Canon 60D vs Canon 7D and a few other questions...

[Cullen]

Hi,

Went shopping for my first DSLR body and have a budget of $1500-$2000 for body & lens. Came back a little more confused about what I want and then went online and got even more confused!

The choices are:

1. Canon 60D from a bricks & tile shop in Perth for $1400 (body only), then get them to tailor a package with lens, bag, memory cards etc.

2. Canon 7D from Digital World International for A$1375 (body only & this doesn't include insured postage, GST), and need to buy bag, memory cards, lens etc seperately.

My concerns with DWI are warranty, postage risk, GST, potential problems and the costs adding up with camera bags, memory cards, battery chargers etc.

I really want the 7D because I understand its a better camera but I have to admit I'm a little scared of overseas shopping for something so pricey.

What would you do?

Next is deciding what lens to get, any opinions welcome. I can only get 1 lens first up so want something that will be good for landscapes and handle portraits and kids/pets. I am happy to get more specialised lenses later on when the savings recover. The camera shop guy recommended a Canon 18-200 mm.

Thanks!

[daniel5600]

my thoughts are as follows...

Why do you say the 7D is a better camera than the 60D? how so? it is slightly more weather sealed, uses CF, has micro focus adjust, about 1 extra frame per second, processes video slightly faster. thats about it. do you need that stuff? the 60D is lighter and has a flip screen which is very useful and uses cheaper SD cards.
I dont see the 7D as a better camera, just slightly different. they will both shoot an identical photo.

I bought a 60D body from DWI 3 months ago. i love it and had a smooth transaction with DWI.
Sure its a risk for the first 12 months cause of warranty. but after 12 months, youre on your own either way.

as for lens, i wouldnt get the 18-200. id get a higher quality lens with less range. choose a range you need a get it.
for instance, i wanted a standard lens, so got a Sigma 30mm f1.4 for $450. amazing fast sharp lens.
the 18-200 will do a lot of shots alright, but id spend my money on a more specific lens that will do a few shots spectacularly.

dont know if that helps.

[pmack]

I've got a mate who was considering the two also.
Basically, if you are happy to buy through DWI, then I say get the 60D through them, as you are saving $483 list price, PLUS you will not pay GST as it should be under a grand.
So by saving over $600, think of that as a free lens!

Then with lenses, it depends if you ever plan to go to full frame.
I knew i eventually would, so I only ever brought one EF-S lens (the 10-22mm), all other lenses were EF lenses so compatible with full frame.

If you plan on staying with the crop sensor camera, think about the EF-S 17-55 f/2.8. About a grand.
I've not used it but from what i've read, an excellent lens. Maybe see if you can get one second hand if you think it's a bit expensive.

That should have used up all of your budget, so then later down the track you could look at a 70-200 f/4 (IS preferably) if you want more range.

A tidy kit with excellent image quality :)


As to concerns with gray importers, just do a bit of a search you'll see plenty of opinions.
It's an educated gamble pretty much. Are you happy to forfeit 1 year of genuine local warranty for a decent saving? It's as simple as that IMO. My answer is yes, but we are all different.

[MarkChap]

Daniel, hate to disagree with you but the 7D is by far a better camera than a 60D

Twin Digic 4 Processors
19 Cross Type AF points - Better focus in less light, Centre only is a Cross Type in the 60D
8 Frames per Sec - more than 2 frames per sec quicker than the 60D
Micro Adjust for the AF
Magnesium Alloy Frame
Configurable AF response via custom functions
Reprogram most buttons to a function that suits you - Less options on the 60D
Weather Sealed - Although the integrity is only maintained when using L series Glass

But then I suppose that depends on your interpretation of better, so maybe yes, not better, but whole lot different in lots of very good ways

[pmack]

agree with the above, just want to put in a disclaimer (one genuine thing wrong with the 7D IMO that has always bugged me)

"8* Frames per Sec"

*Except when in low light, and the metering system of the camera slows down the burst speed, even if the camera is in manual mode which should not require any metering.
(to overcome this you need to either press the exposure lock button, or depth of field preview button)

[phild]

I agree with Mark, don't underestimate the advantages of the 7D, particularly weathersealing and micro adjustment, also the ability to remotely trigger flashes (430 & 580ex) is a huge plus.

