Photography Competitions ~ rules & conditions

[OzzieTraveller]

G'day all

I can't remember who on the AP team looks into commercial orgs running public photography competitions, but can I throw you a curved ball

I have just run 2 of my photography workshops in Narrabri NSW, and several students commented upon the Terms & Conditions of the local Shire photography comp.

Stuff that concerns them [and possibly other APers] is:

14. All entries; electronic and actual prints are non-returnable and remain the sole property of Narrabri Shire Council.

12. Copyright remains with the photographer but by entering into this competition the photographer grants Narrabri Shire Council irrevocable and unlimited license to use, name and publish the entry at their discretion for promotional purposes, at no cost and for no payment. No permission needs to be sought by Council from the Photographer in order to publish these photos.

9. Entry into this competition requires that the subjects within the photographs have given their permission for their image to appear. The permission section of the entry form must be signed by each person included in the photo. Subjects under the age of 18 must have the permission forms signed by a parent or guardian. Photographers must explain to the people that appear in the photographs the purpose of the photo and that ensure that they are prepared to have their image displayed in promotional materials.

6. As well as an A4 hard copy a digital copy must be provided on a CD. Digital photos must be supplied as a high resolution jpeg, tiff or eps format. A high resolution and quality is expected.

the site ref is " http://www.narrabri.nsw.gov.au/index.cfm?page_id=1307 "

Regards, Phil

[Xenedis]

I have just run 2 of my photography workshops in Narrabri NSW, and several students commented upon the Terms & Conditions of the local Shire photography comp.

Stuff that concerns them [and possibly other APers] is:

14. All entries; electronic and actual prints are non-returnable and remain the sole property of Narrabri Shire Council.

I'd be saying a firm "no thanks" to that.



12. Copyright remains with the photographer but by entering into this competition the photographer grants Narrabri Shire Council irrevocable and unlimited license to use, name and publish the entry at their discretion for promotional purposes, at no cost and for no payment. No permission needs to be sought by Council from the Photographer in order to publish these photos.

That entire clause is contradictory!

It's similar in principle to me stating that you own your car, except I can keep it, and drive it wherever I want, whenever I want.

The whole idea of copyright is that publishing and distribution rights remain with the creator of intellectual property.

From what I've seen here and elsewhere, it's not uncommon for promoters of photography competitions to impose unrealistic and unfair terms and conditions that are unfavourable to the photographers entering their work.

My advice always has been (and always will be) to read the T&Cs, and simply do not enter if the conditions are not acceptable.

I'd personally never enter a competition which requires me to sign my rights over to some organisation use my images however it pleases.

[Kym]

Longshots (William) is the AIPP competition watch dog.

These IMHO are very unacceptable T&Cs. Its ok for the winners images to be used given they are compensated by prizes, but all images? Give me a break.

Item 12. is not contradictory, just very bad.
They want rights, but you keep copy so you can also publish your own image as you wish. They just want an open ended license to use that image as they wish forever.

It sux.

[Longshots]

Yes I am the PhotoWatchDog, which actually represents a myriad of photohgraphic organisations that includes AIPP and ACMP, and a host of amateur photographic associations.

A PhotoWatchDog website will be coming soon - very soon,

Sadly these type of competitions are not new, but just swell in sheer numbers.

This would definitely get a thumbs down for me.

Mainly because of the clause that wants licence to use all entries. And I can assure you that clause number 12 is not contradictory as it discusses two seperate matters. Copyright is one thing - Licence to use is another. My personal belief is that these type of clauses are deliberately misleading stating the copyright thing - because most people look for that, and stop reading when it comes to the licence to use.

I was taken to task on another forum by an irate forum member who objected to me giving some competitions the ok and some I give the thumbs down. Well its really quite simple, the decision to consider one ok and the other not, is based on my opinion of carefully reading the terms and conditions. Most Fair compeititions discuss usage of the winning or finalist entries with a limitation put on that use with the wording in the terms and conditions of "limited to the use of the competition".

Competitions like Phil has pointed out, should be avoided. Where I can I contact the organisers and lobby them into producing a fairer set of T & C. I find that a personal one on one discussion often works wonders. And when you're talking to them face to face and demonstrating just how unfair some of the T & C can be, there is often a "enlightening" moment, when the old argument of well "we used a set of T & C we found" doesnt exactly come across as believable. So my clear advice is dont enter, dont support, definitely dont judge a competition which is unfair, and dont ignore, call them and complain in person. I assure you that it works. :th3:

[Xenedis]

And I can assure you that clause number 12 is not contradictory as it discusses two seperate matters. Copyright is one thing - Licence to use is another. My personal belief is that these type of clauses are deliberately misleading stating the copyright thing - because most people look for that, and stop reading when it comes to the licence to use.

