Becoming a Professional Photographer

[ricktas]

Becoming a Professional Photographer

So, you have bought a camera, a few friends have said you take good photos and you now want to take the step to becoming a professional photographer. This thread is a guide on some of the things to consider. This is not a definitive thread, but it covers a lot of aspects for those starting out.

Are you ready?

Professional photography is hard, you are working for others, with differing expectations, you need to be able to meet and exceed those expectations. Be honest with yourself, is your photography good enough, really?

Are you prepared?

Have you done any small business courses? Professional photography is mostly about marketing, promotion, client liaison, business partnerships (printers, suppliers), tax reporting, book-keeping, people management, and then there is the photography. It is highly recommended that anyone starting out in business of any sort, have some sort of training in how to run a business.

Time, do you have the time to run a business?

Running a business takes time. It is not just about taking a heap of photos on a Saturday for a wedding; you then have hours of post-processing, album preparations, client bookings and appointments, contracts, and more. Do you really have the time to dedicate to your business to make it successful? Are you flexible? What if a client wants to meet you at 10.00pm, are you able to do that? No use saying "I can't cause the children will be in bed". If you cannot meet a client to discuss a proposal, they are going to wonder if you can put in the 2 hours, 5 hours or more, to do the job, without having to run home to 'put the kids to bed'. Photography as a profession is about 80% business and 20% photography, and you need to be adaptable, flexible and professional at all times.

Do you have the equipment?

Professional photography is not about taking your DSLR and kit lens out and getting the shots, it is about having all the gear necessary to shoot your genre(s) under any conditions. What if your client wants a studio shoot, can you do that, or perhaps a midnight portrait shoot on a full moon? Do you have the gear to deal with that? What if you experience equipment failure (it happens), do you have the gear to cope with something like a complete camera body failure (it happens -the camera just dies) and still be able to finish the shoot in a professional manner?

Courses

There are some brilliant photography courses available, especially those that are more workshops directed at specifics, like weekend wedding photography workshops. They can be very beneficial for YOU. Why for YOU, well your clients generally don’t care what courses you have done, they have probably never even heard of the course or instructor(s), what the client cares about is your work, the quality of it, nothing more. So do the courses to improve your own photography, but don’t necessarily make the fact you have done the courses a huge part of the promotion of your business. Let your own work do that!

Mentor

Find a mentor. Find a professional photographer who is willing to take you under their wing, maybe as an assistant, learn from them. Absorb everything you can. But before you go looking for a mentor, be prepared to have done the hard yards learning how to be a damn good photographer first. A good, solid portfolio of work, will make you stand out from the pack, when the Pro is considering an assistant. Remember there are lots of other people out there wanting the experience of working with a Pro as well, you have to be better than them.

Photography

Yep, photography is listed here. You need to be good, end of story! Good doesn’t mean that Aunt Bessy tells you that your photos are good. Good means complete strangers (AP members maybe) are telling you that your photography is of a high standard. Start at the beginning, learn the Art of Photography, learn all aspects of you camera, and understand the features, how they work, don’t forget to include light. Light is the key to photography, without it, you can’t take photos. Do you know how to control light? You need to be a very good photographer who can deal with all sorts of situations.

Post-processing is inherent in photography. Do you have the skills needed to process a photo the way the client wants. Learn all you can about post processing, maybe do a course or two. Sometimes the post-processing is more important than the original photo. Your post processing skills can make or break your success.

Business Plan

Create a business plan. You need to make sure you can make money doing this. No use charging $80.00 an hour, if your costs are $70.00 an hour. You need to know exactly what all your costs are, before you can work out a charging schedule. Most small business courses include a section on creating a business plan.

Another thing to do is a SWOT assessment. Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats

Strengths: What are your strengths compared to the other photographers in your area? Use them to your advantage.

Weaknesses: What are your weaknesses? Work at improving them so they are no longer weaknesses. Your competitors will use your weaknesses against you

Opportunities: What opportunities exist in your area? Is their a gap in the current market that is not being addressed by the Professional Photographers in your area? Is it commercially viable?

Threats: Threats can come from all angles. Maybe there is a primary industry in your region? What happens if it closes down suddenly and a heap of people are suddenly unemployed; this can impact your business dramatically. Recognise threats, understand them, plan in advance of what to do, if they occur.

Marketing

Be ready to market yourself. Can you sell yourself? Some people cannot! You have to be willing to push your business, how else are people going to know you exist? There are plenty of other Professional Photographers out there, how are you going to make your name know? Know your market! If you live in an area primarily of retirees, no use setting up an baby photography studio. If you live in a low income area, it is pointless setting up a $10K per wedding photography business.

Presentation. You need to be able to present yourself as a professional. Turning up to a client meeting in dirty trousers cause you have been 'in the garden' is not on. You also need a wonderfully laid out and presented portfolio, whether that be albums or on a computer, you need to be able to present your body of work to the client. You need several of these. No use showing baby portraits to a wedding couple, or car shots to to a couple wanting pregnancy shots. Only show your best work, that is relevant to the client. But have access to the other portfolios in need. You never know when a wedding couple might mention that the Groom is into cars, so why not spend a moment or two showing them your automotive photography? This does several things, you might get another job, they might recommend you to a friend who wants a car shoot, and it endears you to the client, they feel an affinity to you, cause you are interested in the things they are.

Communication

Your communication skills are paramount. You need to be many things. Marketer, with an ability to sell yourself. Listener, to determine what it is the client wants. Remember some clients will not be effective communicators, so you made need to ask questions, clarify details etc. You need to be a director, being able and willing to tell clients (portraiture), how you want them to sit, stand, turn. You need to be good at both verbal and written communication. No use being a great marketer if your reply to an initial email enquiry starts with "thanks 4 ur email". The skills to control a situation, and move it in the right direction will be tested. Making people who are not used to being in front of a camera, relaxed and enjoying themselves. Have a sense of humour. Be sensitive to clients beliefs (religious and other).

Contracts / Prices

You will need contracts. Get all clients to sign contracts for the work they 'employ' you to undertake. Contracts are extremely important if someone doesn't pay you. And be prepared to not be paid, every business has clients that are bad payers. Have something in place to deal with these non-payers. Contracts need to be accurate and stipulate exactly what is being done and for what price. Speaking of price, you need to sit down and work out a price structure, one that will suit your client base, and be affordable to your target markets, but at the same time give you the income you need to not only keep operating by covering business expenses, but also give you a wage, money for superannuation etc. You need to know exactly what the minumum price is that you can charge to be profitable, and then your usual price, and also possible a 'high-end' price for those times you get an extremely demanding and work load intensive jobs that require a huge deal of attention, and thus could also be your occasional 'bonus'. Contracts and Prices are what make you successful. It is the money that comes in that keeps your business running, not how good a photographer you are.