As for buying from DWI, they have an agent in Sydney who handles warranty, I bought a grey market 7D from DWI, ordered Tuesday, arrived Friday the same week, that's quicker service than I've had from any Australian dealer.

[MarkChap]

Which is exactly the same for ANY camera


agree with the above, just want to put in a disclaimer (one genuine thing wrong with the 7D IMO that has always bugged me)

"8* Frames per Sec"

*Except when in low light, and the metering system of the camera slows down the burst speed, even if the camera is in manual mode which should not require any metering.
(to overcome this you need to either press the exposure lock button, or depth of field preview button)

[fabian628]

you might look for a second hand 7D (one that may still be under warranty).
Personally, i purchased 3 new bodies before I realised you can get alot more value on a second hand body :th3:

[pmack]

Which is exactly the same for ANY camera

No. It is only because of the new metering system on the 7D (and potentially some others - i think 1D4). For some reason when in manual mode, the metering does not switch off, and it hinders burst rate:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=8729492&postcount=20
There's hundreds of posts flooding the net about this for the 7D, I can't find anything for other cameras.

anyway i've taken the thread off topic, sorry Cullen

[Butts]

No. It is only because of the new metering system on the 7D (and potentially some others - i think 1D4). For some reason when in manual mode, the metering does not switch off, and it hinders burst rate:
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=8729492&postcount=20
There's hundreds of posts flooding the net about this for the 7D, I can't find anything for other cameras.

anyway i've taken the thread off topic, sorry Cullen

Macca, solution is actually a Custom function setting. Option 2, CFIII.

Manual:-
C.Fn III -2 – AI Servo first/second image priority
For AI Servo shooting, you can adjust the priority for the first shot or the second and subsequent shots. It deals with two issues:

How quickly the camera will fire if you suddenly press the shutter button fully.
If the shutter button is held down for continuous shooting, whether AI Servo AF will always take time to ensure correct focus for each shot (which may result in slowing down the drive speed), or whether the camera will always fire at top fps speed (even if proper focus cannot be ensured for each shot in the sequence).
There are four settings:

0: AF priority/Tracking priority – this will give more time to achieve focus before releasing the shutter and then during continuous shooting, focus tracking will be given time to keep accurate focus.
1: AF Priority/Drive speed priority – like setting 0, the first shot will prioritise focusing. However, after that the camera will try to maintain the maximum shooting speed. This is useful if the subject is large and easy to focus on, or not moving over great distances.
2: Release/Drive speed priority – this will fire the shutter as quickly as possible for the first shot, not giving as much time to finding focus. For subsequent shots, the camera will continue to fire at the maximum frame rate in preference to giving time to focus driving. If you have to capture the moment at all costs, this is a good option to use.
3: Release/Tracking priority – this will work like option 2, in that priority is given to releasing the shutter, but for second and subsequent images, the camera will then pass priority to focus tracking, rather than trying to maintain the maximum frame rate.

[pmack]

Hey butts! you get around too eh? ;)
Still waiting for a big swell to shoot, why do they never fall on weekends!


Thanks for trying to help, but it actually has nothing to do with that custom function, as this issue has nothing to do with focussing.
This problem happens when you are in full manual, and even with the lens on manual focus.
If there were a simillar custom function for metering however, then it probably would help.

It's quite easy to reproduce, if you are in a room with plenty of light, put your camera in Manual mode, set it to a fast shutter speed of say 1/1000.
Then put your lens on manual focus, and make sure you are in the fast burst setting.
Fire away, and you should get 8fps.
Now either turn the lights off to darken the room, or put the lens cap on.
Fire away. You will notice shutter speed has dropped to around 4fps.

The reason is obviously due to the metering system.
However, logic tells you that the metering system should not be used when in manual (and a preset iso, so not auto iso)
Here is some of the frustration that hundreds of people have with this illogical logic.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/823708/0
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/942427
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=951202
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=179772
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=759335
http://photocamel.com/forum/canon-forum/116885-canon-7d-high-speed-continuous-shot-problem.html

In most situations this is not a problem fortunately, but if you are shooting in low light requiring higher iso's, or are doing strobe work, then yes it is a problem. Obviously if your shutter speed drops below a certain speed, then yes it will lower burst rate regardless, so this is only talking about situations where the shutter speed is quick enough to theoretically (had canon not been lazy with their design) get the full 8fps.

[macrocephalic]

If you plan on staying with the crop sensor camera, think about the EF-S 17-55 f/2.8. About a grand.

Is the Canon that much better to justify a grand on a 17-55 2.8? The Tamron 17-55 2.8 non-IS has a good reputation and is only $305 grey, or $430 for the VC (IS) version. From what I've read, the only thing you'll miss is the ring USM (full time manual and almost instant focus).

[pmack]

I don't know anything about the tamron, though the other simillar lens to consider would be the sigma which is supposed to be quite good.
Though it seems sigma lenses can be quite a bit hit and miss
http://www.flickr.com/groups/sigma17-50/discuss/72157625499475998/

[kiwi]

Sigma used to be hit and miss, theyve had a big quality turnaround in the last three years

[Cullen]

Hi everyone thanks for the replies so far.

I've been to 2 more camera stores today and have been recommended two different canon lenses. One is the canon 15-85mm and the other is the 18-135 mm. Any opinions? I'd rather a higher quality lens now and can get one more specialised to landscapes later on.

Thanks!

[agb]

The 15-85 is quite expensive, though it is a nice lens.It is about twice the price, recommended retail that is, of the 18-135 lens, which may or may not say something about it.
Have a look at some of the results of it here.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=760140
And the 18-135here.
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=767215

Have a look at the Canon usa web site and compare the MTF charts on that site.
here
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/ef_lens_lineup/ef_s_15_85mm_f_3_5_5_6_is_usm
and here
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/ef_lens_lineup/ef_s_18_135mm_f_3_5_5_6_is
May give you some ideas as the what they are both like.
It can become very confusing.

[pmack]

edit: - i was reviewing the wrong lens, i've never heard of the 15-85.
seems alright: "Overall, image quality from this lens is very good. It is nearly equal to that from the Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM Lens - an impressive and best-selling lens. "
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/reviews/canon-ef-s-15-85mm-f-3.5-5.6-is-usm-lens-review.aspx

[Max]

We were in the market for a 50D, 60D or a 7D and played around with them all. The 7D feels like a much more substantial camera and is nicer to use and hold, for me and the wife anyway. The 7D has a better focus system, but 19 point focus system seems overdone as we never use the full 19 points, but there is no question that when selecting only one point its very fast. Weather sealing was a big consideration, 100% viewfinder and a few extra control buttons that we preferred.

The 15-85 is a fine lens and a definitely step up from the 17-85 and will match the 60D or 7D well, those extra 2mm on the wide end are noticeable. I would rather buy primes for their quality and cost and even bigger aperture, but there is no question that the 17-55 2.8 iS is very good, just expensive.
I don`t have any speed issues either, when I first got it I did a test and got around 70 shots in 9-10s in large JPG, in large raw files it slowed down a bit after around 3-4 seconds not much, but then just kept going. Haven`t seen the need to do that in the dark.

Do consider the 550D, either one is a fine camera and the 17-55 or 15-85 and something like the 70-200F4 or the 70-300USM IS for more reach, will make a great combo. Handle both and consider that the investment is in the lenses and that body`s are more disposable or become outdated quicker.
No idea about DWI but google is your friend I used a mob from Brisbane.