Voluntary photography work [Archive] - AusPhotography:: Australia's Premier Photography Forum::

etherial

31-05-2011, 7:02pm

This is an interesting question and I've often pondered it too. I shoot dog shows and just about all clubs are not for profit. Some will pay for a photographer, some just get someone with a "good camera" to do it for nothing, and others want a good photographer but aren't willing to pay.

I guess the answer to your question is, it depends! On what I don't know though! If they are not for profit, is it ok to charge? But you are providing a good service, your equipment, your expertise...? It is a tough one.

I've working on a model of charging the club a modest fee and then putting all the images up for sale to exhibitors to buy with some of the money from each sale going back to the club. That way I get the job, they can get their photos done for not much or even a profit (if when :p my images are good and we sell enough) and I get a reasonable sum; not enough to live on, or even build a business on, but something to fuel my GAS :p. Some would say people like me are also part of the problem. This model seems to be working for the moment, but it is a lot of work and there seems to be more and more people offering services for nothing; and the clubs gets what they paid for.

People doing it for nothing certainly devalues the industry, but that is the nature of the beast and where it is heading, first it was weekend warriors like me trying to make some cash on the side, and now it is anyone with a 'good camera' will do. I guess all you/we can do is produce great work and demonstrate value for money. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask to be paid, and the people you want to work for are the ones that recognise your value.

atky

31-05-2011, 7:11pm

Hi I think for a club images for there web site is OK but if you shoot an event you expect the competitors \ participants to pay for your images. Unfortunately some people think they are buying friends by giving the driver of a $100,000 + car images for free, doesn't make sense to me.

fabian628

31-05-2011, 7:16pm

My opinion is there is no reason not to get paid if they are going to profit from it, unless it is a favour for a friend or you will somehow get a non $ gain from the exchange (maybe get a good rep from the boss of the company you work for etc.)
If someone approached me from a charity I probably would, I don't think I would actively seek out unpaid work, unless maybe It was a sporting event which may be fun to shoot and would get a nice set of picture from.

kiwi

31-05-2011, 7:49pm

There's a lot of stuff that most would shoot for free....lets be honet, if someone said shoot the afl gand final as long as the got all the images I would in a heartbeat.....do it every weekend it soon becomes work.

kazdez

31-05-2011, 8:05pm

I think it depends on the event or activity. For a non profit organization that are not selling on the images, I have no problems doing it for free for them, but I have an agreement, that states that if I take images of people, I will give my card, load up after the event, and if they want to purchase ok then. We still own the images but give limited commercial use for advertising or promoting the next event. They usually request specific things like opening welcomes or a particular event that can be given to the local papers and all are recognized to the photographer concerned. But if it is for an organization to make money, well I will make money too

Karen

neil70

31-05-2011, 8:21pm

I think it comes down to if the images are going to be used for a profit then charge. I shoot a lot of kids sport and the look you get when you give them a shot of them doing roost on a moto x bike or a specky at the football is all the payment needed.

Keith Young

31-05-2011, 10:29pm

In think this pretty much sums up photographing for free:

(c) image removed

If you cant see it here is the original: http://www.aphotoeditor.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/workforfree.jpg

gerry

31-05-2011, 10:32pm

James T

31-05-2011, 10:37pm

When is it OK to volunteer my services? Whenever the hell I want to. Same should go for anyone else really.

Wayne

31-05-2011, 11:18pm

When is it OK to volunteer my services? Whenever the hell I want to. Same should go for anyone else really.

I fully agree. I can and will do for free what and when I please, and I have no regard whatsoever for how professional or want to be professional, part time professional etc photographers may view that. Those who see it as devaluing their industry, should re-think their chosen industry if they feel it affects them so terribly. I don't think doing it for free is the only problem for those who have a problem, it is basically doing any cheaper, better etc or doing anything that takes away from them as being the problem.

Those who can't agree with how the industry has gone had better just get used to it, because free or cheap photographers who make $$ on the side are growing in number by the day, and it will only go more that way as time goes on. There are plenty of quality photographers out there who will work for free or very little, simply for some recognition regardless of whether the beneficiary is going to profit or otherwise. Many people will also accept lesser quality in return for lower or zero cost as long as they get what they need as not everyone needs fully edited pro quality files.

jasevk

01-06-2011, 12:31am

The biggest problem I have with it would be if a volunteer was somehow involved in an incident (as unlikely as that may be) without the insurance a professional would likely have.