Professional Associations

Consider joining professional associations, like the AIPP (http://www.aipp.com.au/iMIS15/AIPP/). These bodies have a wealth of knowledge that is open to you, including things like draft contracts. They also run courses regularly, provide access to discounts on things like insurance. They can be very worthwhile as a source of information.

Other

Other! Those things you need to also consider/have. Insurance, both for your gear, and public liability. Guess what is going to happen if a guest at a wedding trips over your camera bag and breaks a leg? Peripheral Business things, website, business cards, and more. There is a lot more to running a successful business, whether it be a weekend, part-time, or full time one. It is not about, 'have bought camera, can make money'.

Overview

Becoming a professional photographer can be very rewarding; however, those that succeed have several key reasons, which in part includes those listed above. These are no different in most instances to being successful in any business, not just photography. If you can honestly say you are ready, put in 110% and go for it. If you are not ready assess your weaknesses, work on improving them until you are ready.

The professional photography industry in Australia is shrinking, this mean some people will not succeed in this industry, and some of those already in the industry will leave it, whether you do or not, is entirely up to you. To coin a phrase ‘be prepared’ and be flexible. Always be ready to re-assess your business plan, or any other aspect of your business.

Footnote : any member who wants to add productive comments to this thread, please do so, but posts asking for specific answers etc will be deleted. Please ask those separately in the Business of Photography Forum.

[Kym]

Web Presence

You may wish to have a web presence, and the first question to ask is what sort of site you want (or need).

Consider the following options:

A brochure site - just the basics about your capabilities and contact information
A portfolio site - This is a brochure site with a gallery added on to show your best work, organised by Genre
A commerce site - this type of site allows online booking and product sales,
this is not recommended until your business is well established as it has costs in terms of money and time

Regardless of what sort of web site you have, you will need to keep it fresh and
up to date or it will soon become and anti-promotion rather than something positive.

Other web considerations:

Domain name - you need something easy to remember and relevant to you


Site styling (look and feel) aka Branding - you must get this right


Web Hosting - where will your site be server from and which technology will be used. This is a big topic, get help!
There are two main platforms that affect what you can do with your site.

LAMP which is Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP/Perl - this is the most popular option with many low cost or free software add-on options (AP runs on a LAMP server)
Windows Server with SQL Server (.Net) - the next most popular option, tends to cost a bit more and the add-on software is often at a price



Australian or US based hosting
Australian hosting will mean faster access to the site, but cost more than US based hosting providers


Web site software - CMS (Content Management System eg. Joomla), Gallery, Forum, Blog, Wiki, and Commerce are all options for your site.
These can be integrated if you select the right combinations.
You will need to do a lot of research, and again, will most likely need professional help especially if you lack technical skills.
Web sites can cost from nothing to $10,000+ to set-up and from $10/month to $1,000/month to run depending on many factors.
Do your homework before deciding that you want a web site.
Have a good business plan related to what you want to get from the web site and the budget you will work to.

[gcflora]

Excellent write-up. And here I was thinking all I'd have to do is print some business cards :(

[kiwi]

I think as a part-timer the BIGGEST thing to set a scale that you are comfortable operating at taking all that advice. Do you want/are able to shoot weddings every other weekend, or just 3 a year etc. Makes a big difference to lots of other considerations - ie family time and what you will charge to compensate for that, marketing etc - but as said thsi should be part of a Business Plan.

Good point about the gear, I know one "photographer" who is cancelling families paid christmas photo shoots as that photographer has only the equipment to shoot in natural light - and it's been bucketing down in SEQ last week or so. Now that's unprofessional.

[Redgum]

The only thing I could add to this comprehensive advice is make sure you have enough capital available to secure all the equipment you need, all the promotion you need and pay all the debts you will incur for at least twelve months. You cannot start a business without cash, a little pot of gold and history tells me that in this industry that nest egg should be around $50,000. If you are not sure how to calculate this see an accountant. See an accountant anyway because 80% of your business will depend on it.

[jeffde]

Add supportive family and particularly your partner - long hours on the weekend and in front tof the PC.
No business survives if you don't have a supportive partner.

[glasseyes]

its a scary proposition to make the leap from amateur to professional, but this article has certainly cleared up a couple of outstanding questions.

thanks

[Bright Eye]

Fantastic and Nice information., it has given me the boost to start creating some photo esays!. Great insight about venturing into the photographic world. Thanks for sharing!
:lol:

[JamesDoylePhoto]

Hi all,

This is my first post to the forums.

I have to agree with Ricktas, as a working professional nature photographer for over 30 years, you spend more time in front of the computer doing admin work than you do out photographing. Which means if you want to be a professional Photographer you are in a sense giving away the very thing you love to do...photograph.

Many feel that their photography is good enough because their friends and family think so but the reality is that they have an emotional attachment to your images and people that are likely wanting to employ you, don't.

It is a struggle to make ends meet as a photographer no matter how good you are, if you take a local photographer as an example; Steve Parish, he would be hard pushed to be where he is today based on just his photography, his wealth comes from the marketing and publishing side. If you are thinking of stock than you need to consider that you need tens of thousands of images in libraries to have a chance. There is an old saying that if you value each image in a library at one dollar per year and you want to make $10,000 per year, you need 10,000 images.

I realise I may be sounding harsh but it is the reality of the business, a lot of hard work with many struggles along the way for rather little wealth gained except for a very few lucky ones. And in the age of digital and social media where the internet is flooded with outstanding images you have to remember that you will be in competition with these.

[OutCast]

Zack Arias recently did a great creative live session on "Foundations of a working photographer" ... Great discussion about the minimum you need to live etc. ie. When you first start your expenses maybe low, your gear maybe basic. After a while improving and getting better jobs you may want to employ an on commission salesman ... costs go up, prices go up.

[djgr]

some really interesting points here, and a lot to think about...

given my first forays into the genre, the time in front of the pc vs time behind the camera scenario definitely rings true!

[campdog]

I think the step from someone who loves photography to someone who takes photos for a living can be a big step. I just completed a Professional Photography Diploma and now working on my website.Not something I will rush into.
John

[franko]

Ok, this is not going to be a popular post. But, as a recently retired professional photographer from 1982 until September last year, it is my honest opinion that photography as a profession is now dead. The emergence of digital technology, combined with the instant and global publishing ability given by the internet, means that only a very few, extremely talented and extremely good sales/business people will truly be successful as pro photographers.

Of course, there is, and will increasingly be, a plethora of amateurs/semi-pros making a few quid out of photography. But the real fact is that commercial budgets have simply been reduced as the value of photography has declined. Today even experienced product and marketing managers often fail to see the value in professional images and as a result fail to assign sufficient budget to generate great images. Too often the attitdue is, "So-and-so in accounts is a keen photographer and has a good camera. We'll get her to do it," rather than, "If we commit a large budget to this product and get a really great photographer to shoot it then our brand image will be high with a resultant increase in sales over a period of time." Marketing professionals today simply fail to see the difference between good photography and not-so-good photography. Sad, but true. 20 years ago I was routinely getting shoot budgets of $15000 a shot. My day rate in 1988 was $1400 a day; when I retired it was $600.

Social photography has been impacted even more severly. As the vast majority of social photography - wedding and portrait - are today usually shot outside, the technical knowledge for this type of photography is low and therefore the entry level extremely broad. It is not for nothing that the vase majority of new photographers are therefore entering this field rather than advertising or industrial/commercial photography where a lot of equipment and knowledge of lighting, depth of field, depth of focus and such arcane laws as the Scheimpflug principle are required to be successful with the concommitant investment in both education and equipment is high.

Does this mean it's not wortlh pursuing a career in imaging? Definitely not. There are plenty of opportunities out there for exceptionally skilled and talented people. Here's what I think is necessary to be successful in the future:
1. Learn videography rather than just photography. Cameras such as the Red, not to mention the latest DSLRs are capable of creating theatre quality motion pictures as well as print quality still images.
2: It is becoming much more important for an imaging professional to be highly skilled in post-production technologies if they are to be able to deliver images and footage that is significantly different/better than anybody else. It means the ability, no, the necessity, of being able to pre-visualise an image/scene in its completed state and then to structure the various steps to achieve that final result from set to props to direction to capture to post-production manipulation to output.

If you truly want to be a professional, invest in education; live, sleep and breathe your craft (there won't be room in your life for anything else) and move to one of the major cities - Sydney, London, New York, LA, etc - where the vast majority or professional imaging takes place.

[Longshots]

Ok, this is not going to be a popular post. But, as a recently retired professional photographer from 1982 until September last year, it is my honest opinion that photography as a profession is now dead. The emergence of digital technology, combined with the instant and global publishing ability given by the internet, means that only a very few, extremely talented and extremely good sales/business people will truly be successful as pro photographers.

Of course, there is, and will increasingly be, a plethora of amateurs/semi-pros making a few quid out of photography. But the real fact is that commercial budgets have simply been reduced as the value of photography has declined. Today even experienced product and marketing managers often fail to see the value in professional images and as a result fail to assign sufficient budget to generate great images. Too often the attitdue is, "So-and-so in accounts is a keen photographer and has a good camera. We'll get her to do it," rather than, "If we commit a large budget to this product and get a really great photographer to shoot it then our brand image will be high with a resultant increase in sales over a period of time." Marketing professionals today simply fail to see the difference between good photography and not-so-good photography. Sad, but true. 20 years ago I was routinely getting shoot budgets of $15000 a shot. My day rate in 1988 was $1400 a day; when I retired it was $600.

Social photography has been impacted even more severly. As the vast majority of social photography - wedding and portrait - are today usually shot outside, the technical knowledge for this type of photography is low and therefore the entry level extremely broad. It is not for nothing that the vase majority of new photographers are therefore entering this field rather than advertising or industrial/commercial photography where a lot of equipment and knowledge of lighting, depth of field, depth of focus and such arcane laws as the Scheimpflug principle are required to be successful with the concommitant investment in both education and equipment is high.

Does this mean it's not wortlh pursuing a career in imaging? Definitely not. There are plenty of opportunities out there for exceptionally skilled and talented people. Here's what I think is necessary to be successful in the future:
1. Learn videography rather than just photography. Cameras such as the Red, not to mention the latest DSLRs are capable of creating theatre quality motion pictures as well as print quality still images.
2: It is becoming much more important for an imaging professional to be highly skilled in post-production technologies if they are to be able to deliver images and footage that is significantly different/better than anybody else. It means the ability, no, the necessity, of being able to pre-visualise an image/scene in its completed state and then to structure the various steps to achieve that final result from set to props to direction to capture to post-production manipulation to output.

If you truly want to be a professional, invest in education; live, sleep and breathe your craft (there won't be room in your life for anything else) and move to one of the major cities - Sydney, London, New York, LA, etc - where the vast majority or professional imaging takes place.

I actually congratulate you on your honesty. Hence quoting your valuable advice in its entirety.

It might not be popular, but from one still "at the coal face", I'm basing my comments on experience and not just guess work, which many do; however your advice is spot on.

[Redgum]

Franko said
Does this mean it's not wortlh pursuing a career in imaging? Definitely not. There are plenty of opportunities out there for exceptionally skilled and talented people. Here's what I think is necessary to be successful in the future:
1. Learn videography rather than just photography. Cameras such as the Red, not to mention the latest DSLRs are capable of creating theatre quality motion pictures as well as print quality still images.
2: It is becoming much more important for an imaging professional to be highly skilled in post-production technologies if they are to be able to deliver images and footage that is significantly different/better than anybody else. It means the ability, no, the necessity, of being able to pre-visualise an image/scene in its completed state and then to structure the various steps to achieve that final result from set to props to direction to capture to post-production manipulation to output.

Sure, there's a lot of truth in what Franko says and what William endorses but it still is only one side of the picture so to speak. Both these gentlemen are old school photographers and photography, like every industry, evolves with time. Some people can endorse change and others wither (or retire) and that's quite natural but in no way does that mean the industry is dead or dying. I've been in the photography/filmmaking business for close on fifty years and make a far better living now than I ever have. I've just come back from a documentary shoot in PNG/Fiji for which I will earn eight to ten times the national wage for six months work. I never made this sort of money twenty years ago. Yes, I did a film shoot but also a photography commission for a major mining company but neither job would have come my way if I couldn't write.
Newspapers, magazines, large and small corporates and lots of government departments want multi-skilled people - it makes economic sense - but also suggests as Franko pointed out, that the old photography skills alone that we use to depend on are no longer enough.
What does this mean for a budding professional photographer? Simple, learn additional associated skills to your photography, perhaps journalism, even business studies, maybe publishing or editing, print or film. These are all part of the creative industry. Be versatile and prepared to move from one part of the industry to another because at the very least it will keep you employed when other so called specialists are on the dole queue or retired.

[Longshots]

While I may be oldish, I would never describe myself as old school :) Those who know me dont.

I agree with you though - if ever there was a time to posses multi skills its now; isnt that what Franko has said, which I've supported and you yourself are saying exactly the same thing ?

And FWIW the IBSA report on the state of the industry, also suggests is the key for anyone entering the imaging capture business - that a business model based purely on stills is unlikely to produce an income that can be sustainable in the near future.

[Redgum]

isnt that what Franko has said, which I've supported and you yourself are saying exactly the same thing ?
Not really. Franko's opinion was that professional photography was now dead (first paragraph). To the contrary I believe it's alive and well. It just takes a different form as evolution always will.
Like filmmaking thirty years ago consisted of a camera, tripod, a roll of film and a pot of glue. Today, filmmaking is very technical, much more costly but in the end tells the same story. Simple evolution - photography is no different.
BTW: Filmmaking and photography are both great careers and younger people can make a real go of it if they get the right encouragement from us mature guys. :)

[franko]

I'm with William. I may be oldish, I certainly don't think of myself as old school. I've maintained my post-production skills from the days of the original Paintbox through all the iterations of Photoshop (I can remember it before it was an image editing program :)) and moved to digital capture in around 2000. Not as early as some of my (richer) colleagues but early enough to have had a more gradual learning curve than most. I was also working in video nearly 30 years ago and have won more than 20 awards for TV advertising. FWIW I've also won awards in almost every other advertising media, including a Golden Stylus, an Echo and a Caples.

But I'm old school in the sense that I do believe in getting as close to the final image in camera as I can, in understanding and being able to light effectively and in not relying on Photoshop (or other apps) to fix up something that should have been completed in the original capture. I've retired for two reasons - 1. a heart that has a very irregular beat and 2. answering the Lord's call to ministry. For me the timing's right. I love still images but cannot get nearly as excited about moving pictures in that I will never, even when technology permits, hang them on my wall to look at. But I do have a number of photographs on my wall from the likes of Ken Duncan, Peter Lik and a Sunny Coast photographer whose name I forget at the moment but who does absolutely sublime images of flower, moss, lichen, etc.

Edited to reply to your last comment. I think we are saying precisely the same thing and are in complete agreement. I was using the term 'photography' in its traditional sense of capturing still images; I agree wholeheartedly that there are still great careers to be had in digital imaging, but not in the traditional sense of photography. Which is what I said in my original post. I think we three are all in agreement, we may just use certain words with a different emphasis.

[Bonnie]

Thank you so much for your insight :) I am so determined to make a career out of my passion for photography. I have taken your advise and am currently learning more about my camera and its functions, and as much as I possibly can about composition and editing!

Perseverance and Determination :)

[ricktas]

Thank you so much for your insight :) I am so determined to make a career out of my passion for photography. I have taken your advise and am currently learning more about my camera and its functions, and as much as I possibly can about composition and editing!

Perseverance and Determination :)

So join in and show us some, you have 3 posts in 6 months on AP. One of the best ways to gauge if you are ready is to get some reviews/critiques on your work from your peers (fellow photographers/ AP members)

[ricktas]

Following on in this topic.

We often see members post saying they are about to setup their small photography business and what should they charge. So here is an example of one way of working that out. How much do you want to earn from your small business? I hear you say you would like to take home a pay of $60,000 per annum, before tax. GREAT! So we have a starting point.

Now you need to start your research, you need to know what the following costs you (per annum)

Insurance - public liability, your camera gear, income protection(in case you cannot work- sick), maybe property, if you have a shop front. If working from home call your insurance company, you may need to pay extra to cover you running a business from home.

Advertising - Find out how much business cards cost, stationery, a logo designed, placing ads in the local newspaper perhaps, contact the local wedding dress makers/ cake makers / wedding car hire companies, find out if they allow advertising through them. Find out the costs.

Accountant – talk to the tax office, your accountant. Find out what you need to do reporting wise (GST, balance sheets etc). Find out what your accountant would charge to attend to your financials. Do you know how to use MYOB ? If not, go do a course and include the course costs in your accountancy costs, here

Equipment - Camera gear, it is great you have that 1000D, but what it it breaks down 10 minutes into a wedding? You need to have enough equipment to be able to effectively have a good fault tolerance. Fault tolerance is how well you can continue operating with the failure of one or more pieces of equipment. Phone, Fax, computer(s), printers.

Suppliers - frame makers, canvas printers, large prints, albums, and more, You need to research all of these and find out what each is going to cost you. No use telling the client a canvas print is $250.00 to find out that it costs you $245.00 to get it printed.

Finance - You may not have enough money to start your company and plan on borrowing say $20,000 to get it set-up. You need to know the interest and repayment amounts, cause you need to factor those into your figures to find out what your total expenses will be, running your business.

Other – Any other costs you might need to consider.

Now the fun part. Sit down and work out all your costs for a year. Here is an example


Wages $60,000
Superannuation $5400
Insurance $3000
Advertising $2000
Accounting $2000
Equipment $23,000
Supplies $15,000
Finance $7000
So there you go, your costs for your small business are $117,400

Some other things to consider, not included here. Equipment depreciation/failure and replacement, computers and software, rental costs, phone costs, power costs, travel costs (petrol, tyres, car servicing etc). To do this properly, you need to factor in ALL your costs.

So now we know you need to make $117,400 / 52.2 (weeks in the year), equates to $2.249.00 a week to meet your target.

From this $2,249.00 a week, this gives you a figure to start working out what to charge. How you do that is up to you.

You should have spent time during the planning stage working out how many weddings you will do a week, how many portrait sittings, engagement shoots, product shoots, property shoots, etc. Once you have all that, and the costs associated with each one, you can start to formulate a charging rate for each photographic session.

There is no magic figure you should charge, because what someone charges in the Eastern suburbs of Sydney would not even compare to what someone charges in Adelaide. The operating costs are completely different.

This guide is not to be used as financial advice, but rather, is designed to make you think about setting up your business and how to make it profitable. Many people do not create a business plan, and then wonder why they are not making any money. Do yourself a favour and create a business plan, make it comprehensive, do your research into all your costs, and be prepared to work hard and adjust your business plan in need.

So next time you get asked to shoot a wedding and agree to do it for $300.00, think about this thread. You might just want to increase that quote a bit. And for $300.00 you probably don't even have public liability insurance? Guess what, great uncle fred trips over your camera bag, which you left on the ground while shooting the bride and groom, dear old Fred ends up in hospital, and sues you for his medical expenses. There is much more to being a paid photographer than just saying yes to a $300.00 wedding, 'to get the experience'.

[kiwi]

Valid for those wanting to go full time, it would be quite a different calculation for those, I'd guess most here, that want to to part time as a supplementary income whom probably already have the gear for personal use to start with

That would be an interesting calculation to do as well

[ricktas]

Valid for those wanting to go full time, it would be quite a different calculation for those, I'd guess most here, that want to to part time as a supplementary income whom probably already have the gear for personal use to start with

That would be an interesting calculation to do as well

No reason you cannot use a modified version of the above as a part timer. You still need to decide how much you want to make, and work out/know what your costs are, before you can set a price for the services you are going to provide. A business plan is a valuable tool whether your want to do it full-time or part-time.

[Miss Lou]

Great post- its good to see some encouragement for up and coming photographers that have a genuine interest in making what started as a hobby a successful career path

[lokeshjb]

Great piece of advice for amateurs like me. Thank You

[Chris C]

Hi all,

I spent most of my working life running my own small business (not specifically photography) and I can confirm that anybody who posted above that it's tough is right.

There are many ways to start, but two common - and opposite - ways are as follows:




1. Wing it on the smell of an oily rag. Do cut rate jobs for very little money, work out of a bedroom instead of a studio, exaggerate your skills and experience if asked, don't pay for insurance, use cheap gear, etc. In short, be exactly the sort of person that you will probably be complaining about in a few years time if you do claw your way up to become successfully mainstream. It can work.

2. Draw up a 'proper' budget and business plan. Go to the bank and borrow the necessary money . Somewhat stunningly it usually turns out to be hundreds of thousands of dollars, not tens, as Rick's list points out. Equipment, studio space, insurance, possible extra staff, advertising, it never ends....Congratulations, you now work for a bank who lets you play with their gear, for a fee.


The most important thing of all is that you must understand Marketing and business (especially Marketing) or be prepared to hire somebody who does. A merely adequate photographer who is well marketed will almost always make a better living than a good photographer with no marketing and business skills. "Marketing" doesn't just mean buying an occasional ad, it covers everything from client relation skills, networking and word of mouth through to the many forms of paid advertising. You must know how to keep the work coming in and how to build a good reputation. Hard to built but easy to lose if you upset someone, however accidentally. This is more true than ever. People will rarely queue up to buy - no matter what the product - you must learn how to sell, week after week after week. That means staying up to date with what the market wants, or - even better - what it can be persuaded to want.


I don't think that professional photography is dead, it's just being re-incarnated at a faster rate than we're used to. ;)


Cheers and good luck,

Chris

[Redgum]

Chris, the only quality you overlooked is "luck" or "good fortune". These elements are almost crucial to success and usually come from well honed business skills, networking and good sales techniques. So often you see people work so hard with just average results. Simply being in the right place at the right time with the right people can pay high dividends so networking until it hurts, learning until you scream and selling until you drop will often dictate a comfortable second half of your career. With a little luck of course. :)

[Chris C]

Chris, the only quality you overlooked is "luck" or "good fortune".

True, it cannot be overlooked. But it can't be relied on either. Samuel Goldwyn (and many others) have been credited with the saying "The harder I work, the luckier I get"... There's a lot of truth in that. :D

I think that the one of the biggest differences is that the 'lucky' ones recognise a lucky opportunity when they see it, whilst many people either don't spot it or won't grab it with both hands. It common enough to see a 'winner' who had a 'lucky break' but if you look closer you'll very often see a cluster of people round them who also had the chance but didn't seize it.

[ricktas]

I think that the one of the biggest differences is that the 'lucky' ones recognise a lucky opportunity when they see it, whilst many people either don't spot it or won't grab it with both hands.

And then there are the ones that don't want to grab it. There are many reasons that someone would not take up an offer. I certainly would never want to become a 'celebrity'. People choose their own paths, and sometimes they do not want the path that others think they should have taken.

[Chris C]

When it comes to photography as a business, my model for succeeding is two friends who have done just that.

They started, only half a dozen years ago, with amateur gear and shot for fun. They joined a local club to get experience but were soon regular comp winners. When they started to lust after more expensive gear they bought a rather poorly run photography business that specialised in a certain sport. The idea was that it might pay for their hobby.

Well it did that all right, and a lot more. They took their considerable skills at running a business and maintaining very good client relations (gained in a completely different field) and applied it to the new challenge. It's been very successful. They built it up, earned the purchase price back in quick time, and went upwards and onwards from there. They're good photographers for sure, but they're more than that, they're good at succeeding.

Cheers,

Chris

[Chris C]

And then there are the ones that don't want to grab it. There are many reasons that someone would not take up an offer. I certainly would never want to become a 'celebrity'. People choose their own paths, and sometimes they do not want the path that others think they should have taken.

Absolutely. I also have a strong opposition to being a 'celebrity' - in fact I'm famous for it... ;). So to speak...

I certainly don't want to be 'famous' but I do want to succeed, on my own terms, at whatever I set myself. But if some people prefer to stroll quietly along in the shadows and take what comes along that's fine too. I like to go for it. So far it's given me a very interesting life. The first 65 years anyway.

Cheers,

Chris

[Redgum]

The first 65 years anyway.
And there will be a lot of luck to get the second. Celebrity and good fortune (luck if you like) are two different things.
The first half of my life was managing banks, the second television and photography. The second career almost entirely dependent on the first because management skills are essential in business, creative skills are developed. When you have both, good fortune follows.

[Kym]

http://laurencekim.com/2011/04/28/the-photography-business-and-the-american-dream/

It's a hard reality article, which makes you think about some serious life issues.

[Redgum]

http://laurencekim.com/2011/04/28/the-photography-business-and-the-american-dream/

It's a hard reality article, which makes you think about some serious life issues.

More akin to a well written business bible. Could do well by putting this link up as a "sticky".

[Dez0106]

:) Was great help in making some things more clear to me. thanx

[WillumGee]

Like the quote - you have to be good! really sums it up!:)

[stanislasphotography]

thank you riktas, this sticky has been very helpful, it gave me a good insight into what is needed into turning my hobby into a money making hobby instead of the other way around.

Still lots of research to be done and lots of improving in photography.

[kiwi]

I think a better long term career would be flipping burgers based on stats


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ricktas]

thank you riktas, this sticky has been very helpful, it gave me a good insight into what is needed into turning my hobby into a money making hobby instead of the other way around.

Still lots of research to be done and lots of improving in photography.

As you have chosen an experience level of beginner, I think you should forget about starting a business for at least 3-4 years. Get your skills and experience up as a photographer, do a course in small business, do a marketing course, do an accounting course (MYOB for example), and then in 3-4 years time if you have done all of those AND have good photography skills, then revisit the idea of turning your enjoyable hobby into a business. Doing it before that and you will more than likely fail.

[GrantLewthwaite]

Good logical comment - thanx

[Tony B]

Great advice from Redgum. I am/was an accountant with several businesses including p/t photography. If you are charging top prices make sure you have the knowledge, business accumen & professionalism that your client is paying for. There are many talented & knowledgeable hobbyists out there & I guarantee that there will be one at almost every wedding. Taking a photograph is only a facet of a photography business.

- - - Updated - - -

Franko I would agree with much of what you say. I agree that there are many who think being a pro photographer is pushing a shutter button. In the 70s I did the NYI of Photography course which I found invaluable & then spent several years as a forensic photographer. I now indulge my passion for photography as a part timer as I can afford to.