Yes, on second thoughts I'd agree that it's not purely a copyright issue.

The clause is saying that entrants can do what they like with their images, but so can the promoters -- forever.

That's completely unacceptable to me.


So my clear advice is dont enter, dont support, definitely dont judge a competition which is unfair, and dont ignore, call them and complain in person. I assure you that it works. :th3:

I certainly advocate boycotting any competition whose conditions are unfavourable to entrants, but personally I don't have the energy to fight against them. However, I respect and appreciate that there are people like yourself who do have the energy to fight the good fight, and are doing so; so kudos to you.

[Fantasyphoto]

...... Where I can I contact the organisers and lobby them into producing a fairer set of T & C. I find that a personal one on one discussion often works wonders. And when you're talking to them face to face and demonstrating just how unfair some of the T & C can be, there is often a "enlightening" moment, when the old argument of well "we used a set of T & C we found" doesnt exactly come across as believable....

Well done William, I was sent a link to a "Charity Photographic Competition" in 2009 and found a similar set of T&C. When I contacted the organiser she was appreciative of my concerns and had been wondering why the entry level had been so low given the publicity they had aimed at camera clubs. It was heartening to think so many photographers actually read the T&C and voted with their feet.

Apparently the organiser had no experience running a competition previously so they "borrowed" the T&C from somewhere because they looked official. To their credit they adopted a more reasonable approach in 2010 and even asked for my opinion before opening the competition which I believe was far more successful.

[Longshots]

Well done William, I was sent a link to a "Charity Photographic Competition" in 2009 and found a similar set of T&C. When I contacted the organiser she was appreciative of my concerns and had been wondering why the entry level had been so low given the publicity they had aimed at camera clubs. It was heartening to think so many photographers actually read the T&C and voted with their feet.

Apparently the organiser had no experience running a competition previously so they "borrowed" the T&C from somewhere because they looked official. To their credit they adopted a more reasonable approach in 2010 and even asked for my opinion before opening the competition which I believe was far more successful.

That's so often the case.

I often approach an initial chat with exactly that approach, of explaining why so many people will not enter a competition which is unfair.

I will then offer to either supply or recheck a new set of terms and conditions that are acceptable.

One of my personal aims with the PhotoWatchDog site (which will be self funded) is to offer organisers a set of terms and conditions that is acceptable to the wide majority of entrants, regardless of them being professional or amateurs. I actually find more interest in the discussion of this topic from semi pros and amateurs.

[Fantasyphoto]

.....One of my personal aims with the PhotoWatchDog site (which will be self funded) is to offer organisers a set of terms and conditions that is acceptable to the wide majority of entrants, regardless of them being professional or amateurs. I actually find more interest in the discussion of this topic from semi pros and amateurs.

Thanks for stepping up to the plate, I guess most pro's would not be that interested in competitions anyway unless they pertain to their particular industry and may help with industry presence.

When I was working professionally I did not care what happened to my images as I was paid to shoot and assign copyright immediately, in fact I rarely saw the results so I only knew if they were acceptable if I kept winning new contracts from my employers.

Now that I have returned to the amateur fold I can afford to enjoy my photography more and be precious over copyright again :th3:

[kiwi]

Do you though guys think that the vast majorty of amateurs really care about copyright ? You could probably put in bold black letters at the start of the competition entry "GIVE US YOUR PHOTOS AND WE NOW OWN THEM FOREVER AND YOU WILL NEVER GET A CENT FROM THEM EVER" and in tiny 6 font "you might just win a plasma TV if you are lucky" and still get flooded with 1000's of images.

I do think it's great that the competition t&c's are being looked at, I just wonder how many entrants really do care.

[Fantasyphoto]

Do you though guys think that the vast majorty of amateurs really care about copyright ?

I think if you changed the term to vast majority of "photographers" the answer would be YES but if you used the term vast majority of "entrants" the answer would be NO.

I believe the vast majority of entrants would be Gen Y... enuf sed!

[Xenedis]

Do you though guys think that the vast majorty of amateurs really care about copyright ?

My belief is that many people entering competitions don't even know about copyright.


I do think it's great that the competition t&c's are being looked at, I just wonder how many entrants really do care.

If people can be educated about copyright and other issues pertaining to intellectual property (especially their own), then they can make an informed choice as to whether or not they care.

[kiwi]

Yes, that's probably the challenge

[Rod038]

The Oberon Shire Council in NSW have had a Photographic Competition that has ended recently with a similar set of rules. Although they only accepted printed photos. Each entrant could submit up to 6 photos for each category.

