Banning live stock export-

[Chilli]

For anyone interested to ban live stock export please sign on this link.

http://www.getup.org.au/campaigns/animals/live-export/ban-live-export?t=dXNlcmlkPTczMDM4NCxlbWFpbGlkPTgw

[Mark L]

Done.

[Michaela]

Done!

[Chilli]

Thankyou :cow:

[ving]

thats 12% of the GDP you are signing away! in monetary terms thats about $155 billion in lost revenue per year.... should we make another tax to make up for that lost money?

[ving]

http://www.nynganobserver.com.au/news/local/news/rural/new-reference-reveals-facts-about-australian-farming/2051990.aspx

[kiwi]

do we care that our iron ore is used to make nuclear bombs ?

i think the issue of what happens to livestock after they are exported and sold is not really our concern.

makes a good story though.

[jim]

do we care that our iron ore is used to make nuclear bombs ?

i think the issue of what happens to livestock after they are exported and sold is not really our concern.

makes a good story though.

Really Darren? How far would you go with this logic?

Would you sell a puppy to someone you knew was heavily into dog fighting?

Photos of kids to a known paedophile?

What wouldn't you sell, and to whom?

[kiwi]

Let's see, no, as that's illegal here as an activity, and no, becuase that's illegal here as an activity

I wouldnt sell anything to anyone using it directly illegally

But, would i manufacture and sell cars, yes...guns....yes...etc etc

Where does the liability for what you create end ?

[ving]

Really Darren? How far would you go with this logic?

Would you sell a puppy to someone you knew was heavily into dog fighting?

Photos of kids to a known paedophile?

What wouldn't you sell, and to whom?as darren stated... irrelevant. like selling bombs to terrorist cells that target australia...

so wht of the economical side sire?

[Mark L]

thats 12% of the GDP you are signing away! in monetary terms thats about $155 billion in lost revenue per year.... should we make another tax to make up for that lost money?

That doesn't refer to live animal exports. This does http://www.livecorp.com.au/SingleArticle/11-02-28/Value_of_livestock_exports_exceeds_AUD_1_billion_in_year_2010.aspx

The first paragraph says "The value of the Australian livestock export industry exceeded A$1 billion for the second year running in 2010, delivering $1.012 billion in export revenue to the Australian economy." LiveCorp would have some idea.

[Mark L]

do we care that our iron ore is used to make nuclear bombs ?

i think the issue of what happens to livestock after they are exported and sold is not really our concern.

makes a good story though.

But we do regulate who we sell uranium to though.

[jim]

Let's see, no, as that's illegal here as an activity, and no, becuase that's illegal here as an activity

I wouldnt sell anything to anyone using it directly illegally

But, would i manufacture and sell cars, yes...guns....yes...etc etc

Where does the liability for what you create end ?

Well I can only applaud the logical consistency of your position.

[ving]

." LiveCorp would have some idea.thanks. still $1 billion... nothing to sneeze at.

my info is from the national farmers federation 2011... it includes all farming i believe...

[Bennymiata]

But we do regulate who we sell uranium to though.

But we can't regulate who they on-sell it to!

The big problem with live animal exports is that different coultures have different ideas about the treatment of animals.
In some coultures, animals are there to be used and abused and their pain and possible feelings are totally ignored.
What may seem very cruel to us, means nothing to them, and it is expected of them to treat animals in this way.

I don't agree with treating animals cruelly and feel we should have more control over how they are kept and slaughtered, so perhaps we should set up the slaughter houses for the animals we export and then sell the carcases to them rather than let them slaughter and perhaps, misstreat the animals we export.

One big problem we have in Australia, is that we export the raw materials, but not the processed material - which is where the real money is.
We ship out bauxite instead of aluminium and live animals instead of meat.
Perhaps it's about time we hassled the government to stop the sales of raw materials in favour of processed, or at least, semi-processed items.

[Scotty72]

If I walked up to a knife shop, asked to buy a knife because I wanted to murder someone in another country: should the shop-keeper be in a whole lot of #### if he agreed to sell me the knife?

I would hope so - the shop-keeper should be an accessory to murder. He should not simply say, 'I need to make money to feed my kids.'

Why, we all have a duty of care towards our society and the society of our trading partners.

If we sell cattle to a slaughter-house that we know abuses the animals - breaking our laws and possibly theirs, should we be held to account?

I would hope so...

Perhaps if country A wants to buy our uranium for the stated intention of building a bomb to obliterate country B, do we say, "To hell with everything, we'll be rich and take no responsibility."

What a frightening world...

Scotty

[kiwi]

If they are breaking their laws then they should be damned.

I'm not for cruelty to animals, but I'm also not for banning live stock exports in general

Fix the problem at the problem

[Duane Pipe]

The only thing that annoys me about live/dead export is that Australian prime cuts go overseas.
Also, it's not our problem and we have more important things on our own soil to worry about, immigration is just one thing that I can list.
I wonder whether we should treat there immigrants the way they treat our livestock exports.:D

[wmphoto]

I have worked in this industry for about 15 years, including managing an abattoir and meat processing facility. I now work as a supplier to many abattoirs and boning rooms in Australia and I can assure you that banning live exports will create more problems than it solves. Some points to consider:

If live export was banned, all the abattoirs could not keep up with having to slaughter locally. With the exception of the current climate (drought and floods causing shortages) most have been running at or near capacity for a long time.
Animal welfare would be worse for these animals coming out of the North West and NT due to the longer trucking distances (worse than shipping). This also adds cost to the farmers and would send many of them broke.
We have no control over which abattoirs the animals go to even with banning them. Most animals are sold into feedlots and can end up anywhere.
If we ban live export, they will just get the animals from somewhere else. At least this way we still retain some control over the conditions and animal welfare.
That being said, I do believe that the MLA and Livecorp should hang their heads in shame. They have known about this for a VERY long time and should have been more proactive.

The one thing that really annoyed me was that the slaughter was not in accordance with the Halal procedures that are enforced upon Australian abattoirs, such as the kill should be with a single stroke of the knife and the animals are not allowed to see another dead animal. Yet here were these abattoirs supposedly conforming with Halal requirements, not complying with either of these, complete double standards. I can assure you that the slaughter of animals in Australian abattoirs is very humane and nothing like what was shown in the 4 Corners program.

Matters such as this are highly emotive and that leads to rational thinking being thrown out the window.

[farmer_rob]

Some of our cattle go for live export - mainly to japan. They are normally feedlotted there for 12 months. The investment in these cattle is huge at every step of the way, and none of the participant in the japan trade are willing to do anything that compromises the quality of the meat or results in the premature death of an animal. Stressed cattle are not good business, nor good meat, and animal cruelty is a sure way of stressing them.

A kneejerk banning of all live exports both hurts producers and processors who do the right thing as well as doing nothing to fix the problems of people not even following their own rules.

[Scotty72]

I also tend to think that a blanket ban is not necessary...

However, any Australian individual or business who knows (or ought to know) that abuse is going on and continues to supply cattle to anyone who knowingly participates (or ought to know) in cruelty ought to face all criminal / civil sanctions both here and there.

You can't just close your eyes to abuse by saying - 'it's business' or 'they would just source from elsewhere.' Or, if we do, lets extend that amorality to selling guns to gangsters too.

How much can Australia's soul be bought by the devil for? $1 billion, 2 billion?

[Kym]

Fix the problem abattoirs, but keep the trade going.
A blanket ban is silly!
As Rob said less stressed animals are better eating, so it's in everyone's interest to look after the beasties.

I worked in the meat industry in the 90's (both live export and locally processed for export), When it's done right there are no problems.

Note to self: Get some scotch fillet for the BBQ this w/end. :th3:

[ving]

If I walked up to a knife shop, asked to buy a knife because I wanted to murder someone in another country: should the shop-keeper be in a whole lot of #### if he agreed to sell me the knife?


Scottyif i buy a chicken from a farm and take it home to kill and eat is that wrong?
If i go to a chinese resturant and point to a tank of fish and say "i'll have that one" at which point it is caught, killed and cooked is that wrong?


cattle and sheep are not humans... cattle and sheep are bread to be eaten... this whole conversation is going to nothing but make more vegetarians :rolleyes:

[Scotty72]

I am just as big a meat eater as anyone. My favorite animals come with a serve of fries and mustard..

But, there is difference between humane killing and the sadistic cruelty that was evidenced on 4 Corners the other night. The sight of that poor animal shaking in fear as it was forced to watch 4 other beasts being carved up in front of it... It was obviously in mental agony (as any sentient being would be). There is just no excuse for that. Ever..




if i buy a chicken from a farm and take it home to kill and eat is that wrong?
If i go to a chinese resturant and point to a tank of fish and say "i'll have that one" at which point it is caught, killed and cooked is that wrong?


cattle and sheep are not humans... cattle and sheep are bread to be eaten... this whole conversation is going to nothing but make more vegetarians :rolleyes:

[Art Vandelay]

The one thing that really annoyed me was that the slaughter was not in accordance with the Halal procedures that are enforced upon Australian abattoirs,

Why does that not surprise me ?. :(

Good post.

I see your point of us not having the facilities now to process more instead of live export, but after seeing several large plants close down over years over here.. I believe we could have,, or should have been prepared to keep more of our processing here in Aus.

We are becoming more and more a nation of simply exporting resouces, rahter than value added products from those materials.

[Chilli]

The issue is not vegetarianism, ( ive never understood why people have issues with vegetarians anyway, people can choose to eat what they want, meat or no meat) .

The issue here is the cruelty to "living" animals. It is the ability to feel on ones skin that perhaps being dragged around by your nose or kicked in the head.......... hurts.

[farmer_rob]

Why does that not surprise me ?. :(

Good post.

I see your point of us not having the facilities now to process more instead of live export, but after seeing several large plants close down over years over here.. I believe we could have,, or should have been prepared to keep more of our processing here in Aus.

We are becoming more and more a nation of simply exporting resouces, rahter than value added products from those materials.

It's not only facilities. In our case, it is cheaper for the japanese to fatten the cattle in japan but cheaper for us to breed them. Hence, they spend half their lives in australia and half in japan. (Also, there is no religious aspect to it at all.) As well, the japanese look for entirely different cuts of meat, and also use quite different feeding regimes. It would be very hard for australians to get the high end meat sales without live export and processing in japan.

That aside, and regardless of the economics, cruelty and inhumane practices are not acceptable. However I do not accept that live export in and by itself is inhumane.

[ving]

The sight of that poor animal shaking in fear as it was forced to watch 4 other beasts being carved up in front of it... It was obviously in mental agony (as any sentient being would be). There is just no excuse for that. Ever..but the shaking makes the meat tenderer.... :th3:

[Scotty72]

but the shaking makes the meat tenderer.... :th3:

There nothing I can say about such callousness and inhumanity... there are no words

[wmphoto]

I see your point of us not having the facilities now to process more instead of live export, but after seeing several large plants close down over years over here.. I believe we could have,, or should have been prepared to keep more of our processing here in Aus.

Couldn't agree more, plus it would be good for my business :D. Unfortunately labour (availability and cost) and the seasonality of this type of market doesn't make it viable. In the north west there are a few abattoirs that have been shut for decades because it just wasn't viable to process the animals here. Also, as farmer_rob pointed out, there are so many different requirements from each market you just can't keep up.

[ving]

anyone searched youtube for australian abbitiours?

the whole industry of cattle slaghter is pretty gruesome. I reckon if i had to do it myself in order to eat some beef i'd go vege!

anyhow back to youtube... I found one where the cow was carraled into a tight spot, clamps came around its neck and a "stun gun" applied to its head. the floor lowers and the cow sits on a conveyor belt waiting for its throat to be cut... while its sitting there it takes in the wonderful view of other cows hanging upside down in vraious states of preparation (looked like they were being bled with thier heads off or something.

its a gruesome place to be, even in australia. It interesting to compare our slaughter stations to those of indonesia. we quite obviously have an much more high tech setup and one that they simply cant afford... but no, i dont agree with the kicking a whipping that occured. is it a cultural thing? if so are we sending a message that indonesian culture sucks?

more to think about...

[farmer_rob]

I have been present at the killing of some of our animals, and for the subsequent butchering. Death is not pleasant, but when killing is done properly, it is humane. Don't forget that animals (and humans) do thrash around after consciousness has gone.

[Kym]

I have been present at the killing of some of our animals, and for the subsequent butchering. Death is not pleasant, but when killing is done properly, it is humane. Don't forget that animals (and humans) do thrash around after consciousness has gone.

Diito. Back when working in the industry I spent time at the front end of the abattoirs.
The normal process is to knock (stun) the animal before cutting the throat.
I.e. the Animal is unconscious when killed.

The exception is halal when the animal is knocked after the throat is cut.

[HotRod]

Wow what a read just seeing everyone’s comments ... Me well I feel sorry for them and there are better ways to do it but why should we pay for it, most of the abettor’s feedlots and large farms that are set up for export in Australia are foreign owned we are selling out to the rest off the world

[Sezzy]

Why does that not surprise me ?. :(

Good post.

I see your point of us not having the facilities now to process more instead of live export, but after seeing several large plants close down over years over here.. I believe we could have,, or should have been prepared to keep more of our processing here in Aus.

We are becoming more and more a nation of simply exporting resouces, rahter than value added products from those materials.

Borthwicks in South Western Victoria closed down a long time ago, but live exports (mostly sheep) are a big part of the town's income (lots of farmers). In saying that, a friend has a husband who works at Dinmore up here, he was off work more days than on, as the abattoir didn't have enough 'traffic'.

I'm not a vegetarian, but I don't eat a lot of meat, my pets are my kids, and the more people I meet, the more I like my 'kids'...watching that documentary brought me to tears, mostly because I can't believe that anyone would be that cruel to an animal, regardless of whether it's for a meal or otherwise. I am still trying to get the image of that poor beast shaking out of my head. It's eyes are haunting...and I found it a little too disturbing.

I grew up on a farm, and as a kid I played a part in the sheep slaughtering process, this kind of barbaric treatment NEVER occurred. A blanket ban on all exports hurts both Australia as a whole and the farmer as an individual, so it's not economical at all for the 'hippies' to suggest...I would be happy if they banned exports to those abbatoirs that are not appropriately tooled up to humanely slaughter these animals.

[Bennymiata]

It seems your wish was granted Sezzy (thank goodness).

From the reports I heard this morning, only certain, humane abbotoirs will be getting our live exports from now on.
These abbotoirs wil also HAVE to have an animal rights person there to make sure they are OK.

[Tannin]

thats 12% of the GDP you are signing away!

Remind me to buy carpet from you. I'll ask for enough to do a small mat in the toilet, and wind up with enough to carpet the entire city!

12%? What planet does that figure come from, and can you see it on a clear night? :eek:

[Tannin]

we quite obviously have an much more high tech setup and one that they simply cant afford

Q: How much does a stun gun cost?

A: About as much as one cow. That's right, the price of one cow.

[Mark L]

12%? What planet does that figure come from, and can you see it on a clear night? :eek:

To be fair, that was addressed in post #11, and ving acknowledged the wrong figure in post #14.
I agree with your next post about stun gun. One wonders what the animals go through before they get stunned though.

[Scotty72]

Borthwicks in South Western Victoria closed down a long time ago, but live exports (mostly sheep) are a big part of the town's income (lots of farmers). In saying that, a friend has a husband who works at Dinmore up here, he was off work more days than on, as the abattoir didn't have enough 'traffic'.

I'm not a vegetarian, but I don't eat a lot of meat, my pets are my kids, and the more people I meet, the more I like my 'kids'...watching that documentary brought me to tears, mostly because I can't believe that anyone would be that cruel to an animal, regardless of whether it's for a meal or otherwise. I am still trying to get the image of that poor beast shaking out of my head. It's eyes are haunting...and I found it a little too disturbing.

I grew up on a farm, and as a kid I played a part in the sheep slaughtering process, this kind of barbaric treatment NEVER occurred. A blanket ban on all exports hurts both Australia as a whole and the farmer as an individual, so it's not economical at all for the 'hippies' to suggest...I would be happy if they banned exports to those abbatoirs that are not appropriately tooled up to humanely slaughter these animals.

Whilst I acknowledge your sincere, sensible post, I do take issue with one aspect. If we acknowledge a hideous wrong (I think we can agree what was shown on 4 Corners was wrong), we can not excuse, justify or ignore it by claiming it will financially disadvantage us.

Sorry, but, if some traders, farmers, truckers etc miss out: bad luck. This is a WRONG. In the same way we don't consider the losses of publicans when they are banned from selling alcohol to alcohol abusers: we should not consider those who will miss out when we ban selling animals to animal abusers. Just where would we draw the line: should we consider that casinos will miss out if problem gamblers are excluded (a major source of their revenue). These are all legal products that we all agree must have controls over whom they are sold to.

We should stop all trade until these places are brought up to scratch - they prove they have gold standards before a single beast is sent..

[I @ M]

We should stop all trade until these places are brought up to scratch - they prove they have gold standards before a single beast is sent..

I certainly don't condone poor treatment of animals which is what the original post is about but I rather think that if we were to apply your ideals to overseas trade and suggest that we shouldn't supply any exports ( animal, vegetable or mineral ) to places that don't have "gold standards" then there would be an awful lot of businesses going to the wall Scotty.

[Sezzy]

Whilst I acknowledge your sincere, sensible post, I do take issue with one aspect. If we acknowledge a hideous wrong (I think we can agree what was shown on 4 Corners was wrong), we can not excuse, justify or ignore it by claiming it will financially disadvantage us.

Sorry, but, if some traders, farmers, truckers etc miss out: bad luck. This is a WRONG. In the same way we don't consider the losses of publicans when they are banned from selling alcohol to alcohol abusers: we should not consider those who will miss out when we ban selling animals to animal abusers. Just where would we draw the line: should we consider that casinos will miss out if problem gamblers are excluded (a major source of their revenue). These are all legal products that we all agree must have controls over whom they are sold to.

We should stop all trade until these places are brought up to scratch - they prove they have gold standards before a single beast is sent..

I'm not condoning what they're doing by any means - but unless you live on a farm and understand how much of a person's livelihood goes into actually breeding cattle for human consumption, it's a little naive to suggest blanket bans (no disrespect intended). As far as I'm aware none of these farmers are selling direct to the abbatoirs in Indonesia...it's done on their behalf, and from what I could gather from the report, some of these farmers were even unaware of it happening as it is.

We can sit in our houses in the city and say, 'no - there should be a blanket ban on all abbatoirs', but are you going to pay their bills in the mean time?

I'm an animal lover and to see this happening to 'our' animals, really gets my goat - but I can't agree with a blanket ban that will no doubt cause people to suffer as a result of someone else's callous actions.

There has been some light at the end of the tunnel though, now it just needs to get approved...

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/breaking-news/indonesia-provides-cattle-export-plan/story-e6frea73-1226070328971

[macmich]

scotty
do you live in the country or the city
do a search or take a trip to the bush and ask about the suicide rate of farmers
and your suggesting to take more trade away
you might as well send all the cockies anoose
because there will be more suicides if you take there lively hood of them

[Chilli]

Not many humans are Atheist when it comes to $.
The farming industy will have to be compensated by the regulators who did NOT do their job !!!!!!

[Scotty72]

So,

Should I feel more sorry for the casino worker who loses her job because the casino loses business or the family of the guy who loses the family house to a gambling addiction.

Does keeping her job justify the sufferring of an innocent family?

Maybe I should weep at the financial losses of the Victorian tobacco growers who go to the wall when society tries to reduce smoking rates: Or do we actively encourage smoking so they can keep their farms (a tobacco industry rescue / stimulus package) so I can then weep for the hundreds of thousands of extra cancer victims it will cause.

Who would you chose to suffer? Most just follow the $$$ signs.

I am sorry. But, my conscious cannot be wiped by these $ signs.

Being part of the supply chain that closes its eyes to horrible animal abuse is, IMHO, unconscionable.

If we justify this outrage by citing the almighty dollar, why not start up a kiddie p0rn export business - we could bring in millions?

Scotty

[macmich]

scotty
just as a matter off interest what sort of work are you in
cheers macca

[Tannin]

So, Macca, are we to conclude from your posts that you think it is OK to make your living by torturing animals?

There is no middle ground: either you believe that it is OK to sell your animals for torture, or you don't.

To say that people will struggle to male a quid so we can't have a ban - this is to admit that these same people have been making a living from the torture of their animals, and admit that you are in favour of having it continue. Lay it on the line: are you prepared to tolerate the torture of our animals, or not? Either the animals go over there to be tortured, or they don't. There is no middle ground, no way to avoid the question.

Yes, or no. Tell us your answer.

[Scotty72]

scotty
just as a matter off interest what sort of work are you in
cheers macca

A high school teacher.

So, before you try to turn that against me; play the man, not the ball: let me do it for you.

Yes, there are problems in education but, I assure you, I regularly make myself a pain in my boss's ar$e complaining about the wrongs in my profession too.

- Such as the horrible NAPLAN-isation of the primary focus of my school and the sacrificing of ethical principles on that altar - (thanks Julia)
- The blatant unfairness of unequal access and unequal opportunity to disabled kids (and teachers for that matter)
- The exemption the DET has for fire standards. My whinging embarrassed my school into spending many thousands of dollars fixing it (letters to the editor and local MP helped that).
- The wasting of thousands of $$$ of gratuitous self-promotion (we are a public school for crying out loud - but, I lost that battle and now my school is more gloss / less substance).

There are others but, I wont bore you.

Needless to say, my boss would happily get rid of me if she could :)

Can every person change the world? Probably not but, if you see something that is just plain wrong (such as the needless torture of animals) - you should have the courage to speak up.

Unless of course, $ is the new moral imperative.

Scotty

[macmich]

tony
i am all for the exports
i am not happy with the cruelty but that issue is being addressed
there would hardly be a proffession in the world that is not doing something wrong
the farmer is not torturing the animals
the farmer supplies the animals
the biggest exporter is setting up with his own money the stun guns and training and oversears for these places and all others will be banned until they conform
i used to go down to the docks at portland when this live exports started with the sheep in portland in the mid to late 70s
the times have changed so much over the years and will continue to change
do you own furniture or use writing paper
do you live in a house
because all these things are torturing animals to some extent
the forests are being destryed all over the world and the animals are slowly going extinct
but in this day and age they are showing the less fortunate countries how to revegitate and regrow the forests
the same as the way the slaughter of animals is being taught
there is no way that the export of live animals will stop but it will improve
as for the tobacco industry i would not care one way or the other if the shut it down
it peoples own choice to smoke and if they want the problems associated with it let them go
you take the industry out of australia it will only be smuggled from somewhere else or harder stuff will replace it
at least steps are being taking to stop passive smoking
i dont have to avoid the question of animal cruelty and i do favour live exports but like i said times are changing and the wheels are in motion for the problem to be fixed
cheers macca

[Avalon]

I wish I hadn't started reading this thread.
Some of the insensitive comments make me feel sick to my stomach.
I stopped eating meat 35 years ago because of the disgusting and inhumane way we treat the living feeling animals that are abused for the sake of money.
This is not about culture, it is about cruelty, ignorance and the almighty dollar.

[Scotty72]

Thankfully.

Common sense, decency and humanity infects our federal govt/

Live exports to Indonesia suspended indefinitely :th3:

Scotty

[Tannin]

Scotty - next we get the whingers complaining and begging for "compensation".
Excuse me!

Do we compensate tobacco retailers because we stopped them selling drugs to children?
Do we compensate accounting conmen because we closed the loopholes and stopped them stealing money from grannies by (technically legal) fraud and deception?
Why should we "compensate" people when we stop them making money by selling cows to be tortured in Indonesia?


Where is the logical difference? Ans: there isn't any.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Macmich - thankyou for your honest reply, and thankyou for having the courage to admit that you are in favour of animal torture because it makes money. Thats OK. I don't agree, but you have the right to your opinion, and I fully defend your right to believe what you feel is right and to defend that belief in public.


-------------------------------------------------------------------

Everyone - this is a victory for common sense, and for people power.

Over the next few months, we can look forward to a real effort by the cattle industry to bring humanity and decency to the Indonesian meat trade. (As opposed to the shonky pretend effort it has put in up to now.) I have every confidence that the industry, now that it is really trying, will be successful in eliminating most of the wanton brutality, and covering up the rest so that it never makes it onto TV screens again.

[fabian628]

tony
i am all for the exports
i am not happy with the cruelty but that issue is being addressed
there would hardly be a proffession in the world that is not doing something wrong
the farmer is not torturing the animals
the farmer supplies the animals
the biggest exporter is setting up with his own money the stun guns and training and oversears for these places and all others will be banned until they conform
i used to go down to the docks at portland when this live exports started with the sheep in portland in the mid to late 70s
the times have changed so much over the years and will continue to change
do you own furniture or use writing paper
do you live in a house
because all these things are torturing animals to some extentthe forests are being destryed all over the world and the animals are slowly going extinct
but in this day and age they are showing the less fortunate countries how to revegitate and regrow the forests
the same as the way the slaughter of animals is being taught
there is no way that the export of live animals will stop but it will improve
as for the tobacco industry i would not care one way or the other if the shut it down
it peoples own choice to smoke and if they want the problems associated with it let them go
you take the industry out of australia it will only be smuggled from somewhere else or harder stuff will replace it
at least steps are being taking to stop passive smoking
i dont have to avoid the question of animal cruelty and i do favour live exports but like i said times are changing and the wheels are in motion for the problem to be fixed
cheers macca

this is a good point.
What about child labour, slavery used to produce clothing / collect raw materials in Africa china etc. ? By buying these products you are essentially endorsing this behaviour. It is all good to ban the export of the live animals, however it is somewhat hypocritical to support industry that does violate human rights also.
I do not have any answers, it is so difficult to change anything, so much money / power at stake to do the right thing. However, it is an over reaction to sign a petition after watching a documentary on the television without properly educating yourself on the matter.

[ricstew]

Hmmmmm I have read through most of this and am very surprised at the amount of energy spent. Wouldn't is be easier/cheaper to spend the monies we regularly send to Indonesia/Malaysia/pick a bloody country! to set up proper abbies........give guidance in the humanities....and set up refrigeration?
Do we get so emotive over human abuse of humans?

[Scotty72]

Hmmmmm I have read through most of this and am very surprised at the amount of energy spent. Wouldn't is be easier/cheaper to spend the monies we regularly send to Indonesia/Malaysia/pick a bloody country! to set up proper abbies........give guidance in the humanities....and set up refrigeration?
Do we get so emotive over human abuse of humans?

I agree:

For a start, I wish Australians would get as worked up over our disgusting treatment of asylum seekers - (sending children off for a beating in Malaysia).

[terry.langham]

Scotty - next we get the whingers complaining and begging for "compensation".
Excuse me!

Do we compensate tobacco retailers because we stopped them selling drugs to children?
Do we compensate accounting conmen because we closed the loopholes and stopped them stealing money from grannies by (technically legal) fraud and deception?
Why should we "compensate" people when we stop them making money by selling cows to be tortured in Indonesia?


Where is the logical difference? Ans: there isn't any.


I would have thought it would be fair to compensate the farmers that have invested time and money in cattle that hasn't yet been sold and will now be of little value. I believe most wouldn't know where there cows go after getting to the sale yards.

However the exporters and government agencies that knew what was going on and didn't act appropriately to stop it are a different story.

[kiwi]

We should also consider not reimporting beef noodles from indonesia too

[farmer_rob]

1st, before anyone gets on my case, I wish to point out that I do not agree with the cruelty shown in Indonesia to the animals killed there, and we as a nation should be taking steps to ensure that cattle are treated humanely in the slaughter process (and no, I do not see that as a contradiction.)

Stopping the trade has serious impacts for the cattle industries:

For the northern australian farmer, it is likely to be economically very damaging, and the potential for damage to the wider industry is high through knock-on effects.

The indonesian trade is suggested to be a $350m trade. This translates to about 350,000 head of cattle per year, or about 140,000,000 kg of beef: 7kg per Australian. All cattle are sold from farms - either on contract or through the sale yard - as part of normal operations. The cattle can't be kept forever, and there is a prime age for selling them - so they have to be sold and slaughtered (otherwise they will starve and die, or left to roam and become feral).

If the cattle don't go to indonesia, they go onto the market somewhere else, depressing prices and depressing all farming incomes. At the same time, the meat is not "premium" meat. (The Brahmin and other tropical breeds are tougher and leaner than european and british breeds) It can't be sold into other markets such as Japan. It won't appear in a supermarket near you, but it may appear in a macdonalds (mincing solves a stack of tenderness issues).

I think the MLA and Livecorp have let down the cattle industry appallingly. At the same time, the government is just pushing us further into the shit. Next the animal activists will be trying to stop all live exports, including to those countries that DO treat cattle humanely. That will directly hit me.

(Oh, and for anyone who considers I treat my cattle in a "disgusting and inhumane way", they are welcome to come and visit and I will attempt to prove them wrong. Well treated and well-looked-after animals is better business.)

[Tannin]

I would have thought it would be fair to compensate the farmers that have invested time and money in cattle that hasn't yet been sold and will now be of little value. I believe most wouldn't know where there cows go after getting to the sale yards.

It is their duty to know these things. They are obligated to take reasonable steps to ensure that their cattle are treated humanely. Pretending that you don't know is the oldest excuse in the book - the same excuse trotted out by the asbestos miners, the same excuse trotted out by the tobacco companies.

Why should I pay money to "compensate" someone else for not making money by torturing animals? That doesn't make sense. No-one is asking them to pay back the money they made from all the torture in the past, just to stop making more of it until their animals are treated properly.

[ricstew]

Is it the duty of the pig farmer to check how the sausages are made? Or how much packaging the apples are in? or that the wheat is milled to a ??% suitable for eating?

[Scotty72]

1st, before anyone gets on my case, I wish to point out that I do not agree with the cruelty shown in Indonesia to the animals killed there, and we as a nation should be taking steps to ensure that cattle are treated humanely in the slaughter process (and no, I do not see that as a contradiction.)

Stopping the trade has serious impacts for the cattle industries:

For the northern australian farmer, it is likely to be economically very damaging, and the potential for damage to the wider industry is high through knock-on effects.

The indonesian trade is suggested to be a $350m trade. This translates to about 350,000 head of cattle per year, or about 140,000,000 kg of beef: 7kg per Australian. All cattle are sold from farms - either on contract or through the sale yard - as part of normal operations. The cattle can't be kept forever, and there is a prime age for selling them - so they have to be sold and slaughtered (otherwise they will starve and die, or left to roam and become feral).

If the cattle don't go to indonesia, they go onto the market somewhere else, depressing prices and depressing all farming incomes. At the same time, the meat is not "premium" meat. (The Brahmin and other tropical breeds are tougher and leaner than european and british breeds) It can't be sold into other markets such as Japan. It won't appear in a supermarket near you, but it may appear in a macdonalds (mincing solves a stack of tenderness issues).

I think the MLA and Livecorp have let down the cattle industry appallingly. At the same time, the government is just pushing us further into the shit. Next the animal activists will be trying to stop all live exports, including to those countries that DO treat cattle humanely. That will directly hit me.

(Oh, and for anyone who considers I treat my cattle in a "disgusting and inhumane way", they are welcome to come and visit and I will attempt to prove them wrong. Well treated and well-looked-after animals is better business.)

No one is accusing you of mistreating your animals: I have no idea why you would think that.

As for compo: why? Why should the tax payer pay for the short-comings of your industry?

If you want to sue anyone, sue the MLA who failed in its duty to you (and I assume you're a member of it). I heard the MLA dude on the radio today, talking how it is their mission to ensure the humane treatment of the stock they sell.

This last week has shown that these were just weasel words - and they should be the ones sued over their failings - not the tax payers.

Scotty

[Sezzy]

The tax payer pays for those who choose not to get a job...why shouldn't we compensate people who are actually 'really' supporting the country's economy and through no fault of their own are now disadvantaged?

[Scotty72]

But, using that logic, if all the unemployed get a job, we would have to compensate the poor people at the centre-link office who would lose their jobs - through no fault of their own.

[macmich]

tannin if you read it right it says i am not for the torture of animals
and its not the cattle industry that would be at fault
surely when deals were done with indonsia and australia the treatment of animals would have been adressed
the goverment if this being the case in my opinion should seek compensation from indonesia for the lost income for the farmers
they are stating a 6 month suspension at this stage
i just hope the work on the abs over there and training
is done earlier
even the cattle farmers were shocked at the treatment of the beasts
tell me are you going to be happy with the stunning of the beast and then the slitting of the throat for the bleed out
cheers macca
ps i have no qualms with anyone over this subject
as everyone has there own opinion and that should be respected

[farmer_rob]

No one is accusing you of mistreating your animals: I have no idea why you would think that.

There was a comment made earlier that seemed to be directed at all cattle farmers. I object to the casual grouping that occurred, although there is no need for it to go further. (not a comment of yours scotty.)


As for compo: why? Why should the tax payer pay for the short-comings of your industry?

I am not asking for compensation, just suggesting it is a more complex situation than it appears. BTW, every time I sell cattle, I pay a "cattle compensation" levy for previous live export disasters. Personally, I'd disband MLA, sacking every last executive, and get someone in who can do the job properly. I have NO choice about being a member or paying levies to the useless pack of...


If you want to sue anyone, sue the MLA who failed in its duty to you (and I assume you're a member of it). I heard the MLA dude on the radio today, talking how it is their mission to ensure the humane treatment of the stock they sell.

This last week has shown that these were just weasel words - and they should be the ones sued over their failings - not the tax payers.

Scotty

Certainly weasel words. Turn a blind eye and hope for the best. Slack, useless, (insert preferred insults here). The MLA have failed australian cattle farmers yet again.

[Sezzy]

But, using that logic, if all the unemployed get a job, we would have to compensate the poor people at the centre-link office who would lose their jobs - through no fault of their own.

I don't know if you know much about social welfare - but there are still Aged pensioners and single mothers about - more than enough to keep the Centrelink staff employed...

I've lived in the country, and the city - I know where the food on my table comes from...and if it wasn't for the farmers that people don't seem to care about - we'd all starve...and that is unfortunately a fact.

If you have ever lived in the country, you will understand, if you haven't, no amount of logic will change your mind...

People tend to have a fairly one eyed opinion when it comes to these things, I rather try and look at it from both sides...

[Scotty72]

Yes, I've lived in the country.

But take away the unemployed, and at least some welfare staff, compliance officers, bank staff who process payment will be redundant.

You obviously have no compassion for them. :cool:

[Sezzy]

So you're happy to pay for people who 'don't' want to get a job...but a primary producer gets the big shunt from you? Yet he's the one who puts food on your table...I sincerely hope you don't teach the kids that, or we'll be starving in ten years when there's no arable land and the farmers have all shut up shop, and the only place you can get food from is overseas and steak is $100kg instead of $30.

Don't misunderstand me, what's happened is atrocious...and I agree they shouldn't be sent where they're going to be mistreated...but you are now faced with another problem regarding animal rights. Cattle from the top end, where does it go to now to get slaughtered? Tennant Creek - middle of nowhere, so the cattle are shunted onto a vehicle and trucked thousands of kilometres to the nearest meat works...that's hardly got the animals best interest in mind has it?

So what do the farmers do with them now...?

It's all well and good to say no, but what happens to the cattle? And what happens to the farmers...or do people just not care about their fellow humans...

A farmer knows how to farm, try taking a visit up here someday - the amount of farmers who couldn't survive on the farms sold up and moved to the city - only to start committing suicide is beyond belief.

[wmphoto]

Of course the farmers should get compensation, unlike when the average person loses their job, they can't just get another job. Farming is their livelihood. They still have animals to feed, bills to pay and family to support and the average wage just wouldn't cover this. Farmers don't have a regular income like the average person and a decision like this can and will have a devastating impact.

What about all the cattle currently sitting on the docks in Port Hedland? Does the farmer take them back? But how can he afford to feed them since he's not going to be paid? How can he now afford to pay for the extra cost of trucking them to Perth or Darwin? What about the animal welfare on these long trips?

Yes it is about the $$$ but more importantly it is about people's lives and their family. There is a better way to handle this than a blanket ban.

No I don't support animal cruelty and the fact that I support live trade doesn't mean otherwise. Plenty of abattoirs in Indonesia that aren't like those shown on 4 corners, so a partial ban with better monitoring and regulation is the answer.........with a complete shake up of the MLA who collect COMPULSORY fees from the industry and have let them down. This is a short sighted decision designed to win votes and continue the support of the green party.

And Scotty.....no farmers don't all ways know where their cattle go as a lot are sold to agents who then on sell them to the live traders (not having a go at you just correcting your earlier statement in post 21 that farmers should know where their animals go) :)

[ricstew]

and the flow on effect.............what does my hubby ( and me ) do with $$$$ steel already ordered that were meant to be cattle yards........crap is that the bank on the phone?

[ApolloLXII]

I stayed out of this thread mainly becauseI didn't see the footage showing the cruelty being done to the livestock. From what I have heard other people say, I can imagine that it was pretty horrific and would have have garnered a strong reaction from me as I will not stand by and watch cruelty being inflicted upon any kind of animal. This topic is a pretty emotive one, which probably goes without saying, as evidenced from some of the posts here but in my opinion, stock being sold for slaughter overseas should be treated humanely, no matter what the country of origin or destination is.

I believe that the Australian stock industry has always maintained a high standard of animal welfare but the onus now is on the Indonesians to do the same so I agree that exports should be stopped, even though that is going to adversely impact on cattle farmers. In terms of trade, the Indonesians have no choice but to conform because they can't afford to source their meat supply from anywhere else without having the retail prices rise so any ban imposed by Australia shouldn't last very long. The threat by Indonesia to complain to the WTO won't get them very far. They need the meat just as much as we need to sell it to them so the ball is in their court.

[Scotty72]

So you're happy to pay for people who 'don't' want to get a job...but a primary producer gets the big shunt from you? Yet he's the one who puts food on your table...I sincerely hope you don't teach the kids that, or we'll be starving in ten years when there's no arable land and the farmers have all shut up shop, and the only place you can get food from is overseas and steak is $100kg instead of $30.

Don't misunderstand me, what's happened is atrocious...and I agree they shouldn't be sent where they're going to be mistreated...but you are now faced with another problem regarding animal rights. Cattle from the top end, where does it go to now to get slaughtered? Tennant Creek - middle of nowhere, so the cattle are shunted onto a vehicle and trucked thousands of kilometres to the nearest meat works...that's hardly got the animals best interest in mind has it?

So what do the farmers do with them now...?

It's all well and good to say no, but what happens to the cattle? And what happens to the farmers...or do people just not care about their fellow humans...

A farmer knows how to farm, try taking a visit up here someday - the amount of farmers who couldn't survive on the farms sold up and moved to the city - only to start committing suicide is beyond belief.

It is called sarcasm : pointing out the lunacy of your argument. Your main argument is that farmers will lose income : so let's keep up the cruel trade. But, if Centrelink staff lose income : let's keep handing out welfare. Both positions are as dopey as the other.

[ApolloLXII]

and the flow on effect.............what does my hubby ( and me ) do with $$$$ steel already ordered that were meant to be cattle yards........crap is that the bank on the phone?

You put a hold on the order and you tell the bank that you're in the middle of a "live export" crisis. While the former should be easily achievable, I understand that the latter (getting the banks' understanding or even sympathy) might be akin to whistling "Dixie" in a 60 knot gale while trying to balance a full glass of milk on your nose. ;)

[Jules]

Wow. So many passionate responses to this subject, both here and in wider Australia.

Imagine what we as a nation could achieve if we turned equal measures of 'people power' towards issues such as extreme poverty, AIDS in Africa or child sex trafficking.

[Sezzy]

It might be called sarcasm, but I'm asking some very valid questions, that you don't seem to have answers to...so what happens to the farmers?

I never said keep up the cruel trade, I merely asked the question as to what the farmers now do with the cattle that they can't get rid of? And how do you prevent another case of animal cruelty when they are trucked thousands of kilometres?

[Bennymiata]

From what I heard this morning, Indonesia is now seeking compensation for the ban from the Australian government!

I wouldn't doubt that the video shown on the ABC was probably the very worst that the producer could possibly find, and that not all the slaughter houses in Indonesia are as bad as the one shown on the ABC.
I'm also fairly certain that even at that particular slaughterhouse, that animals are not always treated this way, and this particular animal probably got caught up somewhere along the line and this is why he was herded in such a manner, bu that is not forgiving them by any means as no animal should ever be treated this way.
As soon as it was apparent that he broke his leg, he should have been shot immediately and his carcass taken away for processing.

I am no farmer, but I've been on a few farms, and I know that at least 99% of farmers love their animals and will go out of their way, at any time of the day or night, in any inclement weather, to save any of them that are in trouble.
I've seen farmers crying over the loss of a single animal, when they have thousands of others to look after.