[frithnow]

Pro photography is not dead yet, despite rumours to the contrary. It's true that aesthetic standards demanded by marketing and PR people have fallen just as technical standards have risen. I've been earning a living exclusively since the early eighties and I' still busy, enjoying my work and clients. I try to keep my day rate high, clients with low standards soon discover they can be fulfilled at lower cost.
For those with the energy and support to wing it I had some great advice I got early in my career from a lab manager; run separate business and personal bank accounts. Pay yourself weekly, no matter how small the amount. It's a variation of the old "mind your pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves" adage.
Still on money, it's worth trying to figure out your profit margin, can be hard early on. Let's say it's 10%. That means that each new piece of tasty equipment you buy must add ten times it's value to your new business before you start earning from it!

[Redgum]

Business does not die, it changes. Unfortunately, most owners can't recognise change quickly enough to survive. Greengrocers need to sell more than bananas. Hardware stores need to sell more than tools. Photographers need to sell more than photographs. To survive you need to diversify and change can be a very close friend. So, when you plan your new business think of photography as the base and look at any number of complementary products as support. One day, if photography dies, that complementary product may just be your survival. If history repeats - it will be.

[OzStrat]

Ok, this is not going to be a popular post. But, as a recently retired professional photographer from 1982 until September last year, it is my honest opinion that photography as a profession is now dead. The emergence of digital technology, combined with the instant and global publishing ability given by the internet, means that only a very few, extremely talented and extremely good sales/business people will truly be successful as pro photographers.

Of course, there is, and will increasingly be, a plethora of amateurs/semi-pros making a few quid out of photography. But the real fact is that commercial budgets have simply been reduced as the value of photography has declined. Today even experienced product and marketing managers often fail to see the value in professional images and as a result fail to assign sufficient budget to generate great images. Too often the attitdue is, "So-and-so in accounts is a keen photographer and has a good camera. We'll get her to do it," rather than, "If we commit a large budget to this product and get a really great photographer to shoot it then our brand image will be high with a resultant increase in sales over a period of time." Marketing professionals today simply fail to see the difference between good photography and not-so-good photography. Sad, but true. 20 years ago I was routinely getting shoot budgets of $15000 a shot. My day rate in 1988 was $1400 a day; when I retired it was $600.

Social photography has been impacted even more severly. As the vast majority of social photography - wedding and portrait - are today usually shot outside, the technical knowledge for this type of photography is low and therefore the entry level extremely broad. It is not for nothing that the vase majority of new photographers are therefore entering this field rather than advertising or industrial/commercial photography where a lot of equipment and knowledge of lighting, depth of field, depth of focus and such arcane laws as the Scheimpflug principle are required to be successful with the concommitant investment in both education and equipment is high.

Does this mean it's not wortlh pursuing a career in imaging? Definitely not. There are plenty of opportunities out there for exceptionally skilled and talented people. Here's what I think is necessary to be successful in the future:
1. Learn videography rather than just photography. Cameras such as the Red, not to mention the latest DSLRs are capable of creating theatre quality motion pictures as well as print quality still images.
2: It is becoming much more important for an imaging professional to be highly skilled in post-production technologies if they are to be able to deliver images and footage that is significantly different/better than anybody else. It means the ability, no, the necessity, of being able to pre-visualise an image/scene in its completed state and then to structure the various steps to achieve that final result from set to props to direction to capture to post-production manipulation to output.

If you truly want to be a professional, invest in education; live, sleep and breathe your craft (there won't be room in your life for anything else) and move to one of the major cities - Sydney, London, New York, LA, etc - where the vast majority or professional imaging takes place.


Hey, I've been an advertising photographer for the last 30 years too (nearly retired). Franco, you sound like an echo. What you say is what everyone in the industry is talking about. Our industry is being shredded before our eyes.
It started with audio. mp3 is now the music standard, and it is garbage. How often I hear people say what great photos their iphone takes, more garbage. Graphic designers moaning about supplied headshots taken by the wife in the backyard, on a phone, that ruin all their efforts. Art directors who don't give a toss about quality. But most critically, drastically slashed budgets.
I run one of the remaining few big studios in Brisbane. I don't know if I can continue for much longer. Soon there will be none.
As others have stated, taking photos is only one aspect of running a photography business. I've seen really talented people fail because they don't understand the business side, which is just as important as taking great pictures (every time!).
I have seen many assistants with great confidence go to jelly when put in charge of a shoot, where if you make a mistake, can cost $thousands. It is not a job for the feint hearted.
If you are contemplating a career in advertising/Commercial photography, you need to freelance assist for several years. Even that is becoming difficult. Budget cuts often mean no money for an assistant.
However, a wise friend once said "If you are good enough, the work will come". Be sure you are good enough. Accolades from friends doesn't count.

[Alex81]

Really great thread, Thank you all for your input and advice. I'm just starting up in the business but have been an enthusiast for many years, I've been a Chef for the past 16 years but due to an injury I am no longer able to continue on. Things are going well so far, I've done a few weddings, photographed pets and shot god knows how many family portraits. Hearing mixed views concerning the business, I'm hoping that my hard working nature and enthusiasm will pull me through. I agree that like anything you need to master your craft first and foremost and in this particular case technical education and experience.

- - - Updated - - -

Really great thread, Thank you all for your input and advice. I'm just starting up in the business but have been an enthusiast for many years, I've been a Chef for the past 16 years but due to an injury I am no longer able to continue on. Things are going well so far, I've done a few weddings, photographed pets and shot god knows how many family portraits. Hearing mixed views concerning the business, I'm hoping that my hard working nature and enthusiasm will pull me through. I agree that like anything you need to master your craft first and foremost and in this particular case technical education and experience.

[HughD]

OK so we have heard from the "oldish" pro's, now a comment from the other side.
Photography is a hobby for me, one which I have recently regained a passion for. I am, however, a professional Marketeer of some 30+ years. The guy with the money that you folk would desperately like to get your hands on.
Professional photography is not deceased, it has simply evolved, along with everything else. A few years back I joined a company as Marketing Director for A&NZ. One of the first things I did was ditch the thousands of product shots they had been using and brought in a Professional. The same Professional who had worked for me over many years and multiple companies. The majority of the pics went onto an e-commerce website with all the limitations that imposes BUT my customers were making a decision to purchase primarily based on the picture or short video displayed. The Professional I contracted knew what I needed and delivered with her usual minimal fuss. She worked with the Product Managers, the web site company and the advertising agency seamlessly without me becoming involved.
Two things drove me as a client.
Was I going to get ROI (return on investment) for the $$$'s. This applies for everything from product shots to events.
Do I have confidence in the Professional to get the job done and deliver the result I want (i.e. do I have confident relationship with this person).
So, the way for a true Professional to compete is really very simple, build confidence in the client that you will make them money and deliver on the promise.

Someone starting out needs to find a client who they can nurture to the point where they will pay the rent before giving up the day job.

