of professional work that sets them above the "me too" brigade.

The shopping mall leeches that suck on the vulnerabilities of passers by with their $250 gifts are professionals of another sort, and really give prostitutes a bad name. I have been photographed by professionals, and the difference is quite apparent. Owning a hammer does not make me a carpenter.

Sadly - it is very much up to the consumer to be able to differentiate the real professionals from those who charge for ineptitude. I have taken photos of youngsters before the school formals on a few occasions. The "professionals" took the photos at the occasion. The parents showed me the watermarked prints. They promptly wanted 16 CD's for the other parents. That doesn't make me a professional but it does mean you don't go for the biggest add in the yellow pages.

I listened to a "professional" talk about photography for half an hour about this and that and blah blah. And I asked a simple question...

"What is light?"

The "Professional" stared blankly and turned and started to talk to someone else.

I'll stay an amateur and try and get better and better. ;)

[opi2kenopi]

So this is my first 'proper' post after my intro post yesterday. I find this topic interesting and very pertinent to my own situation. Yep, I'm a SAHM, and yep, one day, I'd love to get paid for doing the one thing that I love doing the most, taking photographs. I'm currently working very hard on my business plan (my husband is soon to be an accountant and wouldn't let me contemplate this without one), I have done more reading and researching about being a photographer who gets paid (professional photographer is such a controversial term these days, huh) than I care to write down on a timesheet, and in my previous life (before kids) I have worked in various fields that I believe will help me be successful.

I have never considered that this would be an easy way for me to make money. I'm in the extremely fortunate position that my income (or lack thereof) does not have a significant impact on our family's ability to eat every day, and so I am able to do this (almost) risk free. Except for my pride. Except for my desire to achieve 'perfection' (whatever that is to the beholder). I want to succeed and I am doing everything in the preparation stages to get there. I don't plan to launch my business until 2012 at the earliest, and only when I feel I'm ready, both as a business owner and as a photographer.

For the record, I was a 'photographer' LONG before I was a mother. And I really resent the term MWAC (not that it's been used here). I actually now feel somewhat uncomfortable getting out my DSLR at the playground for fear of being labelled as 'one of THOSE mothers'! But, at the moment, it's one of the few places I get to practice (as my husband works quite a few weekends at the moment, spare time is at a premium). How do I explain to people that I've been using a 'fancy DSLR' for quite a long time now and that I didn't just suddenly go and buy one because I had a kid?

Personally, I think my situation is probably kind of a dream situation for many of you. No pressure to make money (as such), and the freedom to pursue my passion/hobby as a career. Although, being an 'Army wife', living away from those I love, having my husband go away for months at a time when I had a little child, having to change jobs/careers every couple of years, uprooting my life every couple of years, possibly I deserve a chance to make a go at something I love??? (Don't cry for me :) , this life has it's perks, I'm just thankful that it's coming to an end soon and that I can finally pursue something for myself).

As for joining this forum, if I even knew how beneficial joining such a community could be all those years ago when I discovered my passion, I would have been here years ago. I really only decided to join because not too long ago I joined a food related forum (my other passions...cooking AND eating) and have found it to be a wonderful, supportive, collaborative environment. I have met up with some of the members and enjoy finding new 'friends' who have the same interests.

I hope (and I gather already) that I may very well find the same environment here.

So, if I don't post again for a while, I'll be buried up to my eyebrows working on setting up my photography business...lol :)

But first, off to find a forum to post a pic taken from my days living in Tassie...where my passion really took hold...how could it not???

[opi2kenopi]

But first, off to find a forum to post a pic taken from my days living in Tassie...where my passion really took hold...how could it not???

Oops, and by 'forum' I meant thread. Sorry, I hope you don't think I was gettin' all huffy and leaving to share my stuff elsewhere!! :D

[jev]

There still is a perception in people's mind that photography is easy. They have a special occasion or otherwise want pictures taken and there he is: The Photographer. (S)he drops by (or one goes over to his/her shop), out comes the camera and after a quick couple of words, snap snap, click klack ready, please pay on your way out the door. It looks as if anyone can do it, prices of "pro" equipment have dropped, once doesn't seem to need much else than a camera to take great pictures but you'll have to pay through the nose for them.

And than, yes, one goes out, buys a "professional camera" (note the quotes!), and snaps some keepers for the family album. See? Photography really ain't that hard!

Next step: shoot a couple of pictures from the next-door neighbor's kids in a cheap "studio" setting. Them pictures, they sure do look fantastic, eh? And people look and nod: "yeah, they are great!" and free, but that's not what "they" are telling you.

Driving a photography business at first sight seems pretty easy too. Keeping books is easy (//me hears "when the money keeps rolling out, one don't need books" from the Evita musical in the background). Bit of an administration, and that's it.

Before you know it, you have business cards and large stickers on the car. You feel like... ehm... a real photographer - now let the games begin!

And than, after just a couple of weeks, it hits you: it's NOT that easy. It takes a whole lot more skill to get that picture right all the time, especially in the blazing sun or in heavy rain - but you have to deliver! It's not as cheap to do when you calculate hours, equipment and include backoffice costs. (Private) customers are NOT as nice when they have to pay you for what you're doing. Where's the fun in shooting family number twenty-something in a row with crying kids that don't want to cooperate, a dog that is throwing up, the large woman wearing a miniskirt you wished you never saw and the guy that wants to be somewhere else entirely.

You know, when the fun stops, photography is just like... ehm... a real job.

And that is where it stops. Hopefully.
Amen.

[Terri]

What an interesting topic!

I guess this goes a little way to explaining why, out of all my favourite (better?) shots on my pbase site, it seems to be the couple of "snapshots" of my nephews that get all the praise from family! :D

Actually, this topic reminds me a little of a conversation I had with a guy who owned a secondhand bookshop. He said that people kept coming in each day and saying "when I retire, I'm going to run a secondhand bookshop"... considering he worked there 7 days a week he found that quite amusing!

[Gypsy]

I'm one of those mum's who picked up a DSLR after having my daughter and now running my own photography business from home.
I also did some photography years before kids, using the good old film SLR's and developing the negatives and prints myself in the 'old fashioned photoshop' ie. a darkroom. (Oh how I miss that!!)

But you know what?? I don't feel I need to explain myself. I see way too many mothers picking up a camera and trying to start up so-and-so photography and unfortunatly those people give the rest of the genuine people who do have a deep passion for the craft a bad label. But I know as long as I am doing this for the right reasons, and that I am generally passionate about what I do, and I put in the love and dedication to producing what I do, then I have just as much right as the next person. My husband and I started photography at the same time but he chose birds and landscapes as his genre while I love portraiture. He wouldn't have a bad word against him. yet I would just because I'm a mother with a DSLR!? LOL

Anyway.... enough about that. Just if you are enjoying it and doing it for the right reasons, then go for it.
Welcome to AP :)

P.S ... just because you mentioned about your food forum having wonderful support.....
My hubby & I started this site back in 2006 because we felt there was a lack of support for those entering the photography world. There were many sites for those at a professional level... but until you reached 'that level' you just didn't get the respect and support. The wonderful talented Mr Rick has taken over the reins a few years ago now, and since then AP has just grown and grown! He along with the fantastic staff who volunteer their time to keep this place running have done an amazing job. The support you receive here is fantastic. There's always someone here that will have the answers you need. There's people who are at all different levels, and people that understand your exact position. So I do hope that you find this site useful and supportive. I wouldn't keep coming back if I didn't :th3:

[jazzyjane1970]

I agree, but as someone new to this forum, I am using it to learn more about photography (through the learning plan). As a stay at home mum, I struggle to fit the time in to read the learning plan and work through that, let alone contribute to the forums also. I've been deactivated twice through inactivity, and try really hard to be active, but sometimes time gets the better of us all.

[jazzyjane1970]

I agree, that mums and dads can make great professional photographer, but what I wanted to know is why their is a perception that it is an 'easy' career choice, when reality is so different to that? How has this perception come to be, that its as simple as buying a DSLR and doing a course?
Rick, I don't see this perception out there. I'm a mum with a DSLR and I didn't buy the camera to be a professional photographer, more to improve the pics we were taking of our kids. I started to look into learning more about photography, granted, as a result of falling in love with photography and being told that my pictures were okay, but I'm not deluded into thinking it would be easy to go into business in this regard. As you have mentioned, there are a huge number of photographers out there. I think anyone who can't see that and still gets into it, is being a little shortsighted, and maybe it is this person who gives it a go and doesn't make it beyond the first year?
Would I love to be a professional photographer? Absolutely. Do I really have the talent? Not nearly so certain about this, despite people telling me that my pictures are good.

[ricktas]

Rick, I don't see this perception out there. I'm a mum with a DSLR and I didn't buy the camera to be a professional photographer, more to improve the pics we were taking of our kids. I started to look into learning more about photography, granted, as a result of falling in love with photography and being told that my pictures were okay, but I'm not deluded into thinking it would be easy to go into business in this regard. As you have mentioned, there are a huge number of photographers out there. I think anyone who can't see that and still gets into it, is being a little shortsighted, and maybe it is this person who gives it a go and doesn't make it beyond the first year?
Would I love to be a professional photographer? Absolutely. Do I really have the talent? Not nearly so certain about this, despite people telling me that my pictures are good.

Hi Jane, thanks for the post. Certainly if you ask me or any other photographers who have been around this forum (and others) for some time, it is a repeated concept. People posting saying they have JUST got a DSLR and are about to set up their photography business. It is this observation that I was referring to when I wanted to know why Photography is seen as an easy career choice. What makes people think buying a DSLR will allow them to start a photography business, with very little experience at taking photos.

My thread/post was not about those that venture into being paid once they have experience, rather it was about those with little or no experience, and they obviously perceive photography as an easy career path, or we wouldn't see these types of posts on this site, and others, so often.

[nicolef]

So??

I would say this is common in most fields. As a musician I always have people telling me they want to be able to play like *** and last a week until they realise it was harder than they thought. At the end of the day, if you persist and become good at it, you succeed.. if you are not prepared to put in the work and have a certain amount of natural talent, you fail. I would welcome as many people as possible to try the art and gain an appreciation of the challenges of the profession.

I also don't think it's a surprise that SAHMs are more regular offenders --> they are at a time in their life when they are taking a lot of photos AND they are at a time in their life when their regular careers are on a pause and there is an opportunity to explore other interests.

PS I've barely posted since joining - it's not that I don't want to, I just feel quite intimidated by threads such as these!! (and I've just been reading one on etiquette - golly gosh!!!) Will be making a bit more of an effort from now on and looking forward to getting to know you all ;)

[ricktas]

PS I've barely posted since joining - it's not that I don't want to, I just feel quite intimidated by threads such as these!! (and I've just been reading one on etiquette - golly gosh!!!) Will be making a bit more of an effort from now on and looking forward to getting to know you all ;)

Do not feel intimated Nicole. Just think of it that if we stopped having these discussions, how much more un-interesting would the site be? I see no need to shy away from a discussion that is relevant to photographers, just cause it may be intimidating, rather we should embrace these discussions and find out what everyone thinks. Broaching aspects of photography that are controversial is one of the things that makes photography an Art in the first place.

[opi2kenopi]

I must say I have felt (still feel) quite intimidated too. However, I have done quite a bit of posting to try and push through it ;) The etiquette post got me today too :eek: I'm sure I've made many mistakes already in the whole 4 days I've been a member.

Anyway, back to this topic. I agree nicolef about the attraction of photography as an option at this stage. I think it would have a lot to do with the flexibility that it offers in comparison to a traditional work for someone else job. Shoot(s) can be done on the weekends (when hubby is home to mind the kids, in a traditional situation) and pp during the week. I don't think it matters if people want to give it a go and then realise it isn't for them when reality hits home, if we didn't try things we would never experience anything worthwhile in life. I would hate to look back on my life in my retirement and wonder what if?

[ricktas]

I must say I have felt (still feel) quite intimidated too. However, I have done quite a bit of posting to try and push through it ;) The etiquette post got me today too :eek: I'm sure I've made many mistakes already in the whole 4 days I've been a member.

Anyway, back to this topic. I agree nicolef about the attraction of photography as an option at this stage. I think it would have a lot to do with the flexibility that it offers in comparison to a traditional work for someone else job. Shoot(s) can be done on the weekends (when hubby is home to mind the kids, in a traditional situation) and pp during the week. I don't think it matters if people want to give it a go and then realise it isn't for them when reality hits home, if we didn't try things we would never experience anything worthwhile in life. I would hate to look back on my life in my retirement and wonder what if?

Everyone makes mistakes. The mods and I are here to help fix them, on AP. The etiquette thread is not just AP related, but internet forums in general, it is basically about being polite when you are hiding behind the anonymity the net affords. Don't be concerned about joining in, we don't let personal attacks go to far on AP, we try and ensure the site is safe for every member, but allow discussions on anything as long as members discuss the topic and not belittle/attack other members for their views. Every member is entitled to post their opinion on a thread subject.

[Kym]

In case anyone missed it...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjBSIvg3pjc

[fess67]

Everyone makes mistakes. The mods and I are here to help fix them, on AP. The etiquette thread is not just AP related, but internet forums in general, it is basically about being polite when you are hiding behind the anonymity the net affords. Don't be concerned about joining in, we don't let personal attacks go to far on AP, we try and ensure the site is safe for every member, but allow discussions on anything as long as members discuss the topic and not belittle/attack other members for their views. Every member is entitled to post their opinion on a thread subject.

I have not been as active on this forum as I would have liked due to time constraints but I thank Rick for his willingness to allow constructive debate happen on the forum. I left another forum due to the fact that we were not permitted to have the discussion we are having here. I was made to feel uncomfortable because I voiced concern about people setting up as professionals with basic knowledge and basic kit. I left that forum, here we can have the debate and I think that is important.

ps. In the film clip posted........they were using a standard kit Canon 1000D and doing 'professional' weddings. Really? does anyone think that is acceptable?

[triptych]

I think it is hilarious that the judge seems to know more about photography than the photographers!

[Jorge Arguello]

About the clip,
My understanding on the clip is the lack of professionalism of the photographer.
A professional photographer doesn’t mean is a good photographer.
I’ve seen some good photographers that are not professional photographers.
I think that camera helps but it does not make someone professional neither better photographer.

And after all the post, I’ve seen that:
When someone is good at computes without studies then people start saying:
You should work on computers, you are good at it!
When someone likes to help people with emotional issues, the people start saying:
You might be a psychologist.
Photography is another case.

I don’t think there is an easy way to achieve success.
I think that if you like what you want to do the challenge becomes part of the pleasure of doing it.

[barrythelizard]

To go back to the reasons why people think that professional photography is an easy option. Could it be that camera sales staff in camera stores plant this seed when you go into a camera store to look at/buy a camera? That is certainly my experience and I wonder if others have come across it too?

I am not a stay at home Mum, my photos are nothing to write home about, and I have no desire to become a professional photographer. I simply outgrew my point and shoot camera when I found I couldn't take certain photos I'd like to and wanted to learn how to use a camera with more options. I knew exactly what I wanted and when asked what I wanted it for I think I said so I could take close ups of pretty flowers. Straight away the salesman said that my choice would be good for that, but it was a good camera so I would also be able to use it to shoot weddings (with a bit of a wink and a nod). I couldn't think of anything more ghastly and told him so. He then went on to show me other cameras that were more 'professional' i.e. I could make money out of my hobby. It would seem to me to be a tactic to sell more expensive gear and at the same time he was pretty much saying that I could buy that camera and then go and shoot someones wedding. It would never have occurred to me to even think of shooting weddings if he hadn't mentioned it and while he was talking about it the idea seemed really plausible, until I remembered that I really don't like taking photos of people and would prefer to stick to waiting patiently for the cat to sit still, or stalking an unsuspecting flower.

Maybe this wouldn't be the only reason, but possibly a contributing factor.

[ricktas]

To go back to the reasons why people think that professional photography is an easy option. Could it be that camera sales staff in camera stores plant this seed when you go into a camera store to look at/buy a camera? That is certainly my experience and I wonder if others have come across it too?

I am not a stay at home Mum, my photos are nothing to write home about, and I have no desire to become a professional photographer. I simply outgrew my point and shoot camera when I found I couldn't take certain photos I'd like to and wanted to learn how to use a camera with more options. I knew exactly what I wanted and when asked what I wanted it for I think I said so I could take close ups of pretty flowers. Straight away the salesman said that my choice would be good for that, but it was a good camera so I would also be able to use it to shoot weddings (with a bit of a wink and a nod). I couldn't think of anything more ghastly and told him so. He then went on to show me other cameras that were more 'professional' i.e. I could make money out of my hobby. It would seem to me to be a tactic to sell more expensive gear and at the same time he was pretty much saying that I could buy that camera and then go and shoot someones wedding. It would never have occurred to me to even think of shooting weddings if he hadn't mentioned it and while he was talking about it the idea seemed really plausible, until I remembered that I really don't like taking photos of people and would prefer to stick to waiting patiently for the cat to sit still, or stalking an unsuspecting flower.

Maybe this wouldn't be the only reason, but possibly a contributing factor.

very good point there, something I had not thought of, but have heard the salespeople use as a pitch as well. Nothing like planting a seed of an idea as part of a sales pitch. "you are spending xxx why not try getting yyy back, by doing this to make some money"

[reflect]

As usual I have arrived later in the discussion. "Have a go" was seen to be an Australian ideal, but be careful about idle boasts about being a "pro", the word consistant is important in being truely professional. In my real career (the one that pays most of the bills) in the medical field, I am expected to be able to deliver the goods under all conditions performing to the limit of my knowledge to achieve an acceptable outcome. This requires more than a desire to be competent, it requires training, study, mentorship and time. Personally, I have been fumbling around with camera for over 25 years and only recently realised that I needed to study, train, obtain a mentor (or three) and gain an understanding of the realities of business, and yes, now, slowly that work is paying ( not much). Further business development is needed, and more reinvestment it the business will be required (more gear - lovely). The idea of just buying, what are in reality, very affordable high end cameras etc and starting a business is in fact nuts !. Would anybody buy one of the well marketed, proven gardening style franchises with out doing home work and deciding whether they truely had or could quickly acquire the skills to sustain the requirements of a sucsessful business, I think not. Let me say just one last thing, If you think small business is easy regardless of what shape it takes, look at the closure statistic, BUT by all means if you have the true desire to become a pro photographer (how ever you define this) go for it, just follow that old scout motto....Be Prepared. Good luck, For me its a long and exciting journey, full of twists and turns and I love every minute of it.

[winterstorm]

I was a stay at home mum wanting to start up a photography business and I must say, it is a lot of hard hard work. The hours spent on the business were long, all the planning, preparation and just learning about business in general, Apart from numerous photography courses, I also took two business courses as well as separate marketing workshops, then theres the networking meetings I went to both in the evening and early morning hours (6.30am), building relationships with complimentary businesses as well as businesses that are totally unrelated and staying up till all hours on the internet, researching, researching, researching!!! All of this while spending every spare moment taking photographs. I have been taking photos for the last 10 years but have only seriously considered starting a business with it 5 years ago. One year of dreaming and the next 4 years to build up my studio.

It got to the point, i had to put my son into daycare I was working so much

I have finally gotten to the point of being able to step back from my business. We now have a staff consisting of a couple of photographers, an assistant, a salesperson, and I also have a business partner who stepped in as a studio manager and I am finally making decent income now.

But this was a lot of hard work. Its certainly not a few hours a day while the kids are at school or while the baby is napping, but it surely can be done as long as you are not expecting that it can be don in a couple of months.. The hours it took me were much longer than a full time job and many times I wanted to give up to get a normal job. Plus the expense of equipment is not cheap plus the actual running costs of a studio.

I used to be fairly active on this forum but havent visited for gosh, I dont know, a year or two maybe, because I simply had no time. I am hoping that now the business has sorted itself out and is finally where I want it to be, I can go back to enjoying lifes little pleasures, like reading photography forums.

[ricktas]

I was a stay at home mum wanting to start up a photography business and I must say, it is a lot of hard hard work. The hours spent on the business were long, all the planning, preparation and just learning about business in general, Apart from numerous photography courses, I also took two business courses as well as separate marketing workshops, then theres the networking meetings I went to both in the evening and early morning hours (6.30am), building relationships with complimentary businesses as well as businesses that are totally unrelated and staying up till all hours on the internet, researching, researching, researching!!! All of this while spending every spare moment taking photographs. I have been taking photos for the last 10 years but have only seriously considered starting a business with it 5 years ago. One year of dreaming and the next 4 years to build up my studio.

It got to the point, i had to put my son into daycare I was working so much

I have finally gotten to the point of being able to step back from my business. We now have a staff consisting of a couple of photographers, an assistant, a salesperson, and I also have a business partner who stepped in as a studio manager and I am finally making decent income now.

But this was a lot of hard work. Its certainly not a few hours a day while the kids are at school or while the baby is napping, but it surely can be done as long as you are not expecting that it can be don in a couple of months.. The hours it took me were much longer than a full time job and many times I wanted to give up to get a normal job. Plus the expense of equipment is not cheap plus the actual running costs of a studio.

I used to be fairly active on this forum but havent visited for gosh, I dont know, a year or two maybe, because I simply had no time. I am hoping that now the business has sorted itself out and is finally where I want it to be, I can go back to enjoying lifes little pleasures, like reading photography forums.

Great post Linda. You have shown us exactly why photography isn't an easy career choice, even for someone who can dedicate a lot of their time to their business.

I find it difficult to comprehend that for some reason photography has acquired this perception that it's an 'easy' career path. Not only does this make it attractive to people who do not necessarily have the skills/gear/talent to start their own photography business, but it gives a perceived devaluation the work that you, Linda, and others put into their careers.

[Tommo1965]

LMAO..awesome post Kym... that's put me off doing a wedding....

Ive seen some of the posts that Rick is talking about in his first post...crikey I might have been guilty of writing a post or two that hes referring to myself...:lol:

I think theres a few reasons happy snappers { im in that group} think a career as a Pro TOG could be a option....some like me might be so fed up with their daily routine/work that a option of turning a coin doing something they really enjoy { at the moment} could be a way out, or a move forward for them. plus the large wad of cash they have just burnt on the new gear they have just bought could be put back into their Pocket.

After the first few months have passed..the dawning that taking consistently good Photos is very difficult and trying to turn that into a mortgage paying career is never gonna happen...we then move back to reality of loving the Hobby for what it is..a Hobby....

Id like to think I know a bit more about my Hobby/gear than the two ladies in that clip....but could I do a better job at a wedding than them...I doubt it ...self criticism is good reality check

[mikew09]

Very interesting thread Rick. It was very interesting when I first joined AP (I think about 2 yrs ago) as I did think my photos better than they were for a couple of reasons I think.
I was taking some reasonably shots at our horse association events that were received really well with some sales that paid for my flash and battery grip at the time.
Has never been my intention to go pro but I can understand the initial attraction to the business of photography. I am sure I am not the only one who sees all those grey lenses (Canon user :) ) in the bunch of pro's at sports events and etc along with some current affairs coverage about photogs who have made a living out of taking photos of like Manly beach every day and selling them. How good would that be I thought but then you have to check your emotion back into the reality corner.
I can understand the perception and I think there is a real positive in this forum for the subject of this thread and that is - the forum provides a reality check for anyone thinking going pro and thinks it is not a difficult challenge and if someone does have the passion AP can be a great resource to get you there, if you have the talent.
Personally I think the greatest mis-conception is how long it takes to build the skills, I get the feel many think it is just some good gear and a few months flapping the shutter.

Having said that I know a lovlely lady who does beautiful equine photography going from an interest that drew her to pro photography and does make a good living but with plenty of travel and weekend work.

I very quickly stopped the sale of equine photos at the horse events as I realised I was far from the skills needed and for me personaly was not delivering the quality shot I should be. My road map now is to use the 5 - 10 yrs I have left before retirement to develop a photography skill good enough to generate some part time pocket money in retirement. Not sure my super is going to cover buying new gear in retirement.:lol:

The down side is you will have to put up with my ramblings for the next 10 yrs :D.

So in summary, I suppose my point is. I think it is great that AP can provide a forum for all to put forward their future endeavours and have the chance to hear the reality of the tuff world of pro photography or build the skills to attempt that direction.

More than a pennies worth,

Mike

[kiwi]

I like to draw a parallel to wanting to be a pro photographer as to those that queue up in their 1000's at an australian idol audition

[Longshots]

and a pretty good parallel that is !

[zollo]

actually, there's probably more to it than even that. once you have become the 'star' is when the grind really starts. same with running a photography business.

[kiwi]

actually, there's probably more to it than even that. once you have become the 'star' is when the grind really starts. same with running a photography business.

Like shannon noll vs Casey chambers ?

[zollo]

lol yeah, something like that

[ricstew]

I hate to point out that Shannon and family were grinding away at he pubs and clubs long before Idol.....

[zollo]

I'm sure everyone who wins idol knows how to hold a note, eg they have been at it for a while, but not all of them make it even when they turn pro/win.

i think pubs on a wednesday night are a bit different to the endless tours, songwriting, rehearsals and pressure to perform flawlessly at every performance

[Gunnedah]

Hi All

I am a SAHM and i am interested in taking up photography as a serious hobby and maybe make a little bit on the side, but i know there is ALOT to learn and it is time consuming. I have set my aim to turn Pro in 10 years time, but for now i just want to learn as much as i can and practice as much as i can. I am about to join the local camera club . I take photos of my son (what parent dosnt) but there is so much more to take photos of.

I plan to spend alot more time on this forum and have been frequeting another photo forum for the last few months.

Em

[jev]

I find it difficult to comprehend that for some reason photography has acquired this perception that it's an 'easy' career path. Not only does this make it attractive to people who do not necessarily have the skills/gear/talent to start their own photography business, but it gives a perceived devaluation the work that you, Linda, and others put into their careers.

You hit the nail on the hit right there Rick. It's a combination of skill, gear, talent and, more than anything else, a lot of hard work to earn a living in photography as Linda illustrated so well.

Now, that's what that salesman you mentioned earlier is leaving out from his salespitch - but than again, it's not his job to tell that to customers. One can now buy "professional equipment" for a fraction of what it did cost twenty years ago, the hurdles are taken down, why not buy "pro" equipment and thus become a pro? The pitch of the salesman may not have been something he came up with himself; it's something that has been suggested by camera manufacturers, by customers that want to buy "the same" equipment as a pro and by "friends of...".

In parallel to equipment prices coming down, photography has become simplier. That's what all the marketing says too: taking a good picture doesn't you require to understand photographic concepts anymore, just push the button and the camera will do it all. And looking at what used to be produced by the general public and what is produced by these fully-automatic camera's, that is somewhat true too!

[Bushguide]

I'm only new here but I would have thought regardless of whether it's photography or anything else, calling yourself professional is as much about your attitude and ethics as it is about whether people like your photographs. I would imagine that there are many photographers who take outstanding pictures but never make a cent from it but conduct themselves with ethics and a professional attitude and then there would be photographers who skills just aren't up to scratch and wouldn't know what ethics were who make money from it. Who would you class as the professional?

[kiwi]

professional is an attitude as well as a description as well as having different interpretations depending on various different organisations or bodies.

Example - I am an amateur golfer and win a competition and its the fluke and i'll never do it again but part of the prize was $50 in prizemoney that I accept - am I amateur now or professional ?

[Bushguide]

I don't know Kiwi, I don't play golf :D

[kiwi]

I don't know Kiwi, I don't play golf :D

lol, ok

Example - I am an amateur photographer and win a competition and its the fluke and i'll never do it again but part of the prize was $50 in prizemoney that I accept - am I amateur now or professional ?

[Bushguide]

Hmm tricky question ;) I'm a Lawyer, I work for a Professional Law Firm am I a professional and is the firm I work for Professional? I would hope so :D otherwise there might be a lot of people running around which shouldn't be :o

I still think it's more about the way you conduct yourself which shows professionalism rather than solely if you make money from it. Now when I think more about it, if it was only about making money then drug dealers would be classed as profesionals :)

[kiwi]

they are professional drug dealers, are they acting professionally - within the realms of their "career" probably. Are they unethical low-life scum - yes.

[Bushguide]

Very true Kiwi but we are way off topic here and I have some work to do cheers

[eloki]

You call yourself a professional photographer (or any other profession) if you're making a living out of it. Yes?

[ricktas]

You call yourself a professional photographer (or any other profession) if you're making a living out of it. Yes?

Not necessarily! You cannot call yourself a brain surgeon without having the qualifications to do so. Calling yourself professional and being professional in your approach, services, products, with the skill to undertake any work that is required of you within your chosen field, are two very different things.

[Sezzy]

OH MY WORD!!! Finally someone has come out with it (and the owner no less)!!!

I am a wannabeeee....I have been lucky to take a few good images but to be honest it was due to luck over skill. I would love to do 'this' as a profession but I know that I simply cannot produce the goods consistently to make it. I am sick to death of the 'stay at home mums' who think that all it takes to be a successful photographer is to shoot 'Billy" in his favourite sleep suit and bib and that makes it a good photo. To Mum it is a sweet pic and soooo adorable...but you know what, it ain't gonna make you a pro!!!

That said, we see the posts time and again so it is not going to change. The pattern is....get pregnant....have kid...take pics...family member says 'WOW they are so good, you should be a pro".... rest of the world goes 'crap....another idiot into the fray!!'

Sorry for being so blunt but man it does annoy me so.

I'll add to that...and it comes up regularly in my education degree...they start by saying 'Hi, I'm a stay at home mum, and I'm studying childcare, or I'm studying education.' It's not an easy degree by any stretch...but they seem to think it is...and some (unfortunately) believe that having one or two children equates to being good with all children, and understand the psychological concepts behind learning yada yada yada.

It's unfortunate that this is becoming the 'norm'...in the age of digital technology, cameras have the ability now to make people's photographs look 'good'. Note I said 'good', not awesome, not professional, but good. If someone shows you a photo of their baby...I don't know anyone who will say it's an ugly photo, we're all a little bit 'nice' for that honesty that is required sometimes. I think it extends beyond the SAHM and SAHD as well though, it's a psychological thing now, where everyone was taught to be the best they could be, and aspire to achieve more. I guess these people are just aspiring to achieve more, and there's nothing wrong with that.

The problem is they never give themselves any constructive criticism...they're not realists with themselves....

They don't critically judge their work (artistic or otherwise) in the same fashion that a professional (or even semi-professional, semi-serious but not professional) person does. And that's not just SAHM&D, that's becoming the norm...

And when someone 'does' give them constructive criticism, they say 'what would you know?'

I worked in a newspaper taking photo's, I'm by no means a professional, I was simply a work experience student who was good at what she did...I never went and studied about cameras, I was self taught (with some input from Phil Biggs and my dad who taught photography to high school students)...I was out of photography for eight years (I still had my P&S, and some of the photo's were 'good', but nothing that anyone should have to be asked to pay for)...and only now...after twelve months of severe criticism to myself am I getting back to what I used to do...and actually re-learning what I used to know...

[Xenedis]

Hmm tricky question ;) I'm a Lawyer, I work for a Professional Law Firm am I a professional and is the firm I work for Professional?

The crucial difference between what you do for a living, and what a lot of people aspire to do (or actually do) for a living, is that you cannot just go out, buy yourself a wig and silk, call yourself a lawyer and start your own legal firm.

However, you can go out, buy a camera, call yourself a professional photographer and start a photography business.

While there isn't any formal qualification or accreditation one needs to become a professional photographer, there are some people out there who've done it and have been, and continue to be, successful.

However, that situation also means that anyone with a DSLR camera and a 'nice image' (according to Aunty Ethel) can go out and become a self-proclaimed professional photographer, but the unfortunate reality for many of those types is that they need to not only be better photographers than they think (or have been told) they are, but they need to be business people more than photographers.

[Sakhi]

I'm a full time photographer. During the week I shoot real estate, and on weekends I photograph weddings. As far as being a professional, well, I think I'm. On the point of educating the public which was raised earlier, I think we have a big problem. Let me share with you a bit about a situation I'm currently facing.
I did a fair bit of work for a particular community group (60 weddings last year). To this group, video is more important, so it would be the first thing they'd book, and they would ask about photographers. The video guy, which did around 95% of the weddings for this particular community group, decided to buy a 7D and hand it to his brother who worked for him as an editor. They started offering video and photo packages way less than what we can deliver and maintain quality.
The problem is that the brother has no real interest in photography (I know him personally), but the public is happy with the cheap price.
I've been trying to find a way to get the message out that wedding photography is not just about a clear picture.
I agree with Rick, the public needs to know that a professional photographer is not the one with the bigger lens!

[zollo]

Not necessarily! You cannot call yourself a brain surgeon without having the qualifications to do so. Calling yourself professional and being professional in your approach, services, products, with the skill to undertake any work that is required of you within your chosen field, are two very different things.

I think that one probably could lie/hack their way into a brain surgeon's job, but one would quickly find out they cannot make their living out of it this way. By being a hack.
Therefore I still mostly agree with the quote below, if one successfully makes their income from photography and continues to do so, they are professional photographers. Now their work may not be up to a certain standard so they charge less or whatever, but that is a different discussion, due to the fact that photography is unregulated, or it's one's business model, or one is just starting out, whatever.

And lets remember, even in regulated industries, you still get good and bad quality. There are many examples of no good doctors, no good lawyers, politicians:D I've had electricians (licensed) do very dodgy work before, so its not like just because an industry is regulated it is automatically a warranty that all work will be top notch. you do usually get what you pay for, regulated or unregulated.


You call yourself a professional photographer (or any other profession) if you're making a living out of it

[Pixley]

Sakhi,if photos are of secondary importance and they are happy with a video and a few mediocre pics then what is the problem? Not all peopel want (or expect) the same thing. Some couples don't even employ any type of photoghrapher and are happy with all the happy snaps from their guests - do you want to convince them otherwise as well?

[ricktas]

Sakhi,if photos are of secondary importance and they are happy with a video and a few mediocre pics then what is the problem? Not all peopel want (or expect) the same thing. Some couples don't even employ any type of photoghrapher and are happy with all the happy snaps from their guests - do you want to convince them otherwise as well?

I agree, if people (clients/customers) know what they are getting, its all good.

But this is deviating from the original topics of WHY photography is seen as an easy career choice, when the reality is that to be a professional photographer isn't 'easy'!

[Pixley]

It might also be that all first time Mums (and Dads) get a Pixie photo voucher in their Bounty bag - go and get some photos done - pay way over the odds for some really really cruddy photos and think (on reflection) they could do a better job themselves! And some could (after various lengths of time).

[mechawombat]

I think I take better pics of my son than those shopping centre studios. I have duds we all do, But I actually HATE those run of the mill studio type pics they actually dont capture the innocence and greatness that is childhood.

And yes I am a Part time SAHD!

[Allie]

........What makes the stay at home mum (and others) believe that a course and a DSLR will turn them into a professional photographer? We .... see these introduction posts and then within a week or two, they stop posting and we never hear from them again. Is that because they have succeeded in setting up their business or is it that they have realised that being a professional photographer is not as easy as they thought it would be, and have moved onto another idea?

Is it AP's role to educate people in this regard? Is it a lack of research by the person seeking to take up photography as a career?

......... I find it concerning that photography obviously appeals as an easy career option, when the reality is far removed from that.



As to the why people consider photography as a possible career or money making venture:

• professional quality cameras have become within the reach of many more people simply on price alone;
• digitalisation of images together with enhancing software and the decreasing cost of memory cards has meant that photography is not as cost prohibitive as it was with film;
• the automation of a lot of the processes for taking a photo (or many) mean that the chances of producing images which are in focus and relatively well balanced with regard to light are also increased;
• more information, reviews and “how to”s are readily available on the internet and freely offered on forums such as this as well as by reviewers and blogs.

So is it really any wonder that photography is seen as a possible, maybe even easy, career or money making profession by more people than it once was but .... that also applies erroneously to many other professions.

The ability to become professional in any field is based on much more than simply stating an intention. In that light, I don’t see it as the role of a forum such as this to be the educator or advisor on how difficult it is to become a professional photographer. I thought this place was about helping people become better photographers for themselves – what they do with that knowledge or whatever else they get out of this forum is up to them. It is plenty obvious to anyone actually using this forum for the wonderful resource it is, that there is much more to photography than simply taking a photo whether or not anyone will pay you to do so.

[whytebate]

Great thread & subject of conversation - really got me thinking!
Becoming Pro - such a big statement in itself - does one become Pro by simply charging for the photos they take? Anyone who claims to be a pro on that basis, might be a little out of touch with reality. Photography, like any other career takes years of hard work, study & the ability (read skill) to deliver on a brief or commission; be it a portrait shoot, a wedding, commercial shoot or whatever.
Digital SLR's have enabled everyday people to take better photos than ever before. Often, accidentally or otherwise, exceptional photos happen. Much like occasionally (by sheer miracle) I swing a golf club and the ball heads in the right direction.
The immediacy of digital enables people to share their photos - generally with their friends & family. I'd suggest that all it takes is a few people to say, hey can you take a photo of such & such & then, before you know it, amateur photographers find themselves "financing" a hobby.

I am an amateur photographer & I have a full time job doing something not terribly related to my photography. I take photos because I love taking photos & I love the challenge photography presents to me. I attend workshops, read manuals, get out & practice & meet & learn form other photographers. What terrifies me in some workshops I participate in, is those people with entry level cameras, kit lenses & with all due respect, very little idea, who have BOOKED a wedding. I mean, WOW. Not a friend's wedding, but a strangers wedding. I agree with a previous poster to a regard, best of luck to the hapless couple who choose a photographer without understanding their ability (or lack of) to best perform the task. It does make me wonder though what delusion someone is under that they think they can bust on out & just shoot a wedding - this is someone's wedding day - you generally only get one crack at getting the shots. (blimey, off my soapbox now)

[Sakhi]

My point was (which I didn't make clear earlier), that as professional photographers we need to protect the integrity of our profession.
New technology has made it easier to create a clear image. Mix that with a bit of dof and some special effects in PP and you have images that get the wow factor. But when you dig a bit dipper, you can see that the photographer might have the technical skill, but no artistic talent.
IMO, photography is more about the art than the technical skills. But a lot of "professional" photographers are surviving on the technical skills alone, and when your everyday person with a DSLR snaps a couple of shots that compare to those being passed as of professional standard, their confidence is boosted, and they start a business.
The message needs to be out there that it is not about what camera or lenses you have. Most of the greats in photographer did their best work over 50 years ago. There was no VR lenses then, or what ever else...

This subject has touched a nerve with me. I decided to take my work to a higher standard, but it meant that I had to put my prices up. Now I'm struggling to compete because of the low prices available.
I spend time on developing and testing shots and ideas, so I don't keep on repeating myself at every wedding. That costs time and sometimes money. But once you have released the shot to the client or in an ad. others see it, and end up copying it.

I think that the profession has been cheapened and the standards have been dropped by over excited people who see a quick buck...

[kiwi]

I can understand the upset but I think the reality is that the trend is only increasing so it's how you deal with it (ignoring or managing) is what counts

I can't see any possible way of stopping or counselling those new with cameras providing relatively low cost and possibly low quality work to the public.

[Pixley]

On another photography forum I frequent there tends to be a lot of first time posters saying "I am an 18 year old guy looking to become a pro. What type of gear should I buy?". So maybe it is a demographic thing. This website gets 30+ women asking the question - other websites gets younger males asking a similar question. Who would have thunk it??

[Xenedis]

I've felt for years that the proliferation of digital imaging has put cameras into the hands of people who would have never bothered to own a camera otherwise.

I dare say some people whose first camera is a current-model DSLR may not even know that SLRs existed for decades before someone stuck a D on the front. Some of them may have never seen 135-format film, much less heard the term.

The problem isn't so much the fact that the proliferation of more easily affordable, very capable cameras has created in some people an impression that they can be 'professional photographers' by merely owning a good camera and having taken a 'nice shot'.

Y'see, those people who go into business without a real understanding of what they're doing -- and of the critical business side of the business -- will soon enough go bust and get a very harsh dose of reality, learning very quickly indeed that no, they don't have what it takes.

The real problem is the devaluing of good photography in the minds of the general public.

As more and more images get captured and published by more and more amateur photographers, the general public's perception of the value of photography will continue to decline.

People won't (and already don't) understand why a wedding photographer can cost upwards of $5K.

They don't understand the difference between some Johnny-come-lately with a half-decent DSLR, and an experienced, business-savvy photographer who understands that the least important factor in great, successful, money-making photography is the actual camera itself.

Images have become commoditised. Unrealistic expectations about the availability of images, and the cost of images, have been set, and will continue to dominate thinking.

The real losers are the experienced, clued-up professional photographers. They are more and more being under-cut by Johnny-come-latelys, and are trying to sell a product to a buying public which is increasingly losing (or has lost) its ability to understand the difference between a real professional photographer worth his or her salt, and a wannabe with expensive gear and some completely unrealistic expectation that being interested in photography and having good gear is all it takes to be a professional photographer.

It's a trend we're not seeing in other industries.

One cannot go out and buy a scalpel, and declare oneself a surgeon. Other industries are regulated, and to be a professional practitioner in those industries is not something that is easily or quickly achieved. Anything of value cannot come easily.

If by some remote chance it were possible for other professions to be swamped by wannabes, there'd be alarm in the minds of the public. If just anyone could practice law or medicine without any qualifications, there'd be outrage and panic.

The fact that seemingly anyone can become a professional photographer -- or more precisely, one who starts a small photography business for the purpose of making a living -- seems not to incite alarm or real concern outside the photographic community.

Speaking as someone who is not a professional photographer and has no desire to be a professional photographer, I cannot at all see why someone would consider that career an easy choice. It seems quite difficult to me, in fact.

[Bally]

Wow, lots of thoughts on this topic. Very interesting. First of all, as rick said, you can't run around and call yourself a doctor with the proper training, but I can call myself a financial advisor with minimal training and a bunch of brochures from my not so caring boss and go out and cause not a little damage, more so perhaps than cocking up a wedding. The point of this being, photography isn't anythng like a profession such as law, medicine or engineering, where education is mandatory. So lets not over rate it.

Experience is all that is needed to learn photography, experience, and enquiring mind and access to resources such as the interweb. All you pros out there should deal with that, IMHO. Education, being spoon fed the information and classroom taught the theory is certainly a leg up for anyone, but its won't guarentee they will be any better than someone self taught.

Secondly, there are plenty of other industries where a hobbiest can out perform the pros, gardening/lanscaping/interior design/wood work to name just a few on what would be a very long list I'm sure.

My own industry has been devalued by the ability of non professionals to call themselves professionals in my opinion, but having said that some of those people have gone on to be great for the industry and their customers. (IT that is) How IT has dealt with this is that the good IT techs continue to learn and improve and move out of the commoditised areas of IT or they die(move into something else)

This is the choice that is facing photographers, again IMHO. The industry is becoming commoditised, improvements in equipment is removing whole market segments, changes in tech get rid of even more, pics that would never of been printed 20 years ago are now displayed over the internet, and hard copies are rarely if ever produced.

NB Change happens, deal with it. As Kiwi said earlier, not complaining but how you deal with the reality will decide what happens to individual professional togs.
Protesting that someone is doing the work that I should be doing/calling themselves pros and taking away my livelihood is hardly productive. Identifying where the industry is going and getting in front of it is.

Also I would like to suggest, and agree, as has been stated here many times before by the likes of Kym etc, that a Pro spend 80% of time running the business, 20% doing the pics. I would suggest that an A+ business person with D photo skills might just be way more successful than an A+ tog with D business skills. I could also suggest that there are many niche areas waiting to be explored and discovered, and run efficiently. That a good business person may turn into the next lipsick Poppy story, or fresh juice success. And this will happen, not because they are good togs, but because they are good business people. So for me don't underestimate the housewife that wants to run her own business, tog or other.

I've been involved in three businesses outside of my own industry over the years, lost some, made some. I knew nothing about any of them when I started, but no one in those industries would have walked out of any of my businesses thinking I was anything else except a pro. I know a woman, who had one minor skill in IT and put it to work while she raised her two kids, within 12 months she was employing 6 full time staff doing it for her. Good business skills beat good tech skills every time.

While you admire your works, and the beauty you've created as pro togs, and look down at the obvious lack of ability amongst the amateurs, watch out they don't become pro at an area of togging that you hadn't thought of, make a fortune, hire a better tog thatn you for hands on instruction and sit on the beach laughing whilst their works of art are displayed all around the world. You might still be complaing about the change in your industry while it happens.

Just my .02 American pesos worth

[ricktas]

Bally, some great discussion points there, but you have missed the original point, and that is why is photography seen as an EASY career choice?

I wasn't talking about serious hobbyists here. To use your analogy, yes there are some great gardeners out there who could easily move into business and become landscapers for one and all. But have you ever known someone to buy a spade and dig up a small corner of their yard, then go "Oh I can do this, lets setup a landscaping company". For someone to setup and run a successful wood-working company, they either need to employ skilled trade, or know a fair bit about wood-work themselves, they cannot buy a lathe and be in business a month later, with no prior experience with wood at all. Yet people buy a DSLR and want to do exactly that as a photographer

This thread is about WHY photography is seen as an EASY career option, not about the transition from serious amateur to Pro. The discussion is about why photography is perceived as being "Buy DSLR and become a Pro Photographer", without any prior photographic skill.

[Pixley]

Or is it also a function of the internet and internet forums? People can voice things on an anonymous internet forum that they perhaps would not voice to their friends or family and test the waters so to speak (for fear of being made fun of). Call it musing out loud! They may then get a reality check and choose to persue it or they may not and dissapear off the forum - and as the OP pointed out. The internet has also altered how people communicate.

Just as an aside - I was reading a recent book showcasing American Photographers last night and it had their bios at the back. More than half had no formal training and just picked it up as they went along and many had a little bit of success and a bit of encouragement early and they ended up "a pro". Everyone needs to start somewhere - some will have a good idea of what it involves - some will not. Just goes to show everyone comes to things in different ways with different expectations.

[kiwi]

I blame FLICKR and Facebook

Like without critique

[Xenedis]

Just to expand upon my previous post, let it be known that I do not for a moment begrudge anyone who has had no formal training and has become an excellent photographer, and perhaps excellent business person who runs a photography business. Australia is the land of giving it a go (when we're not all bludging at the beach on a summer Friday).

What I am saying is that other industries are regulated, and you cannot just lob up at those with all the enthusiasm in the world, the gear a pro would use, and an artificially-inflated sense of photographic ability. It's just not that simple.

If you want to run a photography business, not only do you need to be an excellent photographer, but you need to be a savvy business person.

I suspect that a lot of people who think they are half-decent at photography and have a desire to turn it into a career may have been inadvertently led to believe they are better than they actually are; and more critically, they may grossly under-estimate the amount of work involved in the business side of the business.

A comment of "fantastic shot" given to an amateur photographer may be given by someone who has no photographic knowledge or ability whatsoever, and "fantastic shot" may simply mean "your photo is far better than anything I could do".

Have those amateur photographers, who think they've got the stuff, had their work assessed by industry photographers and informed judges of serious competitions? Aunty Ethel's high praise of some extremely mediocre images an amateur took at a mate's wedding is hardly an indicator of ability.

There are some excellent amateur photographers out there. I'm not saying they're all inept at photography. The critical point is that a high standard of photographic ability is one of the ingredients needed for a career in photography. It's a crucial ingredient, but it's still far short of what it takes.

Why do people think it's easy to become a professional, even if they possess an enormous amount of photographic talent?

Starting a business doesn't seem easy. Keeping it running, and profitable, seems like a much harder job.

Do people consider careers as professional photographer easy because they are oblivious to the fact that good images is only a small part of it?

[zollo]

why is photography seen as an EASY career choice?

Because people who perceive that it is easy, don't know any better. thats basically what it comes down to. some might succeed others, not...

[Bally]

Rick,

Your right, I probably did miss the original point, and was shotgunning a response to some of the other comments so.......

Why is photography seen as an EASY career choice?

Because with todays equipment a total newbie can get 80% of the result with none of the work. They are innocent enough not to know the difference between ok, good, great and f'ing superb.

Without the knowledge/brainwashing of what is a good pic they can point/shoot and end up with a well framed in focus pic. The pic that moves them in the magazine is well framed and in focus. (and if it aint well framed I can crop with free tools, not pay someone else like in the days of film to do it for me)

The media perception of togs cepting maybe pap types is cool creative attractive people hanging with other cool attractive creative people doing exciting jobs, mainly taking pictures of even cooler more exciting people.

So they take well framed in focus pics, I can crop and take in focus pics. Thank you autofocus and IS.

So far so cruisy. So what is hard, what's not to like. Even the pics or togs in war zones show cool sexy people, out cooling even the SAS or whoever. Not much mainstream mention of those that got shot doing it.

No one makes movies about the struggling small businessman tog, whose wife left him for the Beamer driving real estate agent in Blackmans Bay.

And no one, not even me, who has done it enough times to know, thinks about how hard a new business is. You do a business case, not even that if you are naive enough(note I say naive, not stupid) and charge ahead if you are excited, or not, and someone else does it and succeeds....... or fails.

Rick said To use your analogy, yes there are some great gardeners out there who could easily move into business and become landscapers for one and all.
But have you ever known someone to buy a spade and dig up a small corner of their yard, then go "Oh I can do this, lets setup a landscaping company".

And to a degree I accept that, but I know people who have had not much idea and less hours on a lawn mower than a camera that have started and made plenty of money from mowing lawns and moving up from there. Very analogous to your buying the SLR and starting a tog business. Except there are more lawns than photo purchasers about is my guess.

I believe Jim of Jim's Mowing fame is the biggest example of a man that had know no more experience with lawns than his own, (just took happy snaps) and built a business from it. And although I wouldn't call him a pro lawn mower, McDonalds isn't in the business of cooking either

So that is why I think photography is seen as an easy career

[Longshots]

Its not easy . But that shouldnt preclude people from giving it a go. But if you think its easy - then you're kidding yourself "a newbie can get 80% of the result with none of the work" ? best quote I've read in a long time. Unfortunately, thats a belief held by many and its highly misleading. Taking the picture is the easy part. Making a business out of it is the art, skill and craft. And thats what keeps people in business.

And as for taking the analogy of those who have made a business out of the gardening and turning that around into a multi million dollar business - sure it can be done, but you clearly missed the point as you may have missed the hard work, hard graft, and people behaving "professionally" with proper insurance, workers comp, public libality, capital investment, wages, tax, BAS, all done correctly if you think thats easy. Any self employed business person at the moment will tell you its good old fashioned hard work. And like any business, photography requires all of those and more. There are few businesses I can think of that needs to face the huge changes to its industry that its faced over the last decade.

I'm a self taught self starter, with a multi faceted career or careers and there isnt any business in my opinion - thats right ANY business - thats easy. Its hard work, always has been, and continues to be. And the area of photography has a never ending supply of delusionals that think a "professional" camera (and its the manafacturers who encourage this ridiculous assumption *), free website, cheap business card, is the key to financial success.

They start by giving their work away for free, because everyone has to start somewhere, and then they progress to charging something, and then realise that they've just given up their safe employed job because theyre so busy doing all of those free shoots, (which they do some sums and assume that they can produce that much interest as soon as they charge something for them).

Then they start complaining because people are "ruining the industry" because those others are giving away their work for free. How can they compete ? As forums and the net have been around so long now, I've witnessed people following what becomes a consistent pattern.

Now I dont think there's anything wrong with giving it a go. After all thats exactly how I started. The only exception is I didnt base my start in photography by giving my work away.

If you dont value yourself, no one else will.

But like any business, its wise to know what you're getting into. And I'm well aware of the time constraints it takes for a photographic business - part time or full time. Sure its great sometimes, but at others its hard on everyone around you.

I dont know the statistics, but I'm reasonably sure that 80% of new businesses fail in the first 2 years. I'm quite sure that if all new photographic businesses or ventures were registered that the percentage would be even higher.

I dont always agree with Redgum, but again I'm quite sure he's said roughly the same thing in this topic (apologies if he hasnt) that taking the picture isnt the important thing, but how to make the business work is.

Thats not easy.

[Sakhi]

Do you guys think that with so much 80% shots out there, that in the eyes of the public it has become 100%? (if you know what I mean!)

I also feel that with so much reference to business, we are forgetting that photography is an art. It can't be compared to cutting grass!
I think the original point is more in reference to how hard it is to make a photograph of artistic value than how much money can be made!

[Longshots]

Do you guys think that with so much 80% shots out there, that in the eyes of the public it has become 100%? (if you know what I mean!)

I also feel that with so much reference to business, we are forgetting that photography is an art. It can't be compared to cutting grass!
I think the original point is more in reference to how hard it is to make a photograph of artistic value than how much money can be made!

Well Sakhi, I gain 100% of my income from photography - all aspects of it, which means I describe myself as a photographer, and NO, thanks, I'm not forgetting the art of photography at all.

Sorry, but I dont think you've actually read the first and original topic, because its certainly not referring to the art of producing an image.

The topic was about the business of photography, and those (larger and larger numbers) who see it as an easy career, an easy business, and the resulting over saturation of what is a vastly shrinking market.

There is a big difference to being able to produce a great shot - not just when you're inspired, or when you can choose your subject, but its ANOTHER thing entirely to do that on a day to day business, and produce images for a living.

Here let me remind you of the original post:


Owning a forum, I get to see some repeating patterns in the way people post. One that always intrigues me is the stay at home mum’s who join up and announce they are planning on becoming a professional photographer.

I often wonder what makes photography appear as a good profession for them to pursue when they have a young family. Those of us that know what goes into being a professional photographer, are very aware that it is demanding, time consuming, and hard enough when you don’t have children to attend to.

The market is over-saturated with photographers and it can be damn hard work, yet for some reason the ‘public’ perception is far removed from reality.

What makes the stay at home mum (and others) believe that a course and a DSLR will turn them into a professional photographer? We so often see these introduction posts and then within a week or two, they stop posting and we never hear from them again. Is that cause they have succeeded in setting up their business or is it that they have realised that being a professional photographer is not as easy as they thought it would be, and have moved onto another idea?

Is it AP's role to educate people in this regard? Is it a lack of research by the person seeking to take up photography as a career?

I am always happy to see someone succeed with the career choice they have chosen, but I find it concerning that photography obviously appeals as an easy career option, when the reality is far removed from that.

There is no reference to how to produce a good artistic image - none at all.

[Sakhi]

There is also no reference to BAS and GST.

What I'm reading in the original post points towards the idea that someone picks up a camera and and by chance produces a couple of aesthetically pleasing shots, and they think they can do that on constant bases.

I too make 100% of my living out of photography. Mainly wedding photography. It is a struggle to be creative and original. It takes a lot of time, research, testing, etc. Which I did a lot of this winter, in preparation for the coming season.

How about we let Rick settle this? :p

[Xenedis]

How about we let Rick settle this? :p

I'm not sure there's anything to settle.

He's made it clear on numerous times in this thread that he's interested in knowing WHY people think photography is an easy career choice.

[Bally]

Longshots, I'm not sure how you mis-interpreted my post, please go back and read it and my earlier posit in this topic as I think we are in violent agreement.. If after reading both you still think you should have posted your last, let me know,

[ricktas]

There is also no reference to BAS and GST.

What I'm reading in the original post points towards the idea that someone picks up a camera and and by chance produces a couple of aesthetically pleasing shots, and they think they can do that on constant bases.

I too make 100% of my living out of photography. Mainly wedding photography. It is a struggle to be creative and original. It takes a lot of time, research, testing, etc. Which I did a lot of this winter, in preparation for the coming season.

How about we let Rick settle this? :p

But BAS and GST are part of any business model in Australia. I started the thread about WHY photography is seen as an easy career choice. If I include BAS and GST, I would have had to include logo design, business name, registration, business cards, marketing in print, flyers, client interaction and retention, word of mouth, charging, superannuation, insurance, etc etc. I wasn't about to start specifying all aspects of running a business.

The question was simply. WHY is photography seen as an easy career to undertake by SAHM (and others)? What has happened to cause this perception to be out their for the un-informed, to think it is EASY -buy camera, start charging?

[Bally]

Not to repeat myself, but....
Because with todays equipment a total newbie can get 80% of the result with none of the work. They are innocent enough not to know the difference between ok, good, great and f'ing superb.

Without the knowledge/brainwashing of what is a good pic they can point/shoot and end up with a well framed in focus pic. The pic that moves them in the magazine is well framed and in focus. (and if it aint well framed I can crop with free tools, not pay someone else like in the days of film to do it for me)

The media perception of togs cepting maybe pap types is cool creative attractive people hanging with other cool attractive creative people doing exciting jobs, mainly taking pictures of even cooler more exciting people.

So they take well framed in focus pics, I can crop and take in focus pics. Thank you autofocus and IS.

So far so cruisy. So what is hard, what's not to like. Even the pics or togs in war zones show cool sexy people, out cooling even the SAS or whoever. Not much mainstream mention of those that got shot doing it.

No one makes movies about the struggling small businessman tog, whose wife left him for the Beamer driving real estate agent in Blackmans Bay.

And no one, not even me, who has done it enough times to know, thinks about how hard a new business is. You do a business case, not even that if you are naive enough(note I say naive, not stupid) and charge ahead if you are excited, or not, and someone else does it and succeeds....... or fails.

Rick said To use your analogy, yes there are some great gardeners out there who could easily move into business and become landscapers for one and all.
But have you ever known someone to buy a spade and dig up a small corner of their yard, then go "Oh I can do this, lets setup a landscaping company".

And to a degree I accept that, but I know people who have had not much idea and less hours on a lawn mower than a camera that have started and made plenty of money from mowing lawns and moving up from there. Very analogous to your buying the SLR and starting a tog business. Except there are more lawns than photo purchasers about is my guess.

I believe Jim of Jim's Mowing fame is the biggest example of a man that had know no more experience with lawns than his own, (just took happy snaps) and built a business from it. And although I wouldn't call him a pro lawn mower, McDonalds isn't in the business of cooking either

So that is why I think photography is seen as an easy career

[Longshots]

I'm not sure there's anything to settle.

He's made it clear on numerous times in this thread that he's interested in knowing WHY people think photography is an easy career choice.

As Rick started this conversation - with the original topic, which I helpfully requoted, I cant see what there is to settle either - its crystal clear that hes asking why people see photography as an easy career. Now I personally dont give much of a hoot about much else other than to say, that career, means in my personal view business, and that also means whats involved in making that as a business.

Now fortunately, or unfortunately, I'm now in the photography business, producing and developing the art of my work (albeit that is just as an aside), and trying to stay in Business to continue my career.

So without a great deal of disrespect to many intelligent, experienced people here, and no disrespect to many who are both semi and full time professional; I happen to think that someone from a similar standpoint as myself would be a little better informed to state whether my industry is an easy choice, when it comes to making it a career, than someone who has stuff all experience of selling a shot.

Now if you want to argue that the career is perceived as glamorous - yes its often thought of as that. But again in practice, its not.

And again, no disrespect to many others working in jobs that are dam hard work, and ones that are fighting to stay alive in business.

But to personally respond to Ricks post, is my perogative, so please dont insult me and tell me what the topic is about and what its not.

And Bally - yes we're in agreement. I read, reread, and then reread your post again, and in all honesty it could be taken many different ways,.

[Longshots]

But BAS and GST are part of any business model in Australia. I started the thread about WHY photography is seen as an easy career choice. If I include BAS and GST, I would have had to include logo design, business name, registration, business cards, marketing in print, flyers, client interaction and retention, word of mouth, charging, superannuation, insurance, etc etc. I wasn't about to start specifying all aspects of running a business.

The question was simply. WHY is photography seen as an easy career to undertake by SAHM (and others)? What has happened to cause this perception to be out their for the un-informed, to think it is EASY -buy camera, start charging?

I had initially posted a lengthy story about an experience I had in my local camera store (PhotoContinental in Brisbane). I was picking up something I'd ordered, and while I waited for it to be collected from the store room, I was just browsing around the shop.

I suddenly overheard a raised voice "But thats not a professional camera is it !! ? ". I dont often listen into a conversation, but this guy was being beligerent. "where does it say its a professional camera" he demanded from the very knowledgeable sales assistant (I know the sales person). " no, no, no" he continued with his raised voice. "I must have a "professional" camera".

It was clear from everything the guy said that knew nothing about cameras, zero. But to keep this brief he explained that the reason he "must have a professional camera" was because he was going into business as a photographer !

I swear this is the truth.

He explained in an incredibly condescending way to the sales person, that he wanted to see what "professional" cameras were available, as this would be his new business.

The sales person moved from demonstrating the Canon 600D, and Nikon equivalent - to the 7D. And it was only when the customer was shown the word professional within the manufacturers marketing blurb that he seemed placated.

As it happens, he could have been shown or sold a much lower spec camera, that doesnt matter at all. I personally started my career with an entry level Nikon a Nikkormat, with a 50mm standard lens. Thats all I needed and no one asked me what I shot my first shot on when it was sold. Nor did my clients question me when I produced a variety of marketing images just over ten years ago on the Canon D30 (not the 30D), a 3 megapixel camera, for a national company, which amongst many things were used for posters and supersized bill boards.

And again, without any exageration or lie, this guy clearly had bought the crap marketing lines from companies such as Canon, Sony, Nikon, Olympus - most of them in fact, who "tag" a camera, or "printer" with the word professional, and the masses buy it up like there's no tomorrow.

Doesnt matter even if you buy the very best gear available. The reality is thats not going to put you into immediate business or give you a career as a professional photographer. That takes effort. And thats not easy.

I will agree with Bally (again :) ) that its easier to produce an image now with the technology thats available. And its even easier with the lack of understanding

So to repeat myself - from direct experience of my own, and watching many others fail, its definitely not easy. Thats my personal opinion.

To directly answer Ricks original question - In my opinion, why does the perception grow ? I believe its a result of the deliberately misleading and lazy marketing from manufacturers who appeal to peoples egos, before they can use their logic, and probably mainly because of the internet, because of the delusional thinking where any negative comment is either ignored or seen as an attack, and rrarely is feedback ever analysed in a logical constructive manner to produce real positive growth.

[Longshots]

Longshots, I'm not sure how you mis-interpreted my post, please go back and read it and my earlier posit in this topic as I think we are in violent agreement.. If after reading both you still think you should have posted your last, let me know,
Yep misread/misunderstood your post - :) Sorry.

[WhoDo]

Why do SAHM and others think photography is an "easy" career choice? Marketing. DSLR manufacturer's are all touting how easy it has become to get "professional results" with their equipment. That promotes the market for their gear. Leave the DSLR in Auto and yes, taking good snaps is just as easy as a P&S only with better results (bigger sensor, better programming, etc). So the plebs start thinking "Ooh, I can do this and get rid of my sh!tty job digging ditches, ironing clothes and folding nappies, or selling Avon door-to-door!"

People are easily lead by marketing hype. If they weren't there would be no multi-million dollar profit-making companies out there. The reality doesn't bite until the investment is too high to ignore. Then they either have to sell their crap cheap to make anything or give it away and swallow the loss. Being in your own business, as Bill said, is plain HARD WORK. I've been there, so I know first hand. There are NO free rides. Even the Real Estate mouthpiece with his BMW is probably in hock to the eyeballs and trying anything, lying about anything, to dig himself out!

I'm still amazed by how many less than knowledgeable viewers tell me how "professional" my photography is. Fortunately, through AP and other avenues, I know better; I can tell the difference. And even if I couldn't, I know enough about running a business to know that I don't want to ever do it again UNLESS there is a guaranteed $1m pa profit to be made from only 20 hours per week! :D

[Xenedis]

Marketing. DSLR manufacturer's are all touting how easy it has become to get "professional results" with their equipment.

Ah, but it is!

Didn't you read the fine print annotated with an asterisk?

Get professional results!*

* Clue not included.

[kiwi]

I also think its worth differentiating (becuase there is a huge difference) those that think they can do 10 hours a week taking photos for $ (I hesitate using the P word) and the gap from there (which is probably the major aspiration of a SOHM) and being a FT Pro.

[zollo]

yeah\

I'm buying the same bike Cadel Evans used in the tour this year, so next year you should see me on the podium :D

[zollo]

WHY is photography seen as an easy career to undertake by SAHM (and others)? What has happened to cause this perception to be out their for the un-informed, to think it is EASY -buy camera, start charging?

The very opening paragraph had me in fits :umm:

http://www.simplymakemoneyfromhome.com/homephotographybusiness.html

[kiwi]

Egads, that's terrible stuff, so many inaccuracies but I bet they haul a fair number of suckers in.

[Ms Monny]

There is the old 'joke' about the photographer who goes to a persons place for dinner and the hostess says "I looove your photography! You must have a great camera!". The photographer says nothing, sits down and after dinner he says "Man, that was a great meal. You must have the most expensive saucepans to cook with!"

I laugh every time I read that.

I don't have anything else to add really, apart from that, because it has all been said in the last 6 pages (somewhere in there I said something too). Oh, and also, Facebook has a big, big part in making us SAHM think that we are the most talented photographers who take the most awesome pics and, hey, lets set up a FB page with our new photography business. Just make sure we make all our friends and friends of friends like the page too!! :p

[WhoDo]

Egads, that's terrible stuff, so many inaccuracies but I bet they haul a fair number of suckers in.
Geez, kiwi, you must be way older than I'd imagined! I haven't seen or heard the word "Egads" since Oil Can Harry tied Sweet Sue to the railroad tracks! :lol:

[Xenedis]

The very opening paragraph had me in fits :umm:

http://www.simplymakemoneyfromhome.com/homephotographybusiness.html

It would be quite hilarious were it not for the fact that the people behind that Web site are apparently serious.

[WhoDo]

It would be quite hilarious were it not for the fact that the people behind that Web site are apparently serious.
Of course they are! Separating fools from their money for fun and profit IS a serious business, you know! :Doh:

[CarlR]

That is disturbing.

[ricktas]

That is disturbing.

Why?

[Beefa69]

So... as an amateur tog... what should I do when I start getting requests for work (not just your mates wedding) ?
I am new
I am inexperienced
I only have 1 camera
I am provided with an offer that will potentially be worth a lot of money.

[JayR]

Has anyone else seen that erm FB page/website along the lines of youarenotaphotographer? (i cant remember exactly what it was)

basically its taking a dig at all these people who buy a DSLR and then suddenly set up as a 'photographer'.
Some awesomely cringe-worthy examples in there.

Still, this kind of stuff happens in all sorts of fields. You'd be surprised how many people think because they can sketch some plan-rooms on a page that they think they can do my job as an architect!
5+ years full time study apparently counts for nothing :rolleyes:

[zollo]

So... as an amateur tog... what should I do when I start getting requests for work (not just your mates wedding) ?
I am new
I am inexperienced
I only have 1 camera
I am provided with an offer that will potentially be worth a lot of money.

I do wonder what kind of employer takes on "I am inexperienced" with " worth a lot of money"

[Beefa69]

I do wonder what kind of employer takes on "I am inexperienced" with " worth a lot of money"

You are assuming its an employer, wrong assumption.
Its a company that likes the pics they have seen and asked me to supply a lot more.
While I have no aspirations to be a pro-tog (especially with all the negativity here about the dying industry) I am faced with a situation where I can either start a company, ie register a business, get a website, print some cards and get paid for providing pics. Or I can take the overall advice given here and assume I cannot be someone who gets paid for photography because of said reasons above.

I find it interesting that everywhere I go, I see photos. I see companies buying photos. That tells me that people are still selling, and people are still buying photos.
The differentiator is your ability to successfully market yourself.
An average photographer who is a good marketer will outsell a great photographer who has no idea how to market themselves.
As an outsider to this industry I can also see quite a few areas that are almost untapped opportunity yet no one willing to look outside the square and move away from the traditional industry and market.

[JayR]

what about people trying to begin some photography work in a field they have been working in for a long time?

Im a fully qualified and registered architect but feeling a little over the nature of the architectural industry and want to shift up my photographic work to be able to do more in the way of architectural photography.
Given Im a visual person and architecturally trained and know there is still some market for good quality architectural photographs, it seems reasonable for me to push this envelope somewhat.
And making use of existing contacts cant hurt, right?

[Beefa69]

^ Bingo

[zollo]

You are assuming its an employer, wrong assumption.
Its a company that likes the pics they have seen and asked me to supply a lot more.
While I have no aspirations to be a pro-tog (especially with all the negativity here about the dying industry) I am faced with a situation where I can either start a company, ie register a business, get a website, print some cards and get paid for providing pics. Or I can take the overall advice given here and assume I cannot be someone who gets paid for photography because of said reasons above.

I find it interesting that everywhere I go, I see photos. I see companies buying photos. That tells me that people are still selling, and people are still buying photos.
The differentiator is your ability to successfully market yourself.
An average photographer who is a good marketer will outsell a great photographer who has no idea how to market themselves.
As an outsider to this industry I can also see quite a few areas that are almost untapped opportunity yet no one willing to look outside the square and move away from the traditional industry and market.

You may be assuming that i am assuming. So this company is commissioning you for photographs, ie they are employing your services.


While I have no aspirations to be a pro-tog (especially with all the negativity here about the dying industry) I am faced with a situation where I can either start a company, ie register a business, get a website, print some cards and get paid for providing pics

you've descibed in a nutshell a photographer who runs a business (missing a few important bits). yet you have no aspirations, so your post is not clear to me.

[Beefa69]

Your kidding me right? You want to argue semantics around what a self employed tog is? You list every wedding / portrait client as your employer?
If I am self employed I take it to indicate I am self employed. These people are clients.

However entertain me as to what you "wonder" about a client who is wanting to purchase photography that they find appealing?
You sound very supportive about it all.

[kiwi]

Settle petal.

If someone wants to give you good money for your photos and they've seen what the are getting and you've not misrepresented yourself go for it

But if you think that translates to an easy career that's a myth.

[MiniFighter]

Wow, what a read.

Ill agree with the comments about how you can get professional results by buying this camera, how today's technology can get almost anyone a great looking pic time and time again and lastly how an entry level kit is now more affordable and within reach for your avg person Being the foremost reasons for the misconception.

I also get the impression a few people feel threatened by new members wanting to go pro over night.

Rather than wonder how and why, ask more what can we do and how do i point you in the right direction. Doing this will ensure the hobby (to most) we all love will continue to grow and thrive :)

[Beefa69]

Settle petal.

If someone wants to give you good money for your photos and they've seen what the are getting and you've not misrepresented yourself go for it

But if you think that translates to an easy career that's a myth.

:) I couldnt agree more. I don't think the easy career exists anywhere these days regardless of industry.

[cbourke]

I also get the impression a few people feel threatened by new members wanting to go pro over night.


I wouldn't say threatened, I would say annoyed. Why spend 2-3 years playing second fiddle to another photographer (lets say in the portrait/wedding arena) learning all about exposure, posing, lighting etc etc when you can buy a good camera and claim to know what you are doing because you shoot over the shoulder of someone? Fauxtogs are making it so hard for full time professional photographers as they generally supply crap and it reflects on the photography community, those who do it for a living not becuase they can spend loads of money on the best equipment.

Thread was a great read :D

[kiwi]

Id say is not even annoyed, it's more frustrated. Frustrated becuase every month there are another 200 photographers who join sites like this or facebook and immediately "turn pro" with all the gear and no idea, or no gear and no idea.....but then start delivering drivel (as I would if you suddenly asked me to start doing drawings for sale) thereby driving prices and expectations down making it harder for everyone else. Massive generalisation, but, there you go.

[cbourke]

Id say is not even annoyed, it's more frustrated. Frustrated becuase every month there are another 200 photographers who join sites like this or facebook and immediately "turn pro" with all the gear and no idea, or no gear and no idea.....but then start delivering drivel (as I would if you suddenly asked me to start doing drawings for sale) thereby driving prices and expectations down making it harder for everyone else. Massive generalisation, but, there you go.

Frustrated is a much better term. In fact maybe frustrating annoyance could work well?

[MiniFighter]

Frustrated is a much better term. In fact maybe frustrating annoyance could work well?

Yep, for sure. I can see how one would feel. But what can you do? Its a free Country, and the best country thats for sure. So good that dreams can be followed no matter how big or small and regardless of what others think.

To me the true professionals will offer advice and support to anyone looking for it no matter how dumb the questions or posts are. Thats what makes them professional.

I agree with the above, this is indeed a great thread with some excellent points. It also really singles out the passionate members. A must read for all noob's i think :)

Wayne.

[zollo]

I also get the impression a few people feel threatened by new members wanting to go pro over night.


Personally, more bemused than anything. why someone thinks photography at a professional level requires no experience is beyond me. on top of that the business side of things, and how the two interrelate, all learnt overnight... maybe its in the camera manual...

[cbourke]

To me the true professionals will offer advice and support to anyone looking for it no matter how dumb the questions or posts are. Thats what makes them professional.


Really? Go knock on say Yervants door and ask some "dumb" questions and see what responses you get, while you are at it head down the road and visit Rocco and Nick and ask some more dumb questions, they will hold their hand out and say here is our course date, how about you attend?

I find the only ones good with offering FREE advice are those inbetween starting out and going professional (I am deeming professional as one who is a full member of the AIPP). Many professionals simply do not have the time to discuss this with fauxtogs. I know my mentor, a photographer who has been in the game for 27 years didn't just roll over and offer me advice/work, I had to beg and prove myself and even then I am not sure he has really given me any advice it has all been learnt through watching what he does lol.

[MiniFighter]

Really? Go knock on say Yervants door and ask some "dumb" questions and see what responses you get, while you are at it head down the road and visit Rocco and Nick and ask some more dumb questions, they will hold their hand out and say here is our course date, how about you attend?

I find the only ones good with offering FREE advice are those inbetween starting out and going professional (I am deeming professional as one who is a full member of the AIPP). Many professionals simply do not have the time to discuss this with fauxtogs. I know my mentor, a photographer who has been in the game for 27 years didn't just roll over and offer me advice/work, I had to beg and prove myself and even then I am not sure he has really given me any advice it has all been learnt through watching what he does lol.

Firstly, im not here to start any further argument, just stating as i see it from my point of view as a new member and begginer in the world of photography. When i was refering to "professionals" i was meaning here online where there is an abundance of members with more than enough knowledge to share. Thats what were here for right? to share our knowledge, offer support and feedback in the efforts the member asking the questions will infact learn something, then later on be able to pass on the same information to another new member etc etc..Isnt that how forums work?
I read a few pages back about someone feeling intimidated to post, im now starting to feel the same, worried ill be laughed at and labelled a "fauxtog" as you like to call it.

[ricktas]

Really? Go knock on say Yervants door and ask some "dumb" questions and see what responses you get, while you are at it head down the road and visit Rocco and Nick and ask some more dumb questions, they will hold their hand out and say here is our course date, how about you attend?

I find the only ones good with offering FREE advice are those inbetween starting out and going professional (I am deeming professional as one who is a full member of the AIPP). Many professionals simply do not have the time to discuss this with fauxtogs. I know my mentor, a photographer who has been in the game for 27 years didn't just roll over and offer me advice/work, I had to beg and prove myself and even then I am not sure he has really given me any advice it has all been learnt through watching what he does lol.

I know several professionals, who if not busy on a shoot are happy to spend some time and discuss photography in all its aspects, from taking shots, processing to the business side of things. I think it depends what sort of person the professional is. I know people in a whole range of careers who charge you in 5 minute blocks for their time, and I know others in the same career, who are happy to give away knowledge and advice freely. They are the people I seek out. It also depends on how you approach them, there is a lot to be said for learning effective communication, cause it can lead you two ways "here is my course date" or "ok, this is how you do that".

Two scenario's:

1. I get on well with my lawyer, I can call her and ask a question and she says " we will catch up on the account later". Often we will meet for a coffee, and I have never been sent an account for information she gives me at our coffee chats or phone calls. Sometimes I get a bill if I email her specific questions, or go to her office, sometimes I don't. if she wants some photos of her family etc, I generally do them for free. It is about relationship building, between people.

2. I got invited to a dinner a while ago, from a professional inside my own vocation. One of the other professionals that came, his wife was a lawyer. During the meal, someone asked her a couple of legal questions pertinent to the general conversation we were having. A week later they got a bill in the mail for 'legal advice'.

Some people just want to charge for their services at every turn, others are willing and able to freely give their knowledge and skills. So if I approached someone with a question, outside of their work place, or working environment, as part of a chance meeting etc, and they told me 'here are my course dates', I would go find someone else. These people do not have one piece of information that they have not learned, thus others have this same information. They don't 'own' the rights to the answer to 'what shutter speed would be suitable"... They have no exclusive access to some information that, they alone, know.

There are pure business people who see their role as making money at every available opportunity, and there are people, who happen to be in business. I know which ones I prefer to interact with.

[alextdel]

... what I wanted to know is why their is a perception that it is an 'easy' career choice, when reality is so different to that? ...
Its partly a tribute to the fabulous photographs that pro photographers take and share that it seems so easy. Obviously even the best photo can't portray the years of practice and the days of thinking, planning, set up, exposure, selection and processing that you pro guys put into your work. I particularly found inspiration in ricktas ANZAC day shots (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?83032-Images-of-ANZAC&highlight=anzac) these capture more than just a person on a day, more like an emotion. However, my struggles with playing guitar for years has taught me that it is never as simple as it seems.

[ricktas]

Firstly, im not here to start any further argument, just stating as i see it from my point of view as a new member and begginer in the world of photography. When i was refering to "professionals" i was meaning here online where there is an abundance of members with more than enough knowledge to share. Thats what were here for right? to share our knowledge, offer support and feedback in the efforts the member asking the questions will infact learn something, then later on be able to pass on the same information to another new member etc etc..Isnt that how forums work?
I read a few pages back about someone feeling intimidated to post, im now starting to feel the same, worried ill be laughed at and labelled a "fauxtog" as you like to call it.

Don't be intimidated. We don't allow personal attacks on AP and if someone called you a fauxtog directly, that would result in action from the mods or myself. We want AP to be a safe environment for members of all levels to interact and discuss photography. You as a beginner are just as entitled to post, and state your opinions, as someone with 25 years experience as a pro. AP is for everyone. If you ever get attacked in a thread, report it, we will investigate and act.

[Beefa69]

Sounds like we need the wambulance in here :) STAT !

On may way into work this morning I see just about every paper has a very timely article on Lincoln Harrison and his long exposure star trails. Harrison bought his first camera last year to take pics of clothes on ebay... you guys must be really frustrated by that. Even rates a full article on the Dailymail in the UK. Amateur hack !! how dare he :)

I can see the amusement from a long time skilled photographer when a noob shows up, buys himself an SLR and claims he is going pro. I feel a little pity when a amateur with enthusiasm wants to take pics and sell their work and finds a thread like this that, to me, reeks of photo-snobbery elitism.

Find me an industry today that is not under threat from new comers to the market and from other players who are willing to charge less. House painting is a great example with cheap semi skilled labour willing to cut the bum out of traditional prices. People will pay what they want to pay, and the ones who suffer are those people who have devoted their life to this chosen profession. The skilled artisan will still have a market but it is very much different from where it used to be. The successful artisan will recognise this and change as needed.

My own profession and industry has been suffering the same "pro-tog" "faux-tog" threat for a lot longer than has been happening here. Having a forum to bleat about it may be nice... like a warm blanky and a cuddle from your mum when you are a little upset, but reality is it is not going to change anything.
I read the thread about how much people make from photography, looks pretty grim for you lot.
If people are still buying photos, why arent you selling them? Whats wrong with your business model?

Why would anyone in their right mind want to take up photography as a profession ??

Alexdtel... I used to teach guitar for a few years and I will tell you some people pick up a guitar and are born naturals. Within 6 months they are out gigging making money and writing music. Then there are some who practice for years until they reach the same level and feel confident that they are now experienced enough to claim themselves a musician. Those guys look at the new guy that has been playing for 6 months and shake their head at some newcomer thinking they can be as good as the old hand.... sounds familiar huh.

Incidentally there are some, even after 12 months of lessons, just don't have it. ;)

[cbourke]

Firstly, im not here to start any further argument, just stating as i see it from my point of view as a new member and begginer in the world of photography. When i was refering to "professionals" i was meaning here online where there is an abundance of members with more than enough knowledge to share. Thats what were here for right? to share our knowledge, offer support and feedback in the efforts the member asking the questions will infact learn something, then later on be able to pass on the same information to another new member etc etc..Isnt that how forums work?
I read a few pages back about someone feeling intimidated to post, im now starting to feel the same, worried ill be laughed at and labelled a "fauxtog" as you like to call it.

Sorry if you got the impression I was labelling you a "fauxtog" this term I reserve as, umm, let's say, a mother who buys a camera, starts a facebook page, does a few really bad photos of her children thenthinks she can sell her services because she and her friends think her photos are brilliant. I was not labelling anyone in this thread that term and I do apologise if that is how it seems.

For the record, I am happy to help out with anyone who has a question at a wedding etc when I am not busy. If someone emails with a question, I will do what I can to answer within reason (although it gets tiring with emails asking what settings where used for a shot etc, seriously does anyone use the same settings for every shot for landscapes?)

So yeah, apologies if it seemed I was labelling you, I was not. :)

[cbourke]

On may way into work this morning I see just about every paper has a very timely article on Lincoln Harrison and his long exposure star trails. Harrison bought his first camera last year to take pics of clothes on ebay... you guys must be really frustrated by that. Even rates a full article on the Dailymail in the UK. Amateur hack !! how dare he :)


No frustration at all, the guys images are wonderful and all the best to him (I wish I had his patience for star trails, I try and make time to do them, but I end up having a few beers at the pub instead :p). My issue is with what is posted above, people who get a acamera take a few baby snapshots then sell their services in an unmoderated industry.

[MiniFighter]

All good, i think i jumped the gun a little.

Im just here to learn what i can and enjoy my re kindled spark for photography. I may ask dumb questions fromk time to time but i would hope you guys, as profesionals will point me in the right direction.

To get this back on topic, Rick, as a noob myself.. to me the main reasons photography is portrayed as an easy profession is:

* Marketing, as mentioned previously you can now purchase a DSLR that has is claimed to produce "Professioanl results"
* Cost, The avg DSLR now coming in what you guys call "kits" at a cost that avg guys (like me) can afford.
* Entry level DSLR's are now so user friendly, you dont need a degree to operate one (just a degree to operate one well lol)
* Editing software is alot cheaper than it used to be.

Thats just my opinion on the subject :)


Wayne

[Kym]

On the subject of regulated industries, there are some that require some some of qualification.
Eg:

Medical/Health (but we still have //lel services like homoeopathy?)
Law
Manufacturing and mining (eg. fork lift drivers, heavy machinery operators etc)
Building industry
Transport

But other industries (eg. IT, software etc.) require no qualification at all.
Yet, I've worked in IT / Software development since the 70's and am a professional by any measure (i.e. experience, career results, peer recognition etc).
However, there are still some shonky IT shops (much less than the '90's).
Still, anyone can setup a PC sales/repair/service shop, even do shonky web site developments.

Photography is no different.

[I @ M]

I blame facebook for these ills.
On that site one only has to look around those who offering themselves as photographers under the "professional services" heading and enjoying all the accolades from their friends whilst setting out to fly solo for the first time at a wedding and in the same breath asking all and sundry about how they should structure their pricing. :Doh:

[kiwi]

Here's a good comparison of those who might and those that do

http://www.ispwp.com/uncle-bob-vs-a-professional-wedding-photographer.html

[Beefa69]

Here's a good comparison of those who might and those that do

http://www.ispwp.com/uncle-bob-vs-a-professional-wedding-photographer.html

Great info Kiwi !! I am shooting a wedding for a friend this weekend and have no idea what I am doing ... this gives me at least a start on where I should focus my attentions ! Of course I am joking.. sheesh!

[cbourke]

Here's a good comparison of those who might and those that do

http://www.ispwp.com/uncle-bob-vs-a-professional-wedding-photographer.html

LOL, i love the Uncle bob series!

[Charmed]

Rick answered his own question over in the Photos in the media that shouldn't have made the "cut". (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?90760-Photos-in-the-media-that-shouldn-t-have-made-the-quot-cut-quot-.)

[Longshots]

Really? Go knock on say Yervants door and ask some "dumb" questions and see what responses you get, while you are at it head down the road and visit Rocco and Nick and ask some more dumb questions, they will hold their hand out and say here is our course date, how about you attend?

I find the only ones good with offering FREE advice are those inbetween starting out and going professional (I am deeming professional as one who is a full member of the AIPP). Many professionals simply do not have the time to discuss this with fauxtogs. I know my mentor, a photographer who has been in the game for 27 years didn't just roll over and offer me advice/work, I had to beg and prove myself and even then I am not sure he has really given me any advice it has all been learnt through watching what he does lol.

Scuse me for being extremely irrated with this comment. I post and regularly offer advice after 38 years of selling my work. Its this type of ignorance that seriously puts me off offering advice - which I do for free. And I'm a member of AIPP. If you want to insult other AP members you've done a good job. Try a bit of mutual respect, and less of the cynicism, because I have no wish to contribute with that attitude !

[jasevk]

Scuse me for being extremely irrated with this comment. I post an regularly offer advice after 38 years of selling my work. Its this type of ignorance that seriously puts me off offering advice - which I do for free. And I'm a member of AIPP. If you want to insult other AP members you've done a good job. Try a bit of mutual respect, and less of the cynicism, because I have no wish to contribute with that attitude !

Well said William... As one of the few professionals who has selflessly given me advice on a few occasions, whether it being on the phone for an hour, or on the porch over a beer or 3, I can understand how irritated you must be at that comment :)

[kiwi]

yikes, i missed that post, i quite agree Jason.

[cbourke]

Scuse me for being extremely irrated with this comment. I post and regularly offer advice after 38 years of selling my work. Its this type of ignorance that seriously puts me off offering advice - which I do for free. And I'm a member of AIPP. If you want to insult other AP members you've done a good job. Try a bit of mutual respect, and less of the cynicism, because I have no wish to contribute with that attitude !

Wow touchy. Please tell me where the insult was exactly? I now understand why so many steer clear of this place.

[WhoDo]

Wow touchy. Please tell me where the insult was exactly? I now understand why so many steer clear of this place.

Um ... it might have been this statement:
I find the only ones good with offering FREE advice are those inbetween starting out and going professional (I am deeming professional as one who is a full member of the AIPP). Many professionals simply do not have the time to discuss this with fauxtogs.
Mind you, I'm only guessing. :rolleyes: The name William Long (aka Longshots) would be very well known to any member of the AIPP. My experience has been "the bigger they are the nicer they are" when it comes to helping others with free advice, and Longshots is one of the "biggest" in professional terms. The only ones who jealously guard the limited knowledge they possess are those afraid of how truly small that puddle of knowledge really is! But that's just my amateur opinion. :Doh:

[jasevk]

Wow touchy. Please tell me where the insult was exactly? I now understand why so many steer clear of this place.

The suggestion that pros are only interested in passing on advice when cash is involved may have done it mate. it may surprise you to know that many many industry giants are completely the opposite from what you described.

And by the way if you feel that way about AP, nobody is forcing you to be here, but I'd encourage you to accept that you may be wrong this time... and continue to get involved

[ricktas]

Wow touchy. Please tell me where the insult was exactly? I now understand why so many steer clear of this place.

Well you can join em.. I have closed your account!

[Longshots]

touchy ? Mr Bourke you need to reread your comments. Clearly I'm not alone in being offended by your ill informed generalisations.

Assuming that pros only offer advice on receipt of cash is a comment I find insulting. As clearly others do as well.

My free advice is that you'd be wise to stay clear of many places with that type of attitude. Having spent the past 5 nights in Perth at no cost other then being hosted by a fellow photographer, and my meagre expenses covered, giving advice for free to students, emerging and professional photographers; and its important to note that I'm not alone in supporting my industry colleagues; that Im happy in contributing to the industry. So what are you doing for the common good Mr Bourke ?

[triptych]

Guess that makes me a "fauxtog" then...hahaha!

[Longshots]

Guess that makes me a "fauxtog" then...hahaha!

Nothing wrong with that.

For what its worth - we all started somewhere. I visit here and contribute, which means passing on advice I was freely given by other pros (if you ask with some respect, many people are only too happy to help - if you insult them they will on the other hand suggest you go elsewhere).

I began as a "wannabe", started as with a different career. Didnt take me long to take a professional approach - because of help from full times GENEROUS professionals - , and ultimately I made the transition (with a great deal of work) to existing as a full time professional. And FWIW I've been selling my work for over 38 years, and relying on my photography as a full time career for just over 20 years. I couldnt have done that without the free advice I gained from fellow photographers. I'm happy to pass that information on and support forums such as this.

[triptych]

Nothing wrong with that.

For what its worth - we all started somewhere. I visit here and contribute, which means passing on advice I was freely given by other pros (if you ask with some respect, many people are only too happy to help - if you insult them they will on the other hand suggest you go elsewhere).

I began as a wannabe, started as with a different career. Didnt take me long to take a professional approach, and ultimately I made the transition (with a great deal of work) to existing as a full time professional. And FWIW I've been selling my work for over 38 years, and relying on my photography as a full time career for just over 20 years. I couldnt have done that without the free advice I gained from fellow photographers. I'm happy to pass that information on and support forums such as this.

I know I wont get anywhere without some thick skin! So while im not entirely comfortable yet, I try not to let labels get to me. I know im improving and learning more all the time, this forum has been invaluable, and more so the meet ups where people with alot more experience have helped me.

So yes im a mum, I have a camera, I have a facebook page...and at the same time I also admittedly get frustrated. For example, someone I know literally started her photography business on the same day as she bought her first DSLR, so I guess its these people that make a name for the rest of us who are actually trying to better themselves and improve. I dont expect to be anything overnight, and in fact I dont plan to take my photography to any sort of serious level for at least 3 years, at the moment im happy doing the odd shoot, enjoying what I do.

Sticks and stones eh!

[Longshots]

Tryptich I'd be happy to offer you some one on one advice - like I said we all started somewhere. Getting yourself organised for when you get more work, is the key to finanical success.

Call me - go and look at my website for contact details. Happy to offer some advice - for free :)

[Allie]

This may be off-topic but after reading some of the comments here I am compelled to write a reply that is not meant to sound obsequious but is meant honestly. As a newbie with no aspirations with regard to photography other than trying not making a fool of myself and in the process learning to appreciate what makes a "good" photographic image, I'd like to offer thanks for this forum and to those that contribute so generously with their time and high calibre advice in such a kind and patient manner. It is truly appreciated and I know I am not alone in thinking this way.

[Kym]

@Allie - AP tries hard to help beginners. The New To Photography book in the library is a great free resource.
In fact the whole CC part of AP is about helping people learn and improve.

We also want people to succeed in a photographic business, but we want very much that people have a realistic assessment of what is involved.
I.e. this guide http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?73305-Becoming-a-Professional-Photographer

[triptych]

Tryptich I'd be happy to offer you some one on one advice - like I said we all started somewhere. Getting yourself organised for when you get more work, is the key to finanical success.

Call me - go and look at my website for contact details. Happy to offer some advice - for free :)

What a great offer! Thank you, I will call you later next week when I have time to sit down and concentrate hehe...

[Finlaw]

I'm a part time stay at home mum who would love to be a professional photographer. In my case the camera is my first baby and was here way before my 2 young kids. However I am under no illusion about how hard and time consuming it is and have a long term plan. I am my own worst critic and never like my own work but I beleive there is a market out there for me. Why? I tested the waters and it escalated way too fast & big for me. I had to put the breaks on, pull right back. For now I am doing a maximum of 1 or 2 shoots a month and concentrating on my skills and business knowledge. Am I one of those mums that post and disapear? probably but I'm still lurking and learning, I just don't have the time to be very active and sometimes don't even get to read for a month or more at a time.

My family is young and for now I can't commit to being professional and running a business but I am working towards it.

Oh and the stay at home mum comment is a bit sexist, I know numerous Dad's with the same aspiration but then (and this is a generalisation and from my experience only) Men tend to be taken more seriously accross the board no matter what their profession or dreams. On the other hand I love the Aussie spirit of giving someone a fair go and I hope I pass it on to others.

[Pine]

Professional is really misleading as it gives the impression that one is a qualified Photographer with a long degree such as a Medical Doctor or Engineer which is simply not true.

The truth is anyone with a camera can call himself a Professional Photographer which really means nothing.

I have been at a few weddings were my equipment and photos were better than the "Professional Photographer" but that does not necessary make me a good photographer.

Maybe "I am a Photographer making a living out of photography" is more appropriate :rolleyes:

Regards

[ricktas]

I'm a part time stay at home mum who would love to be a professional photographer. In my case the camera is my first baby and was here way before my 2 young kids. However I am under no illusion about how hard and time consuming it is and have a long term plan. I am my own worst critic and never like my own work but I beleive there is a market out there for me. Why? I tested the waters and it escalated way too fast & big for me. I had to put the breaks on, pull right back. For now I am doing a maximum of 1 or 2 shoots a month and concentrating on my skills and business knowledge. Am I one of those mums that post and disapear? probably but I'm still lurking and learning, I just don't have the time to be very active and sometimes don't even get to read for a month or more at a time.

My family is young and for now I can't commit to being professional and running a business but I am working towards it.

Oh and the stay at home mum comment is a bit sexist, I know numerous Dad's with the same aspiration but then (and this is a generalisation and from my experience only) Men tend to be taken more seriously accross the board no matter what their profession or dreams. On the other hand I love the Aussie spirit of giving someone a fair go and I hope I pass it on to others.

Ah yes, but then from what you have said, this thread isn't about your approach. You are very well aware of the difficulties of running a photography business. But it would be interesting to hear if you thought it would be EASY when you first decided to 'test the waters'. Did you think, 'hey I can make money from this, easily"? What made you think that way? This is the question that this thread is about. It is asking WHY people think photography is an easy career choice before they become aware of the reality. What causes this false perception?

The general public know that it takes years of training to become a Doctor, or a teacher. Even a flight attendant, most are aware there is an intensive course before one takes to the skies, but for some reason, photography doesn't have that, why is it perceived the way it is, as an easy choice, by many?

[Duane Pipe]

My cousins step daughter is getting married today and the tog is a friend of the bride ( she is also part of the bridal party) who has been doing a photography course for the last 12 months or so.
Removed at request of poster due to personal nature of comments

PPS Stay at home mums

[Longshots]

My cousins step daughter is getting married today and the tog is a friend of the bride ( she is also part of the bridal party) who has been doing a photography course for the last 12 months or so.
Removed at request of poster due to personal nature of comments

PPS Stay at home mums

OK yeah, I understand. But first of all its not those who own a camera and make some dosh out of it (sometimes, without any declaration, and therefore with no PL insurance and standard business cover), its the cheap clients who are just as much to blame.

Doint g a photo course for the last 12 months doesnt make anyone professional IMHO.

So what does ?

Its one of those long standing, and always produces a lengthy debate.

IMHO Professional means professional approach - its that simple.

Sure there are plenty of crap photographers out there, but they generally fall into the same basis of you get what you pay for.

And yes you're right, you cant be in the bridal party and do a professional job - thats absurd. I dont have a problem either with people charging a professional fee for a professional coverage of a wedding. Again the client is the decision maker here. Why blame those who are simply not up to the job ?

A bit like buying a Lada - (russian car that my ex wife once bought that broke down on the day it was delivered and was a piece of crap, and utter joke for its brief existence with her), and then comparing it with a BMW - hey both had four wheels, four doors, and steering wheel. But one was a great deal cheaper. And you can go even cheaper again if you buy a hand built scrap renovation/reclaimed car, that too will be cheaper. All 3 may get you to the end of the road, but which one will feel professional ?

Basically, I'm sorry to say, but the bride will get what she paid for. Good luck in getting some good shots - I have no doubt that you will.

But, this is important and please dont take this the wrong way, being a professional is all about doing this type of thing on a regular basis, relying on it for your income tends to give people the motivation to doing it well, and then its also not just about taking and producing a few good shots, but producing a professional package.

I trust the bride has employed a professional dressmaker, has employed a professional venue, a professional limousine/car service, and employed a professional celebrant.

I could claim to do all of those things on a professional basis:
I own a sewing machine and I can sew
I have a house with a good sized yard and deck
I own a car and can drive
I have a rough idea of what needs to be said at a wedding (been wed a few times and shot many)
and while I didnt think about it back then
I own a guitar (FWIW I dont call myself a musician)

There is a considerable difference in the industry these days, from those who are deliberately misleading potential purchasers as to their photographic ability; those who just enjoy taking pictures; and those who are either earning their living from full time photography, or aspiring to that eventual, or even part time, goal.

The people who confuse, or deliberately choose to select and pay a photographer, anything from a pittance/carton of beer, to a proper market level of sustainable professional photography; and these are the people that should be held accountable; are the CLIENTS.

This example Duane is one I hear on so many occassions that its sad. I can pretty much guess that the bride will be hugely dissapointed in the overall photographic cover. Sure you might be, and I hope you do, capture a few good shots.

But when the cakes gone, the wedding dress no longer fits, and the memories fade, what is there to look back on ? One of the very few things that are ever shown in decades to come will be the wedding pictures. Seems such a shame that stupidity often dictates that particular purchase decision. So my advice to your cousin's step daughter is to employ a real professional and hopefully one who has some real credibility, real experience, real photographic examples.

[zollo]

Professional is really misleading as it gives the impression that one is a qualified Photographer with a long degree such as a Medical Doctor or Engineer which is simply not true.

The truth is anyone with a camera can call himself a Professional Photographer which really means nothing.

I have been at a few weddings were my equipment and photos were better than the "Professional Photographer" but that does not necessary make me a good photographer.

Maybe "I am a Photographer making a living out of photography" is more appropriate :rolleyes:

Regards

why do photographers get hung up on the term "professional photography"
I use the term to present my business to the public, that is all. Other photographers can call me photographer, tog, amateur, warrior, whatever, it doesn't bother me if it makes you feel better.
I have a Diploma in Photoimaging, took two years to complete, so I do have some formal "qualifications" but other photographers tend to get qualifications in a non regulated industry confused with qualifications within a regulated industry, which photography is not. Guess what, it doesn't matter if it's regulated or not, you can still be a professional in your field of work. Get over it people.
an assistant of mine is studying Bachelor of Arts (photography) and when she is finished, I will have NO hesitation in calling her a professional. She is good. And I will be honoured that she got her start with my little co. Others have had 20-30 years experience selling their work and truly deserve to be called Professionals too. I reckon the public have no problem with it, only other "photographers"

[kiwi]

Tall poppy syndrome ?

[Longshots]

no not at all - sorry Zollo, but if you're referring to what I said and my frustration with those out there who are deliberately misleading, and/or are simply delusional, then I've clearly failed to communicate by way of responding to the original point.

I rarely read your comments and disagree. On this occasion I disagree.

This has no relation to people doing courses, gaining accreditation or even being a self starter.

Of course few should question whether those examples would have any trouble being referred to as a " photographer", or "professional" if they are acting professionally.

Its those who purposely mislead, and in some cases use fraudulent methods to suggest or claim that they are "professional" - and to give one example, those who steal others images to populate their websites, or use stock images that they havent a hope in hell of being able to produce. They're the ones who frustrate me.

For what its worth, like many of my friends who earn a full time living from their photography, I dont use the word "professional" in my description.

All of the 5 ( ! ) earlier pages describe quite clearly the frustration that seems to emanate from those who are trying to help those entering the profession to BE professional, and to ACT professionally.

I've fought against (yes fought in the 1990's) against the move in Qld to licence the profession of photography - and fortunately common sense produced the obvious outcome, which was that it wasnt required and wasnt feasible. So I didnt think anyone had earlier banged a drum about licensing.

I thought this discussion was about those who simply buy a camera, and with weeks produce business cards, websites and I certainly have direct knowledge of one person who within months launched themselves as an educator to other "photographers" (and it should be pointed out that their confidence far outweighed their ability).

So my comment continues, that I couldnt care less if someone describes themselves as professional - I do care if they deliberately mislead potential consumers if they're not following typical business expectations that I and many other "professionals" have to follow by law.

My continuing argument is that the expectation that its odd that people should automatically call themselves a photographer when they buy a camera. Excuse me for repeating my earlier comment that when I buy a guitar I would not then automatically describe myself as a musician.

Tall poppy syndrome has nothing to do with this, thats a comment based on not understanding this particular discussion !

[WhoDo]

why do photographers get hung up on the term "professional photography"
Probably because of a lack of a common understanding of the term. Here is what the Free Online Dictionary says:

pro·fes·sion·al (pr-fsh-nl)
adj.
1.
a. Of, relating to, engaged in, or suitable for a profession: lawyers, doctors, and other professional people.
b. Conforming to the standards of a profession: professional behavior.
2. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
3. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.
4. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.
n.
1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.
Among the adjectival uses (descriptive use of the term) some here are applying definition adj 1b, some definition adj 2/3 and others definition adj 4. Frankly I prefer to use definition adj 4 when referring to the output of respected photographers (definition n 3), and definition adj 2/3 when referring to those who have simply "hung up a shingle" and invested financially in following the profession (definition n. 2). Definitions adj 1a and n 1 are of little relevance in this discussion of the OP's original question since they relate principally to academic qualifications and standards.

So before anyone starts arguing the toss about who or what is or isn't "professional", I suggest you start with a common understanding of what you mean when you use the term.

In referring to the OP's post, SAHM's (and others) may fit definitions n 1 and n 2 without coming within a bull's roar of definition n 3! Certainly that former class of "professional" doesn't appear to be bound in any way by the requirements of definition adj 1b (i.e. conforming to professional standards), and that is the horns of the dilemma for those who truly love, invest personally in and value their profession well beyond its capacity to earn them an income. That very passion and personal investment prevents "getting over it (sic)" when those whose only commitment is financial give the industry a black eye.

Some sections of the market now see photographers in general, particularly those doing weddings and portraiture, as little better than used car salesmen and that is very distressing to those who have put in so much time and effort to elevate the industry's standards toward expert performance (adj 4) and away from simply earning an income (adj 3).

I hope I have made my point clear, despite the many references.

[zollo]

Longshots I agree with pretty much everything you posted above, but I think I was talking about a slightly off topic subject here, my post was in direct answer to the quote within it and you basically said the same thing with


Of course few should question whether those examples would have any trouble being referred to as a " photographer", or "professional" if they are acting professionally

Whodo as far as i am concerned EXCLUDE adj. 1a. and then roll the rest into a big ball and that is my definition of a "professional photographer". I dont take apart the word to have 20 possible meanings, I'll leave that to those professional lawyers. :D

[WhoDo]

Whodo as far as i am concerned EXCLUDE adj. 1a. and then roll the rest into a big ball and that is my definition of a "professional photographer". I dont take apart the word to have 20 possible meanings, I'll leave that to those professional lawyers. :D
I agree that adj 1a is irrelevant to this discussion, and said so. As for rolling the rest together, that might be nice if everyone agreed but this whole thread is evidence that they don't. Many here do NOT include SAHM's and others (weekend warriors, etc) making a few dollars on the side from photography as "professionals", even though may they clearly fit adj. 2/3, as do certain "professional" footballers whose main source of income is actually derived outside of the sport.

While I appreciate your all-inclusive approach when using the term, zollo, for the sake of effective communications with others in the discussion it is impossible to avoid the distinctions. Even the thread title REQUIRES those distinctions in place. :confused013 It might be useful to at least draw a distinction between those who are, by your definition, semi-professional vs. full-time professional.;)

[Longshots]

Sorry I got lost a bit with the definitions.

This started because there is a perception that this (photography - as an income producing lifestyle) is an easy option. That was how, and is how I'm answering the topic on the word professional.

I started as a self taught, part timer. Some could have used the term weekend warrior - which I dont have a problem with BTW - except I was doing it at the same time as my first career. I then eventually made the transition to full time photographer after 17 years of part time selling my work, and running it as a business. I only started to understand what that meant once I sought and gained the advice from other full time photographers.

Most of those who enter the business of photography - and this is the section for that discussion - do so (in my experience of giving advice on how they should extract themselves out of some trouble or problem) with almost no real research into what is involved in producing a photographic service on a commercial basis. The standard level of research is a quick browse of other photographers offering a similar package/genre, and then offering the same type of thing at 50% of the price. In the end it becomes a game of the blind leading the blind and an amazing point where photographers are paying their clients to shoot in an effort to gain work. Eventually they leave the business having accomplished an increase in their debt level and little else. But seamlessly they are replaced by an ever increasing number of eager shooters, who are convinced by sloppy marketing by desperate product manufacturers that sell the concept of "buy our product and you too can be a professional".

The level of bulls--t from those bluffing their way through the business, when they in reality produce very little, and convincing others that they have a successful operation is the icing on the cake when it comes to encouraging delusionalism in the extreme.

Yes it can be done. Yes it takes some effort. Its not rocket science. Just make sure you know what you're getting into. And if you want to seek advice, make sure that you're listening to people who have real experience in the field. Go and speak to them one on one.

[Pine]

why do photographers get hung up on the term "professional photography"
I use the term to present my business to the public, that is all. Other photographers can call me photographer, tog, amateur, warrior, whatever, it doesn't bother me if it makes you feel better.
I have a Diploma in Photoimaging, took two years to complete, so I do have some formal "qualifications" but other photographers tend to get qualifications in a non regulated industry confused with qualifications within a regulated industry, which photography is not. Guess what, it doesn't matter if it's regulated or not, you can still be a professional in your field of work. Get over it people.
an assistant of mine is studying Bachelor of Arts (photography) and when she is finished, I will have NO hesitation in calling her a professional. She is good. And I will be honoured that she got her start with my little co. Others have had 20-30 years experience selling their work and truly deserve to be called Professionals too. I reckon the public have no problem with it, only other "photographers"

There is a lot of snob value on who can be considered a professional or not but it really means nothing.

Some people are simply great on what they do irrespective of qualifications and the same applies to photography.

I am regularly humbled by the brilliancy of some photographers on this forum and stand amazed :th3:

Now what ever you term these select few, professional or not, ordinary people will never match their ability.

The key question is "Do you make sufficient money out of your profession or not" and if you do you are truly a professional :rolleyes:

Regards

[pgbphotographytas]

I think it is a case of people taking a few photos, family and friends seeing them and then these people thinking they can do it and make money. I guess they think this because anybody can go and buy a dSLR and look like they know what they are doing. Due to the low start up costs and ease of access they jump at it without understanding what it really involves.

Paul

[dt86vyss]

A course does not qualify/equip one with experience... This can only come with time. Taking great photos consistently takes practice, lots of practice takes lots of time... That is all.

[jjjnettie]

LOL. It's not just stay at home Mum's who try to run before they can walk. I see similar happening all the time on a different forum I belong to. But instead it's the men. Photographers, some very good ones too, diving in at the deep end, buying all the top shelf astro gear and proclaiming they're going to take these wonderful photos of nebulae and galaxies. 3 months down the track, all that lovely expensive gear is up for sale at half the price they paid for it.
Nothing will dissuade them. I have a camera, I can do this.

I think that you can be a successful photographer, without being a Professional.
But you can't succeed as a Professional, without success behind you, backing you up.
(did that make sense?)

[sonofcoco]

I blame facebook for these ills.
On that site one only has to look around those who offering themselves as photographers under the "professional services" heading and enjoying all the accolades from their friends whilst setting out to fly solo for the first time at a wedding and in the same breath asking all and sundry about how they should structure their pricing. :Doh:

Yeah, I'd agree with this to an extent. Have just seen a mate's wife's new Facebook page advertising herself as a professional photographer and have had a look at a couple of the shoots she's done...to be brutally honest, they're not very good at all. In my opinion most people with a little experience could spend 20-30 minutes snapping off a few shots (with a compact camera) and do quite a bit better. It wasn't that long ago she was putting up her first pics of her kids with her new camera, and now she's a 'professional'. Good luck to her, but I would think the less you had to learn as you go the better your results and your reputation when you set out. I just hope she's not charging too much, and her clients aren't expecting too much.

It was unfortunate in the case of her last shoot that her clients were my best mate and his family...I would've taken a few pics of their family for free as I have known him for 20 years and he was just back from England on holiday. In this woman's defence, she may well have done the same as she knows them too. The fact they're up on her businesses page did suggest to me they paid money for them though. I have noticed on Facebook that you can basically put up an out-of-focus shot of a big toe that is poorly composed and under-exposed and you'll get a bunch of friends telling you how great a shot it is, that you're so 'creative', and asking if you've thought of starting your own business!?

[Xenedis]

The problem with people new to photography (or any hobby, really) is that they don't know how much they don't know.

If only I could be a surgeon purely by owning a scalpel or being creative with carrots in the kitchen...

[Plonk]

When I first started photograpghy I had a great teacher and I really loved it. I was photographing newborns at a hospital. Then I thought to myself that oneday I would love to work for myself and not anyone else. So I started my journey with it. I have to be honest its not easy. So much to do to make sure I do it right.
I found this forum and have found it to have endless knowledge to learn. With great peolple to learn from too and the small stuff that I can offer for other members. Then I got side tracked from everything and didnt have time to be here and most to work. I came back and a member let it rip a little at me for not contributing and not being here. Another member stepped in and I felt better. I had contemplated in staying here as a member because of that. I felt it wasnt fair with what was said. Anyway, I dont think that everyone understands that we all have dreams and sometimes they dont work out or they are that easy to make it happen. I am a mum who children arent so young and also a foster parent in waiting. I do try to come here when I do have time to get advice and see if I can offer some.
No matter what we choose in a career its not always going to go smoothly. So how about giving the beginners a break. They prolly dont have time to be on here every single day.

[Bear Dale]

Why are "professional" photographers always so worried about "amateur" photographers for? The amateur price point customer...wouldn't (or shouldn't) be your customer base anyway.

[ricktas]

When I first started photograpghy I had a great teacher and I really loved it. I was photographing newborns at a hospital. Then I thought to myself that oneday I would love to work for myself and not anyone else. So I started my journey with it. I have to be honest its not easy. So much to do to make sure I do it right.
I found this forum and have found it to have endless knowledge to learn. With great peolple to learn from too and the small stuff that I can offer for other members. Then I got side tracked from everything and didnt have time to be here and most to work. I came back and a member let it rip a little at me for not contributing and not being here. Another member stepped in and I felt better. I had contemplated in staying here as a member because of that. I felt it wasnt fair with what was said. Anyway, I dont think that everyone understands that we all have dreams and sometimes they dont work out or they are that easy to make it happen. I am a mum who children arent so young and also a foster parent in waiting. I do try to come here when I do have time to get advice and see if I can offer some.
No matter what we choose in a career its not always going to go smoothly. So how about giving the beginners a break. They prolly dont have time to be on here every single day.

HUH?? This thread is not about being on AP every single day. Dreams are great, but dreams also need to be bound in facts, when they are turned into a reality. Most things are not what we dream them to be. Remember wanting to be a nurse, police officer or firefighter as a child? The reality is different to how we dream it. But I digress, this thread is s about photography as a business, and the perception that it is an 'easy' business to get into, and why, when the reality is that running a successful photography business is not easy.

[aussie girl]

I havent read all of this thread, only the first few posts and then the latest ones. I dont know if my thoughts have been put up by someone else or not so appologies if I am repeating what has already been said.
I feel that a lot of people have been given a false sense of grandios bravado by the new era of digital cameras. Previously you could get very good SLR film camera, but if you didnt have half a clue how to use one, they were quite difficult to get a good picture from. My dad had a film SLR when I was a kid, and he would spend ages fiddling about with the lens and dials trying to get a good shot. Of course back then, you didnt know if it had turned out ok or not until you had put the film in and paid to have it developed only to find many of them over/under exposed and, if lucky, there might be a really good one.
Now we have digital point and shoots as well as digital SLRs. I bought myself a decent little Olympus C750 when we went overseas for the very first time and I got some great shots (well to me they were great) of our holiday. The digital camera "fixed' stuff that wasnt quite right and made the photos generally turn out pretty good. At least MOST of them actually turned out!!!and I could instantly see if it had and delete it if it hadn't.
I have since bought a DSLR but have no delusions about becoming a professional. I think what makes people think it is easy to be a professional is this. Most people out there have taken a camera and taken a bloody good shot of a landscape, a person, a car etc etc. Then they see these wonderful photos by people like Peter Dobre, Stavros Pippos, Steve Parish, to name just a few. "Hey thats a nice photo" thinks they, "I can take photos like that" and they go and get a mid range DSLR and snap off a few shots. The camera helps make their photos look pretty spectacular compared to their point and shoot camera (auto setting can produce some decent shots here and there) And their friends look at these photos and think they look heaps better than the ones they have taken with their 5 megapixal cameras and start raving about how great their friends shots are. Ego gets kicked into overdrive and next thing, "Hey I might take up photography full time". Any one can point a camera, but it takes inititive and perspective to capture a good photo (I certainly haven't learnt that art yet either by the way)
I have looked at lots of photos on here and thought "Gee why can't I get photos like that", or "hey I wouldn't have thought of framing that old shed window like that" etc
To me, being a good photographer also needs the person to be a bit of an artist as well. Some have to study it to get there, others just have a knack, abit like some need to learn how to play a piano and others can just somehow play by ear (mongrels!!!)
So I think that is why so many think that being a professional photographer is easy. They have this weird idea that all you have to do is print out some cheap business cards, grab a camera and go take photos, why not, thats what the professionals do isnt it???take photos???

A friend at work has a new grandchild. Her daughter in law found someone on the internet somehow who had advertised for taking photographs. The daughter in law thought why not, it will be good to get some really nice photos of bubs. Now this "photographer" was a student, a young girl about 18, (not sure if she is studying photography or not). She came over and did a photo shoot and took quite a few photos of the bub, which my friend showed me. Now one or two were quite nice, but there were some that were over exposed, some were fairly average. She had put up some sort of sheet up as a background but the background was not in the whole photo, so you could see what was behind the sheet. There was one taken of the mum giving the bub a kiss on the head whilst asleep, great photo, BUT the background was a glass sliding door??? and for this "photo shoot' she charged about $100.
The mum and my friend were quite pleased with their photos, but to me, they were not anything different than what I could have achieved. I think even I would have been a bit more careful about what was behind the subject.
So Rick, in answer to your question about why people think it is easy to be a professional photographer??? Well Rick, while there are people out there who are willing to pay people $100 to take fairly average photos of babies, weddings etc, there will always be average "professional" photographers out there who will think that professional photography IS an easy business, because all they did was advertise, take their camera out there and click away, and got paid to do it!!

Sorry for the long post folks:eek:

[zollo]

Why are "professional" photographers always so worried about "amateur" photographers for? The amateur price point customer...wouldn't (or shouldn't) be your customer base anyway.

Fair enough. (by the way from a full time photographers viewpoint, part time photographers do not worry me at all, sorry. you simply could not do what i do, on the weekends, after work etc etc)

But why then, why do part timers and/or hobbyists, get all up in arms about how much (lets call them) 'professionals' charge? all too common to hear - "I could do that for half the price". Really? Could you? so why aren't you doing it then?

there is no such thing (in my world) as amateur price point customers. just ones who are willing to pay for your time and ones who arent. thanks.

[ricktas]

Why are "professional" photographers always so worried about "amateur" photographers for? The amateur price point customer...wouldn't (or shouldn't) be your customer base anyway.

Maybe they are concerned about the quality of the work produced, and the perceived negativity that less-than-good photography might have on the industry as a whole. If anyone is providing a product or service at a price (any price), then there is an expectation of quality results that align to the price paid.

However, again, this thread is not about price charged etc. I was asking why photography is seen as an 'easy to enter' career path (have got camera, can charge people), rather than being learn the art of photography, and then when their photography has reached a good standard, consider a career as a photographer.

[Bear Dale]

Maybe they are concerned about the quality of the work produced, and the perceived negativity that less-than-good photography might have on the industry as a whole. If anyone is providing a product or service at a price (any price), then there is an expectation of quality results that align to the price paid.

However, again, this thread is not about price charged etc. I was asking why photography is seen as an 'easy to enter' career path (have got camera, can charge people), rather than being learn the art of photography, and then when their photography has reached a good standard, consider a career as a photographer.

They might, but if they do, it's a bit of a holier than thou attitude for an unregulated industry.

Much like saying that someone with a ute and a lawnmower who charges to mow lawns, is worried about another guy with a ute and a lawn mower who charges to mow lawns giving the industry a bad name because he perceives that that guy doesn't do the edges as well as he does.


You know there are "Professional" lawn mower guys. I doubt they sit around all day wringing their hands in dire worry about being undercut by a schoolboy with a Victa cutting grass for pocket money on the weekend.

Maybe they should lobby govt to regulate the grass cutting industry?

[zollo]

I am all for gaining formal qualifications in photography and do wish it was a regulated industry. That would not change the undercutting though, thats done on a world scale basis these days ie contracts going overseas instead of local. However, it would help with the perception within some of the general public that pro photography is as easy as buying a camera. If you had to show paperwork or similar before you could call yourself a professional photographer for a contract/job I'm sure perceptions would change.

I hate getting into the whole 'amateur' doing a better job than the 'pro' argument. bores me. yes some amateurs with the same gear can do a better job sometimes/maybe. depends on the job at hand. does it worry me? no. keep up the good work. Make sure that if you charge, you would be happy receiving the work you put out.

I'll tell you what does worry me, when 'amateurs' that charge $$ get it wrong. when they leave clients unhappy, or when I see finished work that is clearly sub-standard (and this is more common than many think). its bad for the whole industry. tends to tarnish all those who charge for photography.

[Bear Dale]

I'll tell you what does worry me, when 'amateurs' that charge $$ get it wrong. when they leave clients unhappy, or when I see finished work that is clearly sub-standard (and this is more common than many think). its bad for the whole industry. tends to tarnish all those who charge for photography.


Hang on, what about "professionals" doing exactly the same thing? What do you think that does to tarnishing the whole industry?

[zollo]

That especially bothers me, however...

if they were professional in a multi faceted sense of the word they would not put out sub standard work or leave customers with any doubt about their professionalism. personally i have seen that those who do, dont last as full timers for very long. If you are relying on it for all of your income, not just doing a weekend shoot here and there, I 've found that you cannot afford to let shoddy work leave your office.

As mentioned, customer service needs to be a cut or two above also. I dont know many part timers who dedicate so much time as i do to meeting with clients, discussing, emailing, scouting, organising, printing etc etc its about the whole package.

[Tommo1965]

I think that you are missing a point here...its that in general..people are not stupid..and most will see that a $100 session is very cheap..and expect a lower standard because of it...its like getting the Kid next door to clean you car for a Tenner...rather than taking it to a pro for a detail...your gonna see some difference between the two..but accept it cause you realise that you got a cheap job ....what pisses people of is paying top dollar and getting a crap job...


at the end of the day consumers are looking to save money, but still get a half reasonable result ..but I do believe the more these "Cheaper" jobs are getting done the harder it is for a pro to turn a coin.. that's not good thing as the Pros will diminish in number and possible push a pro job even higher if you want a top shelf Job done...this applies to all industry's I think..

in this particular industry.. blame that damn screen on the back of your camera..as without that a level of experience and knowledge would still apply rather than seeing you balls up and fixing it on the fly

[Tommo1965]

That especially bothers me, however...

if they were professional in a multi faceted sense of the word they would not put out sub standard work or leave customers with any doubt about their professionalism. personally i have seen that those who do, dont last as full timers for very long. If you are relying on it for all of your income, not just doing a weekend shoot here and there, I 've found that you cannot afford to let shoddy work leave your office.

As mentioned, customer service needs to be a cut or two above also. I dont know many part timers who dedicate so much time as i do to meeting with clients, discussing, emailing, scouting, organising, printing etc etc its about the whole package.

yep Id agree with this....and it really comes home to roost when times toughen up...Im in the building industry..and that has suffered with cowboys doing pro Jobs for as long as "Adams" been about...but when times are tough..they get the flick first..... people like me on the other hand that are "Pros" remain in work even in tougher times like now....so do quality service and you'll be Ok

[zollo]

in my experience the fact is - if you put yourself out there as a pro photographer by charging for your time clients will still expect a pro job/client service, irrespective of the price point ie $10 or a $100...
so you need to charge to cover your costs. how anyone can deliver professional client service at the $10 dollar price point is beyond me - maybe their equipment falls out of the sky :D