I volunteer maybe twice a month for an organization called Heartfelt, non profit, as for something like that... I'd actually be quite disgusted if there were other pros looking to secure paid work. So I think this is a particular situation where volunteer photographers are absolutely necessary.

jasevk

01-06-2011, 12:36am

The biggest problem I have with it would be if a volunteer was somehow involved in an incident (as unlikely as that may be) without the insurance a professional would likely have.

Yes, I do think it devalues the industry... Well actually, isn't it basic economics to say it does???

However, there is an exception to the issue of devaluation of photography. I volunteer maybe twice a month for an organization called Heartfelt, non profit, as for something like that... I'd actually be quite disgusted if there were other pros looking to secure paid work. So I think this is a particular situation where volunteer photographers are absolutely necessary.

Oops! Was meant to modify the above post! Instead I quoted :D

Longshots

01-06-2011, 7:27am

What's your opinion when it's ok to provide voluntary or unpaid photography work to a community event, charity, sports club, company, organization, or an event ?

Never ?
Always ?
Depends ?

The reason I ask is that often I scout for paid work only to be told that they have photographers there in an unpaid capacity ?

Ah - yes - tell me about this one.

To directly respond to your last question first:

OK companies/organisations tend to seemingly employ someone who has some photographic equipment, which in most of their bosses eyes is akin to being capable of photographing everything and everything, regardless of experience, skill and ability.

I was recently told by one company in response to my enquiry if they commissioned photography, their response was that they already employed a photographer - he was their accountant "he has a good camera" was the second response.

I own a musical instrument - doesnt make me a musician.
I can buy building products from Bunnings - doesnt make me a builder.

But that will probably ignite a whole topic of rebukes and defensive comments.

Interestingly I didnt consider calling myself a photographer until I'd been shooting for over five years.

Recently I was approached by a "photographer" who had set up a website, contacted me for advice, and when I was reviewing their site, I was aware that the large majority of the work displayed was clearly from iStock (it helps if you dont use the samples with the watermark still on them:rolleyes: ). They seemed put out when I suggested that it probably isnt ethical to display stock work, especially as they had no hope of reaching the level of work from iStock. Interestingly iStock were more put out that I thought that was unethical use of iStock images then the clear illegal use of iStocks products.

Back to the first question though:

Think you should have added one more choice - "Sometimes" - so I have

Community Event - depends
Charity - sometimes
Sports Club - depends
Company - never
Organisation - never/depends
Event - depends

Welcome to my world Darren.

Where companies have many employees who may employ people who in their spare time are, sometimes, very capable, and at times quite talented photographers but do not have to consider in their photographic career, costings a) their living expenses, b) standard business running costs, and here's the crux c) feel bullied, compelled, or enjoy the additional ego massage of providing their company with images at no additional cost above their ordinary wages.

Deal with that, because thats the challenge I meet every day.

And BTW - Heartfelt is an amazing charity to support and one that requires some cast iron strong personalities to go and shoot under those circumstances to a very very big kudos and thanks to anyone doing that type of work - good on ya Jase :) !!!

Longshots

01-06-2011, 7:47am

I should also add that I have no problem competing with those who want to work for free. I dont see it as devaluing the industry at all. If people want to work for free - then go for it. Because as one who does work in the industry, I'm confident I can compete. And this is a free country (so we're told), so its others choice to do that.

However it does seem ironic that so many will turn to shooting for payment, and then eventually you will see the same points of concern being raised by those who originally worked for free, now want advice on how to counter those doing what they started with.

I've offered many charities work for free, and its interesting how few have taken that offer on.

etherial

01-06-2011, 7:54am

I fully agree. I can and will do for free what and when I please, and I have no regard whatsoever for how professional or want to be professional, part time professional etc photographers may view that. Those who see it as devaluing their industry, should re-think their chosen industry if they feel it affects them so terribly. I don't think doing it for free is the only problem for those who have a problem, it is basically doing any cheaper, better etc or doing anything that takes away from them as being the problem.

Those who can't agree with how the industry has gone had better just get used to it, because free or cheap photographers who make $$ on the side are growing in number by the day, and it will only go more that way as time goes on. There are plenty of quality photographers out there who will work for free or very little, simply for some recognition regardless of whether the beneficiary is going to profit or otherwise. Many people will also accept lesser quality in return for lower or zero cost as long as they get what they need as not everyone needs fully edited pro quality files.

Wayne, I don't disagree with you and in many ways you have reinforced my point that things are changing! I just think that doing too much for free sells yourself short. We all individually need to draw a line somewhere and that is the hard bit, where? Do free work every week and it becomes just that, work! If you're comfortable doing that fine, but I'm not. Each to their own I guess.

jeffde

01-06-2011, 8:16am

I am the photographer for the local Cancer Council Relay for Life - I was a committee member but dropped off the committee due to not having the time to put in a full effort.
I see me as supplying the images of the day free to the Cancer Council and participants as a civic duty - and is no different to other committee members volunteering their time and expertise in catering, marketing, media, fundraising and management.
They have never paid a photographer and never would.
I believe in Kamra - sometimes you have to give to get back...

So in answering the OP question? Depends....

kiwi

01-06-2011, 8:55am

i guess if there is a problem here its where people are supplying images and clearly working for free where under "normal" circumstances that would be considered by most photographers as actual work. For example being an accreditted sport or media tog, concert photography, council run events etc

Charitable work - yes - heartfelt, the local cancer council etc all worthy "donations".

Longshots

01-06-2011, 8:57am

Yep I certainly applaud, agree encourage, and indulge in supporting any charity events.

I @ M

01-06-2011, 9:00am

What's your opinion when it's ok to provide voluntary or unpaid photography work to a community event, charity, sports club, company, organization, or an event ?

My point of view from living away from the larger cities and having fairly extensive local knowledge.

A community event ---

Most of them are financially backed by the shire. If I was to give my time to the group that was running the event I have no doubt that the shire would want some of the photos to show from the day that the event that "they" organised was a good thing. The shire, or at least the "event coordinators" within the shire would then probably say " ooh goody, we can get free photos from them" and sit back and hatch a scheme where they could allow a bit more in the budget to cover "photography" at the next community event. That money could be then safely siphoned off to go towards a "planning" meeting, more than likely to be conducted at a flash restaurant, pub or club.

So a resounding NO to community events from me.

A charity ----

Only to the ones that don't pay telemarketers, promotional companies or wages to administrative employees.

A sports club ---

Many sport clubs are backed / assisted by the shire ( see community events above ) so I would be very selective about which ones I would help out.

Being a member of a sporting club that is actively ignored by the shire and knowing the circumstances of others it is easy to make decisions so it is a maybe.

A company ---

Are they going to provide me anything worthwhile in return?

Depends but probably not in that case.

An organisation or event ---

Depends on the individual case ( see comments re shire backing above ) and recently I have become involved with a group who will be holding an art event that is receiving minimal funding from both state and local government ( particularly the shire, see notes above about the shire ) and I will be both participating in the event and assisting with photographing the event.

Once again a maybe.

My points are expressed as more of a personal view point and not necessarily from a business perspective and I have no issue with others doing exactly as they wish to with their time, expertise, equipment and money but I think William summed it up succinctly above where he said that so many of those who gave away their services in order to get a foot in the door in the first place are the ones most likely to complain about others doing it in the future. I'm sure there is something in there about having your cake and eating it as well. :rolleyes:

kiwi

01-06-2011, 9:02am

Yes, I agree. I think its ironic too :)

Wayne

01-06-2011, 9:38am

Wayne, I don't disagree with you and in many ways you have reinforced my point that things are changing! I just think that doing too much for free sells yourself short. We all individually need to draw a line somewhere and that is the hard bit, where? Do free work every week and it becomes just that, work! If you're comfortable doing that fine, but I'm not. Each to their own I guess.

I should point out that when considering the work I take on, I do far more paid than freebie work (my personal photography aside of course) but just wanted to point out that when considering doing freebies, I don't care what view anyone else takes of that.

kiwi

01-06-2011, 9:41am

I should point out that when considering the work I take on, I do far more paid than freebie work (my personal photography aside of course) but just wanted to point out that when considering doing freebies, I don't care what view anyone else takes of that.