[Scotty72]

It might be called sarcasm, but I'm asking some very valid questions, that you don't seem to have answers to...so what happens to the farmers?

I never said keep up the cruel trade, I merely asked the question as to what the farmers now do with the cattle that they can't get rid of? And how do you prevent another case of animal cruelty when they are trucked thousands of kilometres?

First of all, you didn't answer my earlier question: what happens to the casino workers who finds themselves on the scrap-heap after the government has an anti-gambling campaign; the cigarette industry worker (or the local shop who sells ciggys) finds herself out of work when the government cracks down on under-age smokers?

My answer is... too bad - we are under no obligation to compensate businesses who suffer because their industry needs some cleaning up.

If the farmers wish to play the blame-game... blame their industry group who has turned a blind eye to this animal abuse. Pretending they are ensuring the welfare whilst all the while, knowing what was happening (or ought to have known).

Next, if the government wants to run an 'Eat healthy' campaign, you'll want to hand over a lazy billion to McDonald's.

After the next 'Brush your teeth' program, let's compensate the dentists and fillings manufactures for loss of future earnings.

The panel beaters will be driven to bankruptcy after the next 'drive safely' ads.

Just where will this end?

[Tannin]

It might be called sarcasm, but I'm asking some very valid questions, that you don't seem to have answers to...so what happens to the farmers?

It's tough. No two ways about it. They have painted themselves into a corner by turning a blind eye to horrific cruelty in the pursuit of easy export dollars. Now you might argue that this was negligent, you might argue that this was stupid, you might argue that this was betrayal by their industry bodies, you might argue that this was just selfish greed - but it doesn't much matter which of those were true (or a little bit of all of them, which is my belief): the industry has got to where it is by massive, uncaring cruelty.

We, the people of Australia, will not tolerate that going on any longer. It stops. Right now. We, the people of Australia, are generally easy-going and pretty forgiving, and because of that no-one is calling for the exporters to be punished for the cruelty they have been complicit in up to now, and (perhaps rather surprisingly) no-one is even calling for confiscation of those immoral earnings made in past years. That's OK. Punishment achieves little anyway. The important thing is to (1) stop torturing cattle, and (2) look for ways to reopen trade with Indonesia under known, humane conditions.

What happens to the farmers? 1: they stop making money by selling animals to be tortured. Right now. No exceptions. It stops. Forever. (2) They figure out some other way to make a dollar. If they can't find a decent, civilised way to make a quid, as always, the nation provides help in the form of unemployment benefits and retraining schemes. But it shouldn't have to come to that. With any luck, they should be able to start exporting to Indonesia again just as soon as there is proper certification of decent processes in the slaughterhouses over there.

[Tannin]

I wouldn't doubt that ... not all the slaughter houses in Indonesia are as bad as the one shown on the ABC.

If you were paying attention you would have learned from the program that they visited a total of 11 slaughterhouses, and every single one of those they were able to visit was using horrible, unnecessarily cruel practices very similar to those shown.

11 out of 11. You reckon #12 is going to be a whole lot better? I know where my bet would go.

[gabby]

I'm a bit late reading this but whilst I see the need to allow live exports of animals, for breeding purposes etc, I was reminded of the issue of the Aussie sheep which were sent to one of the Arabian countries in very overcrowded conditions-imagine not being able to sit/lay down for that period- only to be denied entry because their condition wasn't as good as it could have been.. so they were trying to sell them off cheap to some other country who would accept our weakened lambs which would not have been in that state if they'd just ordered the meat in a frozen state. These animals deserve to have their short lives protected from the stress of this sort of thing-even if only that the stress levels reportedly increase the toughness of the beef.

[Sezzy]

First of all, you didn't answer my earlier question: what happens to the casino workers who finds themselves on the scrap-heap after the government has an anti-gambling campaign; the cigarette industry worker (or the local shop who sells ciggys) finds herself out of work when the government cracks down on under-age smokers?

My answer is... too bad - we are under no obligation to compensate businesses who suffer because their industry needs some cleaning up.

If the farmers wish to play the blame-game... blame their industry group who has turned a blind eye to this animal abuse. Pretending they are ensuring the welfare whilst all the while, knowing what was happening (or ought to have known).

Next, if the government wants to run an 'Eat healthy' campaign, you'll want to hand over a lazy billion to McDonald's.

After the next 'Brush your teeth' program, let's compensate the dentists and fillings manufactures for loss of future earnings.

The panel beaters will be driven to bankruptcy after the next 'drive safely' ads.

Just where will this end?

You're talking about hypotheticals - this is actually really happening. None of the things you mentioned have or ever will happen, because human beings are involved, and the Government makes money off most of these things (directly or indirectly). You can turn a blind eye to this because it doesn't directly affect you, but it will. In one way or another it will affect you, and that is a fact.


It's tough. No two ways about it. They have painted themselves into a corner by turning a blind eye to horrific cruelty in the pursuit of easy export dollars. Now you might argue that this was negligent, you might argue that this was stupid, you might argue that this was betrayal by their industry bodies, you might argue that this was just selfish greed - but it doesn't much matter which of those were true (or a little bit of all of them, which is my belief): the industry has got to where it is by massive, uncaring cruelty.

We, the people of Australia, will not tolerate that going on any longer. It stops. Right now. We, the people of Australia, are generally easy-going and pretty forgiving, and because of that no-one is calling for the exporters to be punished for the cruelty they have been complicit in up to now, and (perhaps rather surprisingly) no-one is even calling for confiscation of those immoral earnings made in past years. That's OK. Punishment achieves little anyway. The important thing is to (1) stop torturing cattle, and (2) look for ways to reopen trade with Indonesia under known, humane conditions.

What happens to the farmers? 1: they stop making money by selling animals to be tortured. Right now. No exceptions. It stops. Forever. (2) They figure out some other way to make a dollar. If they can't find a decent, civilised way to make a quid, as always, the nation provides help in the form of unemployment benefits and retraining schemes. But it shouldn't have to come to that. With any luck, they should be able to start exporting to Indonesia again just as soon as there is proper certification of decent processes in the slaughterhouses over there.

I don't know if you read some of the earlier posts, these farmers sell to agents who then onsell...and as a result, their livelihood is now at stake. You can't turn a blind eye to something you don't know about, it's that simple. And now we're just punishing farmers for something that a 'compulsory industry body' has allowed to take place.

You demand action to fix the animal cruelty, and then create more cases of it here in Australia by ensuring that stock has to be shipped thousands of kilometres away. It's hypocritical at best. A cattle farmer can't last six months without selling his stock...and people don't seem to understand that, or care for that matter...I don't see why not? They are after all the one's who put food on our tables...

I really hate to be the bearer of bad news, but only 240,547 petition the get up petition(as of ten minutes ago), that's less than 1% of the population...so 'we, the people' is just really a very loud minority...who have now destroyed more of the Australian economy.

Easy export dollars? Do you have any idea what hoops these guys have to jump through to get their stock 'fit for export'?

They visited 11 slaughterhouses out of 125...a total of 8% of the slaughterhouses in Indonesia. So what about the ones that they didn't visit, or is making gross generalisations about a small portion of them enough for Australian minority to say 'we won't stand for it!'

I commend people for caring about the animals (I do too), but it's really quite sad that the expectation is that these farmers will just 'find something else to do'...if I told someone that they couldn't do their job anymore, and had to 'find something else' that they weren't qualified to do, I'd be hung, drawn and quartered in a matter of seconds.

They're not selling the animals to be tortured, they're selling animals to make a living - blanket bans don't solve this issue, or put food on their tables.

[Scotty72]

You're talking about hypotheticals - this is actually really happening. None of the things you mentioned have or ever will happen, because human beings are involved, and the Government makes money off most of these things (directly or indirectly). You can turn a blind eye to this because it doesn't directly affect you, but it will. In one way or another it will affect you, and that is a fact.

Not happening? Are you trying to be funny?

Govt anti-smoking campaigns are continuing to drive down smoking rates. From about 50% a few decades ago to about 15% (from memory). So, should the tobacco farmers & industry be compensated for the billions each years they have lost?

Govt regulations force the gaming industry to exclude problem gamblers: should the pokies and casino industry get compo for that lost revenue etc.


Wow! There are none so blind as those who have a financial reason for not seeing.


You can't turn a blind eye to something you don't know about, it's that simple.See above - re the blind.



And now we're just punishing farmers for something that a 'compulsory industry body' has allowed to take place.I sincerely wish you all the best in suing the industry groups


You demand action to fix the animal cruelty, and then create more cases of it here in Australia by ensuring that stock has to be shipped thousands of kilometres away. It's hypocritical at best.At least the Oz government can enforce the laws here.


A cattle farmer can't last six months without selling his stock...and people don't seem to understand that, or care for that matter...I don't see why not? They are after all the one's who put food on our tables...Yes, they do an important job but, that doesn't give the industry a licence to break the laws.


I really hate to be the bearer of bad news, but only 240,547 petition the get up petition(as of ten minutes ago), that's less than 1% of the population...so 'we, the people' is just really a very loud minority...who have now destroyed more of the Australian economy.
So, how many did the pro-export petition get?



They visited 11 slaughterhouses out of 125...a total of 8% of the slaughterhouses in Indonesia. So what about the ones that they didn't visit, or is making gross generalisations about a small portion of them enough for Australian minority to say 'we won't stand for it!' Maybe if they visited 100, they'd find 100 torture chambers. What were you saying about hypotheticals. It is better to deal with the facts as we know them, not as you desperately wish them to be.

[Art Vandelay]

We should get this darned internet off too. Some use it for child pornograpphy.

[Mark L]

We should get this darned internet off too. Some use it for child pornograpphy.

That's kind of what Senator Conroy wants to do.:rolleyes:

[ricstew]

so I sold a set of bread and butter knives on Ebay.......price was ok until I had to pay tax, transport, holding fee, yard duty and association fees. whoo hoo made 20 cents on the dollar! hmmmm minus storage, polish etc etc :( Well blow me down the bloke who bought them sold them onto a nut job who used them to do something horrible! Now some person tells me I cant sell the rest of my bread and butter knives! That the bread and butter knife market is closed ?? OMG and its MY fault that some nut job did something horrible with his purchase?

edited to add
Thanks Apollo I was trying to get across that this stuff effects all sorts of people.......not just the cattle industry .....it will effect us in the bush maybe more than those sitting in nice warm office jobbies....

[Scotty72]

so I sold a set of bread and butter knives on Ebay.......price was ok until I had to pay tax, transport, holding fee, yard duty and association fees. whoo hoo made 20 cents on the dollar! hmmmm minus storage, polish etc etc :( Well blow me down the bloke who bought them sold them onto a nut job who used them to do something horrible! Now some person tells me I cant sell the rest of my bread and butter knives! That the bread and butter knife market is closed ?? OMG and its MY fault that some nut job did something horrible with his purchase?

edited to add
Thanks Apollo I was trying to get across that this stuff effects all sorts of people.......not just the cattle industry .....it will effect us in the bush maybe more than those sitting in nice warm office jobbies....

If you know (or reasonably ought to know) that the original purchaser intended to on-sell to the murderous nut-job then, yes, you should bear some responsibity. It would be called accessory before the fact (conspiracy).

Is it really your contention that the cattle industry is still blissfully unaware? Just how stupid do you want us to believe that farmers are? I have a lot more faith in the intelligence of our farmers than, it seems, you do.

Scotty

[Mr Lensbaby]

The only one here with a grasp is farmer bob . The ban is for 6 months by that time all contracts will be filled and Australia will have buckle's chance of getting back in . Typical midnight decision without looking at the future

Fact is 12 out of 100 slaughter houses are doing the wrong thing so we ban the lot??? And how do we now try to help that 12 slaughter houses bring there practices up to OUR standards???
Another stuff up from a stuffed government.

[farmer_rob]

Re: Compensation: as Ricstew indirectly poiinted out, this is a trading issue, not an employment issue. The analogies with compensating employees for the loss of their jobs are not relevant. Instead, the government is preventing businesses (who have not broken any australian law) from carrying out their trade - the australian constitution provides for comoensation in this circumstance (a feature the tobacco companies are trying to make use of with regard to plain packaging).

Re: knowledge of purchaser behaviour: I think people are expecting too much of the average farmer. I do not have the resources to go and inspect the potential destinations for my cattle. Instead I rely on representations from purchasing companies, and supervision by compulsory industry bodies and the government. To suggest that their failure is my failure is unfair imo.

In reality, the cattle supply chain is complex, and little understood if some of the press reports are taken at face value. (e.g in the paper today, there is an article by Michelle Grattan implying that only northern australia will be affected by a total ban on live animal exports. I export live animals and am not in northern australia.)

Regulations affect every step of the way. I have to get an animal health statement from the DPI before I can ship cattle to a quarantine feedlot in Queensland. I have to provide an animal health statement before I can move them through NSW. I have to sign a Premises of origin statement for the destination country. I sold one lot of live export cattle through a local market, and only found out they would be live expored after the fact. The cattle that are normally sold to Japan are under contract, but the contract is with an australian company. They onsell to a japanese subsidiary, who then onsell to feedlots. However one of the big players in the market offeres 3forms of contract - one where you onw the cattle until slaughter, one where you share the profits and one where you sell them pretty much as soon as they leave the farm.

I am not doing this for megabucks. The price we got through the saleyard was typical for black angus of that age in victoria - no premium, and little say as to the destination, but more buyers in the market keep the prices up. The price we get on contract is at a premium to saleyard prices, but only about 15%. Average prices ("good" at the moment) are around $2.40 / kg liveweight, and the average weight of our 10 month old steers is between 250 and 300 kg. This is about the same price we were getting 10 years ago.