I think most people who enter these types of competitions would be happy to get a prize and maybe see their photo in print some where and not so much concerned about too much else.

Its a bit of fun for the locals and if you don't want to enter you don't have too.

[kiwi]

would make a good poll here....even if you know and understand taht you are losing your copyright, would you still enter in order to have a chance at a prize ? :)

I think it's great though that there are those that will protect us against ourselves in this regard

[Xenedis]

would make a good poll here....even if you know and understand taht you are losing your copyright, would you still enter in order to have a chance at a prize ? :)

I personally wouldn't, as I'm not driven by competitions or prizes, and wouldn't ever elect to hand my rights to someone else.

[Longshots]

Yes, Rod038,

1st Point - actually when an organiser only wants printed photos, (while completely understanding that they can be scanned) there is less of a concern that they will use the images as a commodity and use them fro anything and everything in the future.

2nd Point, Yes I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to do as you say and win a prize. But the more cynical councils/gov departments/etc want the use of all images entered, winner, finalists, and losers. Yes I completely agree with you that people dont have to enter these things. But when companies/councils/gov departments do this as a way of gaining imagery, instead of paying the same people for the use of their images, then it comes down to a particular business law. I recently suggested to Tourism Australia, that their original Terms and Conditions were so manifestly unfair, that they would be in my opinion in danger if being accused of unconscionable conduct. This was the first time I'd suggested that a company or organisation was in breach of the ACCC rules, when it came to a photographic competition. Despite a great deal of negative publicity from many levels of the media on those original Terms and Conditions, TA, had done nothing. Interestingly after I discretely mentioned to those at the top, that I thought that they were in breach of this, the terms and conditions were changed within 24 hours. It wasnt a huge turnaround in their stance, but it was a significant change, because of this.

As I said, I can assure you that there are two different type of intents that motivate competitions -

1) is a genuine photo competition which both promotes a product, with the end result in winners, finalists and those who didnt succeed - who by entering agree to give the organiser a licence to use the images to promote the competition.

and then there is

2) a competition which is organised purely to acquire as many images as possible to produce an image bank, for the long term future use by the organiser, or one that can even be used in the future to produce as an image bank that can hold a significant valuable asset. The organiser, places little importance on the winner or finalists, as that is the least important aspect of their intent. Their goal is to produce something that will entice those to enter, and the organiser hopes or trusts, that many of the entrants will simply not read, not understand or simply not care, about the issue of giving away the entrants licence to use the image.


Unconscionable Conduct - what is it:

Its a term from the Trade Practices Act - to be specific Section 51AC - and this is what it means:
What is unconscionable conduct?

Being taken advantage of in a way that offends the conscience is known as unconscionable conduct. The Trade Practices Act recognises that there may be circumstances where the manner in which a contract was executed was unconscionable, such as a disparity in bargaining power.

Which can be found in detail on this link:

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml?itemId=303748

Since that experience, I've found this term to be an excellent one to remind competition organisers, that while they may want to avoid behaving in a fair manner, they cannot avoid the ACCC :)

[Rod038]

Thank you for making that clear William. I agree. When I first read the terms and conditions of the Oberon Competition I did think that they trying to gain imagery for free but did not know it maybe illegal. I have added some of the terms and conditions of entry.

-All entries must be supplied as A4 or 8inch x 10inch format, card mounted with no glass frame.

-Copyright in all images remains the property of the Contestant.

-By entering this competition, the Contestant grants Oberon Council a permanent, irrevocable, free, world-wide, non-exclusive licence to use the images submitted for this competition as the Oberon Council pleases in any and all media and any promotional activity including but not limited to websites, brochures, displays and advertising and/or promotional activity of any kind anywhere at anytime.

[OzzieTraveller]

G'day all - esp William

I will take many of your thoughts on board in my letter to the organisers

Regards, Phil

[Longshots]

Hi - ta for everyone's positive comments :)

Rod038 - its not exactly illegal (although I'm no lawyer - however its not always "right". As many have pointed out, its the choice of the entrant to agree to these things. Sometimes though they are simple and in plain english. And other times they cover 3 pages of clauses and terms, and are in font size of 6 or less (worse one I reviewed some time ago, was on the web, and the terms text was in grey, on a grey beackground - clearly deliberately making it difficult to read).

With the Oberon Competition, I would suggest that they've lifted T & C from somewhere else, and their legal person wanted to do their best to protect their boss/client. The fact that they want the entries as prints card backed and not digital entries, would suggest a typical case of legal overkill :)

[dbax]

interesting read, thanks all for your thoughts and comments and thank you William for on going campaign:th3: