Commercial web site development

[Ford Kristo]

Can anyone provide some leads on getting a commercial photography website developed at a reasonable price?

That is, a site that:
1. can be easily updated by the photographer - both images and text
2. has e-commerce (sales) capability for digital and printed images
3. doesn't involve an ongoing parasite tax on your sales
4. doesn't involve selling your first born to pay for the development

I have searched the web, but have had no luck in finding a developer who satisfies the above criteria.

And then there are the web developers who tell you what you should have (this equates to their lack of skill) rather than designing to the specifications of what you know you need.

Thanks

[balwoges]

Its a learning curve but why not learn how to do it yourself? Dreamweaver CS5 is a good starting point plus a good text book. Good hosting services have e-carts which can be added to your website and provide tech support. If you intend to update the webpages yourself, its easy to make a mistake so why not learn from the beginning. You will be glad you made the effort as time goes by and think of the money you will save!

[smallfooties]

redbubble is free....

[Ford Kristo]

Thanks for the comments above. However:

1. I have Dreamweaver but I don't think I will live long enough to acquire the skills necessary. I would rather be shooting than typing html and producing a second rung web site. There are Content Management Systems that can do what I need but I just need to find the right nerd to design a solution.

2. Red Bubble - I want to offer clients and potential clients a professional web presence and high end, archival paper and inks. Red Bubble is not the vehicle for this.

Thanks again.

[I @ M]

Ausphotography site advertiser Photomerchant (http://www.photomerchant.net/) may come close to meeting your needs.

I do however find it a little hard to understand how you seem to want an absolute top quality job done for very little money.:cool:

[kiwi]

diy, www.servage.net

FREE simple website builder, FREE gallery2 image hosting, FREE ecommere plugins, etc

[MarkChap]

Host Gator (http://hostgator.com), a site supporter also offer very good hosting plans

[Xebadir]

Built my own with Dreamweaver, yes its not the flashiest and best site out there, but people seem to forget that flashy often turns people off and what people are there to see if your work.
To learn the dreamweaver stuff or at least give you an idea how to go about it try lynda.com, has some great tutorials...it does cost a little bit ($25 US a month...no required length) but very much worthwhile. You are going to struggle to find a web designer who meets all your requirements, and youd probably be better to do it yourself, though if you want to self maintain its probably going to be easier to use HTML. Ecart software isn't hard to get and ingrain using Adobe resources, as are inbuilt gallery creators.

The others suggest by the above may also be options. Something like MarkChaps is a very good example of what you seem to want from a photography website.

[mwphoto]

I have searched the web, but have had no luck in finding a developer who satisfies the above criteria.



Web site design is just like photography, you often get what you pay for. The easiest most affordable way is to do it yourself or use someone like Redbubble or Smugmug. If you want a top level professionally designed website without any compromise, then paying an experienced professional web designer to create one to your specifications is the way to go.

Either that or marry a web designer;)

[Ford Kristo]

Thanks folks. I will check out those links.

I@M - "I do however find it a little hard to understand how you seem to want an absolute top quality job done for very little money"

One of my business mission statements is to give my clients the highest quality product for a reasonable price - I expect the same! Paying many thousands of dollars and/or ongoing sales percentages isn't good business sense. Image sales on the web is a brave new world and there is no shortage of developers who want more than they deserve for their effort.

[kiwi]

Lol, they probably have the same respect, or less, for images and photographers

[Erin]

Thanks folks. I will check out those links.

I@M - "I do however find it a little hard to understand how you seem to want an absolute top quality job done for very little money"

One of my business mission statements is to give my clients the highest quality product for a reasonable price - I expect the same! Paying many thousands of dollars and/or ongoing sales percentages isn't good business sense. Image sales on the web is a brave new world and there is no shortage of developers who want more than they deserve for their effort.

LMAO! I'd find that comment offensive if I wasn't so used to hearing it already. Hehe

Mate... you spent what? $7000 (average) on a new camera set-up and gear? I just spent $15,000 on school fees alone for studying (and graduating) to be one of those developers, nevermind the extra few grand on software, computers, harddrives, new monitors and analogue stuff like pens, paper and paints. We sit there, hours on end, focusing on what the clients want (even if it's against our better judgment), designing and redesigning, tweaking and using our skills to provide kick-arse facilities from concept stages to implementation. Damned skippy I want to be compensated for my time and skill! LOL

If you want a fully-integrated commerce/gallery site that's been designed from scratch, expect to be paying around $1000-$5000 for someone fairly decent.

If you don't want to do that, then definitely use photomerchant. It's probably your best option.

[I @ M]

One of my business mission statements is to give my clients the highest quality product for a reasonable price - I expect the same!

Sounds like a match made in heaven then, you are going to provide totally gobsmacking images at bargain basement prices to the paying public after you have your web presence sorted out by the most gifted IT guru in the world for the price of a couple of beers.

Please do let us know how you go mate. :)

[Ford Kristo]

I put this post up to seek advice.

My comments spring from my experience with developers. To date, this has been less than productive and the prices I have been quoted are ridiculous.

It's good to see that smug sarcasm hiding behind anonymity is alive and well on the web.

[Kym]

Reality check... (I've been working in IT since the 70's)

In my previous job (IBM Software Architect) you could have had me for $2,100 per day plus GST. For that you got good advice and a solution architecture.

Ok, that's the top end of town, lets consider the competition system (unique bespoke development) here on AP. Even at a low $80/hr software contract rate it is worth around $20k now.

FYI we are about to hire some contract developers at work, you will normally pay $100 to $150/hr. You want System Admin, Custom Development and Graphics - they are not cheap skills.

A good custom commercial web site is 50-200 hours work [graphics, sys admin and programming] (also depending on features, eg. flash etc), which is why people use Redbubble and other pre-canned solutions.
It is unlikely to get all the skills in one person, usually the graphics will be a separate contract.

Yours is a commercial development for someone who intends to make $$.
AP on the other hand is a free service to which I'm happy to provide top level IT skills for the fun of it (it is really worthwhile).

[ricktas]

I put this post up to seek advice.

My comments spring from my experience with developers. To date, this has been less than productive and the prices I have been quoted are ridiculous.

It's good to see that smug sarcasm hiding behind anonymity is alive and well on the web.

Actually it is good to see members being open and honest with you about what you will get for what $$$. Maybe take on-board their advice rather than calling their comments 'smug sarcasm', eh. People are entitled to voice their opinions on this site, even if it does happen to disagree with your own, as long as they are not attacking you personally. A little respect for other views, even if different to your own!

[Ford Kristo]

Firstly, "Sounds like a match made in heaven then, you are going to provide totally gobsmacking images at bargain basement prices to the paying public after you have your web presence sorted out by the most gifted IT guru in the world for the price of a couple of beers.
Please do let us know how you go mate." Replete with smiley face!

This is not advice, a view or an opinion - this is sarcasm, pure and simple...

Secondly, thankyou to Kym for your rational, informed analysis.

[Kym]

@Ford ... I agree with Andrew's (I @ M) view 100% --- I just worded it differently :cool: Andrew's post did communicate the truth.

It really is a variation "Please do a full of pro shoot for me, bring all the lighting, do all the PP, and I'll buy you a beer and give you great exposure" but applied to software.

[Ford Kristo]

Well, again I reiterate, I began this post to get useable advice.

I didn't at any time state that I was offering the "two beers" equivalent as remuneration. In fact, I haven't been in pub for more than 20 years, so I wouldn't know what the BEER$ is worth nowadays. I do however, believe that the figures I have been quoted are excessive (>$6000).

It seems that assumption rules. Some in this forum assumed that I wanted to pay less than sweat shop rates; and I assumed that I would get some useful information that would assist me to find a solution to a question. Unfortunately, on this occasion, no one goes home with a cigar for either theory.

Now that I've used up my "Ask the audience", it looks like I'll have to phone a friend, Eddie.

[junqbox]

Everyone has a different version of what is a 'reasonable price', as you didn't provide an indication of this in the initial post it was inevitable it would follow a similar trajectory to the 'how much to pay/charge to do 'such n such' a job. Your opening comments weren't all that complimentary to anyone who works in that field, of which there are literally millions across the world.
As with any project, without a clear brief from the beginning, things get messy and expensive. Without knowing your full intentions, the RedBubble solution is probably a good way to stick your toe in the water without going bust on paying for a website, before you're certain of the volume, breadth, etc., of your venture.

[ricktas]

Unfortunately comments like:

* doesn't involve an ongoing parasite tax on your sales
* doesn't involve selling your first born to pay for the development
* Image sales on the web is a brave new world and there is no shortage of developers who want more than they deserve for their effort.

come across as seeking someone cheap, and that web developers generally are parasites and overcharge! Maybe it is a case of miscommunication or poor choice of wording, but it is what is reflected back in the answers from several members in this thread. So any replies that fit your 'it seems that assumption rules', are just replying to the wording you have given us. So rather than assume everyone else is wrong, maybe a quick review of your own posts might reveal why assumptions were made.

[ricstew]

A bit off topic but hey I just did a quote for a custom made corset....you know the type.......think steel bones ( imported ), custom pattern, grommets down the back, fully laced, steel boning in the front ( also imported )........it will suck you in and push you up and turn you into a true S shape ( Ok guys think Queen Victoria NOT Victoria's secret ) for a plus size :) Many many hours of work........ Well blow me down ........no it couldn't be ready next weekend.........no I am not cheaper than Ebay......by all means buy one from Ebay......no I will not alter one from Ebay and please don't come to me if the dang Ebay thing cuts you or falls to pieces...............you get what you pay for :) :crike:
cheers
Jan

[kiwi]

$6000 in my world (commercial software development) is about 5 days work, or $100 an hour (by the way quite a reasonable without being excessive rate for a photographer). Sounds about right for custom web development on any real consequence.

[Kym]

Daz... Can I quote you at work ? :lol:

[kiwi]

Sure Kym, just don't mention my real name

[Kym]

Just to fill everyone in on the joke. The company Kiwi works for supplies high end software to the company I work for (it even works rather well :p).
Lets just say they charge a little more than $100/hr for services. :eek:

[kiwi]

Yip, im not really sure of the charge rates for small web developers, but if it's less than $100 an hour I'd be really surprised

[rellik666]

Just a side note, my work recently had their website redeveloped, it is now a very simple site with some interaction but not a lot and I provided many of the pictures.

This site cost about $6000 to produce and was well worth the money. As a very part time developer (i.e I can write a site if I have to) I know how much time and effort goes into an effective site. And to get a good result it costs time... QED it is costs money.

I am pretty sure there are web developers out there for every single price bracket....and most I wouldn't go near...you have to find one that produces the result you are looking for....no-one knows what that will cost until you explain it. A cheap company will produce a cheap site....it is the same with anything....you do get what you pay for.

I can provide you with the developer we used if you like.

[Redgum]

And just keep in mind there are other alternatives to those already covered - with a few stipulations of course.
Many universities and TAFE colleges will do web site development free of charge for selected applicants as part of their stundent development program. But you should allow at least one semester, maybe two for completion. The job will be managed professionally and it forms part of the assessment process.
The language in you application will need to be smart and businesslike as there is plenty of competition. The results can be spectacular.

[mcdesign]

Just to add my bit, it takes months to develop and design a site like the one you want, nobody works for nothing, so apart form doing it yourself and going through the long winded process of learning the different programs to do it with, (adding a cart is a brain taxing job apart form learning CS Style sheets!) Redgums idea sounds good if you can wait, sorry I can't be more positive, but it isn't a just pick up and do business!

[mwphoto]

Well, again I reiterate, I began this post to get useable advice. I do however, believe that the figures I have been quoted are excessive (>$6000).

It seems that assumption rules. Some in this forum assumed that I wanted to pay less than sweat shop rates; and I assumed that I would get some useful information that would assist me to find a solution to a question. Unfortunately, on this occasion, no one goes home with a cigar for either theory.
.

Useable information: $6000 is about the minimum price you should be looking at for your requirements - and the very valid reason you were given Redbubble and Smugmug as viable alternatives. What you have said you require is a product that will take a large amount of time to complete by someone with extensive skills in the relevant areas. Those skills take many years of study and experience to develop - and that will cost you good money upwards of $6,000 unless you do in fact employ the services of a website 'sweat shop'.

I have just had my website re-designed, I am able to update everything myself, it includes an online shopping cart system for purchasing prints and digital downloads for my event photography, a separate section for portrait print purchases (as they are different pricing structure to event photography), and a separate section for purchasing my Photographic Art via Redbubble that is integrated into my website design (as far as I know this is completely unique, but despite its deceptively simple and straightforward appearance it has taken extensive design and programming to achieve).

I've done alot of the work myself under guidance and this has been a massive project with ongoing tweaking to resolve some apparent minor things that are actually complicated programming issues. I have been assured that anyone else requiring a similar thing from scratch would be looking at around $15,000.

Excessive? Absolutely not, if I had done it all myself I'd be charging double that!

So while you may not like the accurate information you received from your 'Phone a friend' I wouldn't be expecting anything different from Eddie either.

[Ford Kristo]

Roo,
I would appreciate the contact details.

Regards
Ford

[Ford Kristo]

Thanks to rellick666, Redgum and mcdesign.

To ricktas: My comment re parasites relates to web site providers that slug you 10% on your sales as well as charging ongoing costs for using the service.
So, we have the situation where you pay for a print and framing and the web site people charge you 10% on your costs as well as your profit. Add the GST and you have a 20% impost on the client. I can't see that this is fair or reasonable.

I have been consistently told by people who have graphics heavy, commercial websites that they paid around $4000 for the work. When I approach the same developer the price is well in excess of $6000 for not a great deal more functionality. In this thread we have a prices of $1000-$5000 "for someone fairly decent", $6000 and $15,000. Confusing???????? I'll say!

I did not, in fact, ever say any of the responses were wrong. Some weren't helpful, and I made comments to that effect. If someone wanted to know what I had been quoted, a simple question would have sufficed.

[mwphoto]

I have been consistently told by people who have graphics heavy, commercial websites that they paid around $4000 for the work. When I approach the same developer the price is well in excess of $6000 for not a great deal more functionality. In this thread we have a prices of $1000-$5000 "for someone fairly decent", $6000 and $15,000. Confusing???????? I'll say!

Its no different or any more confusing than say, finding a wedding photographer - some will charge $500 some will charge $15,000 - they are all providing the same service of photographing a wedding but there are other factors that will influence prices.

If you have been given quotes by companies that are higher than you consider reasonable for little difference to what you know they charged other people for similar websites, then perhaps what you are asking for and consider 'not much more functionality' is far more complex than you think, or you are approaching web designers in a similar manner to how you started this thread and thereby putting them on the defensive?

[kiwi]

Besides, how can you call people in the photographic service business parasites without any obvious idea of commercial reality or business models....it's a small world.

[Ford Kristo]

Well, quite easily.... I typed it in the box.

[mwphoto]

:scrtch:

[edk]

* removed : members with under 50 posts and 30 days membership are not allowed to discuss commercial sties : refer to the site rules : admin *

[Erin]

I have been consistently told by people who have graphics heavy, commercial websites that they paid around $4000 for the work. When I approach the same developer the price is well in excess of $6000 for not a great deal more functionality. In this thread we have a prices of $1000-$5000 "for someone fairly decent", $6000 and $15,000. Confusing???????? I'll say!




Let me expand on my comment so it's less confusing. $1000-$5000 for "someone fairly decent" does not equate to "someone who is brilliant and will do everything you want". That's the price that you'd be looking at for a fairly new graduate or mostly inexperienced person or someone who does not make a living off what they do. More experience = more skills = higher cost for time/results. The more popular a designer is, the more time-poor they become, so the price goes up. Perhaps the developers that did your friends' site realised he was under-charging for the amount of work that they were doing and revised their costs accordingly. Perhaps they've expanded their business and now have employees who assist and need to be paid. Business is ever-evolving.

[xkellie]

removed! Site rule breach

[EdZz]

Have you tried freelance website development?

There's a fair few around you could inquire about, but most of them do not include shopping cart, but hey you could always get an obligation free quote.
But hey, as everyone else has said if you pay $6,000 (or what ever it is), you are then promoting your work or what ever it is you are selling and thus will earn more than your expenses

[ricktas]

For Info : The member who started this thread is no longer an AP member. They contacted me the other day and asked that I close their account.

[EdZz]

Oh.. shame, i really did think i had the answer for her.. haha
oh well, hope she found what she was after at an affordable price :)

[whatsthatbeeping]

For anyone else interested in the "cheapway method of website design"........Buy a template from these guys (http://www.templatetuning.com/) then learn Dreamweaver.

I had never touched dreamweaver till January this year, now I have one site that I setup using the ecommerce template from those guys and a second that I did from scratch for my Photography business.

Check out my first attempt (www.melbournediamondexchange.com.au) and my web page (http://entice-photography.com)
The domain and hosting for mine was 56 bucks all up and the diamond website including template was 350 bucks.

Don't be sitting on your hands after your website is up and running as there is a little thing called SEO that needs to be constantly worked on to get your page up near the top. Most people don't realize how important marketing is of your web page for it to really make an impact on your traffic and sales conversions