Fair Price ? Whats concidered Fair Price

[Roosta]

I'm toying with the idea of starting a small Photo business, not looking at taking on the big boys, no shoulder barging. I was speaking to a model after a photo shoot I attended the other night, she was keen to get some of the shots the group had taken. Not all of the togs there where either keen on the shots they had taken and or that intrested in supporting her idea. (shoot was using different flash/night and angles Shadowing subjects and shutter speed effect)

I showed her some of the pics i'd taken and she was very keen to get her hands on them for her bio, So what i'm asking, is there a fair price to start at? was looking at may-be putting forward a propsal to do a shoot, PP the images she wants and put together something she can use as a bio.

Are there any legal ramifications on adding a watermark to the images I take/took if she hasn't paid for them and can I use them as advertising. She has given me her approval to put them on photo forums/sites Flicker and the like.

Any help/guidance would be greatly appreciated.

[I @ M]

Have a look at Model Mayhem (http://www.modelmayhem.com/) and see how many people there are in your area advertising that they either want to be paid for being photographed or at least happy to work on a TFP (Time For Print) basis to both build their own portfolio and the photographers.
There are relatively few aspiring or working models that want to pay to be photographed.:(

[Dan Cripps]

There are relatively few aspiring or working models that want to pay to be photographed.:(

That's generally true, unless you can produce something they can't get for free.

[ricktas]

Fair price. Sit down and work out your costs. Consider : gear, travel, printing, processing, time taken etc. basically work out what it costs you per hour to do the job. Then double it. That is your hourly rate, so from that you can start to work out how much to charge. based on your costs.

Agree with Andrew though, what was the deal for the model attending this shoot, was she paid, was it some sort of agreed exchange for her time etc. You need to consider that in the scheme of things.

[Roosta]

Fair price. Sit down and work out your costs. Consider : gear, travel, printing, processing, time taken etc. basically work out what it costs you per hour to do the job. Then double it. That is your hourly rate, so from that you can start to work out how much to charge. based on your costs.

Agree with Andrew though, what was the deal for the model attending this shoot, was she paid, was it some sort of agreed exchange for her time etc. You need to consider that in the scheme of things.


Thanks for that piece of advice Rick, will need to really look into this. Not only cost to myself, but family time aswell, given I work away over half the year (mining industry)

I attended a Photographic workshop run through my local Pro Camera Shop, They had two pros bring out some studio flash gear, 4 x models and different lenses for people to try. We (the attendies) paid for the evening and to which I can only presume the 4 x models where paid for from what we where charged. They provided their knowledge and CC on our shots and techniques, how to use flash Blah Blah Blah, (well worth it). Wanting to use same model to start with, both in agreeance to styles of shot, so I'll have to take it from there, she is keen to get pictures and i'm keen for the experience.

[Dan Cripps]

I personally wouldn't be comfortable selling images created within the environment you have described. I also wouldn't use them in a portfolio. If you've been advised, helped, guided and critiqued during a shoot, you can't really claim 100% technical or creative ownership.

I think any prospective client has to right to expect anything they see in a photographers portfolio has been directed, captured and edited by said photographer.

[farquar]

Fair price. Sit down and work out your costs. Consider : gear, travel, printing, processing, time taken etc. basically work out what it costs you per hour to do the job. Then double it.

Out of interest, is this based on a particular business model Rick? One that you have proven to be a sustainable way to run a business? Do you believe this to be the industry norm when it comes to how to price your work? Or is it just a nice way to get a figure on an invoice?

Re the OP. I don't think you are ready to start charging for your images mate. Especially not images from a workshop! If you want to start a business (and there is a hell of a lot of research in the real world you should be doing before making the leap there) I suggest you go down the TFP route to build your portfolio. After all, that is what everyone else does.

[ricktas]

Out of interest, is this based on a particular business model Rick? One that you have proven to be a sustainable way to run a business? Do you believe this to be the industry norm when it comes to how to price your work? Or is it just a nice way to get a figure on an invoice?

Re the OP. I don't think you are ready to start charging for your images mate. Especially not images from a workshop! If you want to start a business (and there is a hell of a lot of research in the real world you should be doing before making the leap there) I suggest you go down the TFP route to build your portfolio. After all, that is what everyone else does.

Yes it is directly related to a proven business model. Of which there are several variations. Whilst you might be a photographer, my background is business.

[ricktas]

I personally wouldn't be comfortable selling images created within the environment you have described. I also wouldn't use them in a portfolio. If you've been advised, helped, guided and critiqued during a shoot, you can't really claim 100% technical or creative ownership.

I think any prospective client has to right to expect anything they see in a photographers portfolio has been directed, captured and edited by said photographer.

Read the post. The thread starter states that they would be organising a separate shoot for the model, not using the ones created from the course shoot.

[Dan Cripps]

Fair price. Sit down and work out your costs. Consider : gear, travel, printing, processing, time taken etc. basically work out what it costs you per hour to do the job. Then double it. That is your hourly rate, so from that you can start to work out how much to charge. based on your costs.


What if costs per hour x 2 = failed business.

Is that fair?

I think that's an overly simplistic model.

[Dan Cripps]

Read the post. The thread starter states that they would be organising a separate shoot for the model, not using the ones created from the course shoot.

The OP is ambiguous.

[ricktas]

The OP is ambiguous.

How so?


looking at may-be putting forward a propsal to do a shoot, PP the images she wants and put together something she can use as a bio

is fairly clear!

[Wayne]

What if costs per hour x 2 = failed business.

Is that fair?

I think that's an overly simplistic model.

I find it hard to believe that anyone who can do business with a 100% margin would find it doesn't pay the bills. Unless you have poor spending habits, and don't pay your taxes for years and it catches up with you etc. I bet every business would love to run with margins of 100%

[ricktas]

What if costs per hour x 2 = failed business.

Is that fair?

I think that's an overly simplistic model.

So you include in your calculations:

Staff costs
rental costs
insurance costs
business expenses (printing, phone etc)
taxation commitments
etc

You get a total for all your business costs (whether by week, month or year) and then double it. Use that figure to work out a rate. It is a known standard business model.

Another alternative is to work out what you want to earn in a year (after costs). Say it was (for ease) $52,000, thus it is $1000.00 per week (ignoring that there are 52.4 weeks in a year), then to earn that $1000.00 per week, you need to work out all your costs for a week, add on the $1000.00 and you know what your weekly turnover needs to be. All good business plans have a model, which one you use is up to you, but there are many that work.

[Dan Cripps]

I find it hard to believe that anyone who can do business with a 100% margin would find it doesn't pay the bills. Unless you have poor spending habits, and don't pay your taxes for years and it catches up with you etc. I bet every business would love to run with margins of 100%

Depends how many hours you can reliably invoice every week, I guess...

Talk to anyone in the retail clothing industry and ask how easy it is to pay the bills with a 100% margin. ;)

[farquar]

Yes it is directly related to a proven business model. Of which there are several variations. Whilst you might be a photographer, my background is business.

Rick, thanks for clearing that up. Are you able to point us in the direction of where to find more detailed information on this particular business model for a photogtaphy business?

I must say, by your tone I feel that you are making the assumption that I, as a photographer, am less qualified to be a successful business person than you are. My background (and current situation for that matter) are unknown to you so I find this assumption to be offensive.

Is your 'background in business' a background in the photography business?

I feel that we are getting a little off-topic here so perhaps we should start another thread. Apologies to Roosta, although perhaps you found this enlightening.

[farquar]

is to work out what you want to earn in a year (after costs). Say it was (for ease) $52,000, thus it is $1000.00 per week (ignoring that there are 52.4 weeks in a year), then to earn that $1000.00 per week, you need to work out all your costs for a week, add on the $1000.00 and you know what your weekly turnover needs to be. All good business plans have a model, which one you use is up to you, but there are many that work.

I can see this being a much more suitable model for a photography studio to operate with. Well articulated Rick. Very helpful post.

[ricktas]

My tone relates to the PM interaction between us, and as I discussed there was to do with you referring to a member as 'foolish', which as advised breaches the site rules!

My background is a degree in business, not photography as a specific. My posts are merely pointing out differing business models that the thread starter could consider as a starting point. I have not once made reference to your business (which I know nothing about, as you have stated). I have not called you foolish or any other word as a reflection on your business, so how you can be offended is quite amazing to me, unless you are offended that I warned you that I would ban you if you continue to make statements directed at members, rather than the issue.

I suggest you drop it now, or I will ban you!

[Kym]

What if costs per hour x 2 = failed business.
Is that fair?
I think that's an overly simplistic model.

Rick's formula is generically correct in business. I worked to something like that when doing contract software development a few years ago.
In fact my uplift was more - but my skills were in demand and I had a family to feed.
Part of the problem with photography is an over supply of skilled people, or people who think they are skilled :eek:

[Dan Cripps]

or people who think they are skilled :eek:

Aint that the truth! :D

[Roosta]

Re the OP. I don't think you are ready to start charging for your images mate. Especially not images from a workshop! If you want to start a business (and there is a hell of a lot of research in the real world you should be doing before making the leap there) I suggest you go down the TFP route to build your portfolio. After all, that is what everyone else does.

Sorry, What does TFP and OP mean?

This is why i'm asking some general thoughts and ideas (good and bad) that AP members have had/experienced with starting and or running a business. I can understand some of what your stating to a business model, but I believe, if we where all put of by a little hard work, we'd not have the people producing what their producing today. In another thread (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?65868-How-d-you-get-started) Redgum makes some very valid points, "Back in the day stuff" I understand that tax laws, ideoligy, business cases and the like have moved on leaps and bounds.

[Roosta]

I personally wouldn't be comfortable selling images created within the environment you have described. I also wouldn't use them in a portfolio. If you've been advised, helped, guided and critiqued during a shoot, you can't really claim 100% technical or creative ownership.

I think any prospective client has to right to expect anything they see in a photographers portfolio has been directed, captured and edited by said photographer.

I agree, I wasn't looking to SELL the firast lot of shots I took, only to use as a base point to start with. I wouldn't expect to take credit for something that I didn't do completly myself.

[ricktas]

Sorry, What does TFP and OP mean?

This is why i'm asking some general thoughts and ideas (good and bad) that AP members have had/experienced with starting and or running a business. I can understand some of what your stating to a business model, but I believe, if we where all put of by a little hard work, we'd not have the people producing what their producing today. In another thread (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?65868-How-d-you-get-started) Redgum makes some very valid points, "Back in the day stuff" I understand that tax laws, ideoligy, business cases and the like have moved on leaps and bounds.

OP Means Original Poster. ie the person who started the thread (now called thread starter in vbulletin4). TFP means Time For Prints. It is a recognised contractual method that benefits bot the photographer and the model. The photographer gets experience at photographing models, in turn the model gives her time for free, with the agreement that the photographer provide her some prints for her portfolio. Sometimes in recent years it is referred to as TFCD (or other nomenclature), cause the images are supplied on CD rather than actual prints. If doing TFP, it is worthwhile have a contract written and signed by all parties, that states exactly how and when the images can be used. IE, the model can use them for her/his portfolio, but cannot sell them etc. You should be able to find a good TFP contract on the net using google

[Roosta]

Well, Didn't expect to get this sort of input. My original question was generically worded, and not meant to upset the people making a living out of taking pictures, whether they are making a good living or simpling exsisting.