[ricktas]

OK so we have heard from the "oldish" pro's, now a comment from the other side.
Photography is a hobby for me, one which I have recently regained a passion for. I am, however, a professional Marketeer of some 30+ years. The guy with the money that you folk would desperately like to get your hands on.
Professional photography is not deceased, it has simply evolved, along with everything else. A few years back I joined a company as Marketing Director for A&NZ. One of the first things I did was ditch the thousands of product shots they had been using and brought in a Professional. The same Professional who had worked for me over many years and multiple companies. The majority of the pics went onto an e-commerce website with all the limitations that imposes BUT my customers were making a decision to purchase primarily based on the picture or short video displayed. The Professional I contracted knew what I needed and delivered with her usual minimal fuss. She worked with the Product Managers, the web site company and the advertising agency seamlessly without me becoming involved.
Two things drove me as a client.
Was I going to get ROI (return on investment) for the $$$'s. This applies for everything from product shots to events.
Do I have confidence in the Professional to get the job done and deliver the result I want (i.e. do I have confident relationship with this person).
So, the way for a true Professional to compete is really very simple, build confidence in the client that you will make them money and deliver on the promise.

Someone starting out needs to find a client who they can nurture to the point where they will pay the rent before giving up the day job.

Thanks for the thoughts and views, but demand-supply also comes into play. Since 2000 the number of weddings in Aus has decreased each year, such that we are down about 20,000 weddings per annum on 2000 figures. Yet in that same time we have seen a huge growth in the number of photographers offering themselves up as Wedding photographers. yes there is good work to be had, but from a photographer point of view, the market is evolving and changing, but the number of photographers seeking to take up those jobs has increased dramatically (thanks to digital to some extent), so people need to be made aware that supply/demand is out of whack as well, and not every person who wants to become a professional photographer is going to succeed and be able to earn a good/decent living off being a photographer alone.

[HughD]

Hi Rick
Good point on Weddings. I know a Professional video guy who does some Weddings on weekends to pick up a few extra dollars. He says that the money is poor per hour and competition is high. I guess it would be the same for Wedding Photographers.
My real point was that I believe that there are new opportunities for the right Pro.
Thanks
Hugh

[Maranatah]

I spoke to a grand master photographer recently, and he too has confirmed the industry is tough, but also shared how some true professionals (referring to people who have walked the mile to acquire the knowledge and skills to produce quality product) are standing together to secure shoots and then "share" by contracting each other to ensure that the job is done 100% professional. As we were speaking and he was sharing some of his wisdom, he had a call from a another true pro who asked for him to join in a shoot. It is good to see how "old-timers" are standing together.

[bcys1961]

I spoke to a grand master photographer recently, and he too has confirmed the industry is tough, but also shared how some true professionals (referring to people who have walked the mile to acquire the knowledge and skills to produce quality product) are standing together to secure shoots and then "share" by contracting each other to ensure that the job is done 100% professional. As we were speaking and he was sharing some of his wisdom, he had a call from a another true pro who asked for him to join in a shoot. It is good to see how "old-timers" are standing together.

As long as they are not sharing too much information on pricing as that could constitute price fixing, collusion , anti-competitive practices etc... which is illegal ?

[Youroldmate]

Great thread this! It's nice to get an insight into what needs to happen for those of us hoping to make a career out of photography/media. I'm especially looking to get advice on the different study options ie the difference between a degree vs a diploma etc. I'm sure it's covered in a thread somewhere so I'll keep looking, but since you're all here you might as well give your opinion!

[I @ M]

the difference between a degree vs a diploma

I will hazard a guess that one will cost you more than the other but one thing I know with total certainty is that neither will make you a better photographer than someone without them ----

[Redgum]

Great thread this! It's nice to get an insight into what needs to happen for those of us hoping to make a career out of photography/media. I'm especially looking to get advice on the different study options ie the difference between a degree vs a diploma etc. I'm sure it's covered in a thread somewhere so I'll keep looking, but since you're all here you might as well give your opinion!

I'd agree with Andrew. With a double degree from wayback in business/film/television plus a diploma in film and television I would have to say the diploma is the more practical learning and contributed most to the technical side of my business. However, without my business learning nothing would have succeeded. (i.e. You need to learn contracts before you take photos) If you analyse why over 90% of photographic businesses fail it's simply a lack of professional knowledge. There are two ways to overcome this; 1) Learn or 2) Employ someone that knows what to do (Ford philosophy).
BTW: If you want accurate data on why photography businesses have failed or are failing simply go to the ABS. Not much info there on success though.

[ricktas]

Agree with the above. Photography is an Art, if you see an artist painting a scene at the local beach, and you absolutely love the painting, you would talk to the artist about buying it. I bet the question 'what diploma/degree do you have' doesn't come up as part of the initial discussion.

Yes it is great for you to have a diploma/degree but that is not going to make you a successful photographer.

But if you have to have one, do the diploma... and do one in business and marketing while you are at it. BUT check out all the online photography diplomas on offer. Most are NOT from registered training organisations (RTO's) and are therefore not a government recognised qualification. What you seek is a Certificate IV in photo imaging from an RTO. Do NOT sign up to something like The Photography Institute, or one of those photography diplomas from Deal of the Day sites. These are not worth the paper the diploma is printed on.

[Youroldmate]

Nice one Redgum, that's the sort of advice I'm after! The only problem I have is that the diplomas I've seen seem very expensive! Without any experience of tertiary study, I simply thought a degree would look better on a cv. As I doubt very much I'd be out on my own straight after study, I think theres a need for something on paper. Having been an "uneducated" videographer on and off over the last 10 years, I've been in a bunch of situations where I've had explain to some marketing idiot why I didn't have a degree. Most of the time, they just couldn't understand that my work experience, the people I've worked with over time and short courses I've done could be seen as the equivalent. While he used to stick up for me, I think the guy I was working with was a little embarrassed that it kept coming up. It never happened in my first few years filming surfing, but almost as soon as I moved over into the corporate world, it seemed that all people wanted to talk about was which uni they went to!
Just my experience and reasoning.

[MissionMan]

Nice one Redgum, that's the sort of advice I'm after! The only problem I have is that the diplomas I've seen seem very expensive! Without any experience of tertiary study, I simply thought a degree would look better on a cv. As I doubt very much I'd be out on my own straight after study, I think theres a need for something on paper. Having been an "uneducated" videographer on and off over the last 10 years, I've been in a bunch of situations where I've had explain to some marketing idiot why I didn't have a degree. Most of the time, they just couldn't understand that my work experience, the people I've worked with over time and short courses I've done could be seen as the equivalent. While he used to stick up for me, I think the guy I was working with was a little embarrassed that it kept coming up. It never happened in my first few years filming surfing, but almost as soon as I moved over into the corporate world, it seemed that all people wanted to talk about was which uni they went to!
Just my experience and reasoning.

