Bad customer/ payers

[GoldenOrb]

So out of those that make a coin or two from photography and the like...

Who are some of your worst payers??

Not asking any specific names rather just private/ individual customer or private/ govt commercial and what field.

Our normal practice with this business is to get payment before or upon handing over the item. Occasionally, due to short time frames we have had to invoice and await payment.

There are obvious risks when running a business, minimalising those is what will save you.... also taking deposits

With the previous business we were caught out with a another business owner given us a stolen cheque, which is stupid... for those that know me, they will understand :)

That was a private customer, but we had some really big contracts with international firms Aust/ Nz and UK and must say, one business come really close with me flying to the UK with "Captain International" (my hockey stick).... I could have flown over there and back and still had a heap of money in my pocket from what they owed.

What is your experience, did you have to involve debt collectors or take court action??

[ricktas]

I have a clause in my contracts that states:

"Any and all costs associated with the collection of any unpaid monies in relation to this contract will be borne by the client. This includes but is not limited to debt collection agency costs, court lodgement costs, or actual court costs"

I have found that as soon as you tell them they need to pay or it goes to a debt collector, and that instantly an extra $300.00 will be owed as they signed a contract stating they would pay any and all costs, I quite often get payment.

[kiwi]

bizarre question

[GoldenOrb]

I have a clause in my contracts that states:

"Any and all costs associated with the collection of any unpaid monies in relation to this contract will be borne by the client. This includes but is not limited to debt collection agency costs, court lodgement costs, or actual court costs"

I have found that as soon as you tell them they need to pay or it goes to a debt collector, and that instantly an extra $300.00 will be owed as they signed a contract stating they would pay any and all costs, I quite often get payment.

yep I had that also for the last business and only ever had to enforce it twice, once for a govt agency and once for the idiot with the check which I was standing out the front of the court house and gave him one last chance, where he then paid straight away.

Just wish people would pay when the are s'posed to. Its not hard, if they cant afford it... simple.... dont buy it

At the same end.... I am aware of the risks in running a business..........

[JM Tran]

from my experiences

Commercial/Editorial/Fashion - never had any big dramas so far, knock on wood

Weddings - IMO the worst clients are Viet wedding clients - because they see me as their 'kinsman' it does not give them the right to boss the hell out of me and my assistants, or take a few generations to decide to pay the remaining fee, or make ludicrous demands 'ie. photoshop my tattoo out in every single photo out of the 600 submitted', blah blah

my favourite and worst Viet client was a bridezilla in Melb - day after the wedding she came over with her groomsman and groom demanding all her photos right now, with a portable hard drive in hand. I said they are RAWs only and wont be ready for a few weeks. But they got angry and abusive, and I didnt want any troubles and just gave it to them - and then she goes home and complains she cannot open them hahahahahaha! Makes you wonder what sort of person she is as there were many tables at her wedding empty due to her own friends and grooms friends deciding not to turn up:D

when you shoot enough weddings you will see a plethora of nonsense and ridiculous things, and see the good and bad sides of people very quickly.

[GoldenOrb]

bizarre question

not overly bizarre... Its just something on my mind.. I do design work, pay premium costs for a premium product for cliental, just like to know why is it that people are always on your case to get the job done, just delay paying you. Im also just wondering if its me or others in the same boat

theres obviously no dodgy people in kiwi land ;)

[kiwi]

none that im prepared to publicly bleat about anyhow :)

[GoldenOrb]

none that im prepared to publicly bleat about anyhow :)


fair enough, thats why I suggested no names, just group types.

[kiwi]

ohh cool, stereotyping and generalisations, my favourite game

[GoldenOrb]

from my experiences

Commercial/Editorial/Fashion - never had any big dramas so far, knock on wood

Weddings - IMO the worst clients are Viet wedding clients - because they see me as their 'kinsman' it does not give them the right to boss the hell out of me and my assistants, or take a few generations to decide to pay the remaining fee, or make ludicrous demands 'ie. photoshop my tattoo out in every single photo out of the 600 submitted', blah blah

my favourite and worst Viet client was a bridezilla in Melb - day after the wedding she came over with her groomsman and groom demanding all her photos right now, with a portable hard drive in hand. I said they are RAWs only and wont be ready for a few weeks. But they got angry and abusive, and I didnt want any troubles and just gave it to them - and then she goes home and complains she cannot open them hahahahahaha! Makes you wonder what sort of person she is as there were many tables at her wedding empty due to her own friends and grooms friends deciding not to turn up:D

when you shoot enough weddings you will see a plethora of nonsense and ridiculous things, and see the good and bad sides of people very quickly.