I thank you for the feedback, I'm mearly playing with the idea that was put to me. The model in question has just returned from overseas and looking to start a bio of herself, I was in discussion with her, I don't class myself as anything more than a rank amature at this, which to me as my wife puts it (a artful expression, from someone who says no artful bones in their body). That said, I felt well, if I can make a few dollars from my hobby (artful expression) why not. So, if I say charge her $100.00 for half a day, I feel thats a good out come, due to time taken to shoot, PP and re PP if requied to get her desired result. It may have benefeted both of us. (I'm not touching what pro togs can/do/might charge)

I was trying to get to the point of, whether I could/should charge for my time, or whether I should use it as a learning curve. I don't intend to start a studio business up (farquar, not sure as to your business adventures, but we've obviously struck a cord, maybe you could shed some light as to what works for you, if you indeed run a photographic venture, thats entirely your choice)

And thanks Rick for some General advice on one of many business case's available. My intention wasn't to have a person with qualifications set up and run something in the way of a business plan, over a forum, but atleast we seem to be using the forum, as it should, healthy discussion.

I hope this clears some points up. :eek:

I didn't and wont take offence to someone offering their opion, thats what i'd asked for. So thanks for some good advice. Will submit some pics and see what the wider AP communities take is on them, and run from their.

[Roosta]

OP Means Original Poster. ie the person who started the thread (now called thread starter in vbulletin4).
TFP means Time For Prints. Sometimes in recent years it is referred to as TFCD (or other nomenclature), cause the images are supplied on CD rather than actual prints. If doing TFP, it is worthwhile have a contract written and signed by all parties, that states exactly how and when the images can be used. IE, the model can use them for her/his portfolio, but cannot sell them etc. You should be able to find a good TFP contract on the net using google

Right'o, that helps heaps Rick, understand where you're coming from. The CD idea sounds like agood idea, and I see I could have been looking into this in a selfish way, not taking the models time into account. That wasn't my intention, so thanks for clearing that up. Will discuss the ideas with her and she how see feels about it.
:th3:

P.S, I need to get a book on all the Abrev's, I thought the millatary was bad for them, may need to have a page dedicated to them, so the not so uptodate people can get their heads around them. :D

[reflect]

Winning lotto does sound easier!!

[skunky]

Well this has certainly been a most informational thread.

For those looking to learn a little more about what a TFP contract is, along with a couple of examples:

What's TFP? (http://www.brighthub.com/multimedia/photography/articles/14239.aspx)
TFP Contract Example 1 (http://www.kaorinight.com/tfpmmr.html)
TFP Contract Example 2 (http://nostalgia-studios.com/tfp.pdf)
A thread on model releases from this forum (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?30721-FREE-to-use-Model-releases-etc)

[True Colours]

I have recently been asked to provide a photo that I took and they want to put it into a book that will be released sometime in August 2015. I have been offered $50.00 plus accreditation plus two copies of the book. What is the going rate for this type of request?

[ricktas]

I have recently been asked to provide a photo that I took and they want to put it into a book that will be released sometime in August 2015. I have been offered $50.00 plus accreditation plus two copies of the book. What is the going rate for this type of request?

It depends. What is the book about and what is it's market? If for example it is going on the cover of the next book from 50 Shades of Grey, you could command a good price, but if is the upper combucta ladies winter festival of the cabbage, with a possible distribution of 100-200 copies, then take your $50 and run.

It is not as simple as how much is it worth to me to give my photo over for a book.

[Mark L]

I have recently been asked to provide a photo that I took and they want to put it into a book that will be released sometime in August 2015. I have been offered $50.00 plus accreditation plus two copies of the book. What is the going rate for this type of request?

You need to ask them for at least six copies of the book.:rolleyes:

[Redgum]

Bit late I guess but if you want to know how to run a business (any sort) simply go to your local bankruptcy court and have a good read of those in your industry that failed. It appears people are most truthful when they are trying to get out of paying bills. And judges are meticulous with the recording of events. If time is short simply read of those businesses with less than five years service.
Believe me, the reasons for failure are very common (often mentioned here) and you stand a better chance of surviving if you understand the "real" pitfalls.