Education in general is pretty expensive in Australia. I agree with the sentiments that it won't make you a photographer, but I think that's pretty much the way most things work in life. Nothing is more valuable than a couple of years experience.

I think ultimately photography is different in some respects in the sense that I don't believe a customer will ask to see your degree, they want to see the work you have done previously. Corporates on the other hand rely on degrees to filter candidates and there are some organisations I know who won't take senior management without an MBA.

[Redgum]

Nice one Redgum, that's the sort of advice I'm after! The only problem I have is that the diplomas I've seen seem very expensive! Without any experience of tertiary study, I simply thought a degree would look better on a cv. As I doubt very much I'd be out on my own straight after study, I think theres a need for something on paper. Having been an "uneducated" videographer on and off over the last 10 years, I've been in a bunch of situations where I've had explain to some marketing idiot why I didn't have a degree. Most of the time, they just couldn't understand that my work experience, the people I've worked with over time and short courses I've done could be seen as the equivalent. While he used to stick up for me, I think the guy I was working with was a little embarrassed that it kept coming up. It never happened in my first few years filming surfing, but almost as soon as I moved over into the corporate world, it seemed that all people wanted to talk about was which uni they went to!
Just my experience and reasoning.

I did my film degree back in the 80's purely for commercial reasons. I wanted to work my television studios with Griffith Uni to train undergraduate interns for money. I already had lots of experience. It worked and more than paid for my education. In 2008 I wanted to teach film at TAFE and private colleges and my degree was too old so I did an advanced diploma in Film & Television to qualify. The diploma took me 2.5 hours all up because by then I had my degree and 25 years experience. (They call that RPL - Recognition of Prior Learning) So now I've been teaching film & television for years but could not of done that without the qualifications. As I freelance with National Geographic I can also teach photography with the same qualifications.
Yes, ongoing education is important but not necessarily for technical reasons. To do any meaningful work with government or the corporate sector you need the paper. It doesn't necessarily make me a better practitioner but the people that employ me think it does and keep on paying the bills. If the jobs dry up as they do from time to time I go back to teaching and when I'm too old to travel to central asia and Africa I can earn good money telling students just what I've told you. If you have faith and focus good luck becomes an add-on. In my opinion TAFE is probably the best place to do a diploma.

[Hamster]

Summarised for everyone

http://petapixel.com/2016/02/17/infographic-become-pro-photographer/

Thread can be closed now ;):)

[Redgum]

No! No! He's missed one step but I guess he's still learning. :flowersnap:

[John King]

:lol: RG.

Well said ...

[Mark L]

Summarised for everyone

http://petapixel.com/2016/02/17/infographic-become-pro-photographer/


Thanks for that. I'll read it all properly tomorrow. Looks really well set out and easy to follow. Should be right to go by Monday.
Didn't see were it tells me how to get an ABN. Suppose that was the step Redgum reckon was missed. So once I get that ABN on Monday morning I'll be right to go.
Thanks again.:th3::)

[John King]

www.ato.gov.au (http://www.ato.gov.au) and search for ABN. Do not check the box that says you do it as a hobby. If you do, they will be exceedingly unlikely to issue you with an ABN ... ;).

[Mark L]

^ thanks for that tip John. Looks like Redgum missed another step that was missed.:)
I should be a real pro by Tuesday.:rolleyes:;):)

[John King]

All the best with it, Mark. I am a retired CPA. Don't claim to be current with everything though ... ;).

[Hamster]

^ thanks for that tip John. Looks like Redgum missed another step that was missed.:)
I should be a real pro by Tuesday.:rolleyes:;):)


All the best with it, Mark. I am a retired CPA. Don't claim to be current with everything though ... ;).

I think these days you've got to show some income/contracts etc. Gone are the days when you could just get an ABN and claim the tax back on anything photography related for your "business".

Although, given all the wives that are directors in their husbands company or paid large salaries as the company accountant, I'm wondering why I can't just get the Mrs to commission me to photograph her life at the rate of say, $3000/month. Proper contract and terms etc. Boom, instant professional status with associated tax deductable benefits of anything photography related.
Yes it's transparent, but so are all (ok, some must be real) the "wives as paid employee situations".

[ricktas]

I think these days you've got to show some income/contracts etc. Gone are the days when you could just get an ABN and claim the tax back on anything photography related for your "business".

Although, given all the wives that are directors in their husbands company or paid large salaries as the company accountant, I'm wondering why I can't just get the Mrs to commission me to photograph her life at the rate of say, $3000/month. Proper contract and terms etc. Boom, instant professional status with associated tax deductable benefits of anything photography related.
Yes it's transparent, but so are all (ok, some must be real) the "wives as paid employee situations".

If all else fails. Lodge and application for her to be on the next series of 'Real housewives of Perth'.

[Hamster]

If all else fails. Lodge and application for her to be on the next series of 'Real housewives of Perth'.

I think I'd call it a day before that becomes the remaining option. [emoji3]

[John King]

Gidday Ham


I think these days you've got to show some income/contracts etc. Gone are the days when you could just get an ABN and claim the tax back on anything photography related for your "business".



The ATO has always had a check list of what constituted " ... the carrying on of a business ... ". They used to be red hot on these, but have relaxed considerably after being smacked down by the High Court year after year, starting with the avocado farm case and even before that.

Even the ATO eventually has to (mostly ... ) take notice of the full bench of the High Court of Australia, even if they, and the Socialist left, think that the Commissioner for Taxation has God-given powers ... They haven't. The commissioner is just another public servant, governed by the Commonwealth Public Service Act, and answerable to the Parliament, and bound to obey the rulings of the applicable courts. :nod:

If I had a taxable income, I would claim my photographic expenses as 'Advertising', not camera gear.
This is because my photography can cause my business web site to get up to 200,000 hits a month which it would not otherwise attract. It is what puts Canopus Computing at or near the top of the list in Google searches ... :D. This is validly classified as an advertising expense ... This also constitutes ' ... a reasonably arguable case ... ' under the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997, as amended ... ;).

[Hamster]

Sounds good. Unfortunately for me me "day job" doesn't benefit from my photography (although the company office has got my images all over one floor). Hence my musing re generating legitimate income via a client who retains me on a monthly basis, and just coincidentally happens to be my wife. Just curiosity though, not something I'm planning on doing.

[Mark L]

All the best with it, Mark. ...
I've just managed to get the tongue out of my cheek. Now revisit my posts with tongue in cheek.;)
Thanks for the advise for others and good luck to anyone that wants to make a business from photography.

[pakman2525]

Even though this hasn't been responded to for a couple of years, I've gone through it avidly over the last couple of days. It is a great read and lots of great information.
Thanks heaps all. :th3: