Making a good living - Is photography a good career choice?

[Bear Dale]

An interesting read -

http://laurencekim.com/2011/04/28/the-photography-business-and-the-american-dream/

[astrogirl529]

He has a great blog lots of info.

[BecM]

I had to laugh when I read this article.

My daughter is living her dream (she is 24), working in NYC as a photographer. At this point in her life money is nothing, she needs enough just to feed herself and pay her rent, savings is a dream :) I hope it's a really long time before the reality of this article sinks in, I cannot tell you how proud I am of her.

Also just an interesting aside, she was published in a fashion magazine in Australia this month using a very old Canon film camera, she does own a 'good' camera (canon of course :)) but will fall into the category of not needing to upgrade every year. That old adage, it's what's behind the camera not the camera itself.

Another also, my daughter doesn't shoot weddings but a lot of other types of photography, so the images she has could very well be worth a lot in years to come - so the equity thing isn't quite correct.

[peterb666]

It was a fun read, thanks for sharing.

[colinbm]

So that is where I went wrong !
I was never told any of this at school, at home or at trade schooling ??
I went into my own busines, wore out & dropped out.
As they say, "When you are up to your armpits in crocodiles, it is hard to remember that you are ment to be draining the swamp". :o
Now the rest of the country picks up the tab for my lack of training & knowledge ?
Pretty dumb isn't it :eek:

Cheers
Col

[Dylan & Marianne]

great read! hence I fall in the part timer category :)

[aussie girl]

what a great article, really gives a no nonsense truth to photography as a career, doesnt it??
I have now been educated and have come to realise the following.
1. I will not have much chance at making a zillion bucks out of photography. ( yeah well I figured that out just by looking at the photos I take - no rocket science there )
2. My expensive camera is now worth jack - yeah knew that, everything depreciates and new versions pop up every day.
3. Having lots of good photos will not create a retirement wealth, because unless someone really wants them, they are not worth the photo paper, or smart stick they are on. - NONE of my photos have led me to any delusions of grandure at this stage (lol)
4. I will now go and throw my worthless camera into the bin, because it is not going to be a viable form of making a living.:( woe is me.
I think one of the replies to his post was very relevent, you have to make yourself some sort of niche market, or come up with something new that will be "wanted' (not necessarily needed) by every photographer out there and who will just want to go out and buy. Not sure what that might be at this stage, but will get the ol' thinking cap on :lol:

There are quite a few people out there who have managed to make ends meet quite nicely via photography, but I understand where he is coming from, at the end of the day, you may not necesarily have anything to sell off, not like a shop that has the building, lease, stock or goodwill as assets. But at the end of the day, I am assuming that the majority of people that are "into" photography are into it more for the challenge, the fun and enjoyment and the satisfaction of being able to take a photo of something ordinary and be able to make it look spectacular, it is more of an art form than anything. There are a few who become very well known as photographers and who market their photos very successfully, but they are more the minority than majority, and good on them. I would love to be able to take the types of photos that the Steve Parish's, Peter Dobre's, Ken Duncan's and Stavros Pipposes of the world do, and I have seen some photos on this forum from people who certainly do take photos of this callibre, but at this stage of the game, I am just a person who has a camera and doesnt get enough time in the day to really put serious time into something I hope I will have a lot of time for later in my life.
Now back to reality - work in the morning - ho hum :(

[Shelley]

I tell ya, never went into it for the money.

Very interesting read.

[ricktas]

If you want to become a world famous pro-photographer, I would say the adage, T'is not what you know, it is who you know, is extremely true. There are many photographers out there who can take photos with the best of them, but they aren't names like Geddes, LaChapelle, Leibovitz etc.

These people pushed their skills, came up with creative and original concepts and were lucky enough to meet someone who was in a position to get them 'in the door' of the rich and famous. Once you get someone who is rich and famous espousing your merits, you can soon be elevated to the status of famous photographer, yourself. But it doesn't mean at all, that you are better than other unknown photographers out there, it is all about being in the right place at the right time and going with the opportunities that you encounter. For some this is luck, for others, they have a drive (and the skills) and they make sure they are in places where there is a chance of getting noticed by someone. After all, no use wanting to be a photographer to the Hollywood Stars, and living life in Hobart, Tasmania. If you want to do that, you need to be willing to move to Hollywood/L.A.

There seems to be this perception that if you are good enough, you will be a famous photographer, or make lots of money. In reality, it isn't your photography skills that get you there (though you do need them), it is luck and determination, meeting the right people and recognising an opportunity and going for it. It is often everything but your photography skills that gives someone their 'big break'.

There are a lot of very fine professional photographers out there, who are as good, if not better, than the world famous ones.

There are also a lot of mediocre photographers who think they should be making twice as much money as they do, but are not changing their business plan to achieve that. Rather they lament the outside influences that stop them being so. When really is it what drives a photographer internally, that will make or break them, in most cases. So if you want to be a professional photographer, and have the skills (really have them), then the only thing stopping you is how intense your drive is to succeed. Cause a half hearted attempt will not get you there.

Is it easy, as the article shows, no it isn't. Is it do-able, of course it is!

[jim]

I'm often surprised at how much attention this forum places on photography as a business. After all most of us are amateurs aren't we? And photography is a fantastic hobby, it's deeply satisfying when you get it right, and it has tremendous depth (that is you can be as casual or as serious as you like, and if you get really serious you will never stop learning, and hopefully never stop getting better at it). And you can even make money from it sometimes.

But as a business I should think nearly all of us would be better off getting a regular job and using that to finance the hobby...

[Bear Dale]

If you want to become a world famous pro-photographer, I would say the adage, T'is not what you know, it is who you know, is extremely true. There are many photographers out there who can take photos with the best of them, but they aren't names like Geddes, LaChapelle, Leibovitz etc.



I think theres a lot of truth in that.

[colinbm]

If you want to become a world famous pro-photographer, I would say the adage, T'is not what you know, it is who you know, is extremely true. There are many photographers out there who can take photos with the best of them, but they aren't names like Geddes, LaChapelle, Leibovitz etc.

These people pushed their skills, came up with creative and original concepts and were lucky enough to meet someone who was in a position to get them 'in the door' of the rich and famous. Once you get someone who is rich and famous espousing your merits, you can soon be elevated to the status of famous photographer, yourself. But it doesn't mean at all, that you are better than other unknown photographers out there, it is all about being in the right place at the right time and going with the opportunities that you encounter. For some this is luck, for others, they have a drive (and the skills) and they make sure they are in places where there is a chance of getting noticed by someone. After all, no use wanting to be a photographer to the Hollywood Stars, and living life in Hobart, Tasmania. If you want to do that, you need to be willing to move to Hollywood/L.A.

There seems to be this perception that if you are good enough, you will be a famous photographer, or make lots of money. In reality, it isn't your photography skills that get you there (though you do need them), it is luck and determination, meeting the right people and recognising an opportunity and going for it. It is often everything but your photography skills that gives someone their 'big break'.

There are a lot of very fine professional photographers out there, who are as good, if not better, than the world famous ones.

There are also a lot of mediocre photographers who think they should be making twice as much money as they do, but are not changing their business plan to achieve that. Rather they lament the outside influences that stop them being so. When really is it what drives a photographer internally, that will make or break them, in most cases. So if you want to be a professional photographer, and have the skills (really have them), then the only thing stopping you is how intense your drive is to succeed. Cause a half hearted attempt will not get you there.

Is it easy, as the article shows, no it isn't. Is it do-able, of course it is!

The same can be said of any trade or profession. Some have it, some don't. Grasping opportunities as they go by !

[Bear Dale]

I reckon that there would be a bit of $ to be made in post production.

PP'ing other photographers photos for a fee. All done via email (of ftp) from the comfort of your own home.

[kiwi]

I reckon that there would be a bit of $ to be made in post production.

PP'ing other photographers photos for a fee. All done via email (of ftp) from the comfort of your own home.

altready done quite extensively (and cheaply) by companies in the sub-continent.

[Bear Dale]

How much do they charge Darren? You woudn't happen to have a link would you?

[ricktas]

altready done quite extensively (and cheaply) by companies in the sub-continent.

Yep, India in particular has whole centre's setup to PP images at rates way below what you could offer in Australia.

[ricktas]

How much do they charge Darren? You woudn't happen to have a link would you?

Just google "Photo processing India"

[Bear Dale]

Yep, India in particular has whole centre's setup to PP images at rates way below what you could offer in Australia.

But why couldn't someone in Oz do it for the same price? Someone on a pension or something similiar might be a good earner?

[kiwi]

I guess thy could Jim, I guess it always depends on skill, availability, and rates

[Bear Dale]

Just Googled Ricks search words...boy there's a lot of hits and there prices are very cheap.

[kiwi]

Any service at all that you can do remotely, eg call centre, development, this sort if thing, etc is way cheaper there

you'd have to think that a photo that's completely retouched would have to take anyone at least 30 minutes, so that gives an hourly rate of $16 per hour and i guarantee the worker probably sees maybe 25% of that, maybe

[James T]

There are a lot of places where it's a matter of cents for each image you want processing. Depends on the work though, of course there are other retouching businesses where the fees are hundreds of dollars or more.

As for the article, very geared towards the social wedding photographer of course, but still a handy read for most people. Although I think portraits is still the easiest business in photography to make serious cash from, you just need a bit of capital to get it going, then the right business brain and determination from there. Get a few studios up and running and you can be quids in pretty early on.

A lot of successful photographers to my eye, are business people who happen to sell photography. They could be selling anything really - but for whatever reason, chose photographs.. probably they saw a specific market that made sense. The very successful often have both the business and the photography skills. Again, depends on the business though. For example, some school photographers, I would barely class as photographers - yet they run extremely successful businesses turning over more cash than I probably ever will. Same for cookie cutter portrait shooters. Harder though in something like advertising, fashion or dare I say documentary - try making some money there. ;)

[aussie girl]

Yes you are right, niche markets can work. There is one business in my city who sells old historic photographs. He advertises for any really old photos of areas, buildings and scenes, buys the photos from the people and then reprints them and sells them as prints with or without frames. He always has lots of people milling around looking through the prints and seems to sell quite a few, clever business idea because he is just reselling photos that were taken many many years ago.

Or you could start up a photography website, where all the wouldbe photographers can discuss anything they like about photography, get hints about how to take proper photos, and show off all their skills :th3: Get little commissions here and there for links to other photography sites, who want people to look at their sites, how hard could that be????
Oh.....wait a minute......someone else has already done that..... bloody Ricktas :lol::lol:

[Redgum]

Laurence Kim's blog needs to be read with one eye closed and the other shut. His investment advice is reasonably straight forward and sound but focussing on photography as a wealth earner at the bottom of the heap is tongue in cheek. Any work that earns money is a wealth builder if you manage it right. Okay, 90% of people never manage to break the survival level, that's a fact of life, but 10% do. So how do you get there?
Photography is no different to banking, car salesman, garbologist or public servant. It's all about opportunity, skill level (not necessarily education) and an element of luck (I guess that's opportunity). Funny thing is we are all born the same way, broke and until we are mature enough rarely see opportunity, skill or luck and sometimes that's too late and we've squandered the wealth opportunity. Time is a big factor and contributes significantly to the degree of wealth.
The important part of what Laurence said is to reduce the urge to outspend the income irrespective of occupation and invest the difference in true, not imaginary assets.
It certainly can be done because 10% of us achieve that level to some degree, even photographers. :)

[ricktas]

Yes you are right, niche markets can work. There is one business in my city who sells old historic photographs. He advertises for any really old photos of areas, buildings and scenes, buys the photos from the people and then reprints them and sells them as prints with or without frames. He always has lots of people milling around looking through the prints and seems to sell quite a few, clever business idea because he is just reselling photos that were taken many many years ago.

Or you could start up a photography website, where all the wouldbe photographers can discuss anything they like about photography, get hints about how to take proper photos, and show off all their skills :th3: Get little commissions here and there for links to other photography sites, who want people to look at their sites, how hard could that be????
Oh.....wait a minute......someone else has already done that..... bloody Ricktas :lol::lol:

Ah yes, but if you think you can do that professionally, you won't get far. AP basically pays its own way, and any extra goes back to the site as prizes etc. Let's just say if I gave up my day job, I wouldn't make it through the first home loan repayment, if I relied on AP for my income (and I make weekly home loan repayments).:D

[aussie girl]

Mortgage payments - now they suck dont they????Keep plodding away Rictas, the weekly payments will bring light to the end of the tunnel and ,yes, one day you will be making your last payment and that is such a nice feeling. We paid ours off about 5 years ago, but that doesnt mean we are not struggling. We thought we would have all this left-over money!!! Nope, every other bloody fee and charge went up and up and up, ( and is still going up) and hey presto, no money left over. I doubt very much if I could afford a mortgage payment now!!!


Oh and by the way.. I certainly wasnt suggesting that you had become some sort of overnight millionaire. Now that IS a pipe dream, that only the very very few, (or very very lucky) seem to achieve. For the majority of us mere mortals, it is off to work for 40-50 years and hope you end up with something for your trouble at the end.

[Aljenau]

Photography a career choice?

Change the word photography to marketing and you might have a better chance.
Being a good photographer is simply not enough - it all comes down to promoting yourself and your work.

We all have thousands of images on our computers or in our filing cabinets but unless people know you exist you are simply NOT a professional photographer!

Promote, market and get the word out there.

Sure not many of us will be full time professional photographers but how many here want to be?
I run a farm, operate a graphic design business, work as a tour guide and take photographs.
I consider myself to be a good photographer (newspaper and studio trained) but I simply don't have the time to be a full time professional.

I do shoot the odd (some of them very odd) wedding and cover a number of sporting and other events. Am I a professional photographer?
Insofar as money goes then no I am not but when I am out there working for a client then I conduct myself in a professional manner. Now am I professional?

The thing that really gets up my nose are the 'photographers' that turn up to an event (lets say motor racing as an example), photograph everything that moves during the day, download the pics to their laptop, burn CD's and sell them for $25.00 a pop at the end of the meet.
I will scout the location, pick the best spots, wait for the best moment and use years of experience when my finger presses that shutter button. Why I have even been known to adjust the settings on the camera!
Then at the end of the day I can produce 8"x10" glossy prints showing the best moments from the event and hopefully sell them at a reasonable rate.
Pretty tricky when the drivers have just bought a CD of everything for such a ridiculous price.
Ah well, as long as the other 'photographer' sells 10 of his disks then I am sure he is happy... Covers the next repayment on his DSLR I guess
So which is the professional?
Beats me...

[JamesDoylePhoto]

Yes well, I always tell people when asked how do you turn professional in nature photography; I tell them to stick with your "real" job and just keep working at your photography as a hobby. I've been scaping a living as a professional natural history photographer/cinematographer for almost 30 years but I knew from the very beginning I was never going to be famous or rich....it was a life style choice and many of the "normal" things in life become secondary. As a nature photographer you spend many many hours in the field, usually camping or driving from location to loacation chasing the best shots, hardly a family activity year after year.

There are no regular pay cheques or benifits such as sick leave or long service, you just keep going because you love what you are doing, it is driven by passion and if your lucky you might make a few dollars along the way!

When I was living in the US, I have meet some of the big names in Nature Photography and they will tell you the same thing, it's not a get rich scheme being a nature photographer. Most will admit part of the reason they are where they are today is more to do with when they started eg; late 70's early 80's when being able to supply good photographs was a little easier because the cost of buying film and paying for the processing showed commitment, so there wasn't as many photographers trying to make a living. But these days with digital, anybody that has the time and "some experience" can produce a stock pile of images and flood the internet or market with images.

Also it has to be looked at from the buyers viewpoint, with so many images available to them and they also are running a business where time is money, they have to sift through all these images to find the one they want which just makes your image like a grain of sand on a beach.

Nature photography is a life style choice and not a way to become rich or famous!