View Full Version : Just a rant...
I'm actually rather cheesed off right now... At a few things! After going through a fairly lengthy process of identifying my fixed costs, sale costs, allowance for expenditure etc etc, I'm finding that I'm far more comfortable in quoting people my standard prices, even people I know... But I'm also finding myself increasingly frustrated when potential clients suggest what they consider a fair price!
For example, I had a plus sized model approach me for a shoot to supply images for a piece in an online magazine... In lead up to a talk she's been asked to deliver in the US. Her reply to my quote was that it was much higher than she expected. So I ask what her budget was, to which she replied "around $50". I asked her to reconsider her budget, and she came back with $200, which was to include hair and makeup, with unrestricted use of 50 high res images.
Another was a request for a quote from a friend of my brothers, for their wedding. After sending a formal quote detailing apotheosis particulars, including a modest discount, I received a reply stating that they were shocked that they weren't getting mates rates since they know my brother...
Another recent one was a query which was referred to me via another 'photographer' whom I know, asking how much I would charge for a portrait session with her family, and supply of all images on disc. After replying with my price, the client went back to the other 'photographer' and booked a session for $80, and was supplied with 200 images on CD a week after the shoot...
I know it's been discussed time and time again, and it comes down to the fact that most people cant see the value in photography these days, but I just wanted to rant and vent my frustration! I accept that some people won't believe my services aren't worth what I'm asking for, this seems to be a common theme among many photographers I speak to... but seriously, to be asked to work for peanuts, even after you explain that you actually have costs is just plain rude IMO.
So how do you handle these types of queries?
ricktas
07-01-2011, 7:38am
Recommend someone dearer than you to them. Say, give xxxx a call and get a second quote.. Hehe
detailing apotheosis particulars,
Oops, I phone auto correct. This should say "all the particulars"!
Recommend someone dearer than you to them. Say, give xxxx a call and get a second quote.. Hehe
Hehe, maybe that's what the other 'photographer' pulled to secure her $80 job!!
OzzieTraveller
07-01-2011, 7:57am
G'day jase
I find this all the time mate - people who off-the-cuff reckon that my price is too high
My weekend workshops fee is $295 for 15hrs over Fri nite + Sat + Sun [& discounts are available for 'mates rates'] and there's a max of 10 to give people a fair go
People often say to me "that's a lot for a camera course" ... so I refer them to several other internet & magazine published adverts for apparantly-similar workshops
Another 'tog in QLD is also doing 'country photo workshops', asks $250pp with 12-people minimum - dunno whether he gets his numbers
Here in Canberra a local pro is offering a 5hr 'intro' workshop for $250, in Sydney another is offering a weekend away for $2295, accommodation not included
So asking prices are all over the place ... I ask what I consider a 'fair' price and I guess that you do also.
Each of us then will sleep soundly knowing that "we're doing the right thing by our own professional standards"
Hope this helps a bit
Regards, Phil
farmer_rob
07-01-2011, 7:58am
But all you are doing is pressing the shutter button a few times, and copying a few files....
Seriously, stick to your pricing - you have worked it out, and you are not a charity.
I think a lot of Australians are cheap, and are constantly being told by advertising and the government to demand lower prices. They do not want to pay what something is worth, or even what it costs - unfortunately, you either have to put up with their complaints or not sell to them.
Perhaps ask the objectors what they do for a living/how much they earn on a daily basis and see if they want to come and give you x hours of free/discounted service.
I don't think your issues are limited to photography - selling any service (e.g. plumbing, electrical work, irrigation work, pump repairs - all areas I have been involved with in the recent past) result in people saying "oh, that's too expensive - all you did was y". People fail to acknowledge the cost of equipment, vehicle expensives, training... and don't value time. Perhaps it is because so many people are salaried employees who don't have to bear responsibility for a business succeeding or failing.
BTW, I reckon the $80 photographer won't be photographing in 5 years time - but that doesn't make it any easier for you.
So how do you handle these types of queries?
With the greatest respect;
I am tired of hearing the professional fraternity sook about how they can no longer extort, or charge premium prices for their services.
Get used to it, because it won't be getting any better before it gets worse.
I have said it countless times before, things in the photography industry have changed, people can do much more with digital than they could with film, ease of access to cheaper technology, free Youtube training vids for PP applications etc etc. Many people no longer consider it necessary to pay the sometimes extortionate prices photographers charged in days long gone, and they certainly don't see it worth buying photog priced prints when places like HN, BigW etc will print 8x10/12 for less than the cost of a coffee.
Many people don't feel that they should pay licensing fees, or suffer limited use licences for images they have paid someone to take, I agree with them. If I pay someone to take images, then in my opinion they belong to me and I would never pay someone who would not provide copyright to me.
I feel for you because your chosen profession is a difficult one in which to make money, and I would dare say most pro's who make a liveable income do so from commercial clients who need to pay royalties or for limited licenses to use images (that is also changing rapidly - they too are demanding all rights), because I find it hard to believe many pro's if any at all, can make a liveable income from the general publics demand.
Again, I have to ask, are photographers any different to the tight, unrealistic clients they complain about? When was the last time you went into a pro camera supplier here in Australia and paid the full Australian retail asking price of a pro piece of glass or camera body? Do those same pro's who are crying about customer expectations ever pay HN, DSE, Ted's whichever retailer, the marked price for gear or, do they too seek a discount not only for camera gear, but for their lounge, new car, 60" LCD TV etc which I'm sure the retailer is often thinking is ridiculous.
The pot often calls the kettle black, hypocrisy at it's finest in alot of cases I think, and it seems some get very defensive and teary when the shoe is on the other foot, but that isn't often something pro's who cry about tight clients like to talk about......
With the greatest respect;
I am tired of hearing the professional fraternity sook about how they can no longer extort, or charge premium prices for their services.
Im not a full time photographer, but all I'm asking from my clients is that my costs are covered and I make some money for my time and effort on top of that... No different to what you would want I suspect...
farmer_rob
07-01-2011, 8:42am
With the greatest respect;
I am tired of hearing the professional fraternity sook about how they can no longer extort, or charge premium prices for their services.
Get used to it, because it won't be getting any better before it gets worse.
...
There is a difference between premium pricing and making a living wage. I think "extort" is emotive and misguided. At the same time, basic economics suggest you charge what the market can bear - if the market bears high prices, good and well for those that can charge it.
However, the financial structure of the photography industry is changing, like any other area with low barriers to entry. The market can no longer bear the high prices - but unless it can bear charging a rate that makes a living wage, there won't be a photography industry (or at least a consumer portrait photography industry.) What is significant is that technological change has rapidly reduced the barriers to entry in photography, where it has been much slower in other industries.
...
Many people don't feel that they should pay licensing fees, or suffer limited use licences for images they have paid someone to take, I agree with them. If I pay someone to take images, then in my opinion they belong to me and I would never pay someone who would not provide copyright to me.
That is a negotiating issue - the supplier (photographer) needs to decide what he can afford to sell and at what price; and the buyer has a set of requirements and a price he buys at. If copyright is important, either the deal is done at a price or not done at all. It is up to the individuals involved to decide - not one-size-fits-all.
[
...
I feel for you because your chosen profession is a difficult one in which to make money, and I would dare say most pro's who make a liveable income do so from commercial clients who need to pay royalties or for limited licenses to use images (that is also changing rapidly - they too are demanding all rights), because I find it hard to believe many pro's if any at all, can make a liveable income from the general publics demand.
Again, I have to ask, are photographers any different to the tight, unrealistic clients they complain about? When was the last time you went into a pro camera supplier here in Australia and paid the full Australian retail asking price of a pro piece of glass or camera body? Do those same pro's who are crying about customer expectations ever pay HN, DSE, Ted's whichever retailer, the marked price for gear or, do they too seek a discount not only for camera gear, but for their lounge, new car, 60" LCD TV etc which I'm sure the retailer is often thinking is ridiculous.
The pot often calls the kettle black, hypocrisy at it's finest in alot of cases I think, and it seems some get very defensive and teary when the shoe is on the other foot, but that isn't often something pro's who cry about tight clients like to talk about......
If you can't have a whinge here, where else can you go?
G'day jase
I find this all the time mate - people who off-the-cuff reckon that my price is too high
My weekend workshops fee is $295 for 15hrs over Fri nite + Sat + Sun [& discounts are available for 'mates rates'] and there's a max of 10 to give people a fair go
Regards, Phil
I think it's more annoying with the fact that I've gone to the effort to analyze my costs, to make sure I'm not charging too little or too much... I'm sure these types of clients must think I've plucked a number from nowhere and quoted it!
Seriously, stick to your pricing - you have worked it out, and you are not a charity.
Agreed, perhaps it will have the natural effect of restricting my workload down to how much I can take on as a part timer... Hehe
but all I'm asking from my clients is that my costs are covered and I make some money for my time and effort on top of that... No different to what you would want I suspect...
Exactly, and that is why I left the NSW Police Service and became a miner. I no longer get spat at, assaulted, put up with intoxicated idiots, have to prepare hours worth of pointless brief material, conform to the rules, suffer cancelled rest to attend court days for $65K/yr. I didn't feel the reward was worth the effort and risks. I now work 50% of the year in trying conditions (for different reasons - heat/dust/noise etc) and I earn more than double what I did at the cops!
I would love to be a pro photographer (my lack of skills aside) but I know that what I feel is a good return for my effort, costs, etc is simply not achievable in the current (or foreseeable) future market.
It is in no way unreasonable to expect to make a living, but reality is that photography is certainly one difficult sector in which to do it, and that is just the way it is, like it or not. I still adduce that your retail camera guy or retailer of anything is no different, he/she wants to make a living too, but we often ask for what they would feel are ridiculous discounts....
The reality is that you compete every day with photographers that aren't trying to run a profitable business, don't care about costs, market rates, the profession or anything else than
1/ they got some more practice
2/ they would do that portrait shoot for fun if they had to
3/ the $80 goes straight into the back pocket. Awesome
4/ everyone else is doing it
5/ I have a well paid mon- fri job that subsidizes my camera gear etc
Now, I'll be bold here and suggest none of this will change and that's how exactly 99% of hobbyists approach charging and that it's only going to increase based on the number of $2000 dslrs getting sold in 2010 compared to 2001
The reality is that you compete every day with photographers that aren't trying to run a profitable business, don't care about costs, market rates, the profession or anything else than
1/ they got some more practice
2/ they would do that portrait shoot for fun if they had to
3/ the $80 goes straight into the back pocket. Awesome
4/ everyone else is doing it
5/ I have a well paid mon- fri job that subsidizes my camera gear etc
Now, I'll be bold here and suggest none of this will change and that's how exactly 99% of hobbyists approach charging and that it's only going to increase based on the number of $2000 dslrs getting sold in 2010 compared to 2001
Yes I tend to agree with that Darren, I still need to have my sook though... hehehe
I just find it somewhat insulting for someone to effectively say "I like your work, but I think you should do it for me at your cost"
It's ok to sook, I empathize totally. You know what, I've simply given up worrying about it. If I feel like doing a free, $80 shoot I will, if I feel like charging full rates I will. Depends on how free I am.
virgal_tracy
07-01-2011, 10:21am
Jase, you are looking at this from the perspective of someone who wants to act professionally and (possibly) turn this into a fulltime gig. Based upon your research and costings, you would be the type of business that would not fail because you know what it costs you to stay in business. As Kiwi has said, you will not be able to compete with someone who never intends to go F/T and just wants to do it for fun / a little pocket money.
In reference to your examples and how to respond some simple questions would suffice. To the model, I would be asking her how much she is being paid to do something that she does everyday for free - talk.
To the friends of your brother's I would ask them if you were going to be invited to the wedding as a guest. If not then you are a vendor not a real friend. If they were going to invite you to the wedding, how much would they expect you to spend on a present. If they answer with a realistic figure $100 for eg. then offer to shoot the weeding for your normal cost and give them a discount to the amount they would expect as a present.
The portrait shoot, you will never be able to compete with someone who is effectively giving the client money to do the shoot for them.
Stick to your guns and you will find that there are some people out there who value your skills and pay what you are worth.
Mongo known nothing about professional photography but thinks the following from his experiences and observations.
The days of digital cameras for all; computer programs that do it all for you etc etc, makes everyone think they can be their own photographer or that anyone can be a photographer. There is no longer the art and exclusive mystery there once was in the film days where only a good photographer could achieve the result. Yet, today (as in yesterday) very good skills are still needed to produce those special images only a good professional can produce. The fact is, that in a sea of mediocrity produced by everyone having a little camera these days (even children), people forget that there is a huge gap between those results and those of a good professional. Some can take a good picture but how many can take a really great picture ??? That is the effective difference we are talking about.
It seems these days that unless you are a well known photographer to the “stars” you do not get the respect and acknowledgement you deserve from the general public but you do from your peers. Unfortunately, your peers are almost never your clients - so you cannot make a living from them. In difficult environments like this, competition further breaks down what a photographer can reasonably ask and hope to get.
Like any other business, the pro photographer must place value on their skill and ability and charge reasonably for it. The very least that has to be covered are all outgoings and expenses, allowing something for their care , skill and responsibility and then to show some sort of profit. Anything less than this is just not realistic or viable either from the photographer’s point of view or the client’s (if the client is being fair dinkum)
The sad fact is that most people want something special for that special event . They then contact a professional photographer for that purpose but then want to pay as little as possible so that it may no longer reflect the original importance they placed on getting a pro to achieve that purpose.
Mongo’s, last thought is that pros who have not performed well or done the wrong thing by the client (and there have been some from time to time) have not help the industry at all.
Mongo understands your frustration but has no answers – only theories, observations and understanding.
wayne i'm tired of retailers whinging about how unfair the internet, high aussie dollar, and overseas orders are cutting into their multi million dollar profits. since you seem to be the anti whinge authority, please write hardlynormal a letter too. thank you. p.s. as a full time photographer (very tough on my gear), i do pay local retail prices minus any discounts that the retailer offers me for having an account with them. I think you'll find many other full time photographers do too. Its probably more the part timer/hobbyist who would wait for orders from overseas - so in my opinion you may just be barking up the wrong tree.
in my opinion too - jasevk part of your problem may be the perception you are generating of yourself as a part timer etc. When people walk into a fully set up studio, they already know that a 50 dollar budget is not going to suffice. so they dont, and thats fine.
an alternative and successful musician (Badly Drawn Boy) in England did an interesting social experiment on this - he usually packs out a medium sized theatre/venue for $100 a ticket to perform his songs for 2 hours - yet - he went busking for a whole day, in the London subway, playing exactly the same songs he does in concert, and apart from the few fans who recognised him, no one thought anything of it. Best (worst) of all, he made 15 quid for the whole day. (reference for this story is ABC radio TripleJ) apply this scenario to Photography, very similar!
bricat
07-01-2011, 11:31am
Now I am an Ameteur with a capital A. Over the Xmas dinner with extended familly neices and nephews I took along my trusty Canon 7d and 420 ex flash. I fired off plenty of shots and found a couple of good ones that I printed on A4 and gave to the appropriate people. Word got back to me that they didn't realise I was a proffessional photog. Well if that's all it takes then I'm joining the ranks. Oh wait a minute I didn't get paid. Damn I must still be an ameteur.
