CC required please.

[Roosta]

Do these simple words strick fear into the hearts of the AP regs?

Lately I noticed that when I and or others have posted some pictures for C and C, there seems to be allot of people entering the shop, looking, touching, but then put the item back down and leave.

Are my imagies that bad? Granted I know some aren't great, but I have posted pictures looking for help and also for other peoples perspective on them.

What is it that is driving this?

I mightn't have the most techanical ability or the best gear (Best brand tho), but I do see it as a means to add what the picture does or does not for me.

So whats going on?

[MBsa]

I have been cc-ing when i see a picture, unless IMO it is great, i offer a hint that i think would improve. I am still new to cc-ing and fairly new to photography so sometimes forget to cc. :o
I would love to have more cc on some of my photos too.

[mrDooba]

It happens to all of us. My last post had has 118 views and 12 comments(4 of those were from me) which equates to 7% of people looking will comment. Like yourself the only reason I post photos here is to have them picked apart. It very rarely happens. Most comments are simply encouraging.
A lot of people feel uncomfortable criticising someone else's work.

[ameerat42]

...people entering the shop, looking, touching, but then put the item back down and leave...



At time of my post there were 17 views and 1 reply. If I knew what you meant by this I could provide some better answer. But to hazard a guess at what you may mean, most people's images I see are past my humble comments. I usually manage some sort of reply when something is specifically in what I (think I) know about. I think you have fallen into that category in the past.
Am.
Edit: And one while writing.

[Roosta]

I'm not going to say I don't look and don't touch, but it seems to be more and more frequent, Look and don't touch as to, look at an image have a feeling for or help techanically, but don't offer. Some take that and learn from it, or some people get a kickout of people liking what theve created.

I'm not suggesting we all should for every image posted, but it is comforting I feel for people that do post an image looking for/asking for CC to get given some form of advice or criticism, whether it be in the positive or the negative. It is also good to get others perspective on things, but thats a personal thing.

ameerat42, humble or not, if you offer what you see honestly, people should take it that way if they have asked for CC, don't you think?

[neil70]

i mostly only cc a photo from the field i partake in and sometimes that is a little comment of encouragement.

[MBsa]

I agree, if we are asking for cc, we dont mind if it is positive or negative. that's the whole point. offer your opinion and suggestions to help us improve with our photography, after all, isn't that what the cc part of the forum is for??

[ricktas]

Happens on all forums. reply rate is generally 10% or less of the view rate.

[Thurston]

Im very new here and just as new at photography. I dont feel very comfortable CC'ing but I did manage to get my first couple done yesterday. Both on subjects which I feel most comfortable with. Most of the time however even if I like or dislike a photo I can't say why or how to make it better, so I stay quiet. I also found I didnt get as much feedback as I would have hoped which is frustrating, but I guess it goes both ways.

[Wandapics]

I am still learning by looking at others work & feedback. I am trying some C C'íng on topics I know a bit about.

[Mark L]

I like birds a lot, so I'll often look at a lot of posts in the bird section just to see the bird. If there is an obvious crop or reason why I like a photo, I'll say so. There are some great photos and "great shot" isn't worth posting. But, until I have my hands on a my DSRL (soon) and start posting images myself, I'm very loathed to be critical, until people can be CC what I do.
Not sure if that addresses your question, but I guess, like me, people will look because it interests them.

[peterking]

I didn't vote on your Poll as it does not offer the choice that fits my behaviour.
I look and touch and if I feel enough for the image I will comment honestly and I think not too harshly. If however I do not feel competent enough to comment then I will not. Having said that in the past others have taken umbrage at what I have written regarding another's images but I believe that they have missed the point of CCing.
There are images on this site that do nothing for me and it is those images I quickly click out of. Two so far tonight.
I believe a part of the problem is that you have to look at the thread to view the image and it is only then that you will see the image and wether or not it is of interest to you.

[7hump3r]

I picked "I prefer to LOOK but not TOUCH" It's the closest to the truth with me.. In all honest I am not good at speaking (READ: typing) out sometimes, Once I am comfortable I will be happy with being myself then you might see more comments and CC. It's not that I don't want too, it's just that I write it up and often feel the need to explain myself.. It gets long winded and I get put off from posting it.