OK, to twist this a little, what do you think of photographers who do for free what you used to get paid to do ?

James T

01-06-2011, 11:24am

... I think William summed it up succinctly above where he said that so many of those who gave away their services in order to get a foot in the door in the first place are the ones most likely to complain about others doing it in the future. I'm sure there is something in there about having your cake and eating it as well. :rolleyes:

I don't think that's the case at all. I've never seen any stats to suggest that it is or isn't.. but in my experience the opposite is true.

OK, to twist this a little, what do you think of photographers who do for free what you used to get paid to do ?

Plenty of photographers do for free, what I get paid to do. Doesn't bother me at all, why would it? I get paid, they don't - that's up to them.

kiwi

01-06-2011, 11:30am

James, Im assuming you have plenty of paid work and dont lose out jobs to those that WFF ? If so, I envy you and well done.

Wayne

01-06-2011, 11:48am

OK, to twist this a little, what do you think of photographers who do for free what you used to get paid to do ?

You know it isn't my main income mate, so really all it means to me is that I don't have to do a job for a few $$ pocket money. I am not aware of having lost a job to a freebie operator, but it may have happened and I was just never told about it. I have no issue with people wanting to do it for whatever reward suits them be it cheap or free...

Before anyone against free photography asks, if the same free approach were applied to what is my main income (mining) how would I feel then?

Good luck to anyone who wants to be a miner for free. If it came down to me having difficulty getting paid mining work, or having to work in mining for peanuts, I would change industry. I'm not afraid of change....

JM Tran

01-06-2011, 12:11pm

I'm not afraid of change....

Best line in the thread for me:)

Dont know why some ppl are kicking up a fuss in this thread. Things will always continue to develop and evolve in life, the work place and photography. If you try and fight those changes, you are only swimming against the tide. I couldnt care less if some ppl are doing photography gigs for free, I have never lost work from it. Work that is worth my time and effort anyway.

Besides, I work with NGOs and other independent aid groups that are non-profitable, and I do give them my photos for free and others too. :th3:

kiwi

01-06-2011, 12:38pm

Not meaning to cause a fuss, I'm just interested in when people (hobbyists and pros alike) think about doing free stuff

It seems nobody really cares one way or the other which is fine and sort of surprising

ksolomon

01-06-2011, 2:02pm

IMO any charity organisation I would do for free, immediate family and a favour to immediate family I would also do for free, anything else I would like to get paid (that may not always end up the case).

Now on saying that as I am only starting out in this business and have at this point the need to keep my full time job to support not only my photography adiction but also my family I did ask my mentor (a professional photographer of many many years and well respected) what would be a fair asking price for my services based on experience etc when quoting for any work. The advice I was given was start out at $20 to $25 per hour plus printing, this is what she feels would be fair. So that is where I am currently at.

I personally don't care if someone is charging more or less than me we all start somewhere and if your goal is to build into this business you do in these times I believe do things at a reduced or free rate to gain the exposure and experience to build your portfolio so to speak. This might have taken this off topic a little but its just my opinion.

JM Tran

01-06-2011, 2:34pm

The advice I was given was start out at $20 to $25 per hour plus printing, this is what she feels would be fair. So that is where I am currently at.

I'd have to disagree with her on her pricing advice there.

So theoretically if I hire you for say, 4 hours for an event shoot somewhere in Brisbane. You drive there and back from the Gold Coast say, 2 hours there and back, plus a few more hours of processing and editing, and you may need to mail the photos to me after.

4 hours photography: $100
2 hours of driving time and petrol: minus $15
3 hours processing and editing: minus your own time
postage to client: minus $5

so you are ending with around $80 dollars net profit and about 8-9 hours of your time gone. So you would have been making $10 per hour net.

Im afraid to say that this example above would be another argument into the devaluation of the photographic industry, based on unsound advice - no offence to your mentor by any means - but by wrong approaches. How does one plan or expect to raise their prices to a profitable level soon or in the near future, if they are perceived as being a budget photographer right from the start?

Photography is not about how long you have been doing it for, its about how good you are at it. I have been doing this full time for nearly 3 years, and I have never charged anything based on an hourly rate.

ksolomon

01-06-2011, 2:49pm

I'd have to disagree with her on her pricing advice there.

So theoretically if I hire you for say, 4 hours for an event shoot somewhere in Brisbane. You drive there and back from the Gold Coast say, 2 hours there and back, plus a few more hours of processing and editing, and you may need to mail the photos to me after.

4 hours photography: $100
2 hours of driving time and petrol: minus $15
3 hours processing and editing: minus your own time
postage to client: minus $5

so you are ending with around $80 dollars net profit and about 8-9 hours of your time gone. So you would have been making $10 per hour net.

Im afraid to say that this example above would be another argument into the devaluation of the photographic industry, based on unsound advice - no offence to your mentor by any means - but by wrong approaches. How does one plan or expect to raise their prices to a profitable level soon or in the near future, if they are perceived as being a budget photographer right from the start?

Photography is not about how long you have been doing it for, its about how good you are at it. I have been doing this full time for nearly 3 years, and I have never charged anything based on an hourly rate.

Don't get me wrong here as I appreciate your opinion, advice and thought process, In my mind if I was doing a job like your example I would add in the charge of time from when I left home ie the 2 hours driving but not the petrol and would add in time for processing, I also charge all outgoings at cost ie printing, postage.

This advice was based on quoting for my first job doing the photography for a hair competition I spent 2 hours on photography (from leaving to arriving back home) then 1 hour processing plus printing. Charged the client based on the 3 hours plus outgoings and they were happy and understood my capabilities. I agree that it would depend on the type of job etc whether you would charge on hourly rate or otherwise.

In my mind I was trying to be fair to myself and to more experienced photographers in setting a realistic price based on my limited experience, time in the industry and knowledge compared to say someone who has been working for many years and can rightly charge from a few hundred to a few thousand depending on the job :)

Wayne

01-06-2011, 3:30pm

JM Tran

01-06-2011, 3:45pm

I want to drive what Jackie drives!!
If you can drive from GC to BNE and back for $15 at todays petrol prices lol
Even a small motorcycle would be doing it tough. This just reinforces the extra loss you would take with a job costed at the rates above when you don't charge for fuel...

hahaha its been nearly 3 years since Ive driven from Brissy to the GC, so kinda forgot how long it would take:)

kiwi

01-06-2011, 4:51pm

45 minutes at 4 in the morning, 4 1/2 hours at 4 in the afternoon :cool:

camerasnoop

02-06-2011, 8:50am

Let me first say that photography is my ONLY source of income, so I have an interest in making sure that I not only cover my costs, but also make "living expenses" as someone so eloquently put it above. I have done work for free, and I have done work for a bloody loss :rolleyes:

I don't mind people working for nothing as long as they aren't doing it to get a job off me. Mercenary? Absolutely. Throwing your money away doing freebies for people who would normally be able to pay (exclude charity work here guys and gals) is also fine with me as long as I'm not expected to do the same.

Last year I was sent an email from a well-funded local organisation offering me "the opportunity" to shoot their big corporate event at the best hotel in town. They went on to detail their requirements which included giving them all the images on disc immediately after the event wound down at midnight. The event was a five hour affair and coverage was of the awards being handed out and some portraiture work as well as shots against backdrops etc. Here's the sting in the tail though. They were offering me $150 to do the job and they would give me two tickets (only for myself and my spouse) at the event, and allow me to put my business cards on the tables.

I advised them that I would have to decline their generous offer.

When that stuff starts happening, I know that that someone has sussed that some photographers are happy to work for nothing. Sorry, but I'm not one of them. Buying and maintaining gear costs a lot of money and the tooth fairy doesn't pay that well.

camerasnoop

02-06-2011, 9:44am

Let me also twist the question a little as kiwi has done.

Say I put you on as a second shooter on one of my jobs...you know...to give you experience and exposure to the business. Say I couldn't afford to pay you and so traded off the experience you got against the wages you'd forgo. Would you do that for long? Would you keep doing it if you found out I was charging you out at $100 per hour? Would you believe me at all if I drove a Mercedes Benz?

Doing the work for free, whether it is for me or for another business is the same isn't it? I'm not trying to change peoples' opinions, just maybe putting the question in a different light (little photography joke there).

jasevk

02-06-2011, 9:46am

Don't get me wrong here as I appreciate your opinion, advice and thought process, In my mind if I was doing a job like your example I would add in the charge of time from when I left home ie the 2 hours driving but not the petrol and would add in time for processing, I also charge all outgoings at cost ie printing, postage.

This advice was based on quoting for my first job doing the photography for a hair competition I spent 2 hours on photography (from leaving to arriving back home) then 1 hour processing plus printing. Charged the client based on the 3 hours plus outgoings and they were happy and understood my capabilities. I agree that it would depend on the type of job etc whether you would charge on hourly rate or otherwise.

In my mind I was trying to be fair to myself and to more experienced photographers in setting a realistic price based on my limited experience, time in the industry and knowledge compared to say someone who has been working for many years and can rightly charge from a few hundred to a few thousand depending on the job :)

Sorry, gotta agree with JM.

Forget about what your friend told you, and forget about what other pros are charging... Do a thorough analysis of ALL of your costs in fine fine detail, add some profit on top and allowance for capital expenditure etc etc... And determine what you are worth. I'd be willing to bet that 25 per hour won't even cover your costs...

If showing respect to professionals about how you charge is important to you, you'll earn more respect by determining your own value in this way, than going in cheap just because someone said so!

ksolomon

02-06-2011, 2:51pm

Sorry, gotta agree with JM.

If showing respect to professionals about how you charge is important to you, you'll earn more respect by determining your own value in this way, than going in cheap just because someone said so!

Appreciate your point of view, I had not looked at this from that angle. Your point is food for thought and will research further. Thanks :)

Longshots

02-06-2011, 4:00pm

Sorry, gotta agree with JM.

Forget about what your friend told you, and forget about what other pros are charging... Do a thorough analysis of ALL of your costs in fine fine detail, add some profit on top and allowance for capital expenditure etc etc... And determine what you are worth. I'd be willing to bet that 25 per hour won't even cover your costs...

If showing respect to professionals about how you charge is important to you, you'll earn more respect by determining your own value in this way, than going in cheap just because someone said so!

Forgive me for copying all of this - its a case of hitting the nail on the head - well done Jason - utterly right.

camerasnoop

02-06-2011, 5:57pm

Come on kiwi. Have I outdone your Avatar yet? :cool:

kiwi

02-06-2011, 5:59pm

Dunno, i really dont think much of her, your photo is it ?

camerasnoop

02-06-2011, 6:05pm

Well it's not a photo of me, but it is one I took.

kiwi

02-06-2011, 6:06pm

Guess who took my one ?

I @ M

02-06-2011, 6:07pm

Bad hair day snoopy? :rolleyes:

I @ M

02-06-2011, 6:08pm

Guess who took my one ?

Dunno, but I would ask for my money back, too much negative space up top ---- the photo that is. :D

camerasnoop

02-06-2011, 6:09pm

She's got hair. I don't. I give up kiwi. Was it Kevin?

kiwi

02-06-2011, 6:10pm

I prefer Kevin

Anyhow WAY off topic :-)

kiwi

02-06-2011, 6:12pm

Better ?

I @ M

02-06-2011, 6:15pm

Looks more like a politician now, hang on, it's a cocky, not a galah.

kiwi

03-06-2011, 9:38am

I did a free job for school in the weekend, I then onsell prints etc to parents and have done last couple of years, nothing that will make me rich. This year a ft pro photographer and mum was there, took hundreds of photos and then posted them all online for free download before I could say boo. There goes my business :-(

James T

03-06-2011, 10:27am

James, Im assuming you have plenty of paid work and dont lose out jobs to those that WFF ? If so, I envy you and well done.

Thanks. I wouldn't say plenty though - working restrictions on my visas (up until this month) would stop that anyway. :)

I have worked for free before, my best client came from a free job I did with some other students back when we were in uni. I just did a better job than the other students, and photographers they'd worked with - so now I get regular paid work from them.

I'm also in negotiations at the moment hoping to get a job at a decent rate of pay.. it's proving difficult because previously they've paid somebody $60 for the work (probably about $5 an hour minus expenses). I'm confident if I do get it though, that I will continue to work with them in the future as they'll see the value in hiring someone to produce a proper product.

If not, then I won't complain about it; the $60 guy is free to work for that price. And if the client is happy with his product - and him turning up late for the event, then it's none of my business, I'll move onto the next one.

If you could sell to everyone then this would be a really easy job. :)