And with your rant; the industry is going through tremendous change and those that adapt will survive. The banking sector,the car industry, hardware stores, corner shops have all been through upheaval. You need to develop a niche market or go very very big to survive. Like Wayne I was a member in Vic for many years and changed to the car industry. Out of the frying pan and into the fire. At least I won't be attacked with a knife or have a gun pointed at me, spat on kicked, punched and called a dog for doing my everyday job. My body is still recovering from shift work. So it appears every part of life has it good and not so good points and some you can grin and bear and some you can't so you move on. What about these pro's going around places like eating houses. They would only get a couple of clients actually buying the prints. They must be making some money? It really is all about enjoying life no matter which job you do. And really we still have a roof over our heads and can eat 3 squares a day. cheers Brian
wayne i'm tired of retailers whinging about how unfair the internet, high aussie dollar, and overseas orders are cutting into their multi million dollar profits. since you seem to be the anti whinge authority, please write hardlynormal a letter too. thank you.
I'm tired of them too, but are they not the same as the whingeing photographers? The high AUD, lower retail/wholesale margins and access to OS sellers via the global shopping portal known as the internet means they can no longer achieve their extortionate and premium prices just like many photographers are finding, and they, like the photographers come out crying about it. When local resellers can compete, I will shop locally. I do my bit to send the message to the profiteering wholesalers/retailers/manufacturers that if they want local business they need to start competing in the global market.
No whinge police here, I am probably the biggest proponent on this site of voting with your $$ and getting the best deal you can by buying your gear overseas, rather than support local robbers. Evidenced by the fact that the only piece of photography gear (I'll call it photography gear as it is exclusively used for that) I own that was purchased from Australia is..........several sets of 'AA' Imedion rechargeable batteries and their charger for my speedlights.
Every single piece of gear I own otherwise (the list is extensive) was sourced from overseas suppliers simply based upon price and/or availability.
What I am tired of is the whingeing about something you can do very little to change within the photographic industry. If you can't make enough $$ as a professional photographer, then change your occupation or deal with the fact that and be happy, instead of crying that everyone else is doing things at lower prices and taking your work away, or that cheap DSLR's are leading people to do it themselves.....
Yip, another interesting observation I'll make t that its not often that ft pros actually whinge, it's those caught between hobbyist and professional, and it's usually a realization that there's a big leap from sustaining a hobby to sustaining a career....part time or full time.
jasevk
07-01-2011, 12:25pm
Yip, another interesting observation I'll make t that its not often that ft pros actually whinge, it's those caught between hobbyist and professional, and it's usually a realization that there's a big leap from sustaining a hobby to sustaining a career....part time or full time.
Oh I hear plenty of full time pros whinging too! The plan I've developed for myself is based purely on sustaining a part time operation, and building my studio over the next 3 years, and my pricing model supports this obviously, but that won't stop me getting annoyed by the attitudes of some potential clients.
Scotty72
07-01-2011, 1:08pm
I tend to agree with Wayne insomuch as he talks of the hypocrisy of it.
We all look for the bargain: We will never again pay many thousands for a TV; if you are a parent who pays $$ for private schools, you will whine when the fees increase; if you send them to a public school, you'll complain when it asks for the voluntary contribution (about half refuse); we shudder at the prices for a day at the (insert your favourite sport here), we complain when the tradesman charges $xx to 'just show up'.
My wife is a specialist dentist; a regular dentist often needs to refer patients to her for a specialist's opinion. This often doesn't involve her doing anything, just giving her professional opinion as to what needs doing - by the regular dentist. Well, most (not some) patients whinge and whine when she presents them with a bill, "... but, you didn't do anything! You bloody dentists just rip people off!"
No doubt some photographers are amongst those who whinge.
My profession is no different: people want qualified, specialist teachers to privately tutor their kids but want to pay us as if we are uni students.
Same for day care: most parents want to pay peanuts for day care then complain when they get monkeys. I can't understand how parents want to leave their kids in the hands of underpaid workers - I would hope that parents love their kids more than that.
A mate of mine needed to get his GP to fill in a form for workers' compo. This required the doc to give give professional opinion based on an examination. My mate had an almighty rant about the $50 charged.
And, how many people complain at having to pay a $15 (or whatever) gap? Unbelievable! (except for pensioners and the chronically ill perhaps) Worse when they complain with a cigarette hanging from their mouth about having to pay for a doctor.
I think every profession, quasi-profession, trade or occupation suffers the same problem; respect for skills, experience and costs has been eroded and we expect that everyone's services (other than our own) should be valued very lowly.
Do photographers always offer full price? Perhaps then complains from photographers like that above would be legit.
I've changed my business model -
Make it no risk for the client - nothing up front - they pay (more sometimes) if they like you work.
Its working - no risk for the client - if they don't like - they don't pay.
Its the way that all businesses are changing - you must adapt.
Want a copy of my busines plan - mmm i'll charge you for that cause i've spent about $2K talking to people about how to do it ( and all i got was words...)
I understand and accept what Scotty and Wayne are saying... But the difference is that I don't expect retailer to sell me goods below cost... If they did I certainly wouldn't complain, but for example if I was bargaining for a price at harvey Norman, and I was honestly told that the price I wanted was actually below cost price, I would not push it to still get the low price, that's the difference here.
I make no secret to my clients that my price is based on my costs plus hourly rate plus gear maintenance and upgrade allowance based on average number of jobs per year, most have not had any issues with my pricing during 2010, but there are a few who seem to be rude enough to push for lower rates despite being told that it's not even covering my costs.
Maybe the answer is to target your marketing to the type of clientele you want to attract, those that are willing to pay for the service you offer. Avoid the mates and friends situations.
like mongo said...
photography is open to every tom, dick and harry... DSLRs are within easy reach of most these days. The trade is suffering because of it and there is little that can be done. Eventually the hacks will be weeded out but in the mean time 20 more will replace them... I have a feeling that unless youhave a huge name for yourself then in the near future pro togs will be offering very low prices.
what can ya do huh? :confused013
Scotty72
07-01-2011, 3:40pm
I don't understand why you are complaining?
I am sure that if you (or I) visited your local Ferrari dealer and he offered to sell you the latest and greatest model, straight off the showroom floor, for less than a Hyundai Getz, you wouldn't hesitate to buy 10 of them. So long as you get the goods legally and in saleable condition, you wouldn't consider if he's making a loss or not.
Plenty of farmers make losses (or very skinny profits) from their produce, do any of us go into the supermarket and demand we pay more so they can make a decent living? Do we demand the upping of import duties to give local retailers and suppliers a fair go?
Do we demand to pay higher taxes so our nurses, mental health workers and teachers a more competitive salary? Or, do we accept they they are paid less and less when compared to other professions and not give a damn (unless you are one of them).
Not likely. We hunt for the bargain / demand less taxation.
To be honest, it is not the customers obligation to ensure that you are properly compensated for your time, or to maintain your equipment. If the manager at Hervey Norman gave you a line about the rent he has to pay, the increasing electricity bill or the fact that his staff wages have gone up 5%, you'd probably just walk out and think the guy was a lunatic.
We all set our prices; if the customer wants lower then, they can accept the risk of a lesser quality.
Scotty
farmer_rob
07-01-2011, 4:21pm
Too often, the customer (be it of photography, TVs or farm produce) wants the high quality, but not the high price - they then bitch and moan that "beef is too expensive" and "the budget steaks are too tough". Australia as a market is conditioned to want the "bargain" product, and hence, there iis not much of a market for the "quality" product. The more suppliers in the "quality" market, the more go out of business, because it is too small and there are fixed costs that cannot be beaten by "productivity improvements" and "efficiency" (and in some cases "economy of scale"). I could bore you rigid on the issues of making a living in primary production (I don't), but I'll try to be kind :D and stop typing now
pcbermagui
07-01-2011, 5:27pm
I started to comment on this tread but it got so long that I've put it in a new one.
pcbermagui
etherial
07-01-2011, 7:55pm
At the end of the day, customer set the price.
If Joe Bloggs with his $1000 kit can take the images someone wants for $50 then that is what it is worth. But if someone wants photography of their wedding and they are worried Joe Bloggs will stuff it up, they might find someone with more expertise they can trust more and pay a little more. It all comes down to what customers value the service at.
Life is full of examples where new technology or developments have made things more accessible to the public and devalued other industries or services. Email vs Posting a letter, Internet or TV vs newspapers, live tv vs attending the event, dvd/video vs going to the movie theatre...
As unfortunate as it is for some people just have to learn to live with it.
At the end of the day, customer set the price.
.
I disagree, I set my price, and if the client doesn't like my price, they're more than welcome to stop pestering me and go elsewhere! For every silly query I get, there's never been long between them and a serious client who accepts my quoted price.
Scotty72
07-01-2011, 9:55pm
I disagree, I set my price, and if the client doesn't like my price, they're more than welcome to stop pestering me and go elsewhere! For every silly query I get, there's never been long between them and a serious client who accepts my quoted price.
Perhaps what Mic meant was that vendors no longer have the power over the customers they have gotten used to in this country (as evidenced by Gerry Harvey and co having their dummy spit when other retailers want to play in the sand-box).
Customers increasingly have a range of options that they did not before - and the vendors relied on this to keep prices high. In fact they still do - look at the way publishers of all types of media seek to lock us out of the US online market (Apple, Kindle etc.) where books / songs etc are up to 50% less than what they cost in Oz. The excuse given is that distribution agreements designed to protect the local market forbid overseas competition. Local vendors seem to want to ensure there are fewer options.
Similar for togs: 2 decades ago, it was expensive to buy equipment, difficult to learn and customers had few choices.
Today, equipment is cheap, there are a million ways to learn pretty well / quickly and customers have a myriad of choice.
Vendors who want to live in past, restrictive markets are doomed to fail - the internet can not be un-invented, customers can not be fooled into believing they have no option any more.
Scotty
etherial
07-01-2011, 9:57pm
I disagree, I set my price, and if the client doesn't like my price, they're more than welcome to stop pestering me and go elsewhere! For every silly query I get, there's never been long between them and a serious client who accepts my quoted price.
That's right they will go elsewhere and pay the price that they want to pay, therefore they pay what they want - they set the price. The clients you are getting have set themselves a different price point and matches yours, so market to them and forget the rest.
Redgum
07-01-2011, 10:11pm
You're all wrong except Lani. This debate has little to do with "photography" or even your skills. Rather, it's all about marketing, selling ice to eskimos, as we use to say. Forget about photography as a profession and see it as a "product" or "service". Determine who you want to sell your product or service to and then go into business, not the other way round or you are bound to fail.
The first question you should ask yourself as a photographer is "what are my products?" Just one product/service will never work. The second question is "who needs to buy my product?". If you can't answer either of these questions then you should become a professional banker/teacher or whatever. (mind you, the same questions will arise).
I see a number of you have diligently set prices, created business plans etc., but how many have/will speak to their potential clients (in depth) about prices and plans before you start? Saves a lot of heartache.
Etherial got it right when he said "customers set the price". If you don't believe that you won't last in business. And if the prices they set won't pay the bills, do something else but don't whinge about it. That's the nature of business and always has been since the days of bartering.
One other thing that stands out in this thread is the single mindedness of those who want to go into business. Packer/Murdoch and every successful business person is pluralistic in his/her business activities. So, when photography is quiet you make pancakes or drive buses or make movies. Often you end up with multiple business activities each covering the other in their quiet times. The more these businesses are aligned with each other the easier it is to manage. My primary activities are filmmaking, photography, teaching/training and writing, allied with each other this keeps me in work all the time.
My weekend workshops fee is $295 for 15hrs over Fri nite + Sat + Sun [& discounts are available for 'mates rates'] and there's a max of 10
Now this isn't going to win me any friends, but any decent discussion has to have differing points of view.
If you teach on weekends only, and have 4 weekends off a year, then you'd be running a total of 48 courses per year. If each course earns a gross $2950, then this gives you a gross income of $141,000 per annum for working part-time and having all the rest of the week to yourself. Now that's obviously a simplistic look at it, and there are various overheads and other factors to consider. However, it's still a pretty generous income for working part time. It's a higher income than most people get working full time.
We are all photographers here, some for fun and some for profit - but just as the big retailers are finding out, photographers need to adapt to the laws of supply and demand and look at what is reasonable rather than what we think we are worth. Gerry Harvey is finding out the hard way in Victoria that you can't cry poor in a market where consumers can do better elsewhere (don't know if you non-Victorians are aware of the current storm on that issue).
Personally, I feel that there are many services which are over priced and photographers are often amongst those. This invariably brings out howls of complaints because obviously none of them would acknowledge any inflation in their prices. However, as others have noted - the digital age is now a reality, and acceptable photography can be produced more easily and more cheaply than ever before. If photographers continue to expect no change in their pricing structure, then perhaps they will notice increasingly lean years ahead. If they want to survive then they have to adapt, just like all the other industries which have had to adapt before them. Recent years are filled with companies who have either adapted or failed, and the failures are those who would not adapt.
OK .... you can start throwing stones now ....... ;)
I'm sure red gum your right tha you can't survive in any business these days, or most anyhow, with either diversifying or beung very specialized...the middle ground is just that
I also believe that for every 1000 potential clients that will only spend $100 on a simple family shot there are 10 that will spend $1000
Redgum
07-01-2011, 11:06pm
Don't quite get your point, Kiwi. With 1000 clients you would make $100k. With 10 clients only $10,000. To earn the same income you would need 100 clients at $1000. Much harder to do. Unless you run Casinos or build bridges, specialisation can be very difficult and capital intensive. People like Russell Crowe worked in bars most of his life until he won an academy award (specialist actor). After you make your fortune (good marketing) you can do whatever you like. Beforehand, you need to work in a bar so to speak.
I guess Bobt would say that Russell Crowe is overpriced? Probably is but I'm not going to tell him.
Anyone can be a professional photographer but only a good diversified business person can make money.
No, sorry, my point was that for every 1000 clients that there are that would pay no more than $100 there will be 10 that will pay $1000 or whatever - the challenge is to find those 10
peterking
08-01-2011, 12:11am
Holy snapping duckshit!
Less than $20.00 per hour.
You're cheap.
I start at $35.00. I don't care how many people are involved.
I just quoted someone $200.00 to restore their computer and they went for it. After 24hrs consideration and talking to other people.
My philosophy is "Thats my price. If it doesn't suit you then I'm OK with that but I have a good idea what you're going to get for less." I'm not going to compromise my self.
So there's a way to fix it, in my simplistic way of thinking. Ok, so charge them $50 for the photography and an hour or so of your time. Anyone can click a button on a camera these days, right? At least that's the paying public's way of thinking. Then charge them $50 per hour of post processing you do for the 50 quality, flawless, press-ready images they're expecting. 1 hour per photo. 50 x 50. $2500 done. I know 'togs who are making a mint this way for model portfolios (they work through modelling agencies) in the states. This is where I've made my extra pocket money too.
Of course, that means learning new skills, but them's the breaks. Adapt, evolve, survive, succeed.
Good thinking, Erin but all that your punters will do is book 2 hours of post processing ($100) and expect you to give them 50 photos for $150. If it gets more complicated they go somewhere else.
flashpixx
09-01-2011, 1:57am
You're all wrong except Lani. This debate has little to do with "photography" or even your skills. Rather, it's all about marketing, selling ice to eskimos, as we use to say. Forget about photography as a profession and see it as a "product" or "service". Determine who you want to sell your product or service to and then go into business, not the other way round or you are bound to fail.
The first question you should ask yourself as a photographer is "what are my products?" Just one product/service will never work. The second question is "who needs to buy my product?". If you can't answer either of these questions then you should become a professional banker/teacher or whatever. (mind you, the same questions will arise).
I see a number of you have diligently set prices, created business plans etc., but how many have/will speak to their potential clients (in depth) about prices and plans before you start? Saves a lot of heartache.
Etherial got it right when he said "customers set the price". If you don't believe that you won't last in business. And if the prices they set won't pay the bills, do something else but don't whinge about it. That's the nature of business and always has been since the days of bartering.
One other thing that stands out in this thread is the single mindedness of those who want to go into business. Packer/Murdoch and every successful business person is pluralistic in his/her business activities. So, when photography is quiet you make pancakes or drive buses or make movies. Often you end up with multiple business activities each covering the other in their quiet times. The more these businesses are aligned with each other the easier it is to manage. My primary activities are filmmaking, photography, teaching/training and writing, allied with each other this keeps me in work all the time.
thanks for this, I wanted to write it but am too lazy to...
I understand and accept what Scotty and Wayne are saying... But the difference is that I don't expect retailer to sell me goods below cost... If they did I certainly wouldn't complain, but for example if I was bargaining for a price at harvey Norman, and I was honestly told that the price I wanted was actually below cost price, I would not push it to still get the low price, that's the difference here.
The Harvey Normans of this world often sell" below cost" They have a rebate system whereby a certain number of sales gives "X"discount but more sales gives" Y "discount. I checked around for tyres a while ago and best price I got was $350. per tyre. As luck would have it, it was at the end of the month and through a contact I paid $250. per tyre. Since I bought 6 tyres I saved considerably. I am sure that retailer didn't lose money because he is still in business.
My point being I bought the same tyre at a cheaper cost to me. So if I needed a pro tog I would get 5,10, or 20 quotes. No skin off my nose and I would choose the one I felt comfortable with. So I actually would pick the price point.:)
farmer_rob
09-01-2011, 8:10am
Most retail/distributor systems have volume-based discount structures - I am sure it also applies in the camera marketplace. Unfortunately, this often plays into the hands of the big retailers (e.g. Harvey Norman) who get the volume to have large discounts and can sell and make a profit at a price often under what a small retailer can buy the product for. Often, service and knowledge is what gets squeezed out of the margins.
I don't think pro photographers have entirely the same discount issues at play - they are really selling a service, not boxes they buy in. So, I can't see them selling an extra wedding shoot at a discount at the end of the month "to get the numbers up". (However, it is sensible for them to look at ways of make good use of the things that cost them - e.g. offer more photos at a discount for a shoot that has been set up, or rent equipment for a week rather than a day - cheaper rates - and line up 5 days work using that equipment, passing on some of the discount.)
By all means shop around, but I think there is a problem if you get the cheap price from low-service supplier b and go back to high-service supplier a, who gave you all the help in the first place, and ask for the product at supplier b's price. The end result will be no high-service suppliers.
Scotty72
09-01-2011, 8:49am
That is the way the world is going.
When was the last time you got service at a service station? There may still be the odd place where the guy pumps your petrol and checks your oil and wipers but, the last I can remember was at the Dickson shops (Canberra) circa 1990. Ask most gen Ys about full service stations and they will laugh at you, "why would you pay extra for that?"
Same for most retail joints: there was a time you could expect sales staff to know their product and spend time explaining the options. Now, some limply faced kid who thinks service is mumbling, "yeah, whaddya want mate!"
Even the products themselves are coming without manuals or guides (think apple iPhones etc) or are written by someone in China who really shouldn't; you're just expected to work it out.
It is ultimately the consumers decision that service has been eliminated from retail. We expect low prices so, if shop A invests in quality staff we will go there, pick their brains then walk across the street to shop B and buy (for less) from the mumbly kid with the attitude paid (desrvingly) far less. Soon, shop A has little choice than to employ their own mumbly kid (after sacking the quality staff).
Now, shop A can whinge all it likes about it but, that is how the world is going.
They either provide for the small amount of people who prefer service to price or they adapt.
Eventually, even the small niche dries up... Can anyone really find a full service garage anymore?if so, how many more cents per litre is it?
Scotty
Can anyone really find a full service garage anymore?if so, how many more cents per litre is it?
Scotty
Yep, every second servo in Tasmania mate, and the servo down the road from me was usually the cheapest in the area with full service!
But Scotty, there's a massive difference between demanding a reasonable price and demanding a price below cost. The latter is obviously not sustainable.
Scotty72
09-01-2011, 9:12am
I meant, a full service garage within civilisation :cool:
I'm telling you, they are as rare as hen's teeth in Sydney, Brisbane and (I assume - I frequent there far less often) Melbourne. I can't remember any in my recent trek around western NSW and Qld; nor my trip up to Bundy this past November for Dad's funeral.
Around the three big (population) states where most of the retail battles are fought out, they are very rare indeed.
When I go into a shop (petrol, camera, clothes, whatever), I don't know, or care, what their costs are and neither do you (if you're honest). The last time you bought petrol (where their margins are so tight, they make their $$$ from us buying chocolates, smokes etc), did you really (hand on heart now) go in and say, 'Considering your costs and a fair profit margin, let's negotiate a price per litre.' Or did you just find the cheapest price on the sign out front?
If you didn't offer the guy a fair price for his petrol (remember, he is prob a struggling small business too), then it is very 'rich' for you to demand he treat you as some special case - you squeeze him but, how dare he squeeze you? Sounds very hypocritical to me.
Scotty
farmer_rob
09-01-2011, 9:19am
That is the way the world is going....
Maybe, but I don't have to like it.
...They either provide for the small amount of people who prefer service to price or they adapt.
Eventually, even the small niche dries up...
The problem in Australia is that the niche is too small to be sustainable - we are a small, geographical widely dispersed marketplace (ironically, best served by the possibilities of the internet). A more geographically concentrated marketplace, with a larger population is more able to sustain small niches.
Civilization? You mean there's something else across the water??? Hehe :)
But the thing is Scotty, I don't question the price of my fuel, because I already know how little they make per litre, and I buy meat and produce from the grower direct when I can, and I rather pay a good local mechanic decent rates for my car service... Because I was raised to believe in supporting local community. So I also expect that other people show me the same respect when I tell them that I'm actually quoting 'cost price' for their portrait session, and that they won't rudely demand that I do it for a loss!
Perhaps it's wrong or unrealistic to expect that, but I would've categorized that sort of thinking as common decency?
Scotty72
09-01-2011, 10:15am
i think thats reasonable
I don't. And the evidence, as demonstrated by consumer trends, suggests that you are in a rapidly shrinking minority.
Actually, I too have nostalgic tendencies:
I pine for the days of good service: when the person serving me actually knew my name (hey, I'd settle for the person serving me actually interrupting their conversation about what a hottie Justin Bieber is & looking me in the eye);
I'd love if the guy at the camera shop actually knew what a reverse grad filter was; and
I'd be over the moon if you could ring our major telco and speak to someone in Australia who could actually speak in English so as I did not have to guess at what they are trying to tell me.
But, if all the prices for these things were increased 20% to pay for my nostalgic wish list, I'd find an cheaper alternative. I suspect 90% of Australians would too. Well, the 90% of Australians who shop at Woolies / Coles would: they are already happy to put the local produce guy out of business by buying imported fruit, veg and processed foods.
Scotty
Scotty72
09-01-2011, 10:22am
Civilization? You mean there's something else across the water??? Hehe :)
But the thing is Scotty, I don't question the price of my fuel, because I already know how little they make per litre, and I buy meat and produce from the grower direct when I can, and I rather pay a good local mechanic decent rates for my car service... Because I was raised to believe in supporting local community. So I also expect that other people show me the same respect when I tell them that I'm actually quoting 'cost price' for their portrait session, and that they won't rudely demand that I do it for a loss!
Perhaps it's wrong or unrealistic to expect that, but I would've categorized that sort of thinking as common decency?
With all due respect...
When any business tells me they are offering me something 'at cost', my BS meter goes off. I start to think, 'Is this guy really willing to make no profit? Is he really making zero from this because I am such a good customer?'
So, if you are really offering yourself at cost, may I suggest you register as a charity? :D
geoffsta
09-01-2011, 10:29am
To me the client knows there are three different types of photographers.
1. Professional. The client knows that they are going to be charged accordingly.
2. Hobbiest. The client thinks that the TOG is doing it for his own enjoyment, and will give them what they think they deserve. (generally the cost of the blank CD)
3. Sideliner. (Someone that has a normal job, but wants to make a bit extra through photography) This is a bit harder for the client. A clear sense of thought would be that the TOG already has a job. Why pay him/her the same as a professional. He/she doesn't need to feed the family / pay the bills just from photography. And pay them the same as a hobbiest. They don't take in the need for training, equipment or consumables that is required to give them what they want.
These are my thoughts on this subject..........
jasevk
09-01-2011, 10:50am
With all due respect...
When any business tells me they are offering me something 'at cost', my BS meter goes off. I start to think, 'Is this guy really willing to make no profit? Is he really making zero from this because I am such a good customer?'
So, if you are really offering yourself at cost, may I suggest you register as a charity? :D
What a sad and mentally exhaustive world you must live in! I'd hate to be so paranoid that someone is trying to constantly screw me!
Actually, as a part timer, at this point all I want is for my costs to be covered and to slowly raise some capital, all part of my business plan - therefore are all costs :D
Scotty72
09-01-2011, 10:52am
To me there are three different types of photographers.
1. Professional. The client knows that they are going to be charged accordingly.
That is true. If you know you're getting a premium product / service, you may well happily pay extra for it.
For eg. I refuse to buy my fresh fruit & veg from the supermarkets: frankly, their product is crap.
We buy from a local organic, in season mart. It can cost up to 20% more but, we are happy to pay because we are confident that: it is fresh (not up to 12 months old - in cold storage); not pumped with preservatives / pesticides; and not imported.
As an aside, the Xmas / new year period is terrible as the organic mart closes for 10 days; we are forced to eat (and often regurgitate) Woolies rubbish (shudder).
But, the difference with a local photographer is customers may not know what they are getting. People are wise to scams where sample portfolios are much better than the photographer (some steal other's and represent as their own etc). So, if you have a name and people know the are getting the premium, they wont risk it and go for price.
In fact, many people may know there is quality but, still not be willing to pay the premium. Visitors to our house comment on the tasty, fresh fruit and meat; even ask where we get it. Most reply, once we tell them, 'I'm not paying that much, that's a rip off.'
I think that most people have 1 or 2 pet products for which they are willing to pay a premium - but mostly, they will go the cheapest. Just think of day-care (most don't value that); most parents are happy to leave the most precious things in their lives in the hands of the cheapest provider who, in turn, pays the least to their staff. Was it last year then fed govt tried to increase the minimum staff to kid ratio, forcing up the cost to parents - oh the howls of protest by parents when their kids welfare is increased.
But, I am way off topic and ranting... as per the thread :D
Scotty72
09-01-2011, 10:55am
What a sad and mentally exhaustive world you must live in! I'd hate to be so paranoid that someone is trying to constantly screw me!
Actually, as a part timer, at this point all I want is for my costs to be covered and to slowly raise some capital, all part of my business plan - therefore are all costs :D
So, in other words, you are happy to undercut the pros by devaluing their product so as to sustain your hobby into business. But, when it's done to you?
And, if you are so naive and trusting when a salesman cuts you a 'special deal'... You must be Honest Jim the used car sales guy's favourite customer.
jasevk
09-01-2011, 11:07am
So, in other words, you are happy to undercut the pros by devaluing their product so as to sustain your hobby into business. But, when it's done to you?
And, if you are so naive and trusting when a salesman cuts you a 'special deal'... You must be Honest Jim the used car sales guy's favourite customer.
Not at all, I've identified all my costs, seriously ALL of them, including business objectives for the next 3yrs, and priced around that, I'm probably not as expensive as the established pro - but I don't currently have a studio to run... Therefore my overheads are alot lower than the pro running a studio.... So no Scotty, it's not undercutting, it's my pricing model based on an extensive costing excercise. But I Should've expected that you'd argue for the sake of arguing :P
jasevk
09-01-2011, 11:10am
And, if you are so naive and trusting when a salesman cuts you a 'special deal'... You must be Honest Jim the used car sales guy's favourite customer.
You don't know me at all to call me naive, and for large purchases, I dot homework and know what I hope to pay before I buy... So please Scotty, just quit with the attacks bro ;)
Scotty72
09-01-2011, 11:11am
Oh good, I was waiting for personal jibes, based on perceptions of personality. It adds so much to the debate. Shall I retort with, "You must be a Nazi!", or should I stick to the issue, boring as that might be?
Redgum
09-01-2011, 11:21am
The Harvey Normans of this world often sell" below cost" They have a rebate system whereby a certain number of sales gives "X"discount but more sales gives" Y "discount. I checked around for tyres a while ago and best price I got was $350. per tyre. As luck would have it, it was at the end of the month and through a contact I paid $250. per tyre. Since I bought 6 tyres I saved considerably. I am sure that retailer didn't lose money because he is still in business.
My point being I bought the same tyre at a cheaper cost to me. So if I needed a pro tog I would get 5,10, or 20 quotes. No skin off my nose and I would choose the one I felt comfortable with. So I actually would pick the price point.:)
Let me correct two points here. Harvey Norman never sell below cost. Their buying power is such that they simply REDUCE the cost from their supplier. With end of run products they simple tell the supplier to take back unsold stock or reduce the suppliers price.
You did well with the tyres. I owned a number of Goodyear franchises for a couple of years and the biggest margin I had on buying tyre stock was around 7%. In other words I would buy a tyre for $93 and sell for $100 and from that margin would have to fit and balance. The stores would be completely dependent on-selling other services to make a profit. This is different to "company" stores with a margin of say 25% or major retailers like K Mart but even so other mechanical services is the only thing that allows tyre stores to survive. So, your $100 per tyre discount either put the store out of business (which is common in that industry) or you did other business which off-set the huge discount. The only other alternative is to sell you an "unknown" brand which is neither safe or economical in the long run.
Often, a large discount is the most uneconomical way to buy good product.
What's reasonable Scotty that if someone requests I work for them that's it's not going to result in me losing more money than I make, could be babysitting, photography, or being a doctor
I'll simply say no, that's reasonable
Well I am with Jasevk. If the product is available locally or can be in acceptable time frame even if I have to pay a bit mire I always buy local, then I further differentiate and buy from the shop with service. I don't push them to match the Harvey Normans of the world on price provided the rest if the equation falls in their favor IE knowledge service with a smile etc.
You would be amazed at how often supporting a local business like this pays off and how often they will come up trumps given the chance and when you do not try to preasurise them.
When I bought my 7D and kit I looked on the web to get an idea of prices, went to Harvey Normans and the only other big Camera store in town, then just on the off chance I rang the little Kodak store in town which I did not even think sold SLR's, and you know what, the guy had tons of knowledge, a great friendly attitude and 15 mins later called me back with a price that walked all over the other locals by a huge margin and was damn close to the best on the web. I now go there every time I need something and I don't shop around., I might pay a couple of bucks more now and then ( not often I bet though) but I don't care because I like shopping there and I want to make sure locals like this stay in business. Jasvk is right, Tassie may be a bit different to the North Island, but service is alive and well if you care to support it :) and we all should.
Redgum
09-01-2011, 11:34am
Not at all, I've identified all my costs, seriously ALL of them, including business objectives for the next 3yrs, and priced around that, I'm probably not as expensive as the established pro - but I don't currently have a studio to run... Therefore my overheads are alot lower than the pro running a studio.... So no Scotty, it's not undercutting, it's my pricing model based on an extensive costing excercise. But I Should've expected that you'd argue for the sake of arguing :P
Back on topic. You've mentioned a couple of times a desire to have a studio and that's part of your business plan. I guess that you are aware that the trend for professional photographers is quite the opposite now, a great number discarding the horrendous cost and overhead to share facilities. This is not new of course, the film industry has done this for a hundred of years. Perhaps a bit more research may help you here.
I mention this because it gives you an opportunity to compete with established photographers and still make a small profit whilst you develop your business.
maccaroneski
09-01-2011, 11:39am
Easy, tigers. I think that we should in fact stick to the topic.
Excellent point Redgum. I think that it is certainly something that should be more than considered, both from a purely cost sharing perspective as well as from a "potential synergies" perspective, particularly if the participants aren't in direct competition (and to a lesser extent, even if they are).
For example, when in private practice as a solicitor, I shared office and administrative facilities with an accountant and a mortgage broker. I later extended this to another solicitor, albeit one who specialised in debt recovery (I didn't), and we all experienced the advantages referred to above.
Scotty72
09-01-2011, 11:45am
Well I am with Jasevk. If the product is available locally or can be in acceptable time frame even if I have to pay a bit mire I always buy local, then I further differentiate and buy from the shop with service. I don't push them to match the Harvey Normans of the world on price provided the rest if the equation falls in their favor IE knowledge service with a smile etc.
You would be amazed at how often supporting a local business like this pays off and how often they will come up trumps given the chance and when you do not try to preasurise them.
When I bought my 7D and kit I looked on the web to get an idea of prices, went to Harvey Normans and the only other big Camera store in town, then just on the off chance I rang the little Kodak store in town which I did not even think sold SLR's, and you know what, the guy had tons of knowledge, a great friendly attitude and 15 mins later called me back with a price that walked all over the other locals by a huge margin and was damn close to the best on the web. I now go there every time I need something and I don't shop around., I might pay a couple of bucks more now and then ( not often I bet though) but I don't care because I like shopping there and I want to make sure locals like this stay in business. Jasvk is right, Tassie may be a bit different to the North Island, but service is alive and well if you care to support it :) and we all should.
This may be the right thing to do, it may not. I'm just pointing out that increasingly, price is all that matters. Harvey Norman recognises that and are running scared, trying to use their corporate muscle to force online sales from overseas out of the market.
Why should we all? Why should a customer be willing to pay more when they could use that money (accumulated over many purchases) to take their kids on a decent holiday; send them to a science camp; buy fresher, organic food or buy them decent health insurance? Many would argue their kids are more important than propping up inefficient, local shops. Right?
Scotty
Back on topic. You've mentioned a couple of times a desire to have a studio and that's part of your business plan. I guess that you are aware that the trend for professional photographers is quite the opposite now, a great number discarding the horrendous cost and overhead to share facilities. This is not new of course, the film industry has done this for a hundred of years. Perhaps a bit more research may help you here.
I mention this because it gives you an opportunity to compete with established photographers and still make a small profit whilst you develop your business.
Thanks Red... That's helpful. :)
This may be the right thing to do, it may not. I'm just pointing out that increasingly, price is all that matters. Harvey Norman recognises that and are running scared, trying to use their corporate muscle to force online sales from overseas out of the market.
Why should we all? Why should a customer be willing to pay more when they could use that money (accumulated over many purchases) to take their kids on a decent holiday; send them to a science camp; buy fresher, organic food or buy them decent health insurance? Many would argue their kids are more important than propping up inefficient, local shops. Right?
Scotty
If my income allows me to give my kids the best of everything, plus uphold my values, then that's my business and choice to do so, also, this topic is not about big commercial business and their inflated prices... It's about people trying to screw down one man operators...
Scotty72
09-01-2011, 1:31pm
If my income allows me to give my kids the best of everything, plus uphold my values, then that's my business and choice to do so, also, this topic is not about big commercial business and their inflated prices... It's about people trying to screw down one man operators...
It doesn't matter if they are big or small: gettin' screwed is getting screwed. This is just a form of rationalisation to justify actions.
Good on you if you are wealthy enough to make decisions which 'uphold your values'. Many people aren't so lucky and I don't think the rich should moralise about poor people and their 'lack of values'. Sounds rather Dickensian to me.
Scotty
On the basis that any further comment that I might make in this thread would render my NY resolutions invalid, I wish you all luck in this debate. I'd just like to say I agree with you all 100%
Scotty, retailing is a predatory occupation regardless of whether you're big or small, rich or poor. Like any money making occupation the first lessons you learn when going into business for yourself is how to survive (make money). The alternative is poverty. Morality should, but rarely enters the equation and the larger you are the more distant you become from moral reality. Do you think Telstra/Woolworths/Coles or any bank gives a hoot about your wealth. Certainly not until their profits are challenged.
So, as an individual customer you have to make buying decisions all by yourself. If Jase chooses one way and you another that makes perfect sense and is based entirely on individual situations. Hopefully, as life goes on, we all learn the best way but that doesn't alter your right (or Jase's) to make your own decision.
On the basis that any further comment that I might make in this thread would render my NY resolutions invalid, I wish you all luck in this debate. I'd just like to say I agree with you all 100%
So Kiwi, do we take it that your New Year resolution is to agree with us 100% all the time? :D
If my income allows me to give my kids the best of everything, plus uphold my values, then that's my business and choice to do so, also, this topic is not about big commercial business and their inflated prices... It's about people trying to screw down one man operators...
Sometimes it's a tad hard knowing whether we're still "on topic" or not. The nature of these conversations is that they tend to morph along the way, and that's fine in my book because that's what happens in conversations.
To me, the topic is all about pricing and market forces whether it be at a corporate level or at the "one man band" level. It's also about expectations and the realities of running a business.
At the end of the day both corporations and individuals are all seeking a profit, and they will usually seek the greatest profit they can. So essentially it's probably true to say that providers of goods and services will generally try to screw the most they can out of customers.
Similarly, the clients of these businesses will generally try to extract the best deal they can, and that's the nature of being a consumer.
What both sides need to realise is that there is a pendulum which tilts back and forth favoring one or other. It might be the $US or it might be a glut on the market of something or other, or it might be a radical change such as digital photography or it might be greater competition. Either side needs to be adaptable enough to capitalise on these advantages when they arise, and flexible enough to alter their expectations when things are less favourable.
Then there is the moral argument which questions whether capitalising on a situation is ethical or not and so we introduce another element, i.e. is the conduct of either the buyer or seller morally justifiable as distinct from economically justifiable. So we end up examining a pricing structure and deciding whether it fulfills our own personal economic and moral standards.
This thread started really because of a concern that customers lacked an appreciation of the value for money they were getting. Ultimately, "value for money" comes down to a very individual perspective. As long as both customer and client recognise that they have the capacity to say "No" to a deal, and just walk away, then neither need get their knickers in a twist. No-one forces people to accept a particular deal unless there are no other "deals" to consider. That's the nature of our society - if you don't like a deal .... just walk away, and if you can't walk away - then adjust your expectations. Just don't expect to always be on the winning side of the pendulum.
On the basis that any further comment that I might make in this thread would render my NY resolutions invalid, I wish you all luck in this debate. I'd just like to say I agree with you all 100%
Lol, I might bow out myself... There's been some helpful replies to this thread, so thank you to everyone :)
I can safely say, no one here likes to be employed for $0 a week/day/hour (if you do, I have plenty of work for you). as far as i can tell, thats the only thing jasevk had a gripe about. people expecting him to work for free/below cost. yep i've come across plenty of these people too, and after kindly explaining to them that i have costs too, send them on their way. regardless of whether the market is headed this way or not. guess what, I'm still in business! yaay for me! stick to your guns:violent10:
I can safely say, no one here likes to be employed for $0 a week/day/hour (if you do, I have plenty of work for you). as far as i can tell, thats the only thing jasevk had a gripe about. people expecting him to work for free/below cost. yep i've come across plenty of these people too, and after kindly explaining to them that i have costs too, send them on their way. regardless of whether the market is headed this way or not. guess what, I'm still in business! yaay for me! stick to your guns:violent10:
Thanks Zollo, you're hearing me!
Scotty72
09-01-2011, 3:52pm
Scotty, retailing is a predatory occupation regardless of whether you're big or small, rich or poor. Like any money making occupation the first lessons you learn when going into business for yourself is how to survive (make money). The alternative is poverty. Morality should, but rarely enters the equation and the larger you are the more distant you become from moral reality. Do you think Telstra/Woolworths/Coles or any bank gives a hoot about your wealth. Certainly not until their profits are challenged.
So, as an individual customer you have to make buying decisions all by yourself. If Jase chooses one way and you another that makes perfect sense and is based entirely on individual situations. Hopefully, as life goes on, we all learn the best way but that doesn't alter your right (or Jase's) to make your own decision.
I agree so, I'm not sure why you're telling me this. It is perhaps more 'moral' to ensure the vendor gets a fair margin on top of his/her costs or that we support small shops so Woolies/Westfields don't drive them out of business but, that is not my concern - is it?
I feel I am a reasonably astute consumer, I try to be well informed about products/services i buy and rarely need the 'help' of sales reps who often know very little about what they are selling, especially in the major chain stores. I have usually made up my mind on what I am buying by the time I go into a store or open an e-commerce site. This means a very easy sale for the retailer as I need no assistance buying or deciding or a tour of the features etc, and I am happy to sort warranties out for myself. This makes me low cost consumer for the retailer.
I am grossly immoral though, as I send my money to whoever gives me the best deal based on price/availability and could not care less about their sad stories regarding why their prices are 20-30-50+% more than another retailer. I don't feel I need to pay a premium to allow for the less astute consumer who needs hands on assistance either before or after the purchase of an item.
If they can't compete globally, they don't get my money.
Sure Wayne, but it works both ways. As the bigger companies globalise they need less staff. Ten's of thousands have lost their jobs from Telco's, hundreds of thousands from banks and the list goes on. When you or a mate lose their job you shouldn't get any of my money either (no dole) because you couldn't globalise. Australia employs less people now than it did ten years ago despite economic growth so it's only a matter of time before most meaningful jobs are gone. Why have teachers when kids can learn more effectively on-line or at least it's more cost effective and it can be done from Hong Kong (one on-line teacher for 30,000 kids - easy). Think of School of the Air on a global scale.
Globalisation is a curse designed by the multi-nationals to increase profit and reduce wages. The time will come when you won't have enough money to buy goods anyway (as many of our rural cousins already know). I wonder who will win the race, you or globalisation? No contest despite how astute you may be. Does the work you do compete globally? I hope so.
Ross the fiddler
09-01-2011, 4:37pm
I'm actually rather cheesed off right now... At a few things! After going through a fairly lengthy process of identifying my fixed costs, sale costs, allowance for expenditure etc etc, I'm finding that I'm far more comfortable in quoting people my standard prices, even people I know... But I'm also finding myself increasingly frustrated when potential clients suggest what they consider a fair price!
For example, I had a plus sized model approach me for a shoot to supply images for a piece in an online magazine... In lead up to a talk she's been asked to deliver in the US. Her reply to my quote was that it was much higher than she expected. So I ask what her budget was, to which she replied "around $50". I asked her to reconsider her budget, and she came back with $200, which was to include hair and makeup, with unrestricted use of 50 high res images.
Another was a request for a quote from a friend of my brothers, for their wedding. After sending a formal quote detailing apotheosis particulars, including a modest discount, I received a reply stating that they were shocked that they weren't getting mates rates since they know my brother...
Another recent one was a query which was referred to me via another 'photographer' whom I know, asking how much I would charge for a portrait session with her family, and supply of all images on disc. After replying with my price, the client went back to the other 'photographer' and booked a session for $80, and was supplied with 200 images on CD a week after the shoot...
I know it's been discussed time and time again, and it comes down to the fact that most people cant see the value in photography these days, but I just wanted to rant and vent my frustration! I accept that some people won't believe my services aren't worth what I'm asking for, this seems to be a common theme among many photographers I speak to... but seriously, to be asked to work for peanuts, even after you explain that you actually have costs is just plain rude IMO.
So how do you handle these types of queries?
I can understand your frustration as customers (clients) don't want to think that your time is worth money & if a full time job, needs to keep the wolves from the door. I do musical instruments (repairs & sales) & have my hourly rate, sometimes I will discount, but if they don't want to pay, there are others that will. We have to live & have enough to fund our hobbies too. :D
So how do you handle these types of queries?
Ask them if they shop around for a plumber who does mates rates at 5.00 pm on a Sunday arvo when their hot water service just burst.:action:
I have never received a govt benefit of any kind, and if I were to lose my job, I am satisfied that I could find alternate work in plenty of time before I run out of $$ and assets, so yours and every other tax payers $$ is safe from me.
I work for one of the worlds largest miners, mining a commodity that is mined globally, and often in countries where labour is much cheaper, far less govt regulation etc and effectively the cost per tonne to get the mined product to the customer is somewhat lower. How do we stay in business in Australia? Well the goods are in the ground and you can't simply move them offshore to where labour is cheaper.
Some would argue that you could bring cheaper labour into Australia, but many miners have skills and experience to perform an often dangerous job that few imports could perform safely and efficiently without years of training and experience. Believe me, if miners could do it they would have done it already, mining is a greed that cannot be satisfied.
How can you claim Australia employs less people now than 10 years ago? Please provide me with those statistics from the ABS or other reliable govt source. The population of Australia has increased somewhat during the past 10 years, so what you are saying is that every additional working age adult that makes up that population increase is unemployed? Unemployment rates have been at their lowest in years recently.
And are you suggesting most meaningful jobs will cease to exist and automation will take over or the jobs will go offshore? Many jobs cannot be automated and result in cost efficiencies, and even if those jobs go overseas, then you could always follow them overseas too. Remember skill, training, experience and talent are what many jobs need and you simply can't get a monkey to do anything and everything.
When Australia is a country where the status quo is that we can no longer afford to buy goods, then the world will be a place of global famine. Remember, what goods/services cost are only relevant to what a market will bear, and when the market has no money, prices fall and those profits come down followed by wages and the cost of materials as a by product domino effect. What something costs today is only related to it's cost today, and when goods/services can't be sold because of the high cost, then people will start to work for less and prices will come down to meet the money available in the market.
Wayne, now I understand your argument. Mining is the wealthiest industry in this country financed almost completely by overseas funding/investment and an industry, with the exception of a few, sends its profit directly off-shore. Mining in Queensland boasts 73 of the top 100 wealthiest people in the state. That's not a political statement, just fact. I didn't quite expect your question about employment (it is common knowledge) but what I meant is that the number of full time positions in this country over the past decade has fallen by two thirds. These jobs and more have been replaced by part-time work (in most cases less costly - think of bankers) but the overall hours worked per capita has reduced. Aging population comes into this as well, as does part-time working partners. This gives us a disparity between profit and wages where profit has increased at a much greater rate than wages and the reason why individual debt is now nearly twice what it was a decade ago. People have to borrow more now to pay for housing (and cameras) and other things.
When you talk about automation, yes, that's part of the issue and proof of that lays in the internet. For instance, people on this forum and elsewhere buy their cameras primarily over the web whereas 10 years ago they would go to a shop. If you think of major retailers that means the ten staff they use to employ are replaced by one person on the internet which ties back to my comment regarding employment reductions earlier on.
Your comment on the status quo and no longer being able to afford goods is literal, not evident in Oz yet but very visible in the USA with 10% unemployment and more bankruptcies per year than our entire population. There are more people in poverty in the US than populate our country but the rich are more wealthy. It is almost a certainty that we will follow to one degree or another over the next few years. Our per capita debt already tells us that and with relative wages dropping and costs soaring it can't get better.
Anyway, I'm not a doomsday person and I'm sure with good leadership this will rectify itself but we do need to consider overall where we spend our money because sending it off-shore just for the sake of the "best" deal isn't going to solve anything. Nation before self might sound a bit old fashioned but it is the truth.
ricktas
09-01-2011, 7:05pm
I am closing this thread. It has been bordering on personal attacks, and the mods and I are watching a few members. If you keep it up, you will get a ban issued.
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