I'll sometimes back myself into a corner and will post CC, but for the most part I am a lurker and I do just that.. Lurk..
I will try to post more CC So if you see me around and feel that I'm slacking feel free to PM me a kick up the backside :)

[Derek-C]

I try to give honest CC .

I do find that when CC given sometimes the OP doesn't reply either negative or positive and I then wonder "why bother"

One example was 111 lookers and I CC at about 50 views and that was it.

Derek

[ctorry]

I think alot of people new to photography, myself included, feel a little uncomfortable cc'ing at times as we unsure how to comment. I know that we should comment on what we see in the photo; however, we feel that there may be a number of key elements in the photo that we are yet to grasp.

I mainly cc on somebodies photo if I have had the pleasure of meeting that person and they know where I am at with my photography learning curve.

I have also just posted some photos of my son off to prep school and whilst I have had 23 views I have only received on comment.

[Roosta]

Thanks Derek and ctorry, This seems to be a trend at the mo, whether it's due to allot of newer members or whether people feel that their level of skill might'nt be up to a so called standard "exceptable" to be able to comment, but what is the level or standard I wonder?

[Dan Gamble]

I was thinking about this one last night and I feel that a simple change in wording might invite more responses and perhaps generate less fear.

I have always made a distinction between using the word "Critique" and the word "Feedback". I prefer to use "Critique" as little as possible.

Critique can be related to criticism or someone being critical and can have some negative connotations for some people. The word "Constructive" is added for specification and I think people still focus on the "Criticism" factor and might not see the "Constructive" of it so much..

Feedback is something that is more often viewed as coming from a place of positive support and assistance in helping someone improve.

Yes. It's just a word and in my experience with teaching and personal training I have found that I can relax the paradigms a bit and allow people to feel safer in asking for it and in-turn offering also.

Perhaps "CC - Constructive Critique" could be "PF - Positive Feedback" instead. Then it's very clear where our comments to one another are coming from.

My Two-Bob's Worth. :th3:

[kiwi]

I think alot of people new to photography, myself included, feel a little uncomfortable cc'ing at times as we unsure how to comment. I know that we should comment on what we see in the photo; however, we feel that there may be a number of key elements in the photo that we are yet to grasp.

I mainly cc on somebodies photo if I have had the pleasure of meeting that person and they know where I am at with my photography learning curve.

I have also just posted some photos of my son off to prep school and whilst I have had 23 views I have only received on comment.

There are 100's of ways to comment on a photo - just say what you think about it - it might be just "i like the colours", or "im not sure about the birds claws" ..... what you feel is personal to you but an insight into how people react to every image by every viewer

[Namus]

I'll throw down CC if I think I can offer a different angle on something, moreso than whether I can help 'improve' an image; i.e. not to say that my CC would help to make the image better necessarily, but hopefully it gives the person something to think about and try next time :th3:

+1 to what Kiwi said above as well :th3:

[Mark L]

Perhaps "CC - Constructive Critique" could be "PF - Positive Feedback" instead. Then it's very clear where our comments to one another are coming from.

My Two-Bob's Worth. :th3:

Perhaps it should be CF - Constructive Feedback. Not all feedback needs to be positive. Generally I agree with your post.

[Dan Gamble]

Perhaps it should be CF - Constructive Feedback. Not all feedback needs to be positive. Generally I agree with your post.

Yes. It ALL needs to be positive. Negativity is not constructive in any way shape or form.

Intelligent people should be able to provide useful information without delivering it in a negative fashion.

[junqbox]

Yes. It ALL needs to be positive. Negativity is not constructive in any way shape or form.

Intelligent people should be able to provide useful information without delivering it in a negative fashion.

Sorry, don't agree with you here. Not all feedback needs to be positive, otherwise you end up with a whole thread of platitudes of 'I like it' 'pretty colours' etc, when there may be a glaring element within the photo which could do with something pointed out. Intelligent people have the ability to put it politely though, rather than taking a negative tone, as opposed to a negative reaction.

[Dan Gamble]

Sorry, don't agree with you here. Not all feedback needs to be positive, otherwise you end up with a whole thread of platitudes of 'I like it' 'pretty colours' etc, when there may be a glaring element within the photo which could do with something pointed out. Intelligent people have the ability to put it politely though, rather than taking a negative tone, as opposed to a negative reaction.

I just feel that the distinction is; Commenting that a photo "has a good concept and can possibly be improved by..." and then explaining the how/opinion/technique is more constructive than saying "it's bad" and "you're doing it wrong".

The two methods could both be offering the same useful information and you can ensure that the first manner of delivery will be received more willingly and very likely be of much more use to that person. The person providing the feedback is likely to be heard and respected all the more for it as well.

How would you prefer to receive advice being offered to you?

[junqbox]

the ability to put it politely though, rather than taking a negative tone, .

You might have missed this part of my post

[Duane Pipe]

Well of late i haven't CCd many images due to being busy and only having enough time to browse the forum, but in the past I have commented where I could and mainly on things I can either relate to or know what advice to offer in the way of improvement.
Personally I have found that the responses to most my threads have been answered with good and helpful advice, Even if it is blunt and straight to the point... Kiwi ,:D but thats what its all about.
So feel free to CC couse I can take it

[Mark L]

Commenting that a photo "has a good concept and can possibly be improved by..." and then explaining the how/opinion/technique .....

Sounds like Constructive Feedback to me.

[Dan Gamble]

Sounds like Constructive Feedback to me.

Yes, and delivered in a positive manner. It's in the delivery. Glad you agree.

[Sobriquet]

In a completely different field assessing people we used Commendations (say something nice first) then Recommendations (ways to improve). I won't CC unless I can say something nice first and then offer a suggestion. Sounds very much like what is said above. The problem with forums is that the nuances of communication are lost (tone, posture, inflection of voice etc) and so people can be flamed so very quickly when it is perhaps not deserved so many opt not to say anything. It is also very easy to lack confidence and feel like an imposter if you offer criticism, the subjectivity of our passion does not help this at all. As Thumper says "If you can't say somethin' nice don't say nothin' at all." Walt Disney Bambi ??

[Dylan & Marianne]

"If you can't say somethin' nice don't say nothin' at all."

If we all abided by that, then sadly, noone would be improving.
It's just how you phrase the CC when you come across an image that you think has missed the mark that can be said "nicely" or nastily

I've had some people say I've "RUINED" photos from excessive processing
Perhaps a way to say 'ruined' without making the recipient feel small would be to say that you prefer the original for reasons X Y & Z
Then there's the S H ...T sandwich approach to CCing :

I like <insert reason> that you've done with this photo (bread slice)
However, I think that you could improve it by <insert reasons> (the S H ...T)
Once again, good effort <insert comment of encouragement> (bread slice)

[ving]

first up a small criticism... there is no gravy option in your poll.

I CC from time to time, usually if the photo evokes a strong opinion of some sort. lets face it, as much as i like macro a bud is a bug is a bug. some are colourful some arent and the photo is well focused or not... there is usually little to say about this type of photography from my IMO unless the tog has tried somethign really different (and this goes for alot of genres)

[kiwi]

Real thread: (or a semblance of one)

Great phot

Wow, love that colour

nice shot, thanks for sharing

its out of focus, keep your shutter speed up over 1/focal length

super

nice photo Jim, good to see you out again



which comment is more valuable - even though there's no fluffy words in that comment ?

[ving]

Real thread: (or a semblance of one)

Great phot

Wow, love that colour

nice shot, thanks for sharing

its out of focus, keep your shutter speed up over 1/focal length

super

nice photo Jim, good to see you out again



which comment is more valuable - even though there's no fluffy words in that comment ?they are all of pretty much equal value. its nice to know if ppl like your photo or not and yes also helpful to know where you may have gone wrong.:)

[Roosta]

I know some people aren't as articulate as others when it comes to providing their opion, whether it be of a technical nature or maybe what the image does for them, what emmotion it evokes personally. I can see Dylans point on the "sandwhich" method, which has merits and also it can be used as a filler, like tops/nice/love it, but could you have. Tell us what you really feel, please. As others have mentioned, the dirrect approach works for them, it's OOF, no DOF, TOO Dark what ever, but maybe not put across in a sensitive way, but thats the articulation I refer to, but atleast it's CC, as has been mention, not always warm and fuzzy, but it should be constructive, should it not?

[Dan Gamble]

Real thread: (or a semblance of one)

Great phot

Wow, love that colour

nice shot, thanks for sharing

its out of focus, keep your shutter speed up over 1/focal length

super

nice photo Jim, good to see you out again



which comment is more valuable - even though there's no fluffy words in that comment ?

It's a tough one. Personally - all are valuable in a way... I can see where you're coming from with the " its out of focus, keep your shutter speed up over 1/focal length". It's excellent information. I'm just probably trying to generalise given the diverse range of people who are AP members and post in the CC forums. We do need to consider who we're delivering the information to and how they might receive it or be able to grasp it. Of course.

Yet generally speaking I would imagine that people would (generally) be more receptive as a whole to "Great shot and it's a little soft (name place). You could correct that by adjusting focus/aperture." And then link to the library where the other information that you've stated is explained in more detail and with information they can use rather than just " its out of focus, keep your shutter speed up over 1/focal length". What's that mean if you don't speak tog-lish? ( Tog-lish... I like that.) ;)

It's only useful for some and to a certain level. In addition: If people wish to help out then it's good to also show people how they can help themselves in the future. And we have the means to be able to do it here at AP.

It might take a little longer to type and if we're willing to take the time to "CC" then it should worth doing it in a way that will support them in learning how they can improve their skills as well as encouraging them to do it at the same time.

People generally don't like being told their wrong either.... It's a human thing I guess.

[kiwi]

You can't say it's a great shot but out of focus, I think that's an oxymoron

I think people need to look in context of all the comments and not just one line

[Art Vandelay]

If a post already has a consructive comment, which you think is relevant. Do you move on ? Say I agree ?, or if it's genuinely a good shot, to you add a quick compliment anyway ? Even though you're really only saying good shot but wording it differently. :)

[David]

Went neutral and take the sandwich approach.. A, like this aspect (even if its just the composition or framing of the shot. or the colour tones) . .B, ..could have been improved by x and C. .. this is how I suggest you can improve X next time. Simple, not offensive, constructive critique .. its not rocket science if you think about it for a second.

[mpb]

I guess this poll is a classic example, at the time of posting there were almost 500 views and only 41 votes. I must admit I did not vote because none of the options really applied to me.

I provide comments when I think they will be of benifit only.

I sometimes find it difficult to find something constructive to say. This is due in part to my own lack of knowledge and experience. Sometimes it is because I am just looking, and frankly, too lazy to provide comments. I am trying harder to comment.

[mongo]

It is a fact – Mongo can not help himself ! He usually says too much – much of which says too little. However, he tries to be constructive- worst case scenario, he will have a bit of a giggle with the poster and others if the circumstances warrant.

Mongo is surprised at the relative high look rate ending up in a low response rate. As Rick said – about 10%.

Sometimes it is better to acknowledge the poster by saying something than not acknowledging their efforts at all. This does not mean you have to candy coat it – be honest but be constructive and polite in that honesty. Even if you have to say you just don’t get it or you do not like it and why

One quick observation: - new members (particularly those seeking as much CC as possible) should all think about having their “edit permission” say “edit OK – please provide details” if they really want some CC in their early days. Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words and being able to demonstrate your CC in words and picture is much easier and quicker to provide (and thus more likely) than having to ask permission and wait for a reply etc etc etc. If you do not want to change your edit permission generally, then, make sure you include an invitation to edit for that particular post in your post.

[jasevk]

If a post already has a consructive comment, which you think is relevant. Do you move on ? Say I agree ?, or if it's genuinely a good shot, to you add a quick compliment anyway ? Even though you're really only saying good shot but wording it differently. :)

Nice comment :D

[Camerashy]

Don't forget also that the CC threads are the main area in the forum for viewing members photos, and I for one as a relative newcomer learn a lot about photography just by looking at the photos and reading what others say about them. Just because no CC is being posted by the viewer does not mean that people are not learning.

[gerry]

Real thread: (or a semblance of one)

Great phot

Wow, love that colour

nice shot, thanks for sharing

its out of focus, keep your shutter speed up over 1/focal length

super

nice photo Jim, good to see you out again



which comment is more valuable - even though there's no fluffy words in that comment ?

looks like a flickr image comment list:)


If a post already has a consructive comment, which you think is relevant. Do you move on ? Say I agree ?, or if it's genuinely a good shot, to you add a quick compliment anyway ? Even though you're really only saying good shot but wording it differently. :)

I summed up what I thought about critique over in this thread (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?73312-Lets-ramp-up-the-critiquing!)

However I think its important to remember that if a image is posted in a CC forum, then both the poster and viewer have obligations, the poster, imo, should be looking for CC, posting 15 pictures in a thread imo is not lookign for CC, give people viewing your images some clues, you expect them to spend time CCing your images maybe try and explain why you struggled with a shot or why you choose a particular PP style... On the viewer/CC side what does a 3 word response give? besides increasing your post count and possibly stroking the OP ego...

Keep photography forums for getting quality CC and feedback and flickr and the like for showing off your images :th3:

[juliem]

New to photography and the forum. But a +1 from me on Kiwis comment. I am not always confident to cc as I dont know the terms... etc. etc.... but I recently posted my first photo and as a beginner the advice and comments were great.
So thanks Kiwi, even a newby has an opinion and out of those 100s of ways I know how a photo makes me feel, what I like, and even what I dont like.
My goal..... have a go!!!

[Ackie]

I have been a member of the forums for over a month now. Not a day goes by when I wouldn't look at the forums 5-10 times. ( iPhone app is awesome).
But I have only posted a couple of images.
I feel no incentive. I am trying to learn by asking for CC. And ways to improve.
My latest post has 72 views and 1 comment. Surely someone has an opinion to help me out...

[Roosta]

Happens on all forums. reply rate is generally 10% or less of the view rate.

Thats an interesting stat Rick, I see the views and replies in the forums, but never stopped to do the math. When you say on all forums, is this a feedback issue that worries you in regards to AP?

[Roosta]

I like birds a lot, so I'll often look at a lot of posts in the bird section just to see the bird. If there is an obvious crop or reason why I like a photo, I'll say so.

Bingo. 'If there is an obvious crop or reason why I like a photo, I'll say so" Good to see, doesn't need to be technical.

[Roosta]

I agree with you two (Dylan"DTOH"and Dave "Ving") The evoking of a emotion, isn't that what we try to achieve in our photography pursuits? The SH*T seems to fit and work in most situations, I'd rather that than, as you put it Dylan, the not so nicely phrased CC, blunt as Duane put it earlier, but I believe to give and recieve is better than nothing at all.

[Roosta]

Don't forget also that the CC threads are the main area in the forum for viewing members photos, and I for one as a relative newcomer learn a lot about photography just by looking at the photos and reading what others say about them. Just because no CC is being posted by the viewer does not mean that people are not learning.

Understand what your saying, but the idea of this thread was to see if there is a standard reson for what seems to be a general lack of CCing at the present time.

[Camerashy]

Understood Roosta. If you are looking for a reason for absence of CC here's my theory after just a few weeks here. The general quality of photos is so good on this forum that it's scaring off people from posting an average pic for CC, especially newer members. Who has the courage to post a "point and shoot" type image in the company of such illustrious photographers? The result is that the CC threads are being populated mainly by experienced (and excellent) photographers who others, especially beginners, dare not or cannot criticise, and the CC threads have become a poster gallery of superb photography. My suggestion to overcome this would be to have something like a new thread dedicated to posting ONLY beginner photos for cc, regardless of topic. Otherwise it's a bit like a beginner being asked to hang a picture in a photo gallery alongside an Annie Leibowitz. Do any other relative newcomers feel the same way?

[Roosta]

My suggestion to overcome this would be to have something like a new thread dedicated to posting ONLY beginner photos for cc, regardless of topic. Otherwise it's a bit like a beginner being asked to hang a picture in a photo gallery alongside an Annie Leibowitz. Do any other relative newcomers feel the same way?

Some interesrting points there, I wounder what the Mods and Rick would think of your idea?
The quality of most images has alot to do with the availability and use of quality gear, the price now on a good entry level DSLR And or (Point and Shoot) has dropped significantly and allows the entry level user a much better chance to capture a quality image, BUT, in saying that, if you never get out of AUTO, you wont get and appreciate what the DSLR can do when under your own control.IMO.

Thats when I found I got some great advice from AP Regs on this site, So I guess it's up to the individual whether they want or feel the need to put their images up for CC, but it should atleast evoke some emotion in us and we should be able to pass on that emotion by way of CC, dosen't always need to be techincal.

Also as "gerry" has said "However I think its important to remember that if a image is posted in a CC forum, then both the poster and viewer have obligations, the poster, imo, should be looking for CC, posting 15 pictures in a thread imo is not lookign for CC, give people viewing your images some clues, you expect them to spend time CCing your images maybe try and explain why you struggled with a shot or why you choose a particular PP style... On the viewer/CC side what does a 3 word response give? besides increasing your post count and possibly stroking the OP ego..." and I agree.

[gerry]

I probably sound like a broken record now, but I think you would get alot more quality critique if you say post a single image (ok lets say a couple), say your best from a session for critique. Anything past 4 images in a thread for me is just too hard and it becomes more about sharing images then requesting critique, note there is not necessairly anything wrong with posting a lot of images in a thread i just think it will dilute your responses to nice series etc.

I don't think banning the 'nice shots' phrase etc has any real significant benefit, its like putting a bandaid on a major underlying problem hoping it will fix it.

Take for example another popular photography site, you are not allowed to post a response less that 15 characters or else it does not count, in essence (imo) that has not meant people write better critiques, just fill it up with rubbish.

I think if you want critique (irrespective of your skill level), engage with the end user, ask for specifics, start the dialog and i reckon you will end up with a more meaningful thread and one which you will get better critique and a more fullfilled learning experience.

[ameerat42]

I was thinking about this one last night and I feel that a simple change in wording might invite more responses and perhaps generate less fear.

I have always made a distinction between using the word "Critique" and the word "Feedback". I prefer to use "Critique" as little as possible.

Critique can be related to criticism or someone being critical and can have some negative connotations for some people. The word "Constructive" is added for specification and I think people still focus on the "Criticism" factor and might not see the "Constructive" of it so much..

Feedback is something that is more often viewed as coming from a place of positive support and assistance in helping someone improve.

Yes. It's just a word and in my experience with teaching and personal training I have found that I can relax the paradigms a bit and allow people to feel safer in asking for it and in-turn offering also.

Perhaps "CC - Constructive Critique" could be "PF - Positive Feedback" instead. Then it's very clear where our comments to one another are coming from.

My Two-Bob's Worth. :th3:

My 2c reply:
Do not advocate a change in wording, but get it right and be comfortable with it. IMHO "feedback" is a fuzzy word that hardly substitutes in meaning for the likes of "critique" and "constructive criticism". After all, there are "negative" and "positive" feedback varieties. By all means use "feedback", but not to supplant other equally valid words.
(BTW, the strength of the AUD these days could make my 2c worth almost equal 3c.)

[ameerat42]

I have been a member of the forums for over a month now. Not a day goes by when I wouldn't look at the forums 5-10 times. ( iPhone app is awesome).
But I have only posted a couple of images.
I feel no incentive. I am trying to learn by asking for CC. And ways to improve.
My latest post has 72 views and 1 comment. Surely someone has an opinion to help me out...

Don't feel let down. It happens to everyone. I can't recall how you post, but asking for something up front usually helps, something like...
"I did this pano using [... some aspect of the procedure/intended outcome/statement relevant to the picture...]", and then seek some feedback/comments/opinions/hints/leftovers from the table.

After all, you do not take pictures just to get a response from a forum, (but I think you know that).

[ameerat42]

Understood Roosta. If you are looking for a reason for absence of CC here's my theory after just a few weeks here. The general quality of photos is so good on this forum that it's scaring off people from posting an average pic for CC, especially newer members. Who has the courage to post a "point and shoot" type image in the company of such illustrious photographers? The result is that the CC threads are being populated mainly by experienced (and excellent) photographers who others, especially beginners, dare not or cannot criticise, and the CC threads have become a poster gallery of superb photography. My suggestion to overcome this would be to have something like a new thread dedicated to posting ONLY beginner photos for cc, regardless of topic. Otherwise it's a bit like a beginner being asked to hang a picture in a photo gallery alongside an Annie Leibowitz. Do any other relative newcomers feel the same way?

I hope not! As a forum, people should be able to present/get responses no matter what level of photography they may be at. If this what you say were true, then this forum would be falling down in aim big time.