Ive only done one wedding for a mate... been asked to do another 2 but am avoiding their calls like the plague. Got asked to do another for a friends daughter... thank christ I didnt do that one as last I heard they are trying to take him to court

I have been on the other end of weddings and doing just what you have said..... removing tatts, cloning people to drop 30-40 kgs, removing little jimmys finger from up his nose......

Ive seen some bad shots taken as well, or the photographer has taken them on film... then lost it with no back up.....

I sort of figure unless the bride is happy..... your not going to get any satisfaction.. Mod edit: sexist comment removed

[GoldenOrb]

..... removing tatts, cloning people to drop 30-40 kgs, removing little jimmys finger from up his nose......
)

Just with that comment, permission is always sought from the photographer/ copyright holder first as well........

[JM Tran]

ohh cool, stereotyping and generalisations, my favourite game

ahhh how about no, nothing to do with that.

there is nothing wrong with discussing clients and consequences and scenarios and solutions. It is a great way for peers and mentors and apprentices to learn from one another's mistakes and mishaps and improve upon that. There is no direct name dropping or vilification of a particular individual.

[Wayne]

I have done work for 2 QLD Govt departments, and despite terms of 14 days, both will take 2-3 months to get the invoice paid. Any work I do for personal clients requires 50% upfront and 50% on delivery of files, and any printing costs paid upfront.

[Rattus79]

all government agencies are like that, but they do pay... eventually.

I have a Real Estate that still owes me a couple of hunders for work done nearly 2 years ago. Since they've gone into liquidation since it'll never happen now. What really get's my goat is that my gf worked there right up till closing a few months ago.... go figure that.

[GoldenOrb]

govt agencies here (WA) usually take 3 months... doesnt matter what the invoice says. I know they are regularly getting debt collectors chasing them. they dont care, its not as though they are going anywhere soon

[GoldenOrb]

all government agencies are like that, but they do pay... eventually.

I have a Real Estate that still owes me a couple of hunders for work done nearly 2 years ago. Since they've gone into liquidation since it'll never happen now. What really get's my goat is that my gf worked there right up till closing a few months ago.... go figure that.

Actually one of the things that raised this topic was just that... real estate photos........ But you are right govt depts do pay.... eventually.

[Wayne]

all government agencies are like that, but they do pay... eventually.



But you are right govt depts do pay.... eventually.

Yep, slow but always come good in the end, that's why every time they ask me to do work I keep doing it.

[GoldenOrb]

I sort of figure unless the bride is happy..... your not going to get any satisfaction.. Mod edit: sexist comment removed

oppps sorry....

[JM Tran]

heres another example of an iffy customer......

Client met me and was happy with everything and signed contracts on the spot. Goes home to tell her hubby and he got angry, he only wants to pay $500 bucks deposit to book me for end of November 2011 (peak wedding time) for a package of $5500 all up. Now myself and most photographers require a 50% deposit to secure the booking, so I wrote her an email for her husband -



The reason we take a 50% deposit is for me to secure that date with an absolute guarantee that the client will not cancel or postpone - when they do, and in fact quite a few of them do for various reasons - it means I will lose out on any other interested parties from booking that date previously.

For example 2 years ago I was meant to take a deposit of $1200 from a bride for a wedding in Canberra, she only paid $300 first and promised the rest later. Then later on she decided to change the wedding date, to a date I was already booked out for - so in the end I could not shoot her new wedding date - and lost all other potential wedding clients that was interested in the original wedding date that was canceled.

I can understand your partner's concern of handing over such a large deposit - but it is standard practice for myself and 95% of legitimate and professional photographers in Australia and around the world. As I have stated earlier, November 2011 is a very popular wedding month for me and you have the last booking date for it. However, if you were not to book me I would easily have filled it up with another client over the next few months.

Therefore, if your partner were to put himself into my shoes - and see how lucrative and busy the wedding profession is, he would understand why popular photographers require a 50% deposit - because they are popular and need the monetary assurance from the client that they will commit to hiring the photographer, and follow through with it. It is not a risk or a gamble, it is simply an insurance agreement from both parties - the client insures that the photographer will be there, and the photographer insures that the client will commit.

In other words - if for example, you deposited $500 to me to secure the date. A few months later another client is interested in the same date and is willing to offer the full deposit amount of $2900 ($5800) - I would and can easily return your $500 deposit and state that I am unvailable for that date and book the other client in - simply because there is no monetary incentives for me nor assurance to stay with the risky original booking.

I hope that explains a lot of things!



Here is her response



hi jackie

well my partner has told me to cancel with you only because he doesnt agree with the terms.

Thank you for your time!



hahahahaha, no comments from me:D

[Wayne]

heres another example of an iffy customer......

Client met me and was happy with everything and signed contracts on the spot. Goes home to tell her hubby and he got angry, he only wants to pay $500 bucks deposit to book me for end of November 2011 (peak wedding time) for a package of $5500 all up. Now myself and most photographers require a 50% deposit to secure the booking, so I wrote her an email for her husband -

In other words - if for example, you deposited $500 to me to secure the date. A few months later another client is interested in the same date and is willing to offer the full deposit amount of $2900 ($5800) - I would and can easily return your $500 deposit and state that I am unvailable for that date and book the other client in - simply because there is no monetary incentives for me nor assurance to stay with the risky original booking.

I hope that explains a lot of things![/B]



Here is her response



hi jackie

well my partner has told me to cancel with you only because he doesnt agree with the terms.

Thank you for your time!



hahahahaha, no comments from me:D

Gee, I have to say your last statement would sound pretty ordinary to me. That basically says he who pays most upfront wins, even AFTER you have agreed to do the job. If you agreed to take that $500 deposit (which you haven't in this case) that should be set in concrete that you will do the job despite a more lucrative offer from another client for the same date. What is to say that even after you get the $2750 from this client, you don't get offered a bigger more lucrative job and cancel on them anyway....

I don't doubt your ethics for a minute, but that last paragraph couldn't look good to a client.

[JM Tran]

Gee, I have to say your last statement would sound pretty ordinary to me. That basically says he who pays most upfront wins, even AFTER you have agreed to do the job. If you agreed to take that $500 deposit (which you haven't in this case) that should be set in concrete that you will do the job despite a more lucrative offer from another client for the same date. What is to say that even after you get the $2750 from this client, you don't get offered a bigger more lucrative job and cancel on them anyway....

I don't doubt your ethics for a minute, but that last paragraph couldn't look good to a client.


aahhh that last comment stemmed from an earlier discussion with the groom Wayne, I couldnt remember exactly what he was arguing to me about - but it was something along the line of him putting himself in my shoes of a pro photographer and trying to justify his $500 deposit. I also wrote that to mean I am not interested in accommodating for them any longer, in a less tactful manner than previously - due to their umms and ahhhhs and bargaining attitude.

Do weddings long enough and you can smell a troublesome client a mile away - so I'd rather not accept it at all, even if it is a big booking.

[Dylan & Marianne]

From reading this, I'll stick to the weekend warrior gigs where the jobs are by word of mouth and recommendation :P

Actually, funnily enough, Australian Photography Magazine never state what they'll pay for articles or covers - it just seems to come at a random time after the issue is printed ..........not complaining though, I'm just happy to be published :)

[JM Tran]

From reading this, I'll stick to the weekend warrior gigs where the jobs are by word of mouth and recommendation :P

Actually, funnily enough, Australian Photography Magazine never state what they'll pay for articles or covers - it just seems to come at a random time after the issue is printed ..........not complaining though, I'm just happy to be published :)

ah but thats where I get most of my work from too Dylan, via word of mouth and recommendations - havent felt the need to formally advertise or put up a website yet even though there is one. For example last weekend I shot a wedding in Melb - they liked my work from nearly 3 yrs ago from my first ever wedding gig, a groomsman in this latest wedding I also shot 2 yrs ago who also stemmed from that first ever wedding. Now I have 3 more prospective clients who saw my work at the reception and are interested. So from 1 leading to a possible 6, its not a bad ratio for word of mouth.

A bride once told me during a meeting - photographers who extensively advertise and spam their works and have a stall at every single wedding expo are the ones that need more work, and cant get enough work - theres a ring of truth to that.

[I @ M]

Wayne and JMT, maybe a little misinterpretation has occurred.

I can clearly see that the intent of charging a largish ( 50% ) deposit is a way of ensuring that the client will think awfully hard about cancelling the date and equally that it will ensure that the photographer will be keen to carry out the work on the set date without thinking about changing horses mid stream so to speak.

In the scheme of a (relatively) expensive occasion such as a wedding, $500.00 lost may not seem like a huge amount to "client" to lose if they cancel for whatever reason but it certainly doesn't make up for lost income that the photographer could have had by booking a "sure thing" on that date.

A larger sum of $2500.00 is however fair recompense for the 'tog if the couple cancel, he is guaranteed to at least make his wages without having to get out of bed if everything goes pear shaped so he is not likely to go sniffing for other jobs ( presumably if he has normal business ethics ) and seems like a much fairer outcome all round to me.

I certainly don't see any problems laying that down in a contract right at the start of proceedings to ensure that fair business is conducted on the day.

I think it is just the way JMT has verbalised on the 'net about the situation that has caused misinterpretation. :)

[GoldenOrb]

as I see it. Its your own business and you (the owner) can trade as you please. If you are confident enough to take a 75% deposit then so be it..... stuff happens with weddings/ portraits/ design work... and a business needs to protect its self.
We are very clear on what we desire from our customers, we are very clear on what we can provide as a service to the point of media types etc etc etc.

The last business we were locked in to some pretty poorly written contracts made by a franchisor and his shocking lawyer that did not allow us to have any form of enforcement when it came to payment from stores. Basically if they didnt pay there was 5/10s of stuff all we could do. We approached the stores and sought our own terms and conditions... even then.. some stores were in considerable debt. 3 stores went bust but with a continual negotiation we still got paid... other suppliers of that store didnt.

As with the original post I was interested in how businesses/ traders dealt with poor paying customers.. and if there was a area of people/ groups that didnt fair too well.

It wasnt about generalising anyone (even with the bit I got edited on but hey I re read it again and thought.... oppps). Some of the people that approach us, we can see that they are struggling financially, but in saying that, they were our best customers. Some of our wealthiest customers/ business may well me our worst. I dont think there is a specific group of people just interested in see how others dealt with it, if you know what I mean

[virgal_tracy]

For me there is no generalisation when it comes to poor payers.

Working as a wedding / portrait photographer, the best defence that I have had is to ensure that payment is made before the date. Occassionally there are people who question why they have to pay in full before hand but, especially in the wedding industry, every other vendor makes sure that you pay before you get your product.

I disagree slightly with JMT. I enforce a set amount retainer (not deposit). There is legal differences in the definition. Retainers are non refundable whereas deposits are. The legal advice I was given was that retainers needed to be a set amount so that you could justify what it went for in the case of a cancellation. The set % made this more difficult because then I had to justify what extra work that I had to do on a $7500 job as opposed to a $3500.

Never had a government client bu corporate clients have been 30days net terms and I have never had a problem as I have had a contract in place before shooting. Process and procedure makes things much easier.

[Sheila Smart]

The bigger the client, the longest one has to wait for payment. It took one client (renewing a licence) 65 days to pay my account (net 15 days). I eventually did get paid but it took a couple of reminders and I also asked them what Telstra or Energy Australia would do if I advised them that my normal payments were 45 - 60 days! My contact symphathised!
Sheila

[Redgum]

Large deposits are of little consequence as your client is protected by law in most states if you don't perform. Conversely, deciding if a client is worthwhile is something you need to learn very early in the peace, contract or no contract. Learn to reject doubtful clients.
Government payments can be very tardy if you have little experience. I do a good deal of government work, sometimes paid in advance, sometimes paid on demand but rarely over my 30 day term. Keep in mind credit cards and Paypal.
There are ways and means of doing business with government which has absolutely nothing to do with photography.