It seems to me that a lot of people are happy for the beef trade to take a hit to salve their own consciences. I wonder how they would feel if it were their own businesses or professions.

It also alarms me that we rate the humane treatment of animals in the last minute of their lives above desperate refugees who have braved risky sea voyages to try and escape persecution and torture. The same government that plans to "save" cattle wants to send people to malaysia, which is documented to have an appalling human rights reputation for refugees. Where do our priorities lie?

[geoffsta]

I don't know why they don't send inspectors over there, to ensure that everything is done humanely. Muslims have inspectors over here to make sure that the beast is killed in the fashion of their religion. Why can't Australia do the same thing. :confused013 After all it is our reputation at steak.

[pjs2]

Couldn't agree more, plus it would be good for my business :D. Unfortunately labour (availability and cost) and the seasonality of this type of market doesn't make it viable. In the north west there are a few abattoirs that have been shut for decades because it just wasn't viable to process the animals here. Also, as farmer_rob pointed out, there are so many different requirements from each market you just can't keep up.

Could that have been because they were operating with the live trade going on ? If the live trade stops does that make thier products more in demand ?
Hands up who would eat more meat( better cuts) if they could afford it. Why does everything have to be sold over seas for people (producers) to make a dollar. All the best meat ,seafood everything. Why is it that we have to make a million bucks in one day when we can make the same million in a week. Our food would be cheaper and fresher (try and buy good seafood at a good price in Brisbane or the Gold Coast) and I know I would buy more . We have a local (Australian) market to sell to but we dont. To lazy it's much easier to sell everything oveseas. If we kept most of our great produce here and downsized our export the price of our export would go up. We make our selves slaves to overseas buyers when we have the opion of making a good living from our own market place.

[farmer_rob]

Where is this pro-live export petition? I'll sign it.

[Scotty72]

So, if the MLA is to blame (there is now overwhelming evidence they did - and covered up) - sue them.

They let everyone down.

And, you cannot simply sell a sentient being then wash your hands to the torture which it seems, within your industry, was pretty well common knowledge.

If a farmer knows (or ought to have known) his beasts are being tortured by the buyer - DON'T SELL.

Simple.

Scott

[ApolloLXII]

Thanks Apollo I was trying to get across that this stuff effects all sorts of people.......not just the cattle industry .....it will effect us in the bush maybe more than those sitting in nice warm office jobbies....

I absolutely agree that there will be flow on effects from banning the live trade to Indonesia, no matter how long the ban is in place. I've also held the firm belief that the people in the "nice, warm office jobbies" need to get out of the office and actually go and take a look for themselves at how the decisions they make will effect, in this instance, the farmers and cattle producers and at least get their views before any decision is made. While the thrust behind the ban is the prevention of cruelty to animals, there is also a political element behind the decision in that the government must be seen to be doing something lest it lose voter support but that is of little comfort to farmers and cattle producers who now have to find an alternative means of finding money to pay for their ever present bills. There is definitely a case for some form of compensation in that regard.

The thing that I find really incredulous is that it took a report from the ABC to spark action over what has been occuring in some of these Indonesian abbatoirs, presumably, for quite a period of time. Why did not the Department of the Foreign Affairs and Trade make some kind of enquiry as to how livestock were going to be treated once they arrived in Indonesia? Probably because they just took the word of the Indonesians at face value or didn't think such an enquiry was worthy of being asked in the first place. Had they found out what the conditions in the abbatoirs were like before the original trade agreement for live cattle export was signed then none of this mess would probably not have occurred in the first place.

[macmich]

my last post on this thread
most of the trouble in this saga is probably caused by do gooders that see what they want to see and thoning else
the same as the tree huggers
they will climb trees get in fromnt of machinery tie themselves to machinery live up trees and whinge like hell that the chopping down of that tree is going to stuff the universe
nothing else is said about the millions of dollars spent by the loggers with growth and forrest managment that they undertake
the same as duck season you have these proffessional protesters and uni students protesting about the shooting of ducks while all the time breaking the law being on the wetlands
if you do not cut the duck numbers whats going to happen
our rice exports are stuffed we will have ducks running up bourke street in 50 years
and you will always have people that are not going to be satisfied with anything unless it suits them
its simple to fix this situation and measures are in place now to do it
and when its done and the animal is stunned and its throat slit and carved up to the cuts they want and put on the plates
the do gooders can get on with plotting some other way of trying to stuff another buisness or person
turn the clock back and protest about gay whale rights or something
i am not trying to put any one down in this post
but at the end of the day live exports are going to continue and everyone else will have something else to protest over
cheers macca
ps i seen on today tonight the mouse plauges in the rural areas and watched a bloke hit a mouse over the head and a few using baits the cruel mongrels

[Jules]

Rob, thanks for your commments in this thread, it's good to hear from a person actually involved in the livestock industry. Such individuals appear to be in the minority here.


...It seems to me that a lot of people are happy for the beef trade to take a hit to salve their own consciences. I wonder how they would feel if it were their own businesses or professions...

It does seem that way, doesn't it? So many people have taken a very strong stance to condemn an industry they don't understand. And when the farmers and their families go broke (because they are the ones who will ultimately suffer, regardless of where the responsibility for this really lies) the issue will have lost its immediacy and news-worthiness and the general public won't care. Unless of course it starts to affect them in terms of the quality and pricing of their steaks.


...It also alarms me that we rate the humane treatment of animals in the last minute of their lives above desperate refugees who have braved risky sea voyages to try and escape persecution and torture. The same government that plans to "save" cattle wants to send people to malaysia, which is documented to have an appalling human rights reputation for refugees. Where do our priorities lie?

Yes, interesting isn't it? What does that say about us as a nation?

[farmer_rob]

So, if the MLA is to blame (there is now overwhelming evidence they did - and covered up) - sue them.

They let everyone down.

And, you cannot simply sell a sentient being then wash your hands to the torture which it seems, within your industry, was pretty well common knowledge.

If a farmer knows (or ought to have known) his beasts are being tortured by the buyer - DON'T SELL.

Simple.

Scott

And what am i going to sue them for? Pain and distress? Failure to do their job? Taking my levy money and squandering it? Although the cost to the industry will be high, in the main the cost to the individual business such as mine is hard to quantify, and the coat of pursuing it very high.

I agree with you that you should not sell to a buyer knowing they will torture the animals. However, i disagree with 'ought to know'. The MLA ought to have known (and I also think they turned a wilful blind eye), but I can't see how I ought to know what happens to cattle I sell, when the processor is overseas and 3 buyers down the line. We have to rely on bodies such as MLA doing their job properly, yet we are getting punished when they don't.

(I do have the opportunity to vote for the MLA board, but each vote is based on the amount of levy paid. I am a small producer, and the proportion of levy paid vs others is such that I have a more meaningfull vote for the federal member of parliament than I do for the MLA board.)

The useless agriculture minister should be hauling the MLA over the coals, and getting his department to do what they are paid to.

[kiwi]

But you know now Rob....does this change your willingness to export cattle knowing that this treastment is going to occur at those particular plant ?

[Scotty72]

Rob, thanks for your commments in this thread, it's good to hear from a person actually involved in the livestock industry. Such individuals appear to be in the minority here.



It does seem that way, doesn't it? So many people have taken a very strong stance to condemn an industry they don't understand. And when the farmers and their families go broke (because they are the ones who will ultimately suffer, regardless of where the responsibility for this really lies) the issue will have lost its immediacy and news-worthiness and the general public won't care. Unless of course it starts to affect them in terms of the quality and pricing of their steaks.



Yes, interesting isn't it? What does that say about us as a nation?

Why is the view of someone with a vested financial interest more important?

They have even more reason to ignore the obvious? Less reason to be impartial.

Kinda like making Dracula's comments on security at the blood bank more important...

[Scotty72]

The MLA (perhaps others) are responsible for your losses. Sue them! Why do you want to punish me (the tax payer) for your loss?

Sue them, not us tax payers?

[farmer_rob]

But you know now Rob....does this change your willingness to export cattle knowing that this treastment is going to occur at those particular plant ?

I would be very wary if I had cattle going to Indonesia. I would be asking a lot of questions about who is buying them, what the end market is (ie supermarkets, butchers, restaurants, food processors), and what assurances were in place concerning basic welfare. I have actually been to feedlots in Victoria and NSW, and care about what happens with our cattle. I do rely on the fact that well-treated cattle are more profitable. Costs and profit do in the end have to drive the industry in its various guises.

BTW, as far as I can tell - and drawing on knowledge of what happens with our cattle - the Indonesian export trade is not "put them on a ship and unload them to an abattoir". It is more "put them on a ship, put them into a feedlot, feed them lots of feed until they weigh over 700 kg, send them to an abattoir". The feeding will be a minimum 3 months, and that is quite enough time for people to start changing things.

As has been pointed out, there are 100,000 australian-sourced animals on feed in Indonesia now - we as an industry and as a country have just given up any ability to really influence what happens with these animals, because all the signs are that the Indonesians are saying "we'll find another source of supply and you can go jump" rather than work to win back the ability to import the animals.

For comparison, Most cattle are slaughtered at 18 months for the Australian market. The Japanese are between 24 months and 36 months. A typical path for one of our animals sold at 9-12 months:

1) sold through saleyards, bought by a "backgrounder"
2) grown on for 6 months (from 300kg to 500kg) (normally in a paddock).
3) sent to a feedlot for 3 months (from 500kg to 700kg+) ($3/day for 90 days)
4) sent to an abattoir and then to a supermarket or butcher

The supermarkets buy at step 3, and cover the costs in 3) and 4). Feedlots often buy at step 3, and then sell the meet overseas after step 4.
Step 3 is not always undertaken in Victoria, but instead the cattle are "finished" (grown and fattened) in Step 2, taking more time. In Queensland and NSW, it is almost impossible to buy grass-finished beef in a supermarket.

The Japanese live export trade is more like:

1) sold directly to the exporter, shipped to Queensland
2) kept in quarantine for 4 weeks
3) shipped to japan
4) feedlotted in small groups (10 animals) for 360-720 days (Australia feedlots in groups of about 100)
5) Sent to an abattoir and sold via supermarkets etc.

We have also sold long-fed cattle to feedlots in NSW, trucked directly from farm to feedlot. It is over 12 months before these animals are sent to the abattoir after they have left our farm. (We receive feedback at that point about how they have performed.)

As an aside, the long-fed market is very high risk for the feedlot - the animals are expected to develop substantial fat marbling over the 360 days, but this is only guessable via genetics. The actual result is not clear until the carcass is assessed. At $3/day feeding, the feedlot is spending around $1100 on top of the $800 for the animal + abattoir costs before it knows how much the resultant meat is worth. Marblescore 6/7 means a profit, marblescore 5 means break-even and 4 a loss. Tough, stressed meat means a big loss.

[Duane Pipe]

Maybe the Australian market will be flooded with beef which might bring the prices down:confused013, lets hope

[Jules]

Why is the view of someone with a vested financial interest more important?

They have even more reason to ignore the obvious? Less reason to be impartial...

You think we'd be better served by listening only to people who know nothing about the industry other than what they've heard in the media in recent days? How many of those people even gave the livestock industry a single thought before that segment aired?


Kinda like making Dracula's comments on security at the blood bank more important...

LOL. First you compare graziers to tobacco farmers and casino operators (such valuable contributors to society) and now vampires. Now if someone would just mention Nazis, this thread would be complete.

[mandab99]

I happily signed the petition and then posted the link on my Facebook to encourage others to do so too. Its disgusting and no living thing deserves that type of pain and misery, there will never be a good enough reason.....

[ving]

Rob, thanks for your commments in this thread, it's good to hear from a person actually involved in the livestock industry. Such individuals appear to be in the minority here.
+1 TO THAT!

its al to easy for us city dwellers to sit in out ivory towers and tell the world how it should be when the only contact we have with cows is in woolworths. we dont tend to take in to account the livelyhood of the people out on the land that our decisions effect. :)

[ving]

LOL. First you compare graziers to tobacco farmers and casino operators (such valuable contributors to society) and now vampires. Now if someone would just mention Nazis, this thread would be complete.lol, much earlier he compared it to buying a knife and taking it overseas to stab someone! :p

[terry.langham]

How long til we get to see a 4corners episode featuring starving cattle in Australia, on farms that can no longer afford to feed them, as they haven't been able to sell cattle for some time. Who will be responsible then?

[Jules]

lol, much earlier he compared it to buying a knife and taking it overseas to stab someone! :p

Yet I doubt he would subscribe to the theory that teachers should be held accountable for any criminal acts perpetrated by their former students after graduation.

[Art Vandelay]

What amuses me, (saddens me really) is every man and his dog have come out of the woodwork condemning the indonesians over the way they slaughter their animals, yet every day right here in our own back yard much worse treatment of animals occurs. Yet all those same people conveniently turn a blind eye. Those unfortunate enough to speak up get labelled as a racist, and condemmed for not having respect for our traditional land owners right to hunt and deal with endangered Marine Turtles and Dugongs as they please.

But we're happy to blast the Indonesians on every newspaper and TV for their way of doing things and justify our own as OK ??

Besides my own travels & observations, I sit on 2 local advisory committees, 1 for QLD fisheries & the other for the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority. From the top right down to the general public these issues are continually swept under the carpet for the sake of not rocking the boat.

Here's a video (*graphic*) of how a marine turtle is prepared, starting by cutting it's flippers off while still alive. Those that arent butchered on the spot are left alive and turned upside down further up the beach out of the water so they cant escape. Often for 3 or 4 days.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQKEh4HPnhI


And for the record, I'm no wowser, I'm a realist, often preparing fish, chooks, pigs & help with the odd beast in the most humane way possible for our own consumption.

[farmer_rob]

The MLA (perhaps others) are responsible for your losses. Sue them! Why do you want to punish me (the tax payer) for your loss?

Sue them, not us tax payers?

No, the MLA are not responsible for my losses. They are responsible for failing to enforce their own policies, or properly supervise a segment of the live export trade - so what do I sue them for? Doing a bad job? (If that were the case, Telstra would be the first ones in my sights.)

If compensation is due it is the government that owes it - because it is not the MLA that stopped the live trade, it is the Australian Government (on the somewhat spurious grounds of a TV report - no independent verification, no investigation, no real assessment of the scale of the cruelty. If only 4 corners could get them to react as quickly on other humanitarian failures, the world would be a much better place.) Perhaps the government could sue - it would be directly having to take action and pay out. Me, I just lose a market, and get lower prices for my cattle.

In my view, the Government, having sat on its hands for years, suddenly sees it as a vote loser and says "No, you can't do it anymore" - even though no Australian Laws have been broken. No consideration, planning, forethought, warning, anything. It is typical of the current government - do something to avoid losing votes without thinking of the consequences or any semblance of planning. (I could bring up numerous examples, but we'd start to get waaayyy off-topic, and one controversial subject per thread is enough:eek:)

BTW, I don't see my view as "more important" because of my financial interest. However, being involved in the industry, and being affected by it more directly financially, IMO, gives me an opportunity to give a different perspective. I would hope that I am able to add to people's knowledge on the issue, and allow them to form (or re-form) an opinion from a broader base.

( NB currently, the taxpayer - via the government - is not in fact giving any compensation at present, so the taxpayer is not financially involved.)

[farmer_rob]

Art - valid point IMO. Personally, I believe an animal should be dead before any dismemberment occurs, and the method of death should be as quick and painless as possible.

[Scotty72]

Anyway, Ving, Jules and others are obviuosly out of sensible ideas and have resorted to snide mis-representations and personal smears and petty labelling.

And, yes, you used the N word first = you lose.

If you are going to deliberately mis-represent others opinions, then their is no point.

Perhaps, it is a way of stifling all contrary opinion.

Scotty

PS. When your (the royal you) kids leave school unable to say a sentence without using the F word, can't give change of $10 without using the computerised register and, can't spell 'cat'... Who do you immediately want to blame for your shortcomings as a parent? The teachers.

Teen pregnancy = they should teach about morals / contraception schools
P-plater wraps car around tree = why don't schools teach kids to drive responsibly
Teen girl gets stalked on Facebook = why doesn't the school monitor my kid's computer use

the list of parental short-comings that you blame teachers for is nearly end-less.

But, hey, farmers should be immune from all responsibility and criticism.

[ving]

oh no scotty. I feel sorry for teachers and often wonder why anyone would want to be one these days. it seems over the years they have had all rights stripped and have become the scapegoat for any bad behavior in youth... teachers cant even point at disruptive kids without getting into some sort of trouble these days. :(

but...

torturing cattle = bad
destroying farmers livelyhood because of what some indonesian meathouse has done also = bad

bad + bad does not = good

[Jules]

I didn't say I subscibe to that theory about teachers Scotty and in fact, I do not. The accountability for a child lies with the parents, until said child is an adult, then they should be held responsible for themselves.

I was brought up to believe that every individual is responsible for their own actions. And so, in this matter, I believe that the ones responsible for the cruelty to those cattle are those Indonesians in those slaughterhouses. Yet apparently, it's easier to blame Australian farmers who were three, four, five or more steps back in the chain and in many cases couldn't have know where their cattle were going. Doesn't make sense to me to blame them, but not level any blame at the Indonesians.

And yes Scotty, you're perfectly right - I did in fact invoke Godwin's Law myself!

[kiwi]

the only point to me seems to be should we be exporting live cattle to those slaughterhouses with everyone including the farmers now knowing what they are like. its not a blame game.

pretty simple proposition.

[farmer_rob]

Scotty, don't get stuck into teachers:D - they do a wonderful job. Much betteer than us farmers.
(You know the definition of a succesful farmer? One who's wife has a job:D. My wife is a teacher.:th3:).

BTW, I think farmers should be criticised for what they do and have control of - if appropriate. However, the issue here is what someone else does.

[farmer_rob]

the only point to me seems to be should we be exporting live cattle to those slaughterhouses with everyone including the farmers now knowing what they are like. its not a blame game.

pretty simple proposition.

Simplistic answer - yes.

However, is it all indonesian abattoirs that demonstrate such cruelty? The animal rights advocates want to ban live animal exports period. (The woman who took the initial footage doesn't eat beef at all - she is hardly an unbiased observer.) The animal rights advocates are not going to say "oh there are good abattoirs too". Instead they will use the worst footage of the worst abattoirs, as leverage for their overall goals.

IMO, the right actions are to suspend exports for 2 weeks, to immediately send an independant team to rate the abattoirs, decide if there are any decent abattoirs and then make a decision. Instead, there has been a knee-jerk reaction that has unrecognised and unsatisfactory consequences.

[Tannin]

However, is it all indonesian abattoirs that demonstrate such cruelty?.

Yes.

Watch the Four Corners episode (http://www.abc.net.au/iview/#/view/775504).

The investigative team was able to get permission to visit 11 slaughterhouses. Every single one of those was using cruel slaughter methods amounting to torture. All eleven were much the same as each other. 11 out of 11 seems like a pretty fair sampling to me.

Are there, somewhere in Indonesia, slaughterhouses that are not so bad? One would hope so. But when you get permission to visit 11 different ones, and they [b]all[b] torture cattle to death using truly sickening methods, you have to ask the question ..... how much worse are the ones they didn't get permission to visit?

No live exports to any facility that isn't inspected and certified. That has to be the policy. No exceptions. None. The faster the live exporters get their bums into gear and start certifying whatever facilities are doing the right thing, the faster they can start selling their cattle overseas again. I would expect the relevant federal departments to assist in any way possible with this. That is their job. Not that they have been any good at doing their job so far, but sooner or later they have to get on the ball. Up to now, the federal departments have mostly been busy helping with the lies and the coverups, it seems.

[Tannin]

The thing that I find really incredulous is that it took a report from the ABC to spark action over what has been occuring in some of these Indonesian abbatoirs, presumably, for quite a period of time. Why did not the Department of the Foreign Affairs and Trade make some kind of enquiry as to how livestock were going to be treated once they arrived in Indonesia? Probably because they just took the word of the Indonesians at face value or didn't think such an enquiry was worthy of being asked in the first place. Had they found out what the conditions in the abbatoirs were like before the original trade agreement for live cattle export was signed then none of this mess would probably not have occurred in the first place.

You are dreaming if you think that no-one knew. Of course people knew. But the industry didn't want the news getting out because it would cost them money. It's cheaper to torture animals than stop it. And the department didn't want to know because their job is to increase trade. They don't care how or what - they are happy to sell weapons to dodgy dictators and uranium to India (which makes nuclear weapons with uranium), why on earth would they do anything other than turn a blind eye when it's only animals that are being harmed? And the minister (current one ands the previous conservative one - same difference) didn't want to annoy the farmers and get bad publicity. So he (the minister) and the department, and the previous ministers, all followed the line of lease resistance - say as little as possible, pretend that you don't know, and write a memo now and then so that if the manure does hit the fan, you can pretend that you were trying to do something about it.

[ving]

within the few few minutes of the 4 corners clip we see where the problem is... and this is before we see the infamous slaughter house... it would seem that this is a country where refrigeration is not the norm.

damn third world countries! blow them all up... you would think that if they dont have a stun gun (and what abattoir in its right mind wouldnt hey!) they would at least get the cow drunk so it would be easy to handle and wouldnt feel anything.... :rolleyes:

[farmer_rob]

Tannin, I understand the point you are making. However, 4 corners is still an investigative journalism program that has been led into this by a group that is determined to ban live exports (not just live exports to inhumane abattoirs, or live exports to indonesia - all live exports). The sampling is not random, regardless of what 4corners say or how many abattoirs they checked. Given the impact of what is occurring, I think the government should be making more considered moves that are based on it's investigations - not just 1 TV program - and trying to get the best result for everyone.

Sadly, it does suggest that the abattoirs do not think it is unacceptable practice. And so, unfortunately, I suspect you are right - that no indonesian abattoir really meets the standards that we should be expecting. But we have just given up the opportunity to have any influence over their practices.

We have cut off any option to manage whatever happens to the 100,000 australian-sourced animals currently in Indonesia. They have a right to be treated humanely, not just forgotten.

We have ended up with thousands of cattle in quarantine and export feedlots ready to go in northern Australia. These need to be fed, watered and looked after. Their welfare is not easily dismissed. (Yes, those who own them have that responsibility, but to be suddenly dropped into this situation is disruptive.) The average animal eats 2.2% of its bodyweight in dry matter per day. For a 500 kg animal, this is 11 kg + moisture content. 1000 animals on feed means 11+ tonnes of feed per day. Current hay prices are around $300-$400/tonne, so to feed 1000 animals is about $5000 per day (hay is about 70% dry matter) - it is not as if there are large empty paddocks near the northern terminals that can just be pressed into service.

They can't go back to the farms they came from. Part of the timing for selling cattle is that the land needs time to recover and to grow grass again. Most farmers could not take the animals back because they would be overstocked.

Trucking the animals from Port Hedland or Darwin to eastern seaboard markets is (IMO) worse than putting them on a ship. At least on a ship they have access to feed and water. (We expect cattle to lose 10% of bodyweight in a 1000km truck journey following industry best practice. For the Japanese export trade, it is expected the cattle will lose 10% on the ship over 14 days.) The less time off feed, the better condition the cattle are in. If they are too long off feed, the gut bacteria die and the animals take much longer to get going again.

No, animal cruelty is not acceptable, but the ill-thought out and knee-jerk reaction of the government actively condemns 100,000 animals to cruel treatment in Indonesia and further thousands of animals to ill treatment in Australia.

Unfortunately, I think that there are some in the supply chain and within the MLA who have turned a blind eye, and this is reprehensible. But they are getting away with it, and so have successive agriculture ministers. The governments actions just allow them to wash their hands of it.

Perhaps as a farmer I am easily annoyed, but it seems to me that the government pays lip service to farming and treats us like mushrooms. It seems to me they do not shy away from annoying me (as opposed to
...didn't want to annoy the farmers and get bad publicity...) I think the government are just terrified of making a decision where they have to show leadership and live with the consequences, and I don't think the live export disaster is an exception.

[farmer_rob]

within the few few minutes of the 4 corners clip we see where the problem is... and this is before we see the infamous slaughter house... it would seem that this is a country where refrigeration is not the norm.

damn third world countries! blow them all up... you would think that if they dont have a stun gun (and what abattoir in its right mind wouldnt hey!) they would at least get the cow drunk so it would be easy to handle and wouldnt feel anything.... :rolleyes:

We had a drunk cow once (it ate grape must - what is left over after pressing out the wine from a red wine fermentation) - it was not easy to handle. It couldn't stand up - it's legs kept going in all directions:eek:. It recovered after a day - water, hay and "bed rest" - but I don't know if it had a hangover!

[ving]

a quick search on the indonesian yellow pages finds that there arent 11 abattoirs working in that country... there are 36... with phone numbers (probably some remote ones without?)

I wonder if the 11 chosen were just the bad ones... i just wonder.:confused013
I guess it does make sense that if you want to show the indonesia doens treat the cattle right that you pick the 11 worst... but you get that when you have an agenda.

of course i am probably wrong, but i am just putting it out there

http://www.yellowpages.co.id/en/search?keys=abattoir&location=All+Cities&op=Search#main

[Tannin]

Could be Ving. But to go in there and film, they had to get permission. Strikes me that the easiest ones to get permission to make films in would probably be the best ones, not the worst ones.

But it really doesn't matter: whether it's just these 11 or all 200-odd slaughterhouses in Indonesia, the torture has to stop. No ifs, no buts, we cannot tolerate deliberate torture of these animals. And in reality, there are probably some facilities over there that do it pretty well. All we need to do is find out which ones they are, document that, and restart exports to certified facilities only. If that proves impossible, then the Indonesians will just have to stop torturing cattle across the board - and that would be a very good outcome.

[geoffsta]

well... at least with the banning of cattle they can get back to their usual diet of, Dog, cat and monkey, with a bit of horse thrown in as well.
Toss the coin. :confused013

[Tannin]

Rob, let's not pretend that all cattle are suddenly unsaleable.

The reality is that Indonesia only accounts for a part of beef production. We ca still ship live cattle to many other parts of the world; we can consume the meat on the domestic market; or we can delay the sale of stock. None of these will account for all of the stock, but in combination they can do a lot.

I seldom eat meat, but I'll do my bit and put my hand up to buy a roast or two specially if farmers want to organise a one-off sale of some of the cattle they were going to export to be tortured to death. I reckon most Australians would do the same.

And the point is it doesn't matter if the people who were making money out of selling cattle to be tortured to death lose some money or not. That practice is simply unacceptable under any circumstances. We can't help the 100,00 animals in Indonesia. Short of going to war, there is nothing we can do about them. But we can make sure that the cruelty goes no further by stopping all exports of livestock until the Indonesians decide to join the human race and enforce basic civilised standards on their processing facilities. If they want to buy our meat - and they do, we know that - then they will do it.

[Scotty72]

It doesn't matter if the ABC visited:

a) the worst
b) the best (why did the others not allow them in? hiding something?)
c) random

slaughterhouses.

I am appalled at the torture of animals. And I am appalled at the Australians who knew it was happening but, to save their wallets, chose to ignore the suffering.

We can't let it continue just to save jobs... Cigarette companies employ people, they have shareholders etc. So, do we ignore the appalling loss of life just to keep these people in the money.

Indonesian people smugglers employ crew for their boats: why don't we ignore that trade so that the crews can have a livelihood?

However: Once each slaughterhouse is able to prove it is maintaining a very high standard then, as far as I am concerned, we can resume.

I feel most Australians feel this way. Of course, some extreme activists support every cause.

Scotty

[ving]

Could be Ving. But to go in there and film, they had to get permission. Strikes me that the easiest ones to get permission to make films in would probably be the best ones, not the worst ones.

But it really doesn't matter: whether it's just these 11 or all 200-odd slaughterhouses in Indonesia, the torture has to stop. No ifs, no buts, we cannot tolerate deliberate torture of these animals. And in reality, there are probably some facilities over there that do it pretty well. All we need to do is find out which ones they are, document that, and restart exports to certified facilities only. If that proves impossible, then the Indonesians will just have to stop torturing cattle across the board - and that would be a very good outcome.true, torture needs to stop! I think a country wide ban is not the way to go... what if they specifically targeted the 11 bad ones and didnt bother with the 200 good ones just for the sake of a good story or to get thier agenda across? does the legal system here jail entire towns is one resident is found guilty of murder?

maybe a country wide abattoir study needs to be done, certification needs to be introduced? maybe we need to ban only those that are inhumane?

once again, just putting it out there.

...cause I'd hate to see those who are NOT doing wrong to suffer

[Scotty72]

true, torture needs to stop! I think a country wide ban is not the way to go... what if they specifically targeted the 11 bad ones and didnt bother with the 200 good ones just for the sake of a good story or to get thier agenda across? does the legal system here jail entire towns is one resident is found guilty of murder?


Well, Just because a few people may want to smuggle prohibited items onto a plane, we are ALL subject to draconian restrictions (searches, scans etc) - we are made to prove we are not up to no good. That is not unreasonable.

Neither is it unreasonable to suggest that, BEFORE we export one more animal, every slaughterhouse should prove they are up to treating them humanely.

[ving]

you could have quoted the rest of my post where i suggested certification, etc...:p

[ving]

b) the best (why did the others not allow them in? hiding something?)
Scottymaybe they arent... maybe the reporter only targeted the worst?

it would seem reasonable for someone who is against killing and eating animals to report a worst case scenario doesnt it? what better way to get their point across? ;)

[Scotty72]

maybe they arent... maybe the reporter only targeted the worst?

it would seem reasonable for someone who is against killing and eating animals to report a worst case scenario doesnt it? what better way to get their point across? ;)

It is just as reasonable to assume the operators who did not allow the ABC crew to film, had something to hide by not allowing them in.

[ricstew]

Thank you Farmer Rob for explaining this far better than I can.........did you know that aprox 2/3 of the farmers that live in our region are over the age of 60, never completed school ( usually left just before high school age ) and are close to illiterate. They do not live on mega acreage with huge homesteads. They are deeply in debt. They have coped with years of drought and the suicide rates have soared :( Their children and grandchildren don't want to farm....I wonder why :(

[farmer_rob]

Rob, let's not pretend that all cattle are suddenly unsaleable.


That is certainly true - but the question is where? The reality is that these cattle are bred for a specific market. They have value to that market, but not to other markets. (I currently breed Angus/Wagyu cross cattle - I get good money from people who want this mixture, but it is a small market - I drop $200/head if I sell them through a normal beef market.)

At the same time, the cost of trucking them from where they are now to markets in NSW, QLD or Vic is up to $200/hd - take a $1000 animal, drop $200 because it is in the wrong market and a further $200 for getting it there - that is a lot of profit gone immediately. There are also logistical problems - you can only use B-double trucks in Victoria (and I think NSW) - so you need more trucks than in the NT.

I know you don't care that those "who sell into torture... lose money", but they are not necessarily the ones who are losing money. It is a long supply chain, and changing it around for a large quantity of animals is problematic.



The reality is that Indonesia only accounts for a part of beef production. We ca still ship live cattle to many other parts of the world; we can consume the meat on the domestic market; or we can delay the sale of stock. None of these will account for all of the stock, but in combination they can do a lot.

I seldom eat meat, but I'll do my bit and put my hand up to buy a roast or two specially if farmers want to organise a one-off sale of some of the cattle they were going to export to be tortured to death. I reckon most Australians would do the same.

And the point is it doesn't matter if the people who were making money out of selling cattle to be tortured to death lose some money or not. That practice is simply unacceptable under any circumstances. We can't help the 100,00 animals in Indonesia. Short of going to war, there is nothing we can do about them. But we can make sure that the cruelty goes no further by stopping all exports of livestock until the Indonesians decide to join the human race and enforce basic civilised standards on their processing facilities. If they want to buy our meat - and they do, we know that - then they will do it.

Sadly, I think you will find there are others that will step in and take the trade, and that will be that. (Before the BSE issue in the USA, the Japanese market was split largely between Australia and the US. When US beef was banned, Australia had all of a smaller market. When US beef was allowed back, it did not regain the same market share - even of the smaller market. Recent figures are about 60% Australian, 30% US, 10% local.)

The majority of Australian beef is exported. Some markets will not take animals unless they are live. We will effectively lose the Indonesian market through the current actions.

Some may say this is OK - it is wrong to sell into cruelty. However, as I have stated earlier, I think there are better ways than abandoning the market at the start.

[Sezzy]

It is just as reasonable to assume the operators who did not allow the ABC crew to film, had something to hide by not allowing them in.

Would you let a stranger into your house with a camera, even if you didn't have something to hide? I know I wouldn't...

edit: I don't care enough to try and explain it to those who just don't understand or care...as long as the cows are okay - that's the main thing...don't worry about the farmers, they'll be right, right?

[Scotty72]

Would you let a stranger into your house with a camera, even if you didn't have something to hide? I know I wouldn't...

edit: I don't care enough to try and explain it to those who just don't understand or care...as long as the cows are okay - that's the main thing...don't worry about the farmers, they'll be right, right?

So, it is ok to have deathly suspicions about a journalist trying to uncover a truth; but we must never suspect those attempting to cover it up?

What a deliciously warped logic?

[Sezzy]

So, it is ok to have deathly suspicions about a journalist trying to uncover a truth; but we must never suspect those attempting to cover it up?

What a deliciously warped logic?

You can twist it to whatever suits you, as you've done with everything else I've said. You win...

Making assumptions usually ends badly for most people, and so does a one eyed perspective.

[Scotty72]

A good set of numbers to support the notion that the MLA cares far less about the welfare of animals than it does manipulating the public into thinking the MLA cares about the welfare of animals.

For cattle exported alive (current yearly funding)

$ spent on animal welfare $186,000

$ spent on Community Concern Campaign (ie propaganda to give the perception of animal welfare) $ 725,000
$ spent on marketing / market expansion $933,000

(source Beef Levy Review, 2009)

So, there is about 4x as much spent on trying to convince the public that animals are treated well than there is actually treating them well.
About 5x as much (again) is spent on marketing campaigns.

Where does the cattle industry's real priorities really lie?
Scotty

[ving]

It is just as reasonable to assume the operators who did not allow the ABC crew to film, had something to hide by not allowing them in.and thats just my point... we just dont know do we. it could very well be either way but youseem to be taking sides without all the information.

yes it hurts ones backside sitting on a fence but its better than jumping to conclusions without having all the information ;)

[ving]

What a deliciously warped logic?delicious cause its beef right? ;)

[Scotty72]

delicious cause its beef right? ;)

I agree: the best cows come with a side salad but, no need to treat them cruelly.

[farmer_rob]

...
Where does the cattle industry's real priorities really lie?...

Don't tar me with the brush of the MLA. I am part of the cattle industry, and I think the MLA's priorities are wrong.

[Wilky]

Just something that comes to mind, somebody kills our cattle in the wrong way and it's headlines all the way, yet when our kids get killed in a war overseas it's hardly headlines. Me thinks there is something really wrong there.

[wmphoto]

So, there is about 4x as much spent on trying to convince the public that animals are treated well than there is actually treating them well.
That's good except the MLA aren't responsible for monitoring animal welfare. There are other bodies (such as Ausmeat) who audit farms and animal welfare, MLA are the marketing and research arm of the industry. Statistics can be used in many ways to manipulate the truth.


Farmer rob ..... Where's the petition to ban grapes you heathen? :D

[farmer_rob]

Just something that comes to mind, somebody kills our cattle in the wrong way and it's headlines all the way, yet when our kids get killed in a war overseas it's hardly headlines. Me thinks there is something really wrong there.

I do think our sense of perspective is distorted. However, recent deaths in afghanistan are headline news - at least on the ABC.

[hawko02]

Just posting this as a copy of a letter. I didn't know how to include the link without including and involving other people who sent it- so i copied and pasted it
For anyone who is interested in what Four Corners chose not to share. It is a big, sad and terrible thing to realise this could happen.
I abhore the cruelty as every feeling person would and should and yes the back yard abbatoirs must be condemned - but a knee jerk reaction and a TOTAL ban is not the answer. I thought I should post this so members could get some perspective and know that there are good people out there working for the good of the industry and should be supported. i would never tell you what you should think about the situation as people are allowed to have their own opinions and i respect that right. here is the letter. Thanks . Kathy

Letter to Four Corners - The other side of the story

Dear Sir,
I must introduce myself. My name is Scot Braithwaite and my life has basically revolved around live export since I was 10 years old. I was unloading cattle boats in Malaysia at the age of 13. I have worked for all the major cattle companies including as a Head Stockman in the Northern
Territory. I have a degree in economics from the Queensland University and I personally have sold more than 1.5 million head of cattle int...o Indonesia since 1991. I am presently employed as the marketing manager for Wellard rural exports. I am writing to you after the Monday program to say that although I abhor the treatment of the animals shown in the video, your one sided approach to the subject and the possible effect of
that of a ban on live exports is too big a price to pay for a report based on the evidence of an organization that’s charter is to shut us down. I have the following points to make. I would like to have the same time as those who denigrated my life to show you the other side of our industry. To show you what is really going on. In Australia there used to be thing about “A fair Go”. You have gone with images provided by one person followed up by your investigative journalist who spent a week in Indonesia. Your report makes out that close to 100% of Australian cattle are treated as was shown on TV.

1. The ship that appears in the footage “for less than 30 seconds” is a vessel that cost tens of millions of dollars to build. We have had 3 separate media groups sail with this ship and it can in no uncertain terms be described as best in class. The Wellard group has another 3 vessels of the same standard with another 2 being built in China. This is a total investment of 400 million dollars to ensure that livestock exports from Australia are undertaken at the utmost levels of
cow comfort and animal welfare.

2. The feedlot that was filmed was given a 10 second view. This feedlot is without a doubt world class. Your viewers should have at least had the opportunity to view large numbers of cattle eating and sleeping comfortably in a fantastic facility. This company has in addition moved to kill all his cattle through stunning system that he has control of. This owner has spent 20 years of his life in the industry, has built his business from nothing, has done all that is required of him from an animal welfare point of view yet your reporter makes no mention of these things.

3. Within A 3 HOUR DRIVE OR a 15 Minute helicopter there are another 3 world class facilities. All three feedlots including the one filmed, are at, or better than, what can be found in Australia. The cattle being fed, and the ration being fed, leads to a lot less animal health issues then a similar size operation in Australia. One of these facilities is operated and owned by a large Australian pastoral house. They had no mention in your supposed unbiased report. The operation is run by a North Queensland man who, through His absolute dedication to excellence has built a feedlot and slaughtering system that his company, the industry and himself can be very proud of. The system is closed, all the cattle are already killed through their own abattoir. They import 20 to 25000 cattle year. They
have been doing this for at least 5 years. Why should they be shut down? For what reason could anyone justify closing this operation down, especially without even bothering to look at what goes on.

4. The other world class feedlots that could have been investigated within a 3 hour ride in the car are owned by a large publicly listed Indonesian company. In all, they have on feed 50,000 cattle and import about 120,000 cattle a year. They have recently built an abattoir( the one that was briefly shown on the program) They built this 2 years ago as they knew that modern methods must come to Indonesia and they were willing to make the investment to make it happen. The total investment from these 3 feedlotters alone in infrastructure and stock is over 100
million dollars. Add to that the hundreds of millions that Wellard have recently invested in ships and do you really believe that these people would leave the final product to a murderous bastard with a blunt knife? They not only have tried to ensure the welfare of the animal but have made investments to make the changes all along the chain. These people deserve to have their side of the story heard. If the system is not perfect, and it isn’t, they have the wherewithal and the incentive to make it happen in a very short time.

These 3 importers who have shown a commitment to everything good about animal production, handle 45 % of total imports. The other major issue that was not covered was the social responsibility that all feedlotters in Indonesia practice. Their operations are in relatively isolated poor areas; the feedlots provide employment opportunity, advancement through effort, and a market for thousands of tons of
feedstuffs grown for the cattle. My understanding is that 8000 people are directly employed by the feedlots and over 1000000 people are reliant on the regular income made from supplying corn silage and other feedstuffs. This is not made up, it is fact. It can be easily checked. I will bet my 1000000 farmers against the 1000000 signatures on the ban order. It is very easy to sit in your comfortable chair and criticize but is it really worth the human cost to ban something that can be fixed and fixed reasonable quickly?

That is Sumatra.

In JKT there is the largest privately owned abattoir that kills about 4 to 6000 heads a month. It is a well run facility that has no welfare issues. In addition it was working on getting a stun system in place well before the 4 corners report. No photos from here, yet this is another who has been doing the right thing and who will lose his business if the trade is banned.
The largest Importer in to Jakarta, has also built a slaughter facility in the past 12 months. It has not been commissioned yet but can be made ready within a month. They also have a private bone to pick with the program. AS was not reported in the show, abattoirs in Indonesia are
operated by any number of individual ‘Wholesalers”. They control the space and the manpower kills their number for the night and then hand over to the next team. In any one night 8 to 10 separate operators can be using the same facility. In the case of the footage of the head slapping the camera panned to the cattle waiting and the tags of AA, Newcastle Waters and his company were made very prominent. Yes, they were there but the team that handled was different to one being filmed. They protest, that their crews are well trained, no head slapping occurs and very large and sharp knives are used to ensure a bloody but quick end. I have no reason to doubt them because I have seen a lot of their cattle handled at point of slaughter and their crews are well trained with immediate results. Where can their case be heard?

I have watched literally thousands of cattle slaughtered in the boxes in Indonesia. Yes there are problems, as there are at every point of slaughter on every type of animal in the world, but 98% of the cattle I watched killed was quick and without fuss. Why is there not one shot of what happens 98% of the time? The shots of outright cruelty are totally unacceptable and the slaughter of cattle is still gruesome and confronting but is not as prevalent as portrayed in your report. Yes it does some times happen but it is the exception not the rule. And we are already
taking steps to improve the system and we have the ability to ensure all animals are stunned in a very short time.

Yes there are a couple of operators who in the short term will not be able to handle the new way. But they will be dropped, no commitment to stunning, no supply. No negotiation. There are also a number of operators privately owned who were, to all intents and purposes, doing
the right thing. They were asked to supply through the boxes and they have. They will be asked to only supply though a stunning FACILITY and they will. They have far too much invested in the whole industry over many years to not do as we ask.

I am asking for a fair go. You have been expertly manipulated. Hear the actual other side of the story, let the Australian public see both sides. I am happy to make all the arrangements. This is too important to let sit with the images you portrayed on Monday without recourse.

Scot Braithwaite

[Mark L]

That's good except the MLA aren't responsible for monitoring animal welfare. There are other bodies (such as Ausmeat) who audit farms and animal welfare, MLA are the marketing and research arm of the industry. :D

Seems they think they have a roll to play in animal welfare http://www.liveexportcare.com.au/
Quoting from the link, "As we’ve always said, if any evidence of such brutality had been witnessed, MLA would have acted swiftly to bring it to a halt. Industry will continue to work to bring facilities to international standards and improve and assure animal welfare."

[Mark L]

And Kathy, if 4 Corners reply to Scot's letter, I hope we see that also.
Thank you for posting it nonetheless.

[Tannin]

And we are already taking steps to improve the system and we have the ability to ensure all animals are stunned in a very short time.

Yes there are a couple of operators who in the short term will not be able to handle the new way. But they will be dropped, no commitment to stunning, no supply. No negotiation.

Why am I having difficulty believing this?

I'll tell you why - because the industry has had years to get it right, and has utterly failed. We have all see the proof with our own eyes.

Sorry, but the industry has an appalling record of unmitigated failure to care for the animals it exports in any decent way.

If I could believe that promise - "but they will be dropped, no commitment to stunning, no supply. No negotiation" then I would support the industry 100%. Absolutely all the way with you on that. It's pretty much what I've been saying all along.

But I can't believe it. Neither can anyone else.

Over and over and over again, the live export industry has failed, it has lied, it has covered up the truth. We know that. We have seen the proof.

Sorry. No-one in their right mind would trust this industry. Independent verification is required. We, the public, need someone to check on this stuff that doesn't have a terrible record of lies, cover-ups and evasions. The live export industry cannot be trusted to police itself.

[ving]

I am just as likely to believe the 4corners report as the response. Both have versions of the truth both with vested intrests both biased...

The question, whats th truth? Will we ever know?

Sent from my TR718D

[Scotty72]

Just something that comes to mind, somebody kills our cattle in the wrong way and it's headlines all the way, yet when our kids get killed in a war overseas it's hardly headlines. Me thinks there is something really wrong there.

It is madness that our military is there. That, I think is a large reason the media don't give attention any more.

If the Aussie public thought this a 'noble' war, I think there would be far more respectful attention.

I was saddened to see the most recent funeral service (the chopper pilot, I think). Not so much the media coverage (but, our media coverage is pathetic on most things) - which was not great, not even the politicians as they tried to 'out-grieve' each other (I wish they would stay away).

What was truly sad was that the speakers at the service had nothing of substance to say about our soldier's sacrifice. Where, in wars past, there were speeches that focused on duty, service, a noble cause, the fight for freedom etc. This one seemed to focus mostly on how he was a good bloke, a great mate and a bit of a larikin.

Whilst he no doubt was a great bloke: it struck me how the speakers could no longer find nobility in the war. But, like a 17 year old who kills himself in a car wreck before he could really achieve anything in life, our soldiers seem to have little to be said about them other than they are good blokes.

Don't get me wrong. I respect our military completely; when they fall, they ought to get full honours. I only wish that at their funerals, there was more to say about the justness of their battles, the honour of the sacrifice, that their death helped make Earth a better place. But, many people are wondering, what the hell are our troops even there for.

I think the reason they don't get the attention / respect they deserve is because our politicians have put them in a battle fewer and fewer people believe in. For that, our politicians should be condemned. But, not our military.

Having said all that, the cows still deserve humane treatment.

Scotty

[Scotty72]

That's good except the MLA aren't responsible for monitoring animal welfare. There are other bodies (such as Ausmeat) who audit farms and animal welfare, MLA are the marketing and research arm of the industry. Statistics can be used in many ways to manipulate the truth.


Farmer rob ..... Where's the petition to ban grapes you heathen? :D

Well, if that is the case, there seems to be a lot of duck-shoving going on!

I guess that is public policy 101: set up a whole system of over-lapping agencies, industry groups etc. who continuously pass the buck around in circles.

Scotty

[Chilli]

I am surprised at the comments on the fact that it was perhaps only 11 out of 200 abatoirs. Indonesia has a psyche of animal sacrifice . I am feeling very sorry for our farmers indeed, but when and how do we put a stop to this. We need to say ENOUGH.

Warning graphic images..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m5fB5uGnLc

[ving]

yeah you indonesians out there! stop being indonesian! your culture and traditions are weird! be american like everyone else! :rolleyes:
(btw that was sarcasm)
dont you know your cows just want to sing and dance in the streets just like everyone else!!!!
(warning! very er.... graffik vid!)

pr5eeaknirQ

[Scotty72]

yeah you indonesians out there! stop being indonesian! your culture and traditions are weird! be american like everyone else! :rolleyes:
(btw that was sarcasm)
dont you know your cows just want to sing and dance in the streets just like everyone else!!!!
(warning! very er.... graffik vid!)

pr5eeaknirQ

I don't think that was Chilli's point.

There are many cultural practices we should not endorse

Female genitle mutilation springs to mind as an eg.

We may accept it is none of our business (even then, I am not entirely comfortable) what they do in their own countries but, I hope you don't think we should sell them the knives with which to do it.

Scotty

[Chilli]

Ving, would your avatar like to go out with my avatar....LOL

[ving]

My avatar is both free and avaliable ;)
On that note, there are at least four regulars here with cow avatars... cows rule.

Sent from my TR718D

[Scotty72]

There is hope for our bovine bretheran yet:


http://youtu.be/-K48RdAEREg

[farmer_rob]

I have been mulling over this issue for the past couple of days, especially following Kathy's copy of Scot Braithwaite's letter. Scot Braithwaite is a representative of Wellard group, one of the main live exporters. There are some abc reports on how the cattle business to indonesia is managed, and Mr Braithwaite is featured in a couple. It is fair to say that Mr Bratihwaite has a vested interest, but so do the people who produced the "4 corners" report, and the animal rights activists who filmed in the first place.

The complete abc series of stories on live export from three years back is here:
Cattle safe for live export? (http://www.abc.net.au/rural/content/2007/s2160639.htm)
Animal welfare at sea (http://www.abc.net.au/rural/content/2007/s2186735.htm)
Life on a livestock vessel (http://www.abc.net.au/rural/content/2007/s2186723.htm)
Travelling cattle class... 'the live export experience' (http://www.abc.net.au/rural/content/2007/s2159619.htm)
Arriving in Indonesia (http://www.abc.net.au/rural/content/2007/s2187118.htm)
Indonesia wet market needs a good scrub (http://www.abc.net.au/rural/content/2007/s2187776.htm)

After reading these, reading other information and considering the comments by Mr Braithwaite in his letter (which can also be found widely on the net) I have come to the following conclusions:

1) Sending cattle to Indonesia is not "sending them to torture". There are abattoirs and businesses in Indonesia that do approach animal welfare properly, and they are not in the minority.

2) The Government's ban is ill-thought-out and pandering to a mob mentality. It has not been undertaken with appropriate consideration or investigation.

3) The public outcry has been expertly manipulated by animal rights activists who are not interested in guaranteeing animal welfare standards in Indonesia, but are using the issue to push the aim of stopping ALL live animal exports, regardless of quality of welfare.

As such, if I had the opportunity, after a small amount of due diligence, I would sell my cattle to Indonesia now. (In the week after the 4 corners report, we have sold animals to go to Turkey - I am willing to "walk the talk" - and I believe these cattle will be treated humanely. These are cattle that have been born and raised on our property.)

I think it is inappropriate to condemn a nation as having a culture of animal cruelty based on a news report and a youtube video. Otherwise, Australia has a similar culture of cruelty based on Indigenous turtle capture.

I know some of you might think I am credulous, or a cruel torturer, or just self-interested, and that the "4 corners" report is representative of the whole of the Indonesian abattoir system. However, unless you have been to Indonesia and into the abattoirs and feedlots yourself, I think you have to consider the biases of the reporters and of the animal rights activists as well as the biases of the exporters before coming to a conclusion.

I have considered these things, and my conclusion is the trade should continue.

[ving]

I am with you rob... its wasnt that long ago we as a nation were seen as a bunch of racists... look at the cronulla riots and events around that! yet we are not all racist, the racists are a minority (and a very small one at that). and in much the same way the abattoirs that are torturing cattle are in the minority.

one thing we can all learn is to not just take things at face value in order to form an opinion, but to delve deeper to find the truth. and while we might not have that truth yet, we have certainly learned there are two sides (or even more) to this story.

so in my opinion what needs to be done is to continue export of cattle to indonesia but have the substandard abattoirs shut down till they can conform to our standards.

[Scotty72]

I am with you rob... its wasnt that long ago we as a nation were seen as a bunch of racists... look at the cronulla riots and events around that! yet we are not all racist, the racists are a minority (and a very small one at that).

How, in the wide world, do you figure that?:scrtch:

[ving]

i watch the news on TV, read articles on line, etc just like everyone else... for a while there we were seen as a racist nation by alot of ppl. eve more recently we had problems with indian students.... you dont remember any of this?

here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Indians_in_Australia_controversy
interesting reading on how indian media started a smear campaign against australia based on what they thought was racial violence.

what i am saying is that the actions of a few has condemned all.

[Scotty72]

I meant, how do you figure we are not a racist nation?

[Sezzy]

More interestingly, how do you figure we are?

[Scotty72]

Ummmm.

Well, there is the Cronulla incident.

There was the fact that Pauline Hanson (whose major policy seemed to be based on ethnic exclusion) gained a frightening level of support (esp in Qld)

The continuing inequity between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal Australians. Particularly how they are treated if minerals are found on their land.

The race between Gillard and Abbott to make daemons of refugees.

As stated in this thread, the rush to daemonize Indonesians for their inhuman-ness (rather than take responsibility for us allowing it to occur)

The race to condemn Indonesia and paint them as unjust monsters (to whip up racism) when one of us decides to run drugs on their soil.

Our unjustified fear of the rise of China as too powerful (why never the same fear of the far more powerful USofA?)

the list goes on

[Sezzy]

But that's not all people, which is what I think Ving was actually getting at. Once again, not a majority, but a minority.

The unfortunate truth is the minority tend to have the loudest voice, and demand to be heard.

Media publications write articles/show reports, doco's, etc. that will sell...and as such, despite the Journalism 'rules' will slant a story to a political agenda or some other such garbage. I guess at the end of the day, it's up to a discerning individual to figure out if these media publications are actually giving an unbiased view...

[Scotty72]

But that's not all people, which is what I think Ving was actually getting at. Once again, not a majority, but a minority.

The unfortunate truth is the minority tend to have the loudest voice, and demand to be heard.

Media publications write articles/show reports, doco's, etc. that will sell...and as such, despite the Journalism 'rules' will slant a story to a political agenda or some other such garbage. I guess at the end of the day, it's up to a discerning individual to figure out if these media publications are actually giving an unbiased view...

I'm not sure that, for some of these at least, it is a minority. Clearly Gillard and Abbott are desperately trying to pander to what they see as the popular political sentiment.

There was also a large outcry when Corby was going through her trial - the talkback radio jocks and newspapers were full of 'anti-Indonesian' sentiment. Not sure if it was the majority but, it was a large slice of the population.

Our media's non-coverage of the great Pakistani floods of last year (one of the worst natural disasters ever) was a disgrace: especially when contrast to the mega coverage of a US tornado which is minuscule in comparison. Before you blame the media, SBS did cover it - but who watches that ethnic stuff anyway, right? :rolleyes:

Or, the wave of suspicion / fear of Muslims for the terrible crime of 'being a Muslim' - because, if you're a Muslim, you must support terrorism. (Should I point out my extreme use of sarcastic irony? Just in case - THAT WAS IRONY!).

Or even our occasional surge of anti-Americanism... Let's test. 'Color' 'Aluminum' 'Sydney Harbor'. Usually enough to send many an Aussie pink with rage. :)

Scotty

[ving]

once again media sensationalism and scare tactics run riot.... we are not all like this.

[Kym]

Thread closed - the arguments are circular. No one is likely to shift position because of them.

Sadly, we have media driven politics with little regard to facts.