Who's buying the Olympus E5?

[Ross the fiddler]

The Olympus E5 was bagged in the rumour sites because of over expectations & now Olympus is trying to get enough out there for all the sales orders. It seems to be appreciated for what it can do & its great IQ. I wish I could afford one.

Let's hear your comments.

[peterb666]

Not buying it. While general image quaity is no doubt very good and the are some fabulous Olympus lenses to go with it, it still has the same old sensor that is quite terrible when it comes to long-exposure image noise, limited dynamic range and it costs far too much. You can have the Nikon D7000 for less and it is a vastly superior camera in most respects.

The E5 is what the E3 should have been when it was first released.

Sticking with my Olympus E-P1 and Nikon D90 for a while.

[griffljg]

I am a bit betwixt and between. On one hand, while I appreciate the improvements over the E-3, I don't feel that they go far enough to persuade me to upgrade from my E-3 to an E-5. On the other hand, because of my investment in fine Zuiko glass, if Olympus decides that this is the final four thirds camera, I might just be forced to go out and get one before they go out of stock.

As an aside, while I do have major problems with high ISO noise on the E-3, I have no problems with long exposures (I just lock on ISO100) or with dynamic range. I just take all my photos in raw and process them afterwards with Olympus Viewer. Now if I could only get Olympus Viewer to work under Linux, I'd be happy. :)

[Ross the fiddler]

Not buying it. While general image quaity is no doubt very good and the are some fabulous Olympus lenses to go with it, it still has the same old sensor that is quite terrible when it comes to long-exposure image noise, limited dynamic range and it costs far too much. You can have the Nikon D7000 for less and it is a vastly superior camera in most respects.

The E5 is what the E3 should have been when it was first released.

Sticking with my Olympus E-P1 and Nikon D90 for a while.


*removed - site rule breach*


BTW, Camera Store in SA are advertising the E5 for $1825, a pretty good price so far.

[peterb666]

I want to do 6 minute shots, not just 6 second shots. I have plenty at over 30 seconds.

[Ross the fiddler]

I want to do 6 minute shots, not just 6 second shots. I have plenty at over 30 seconds.

Hi Peter,
I have another Peter that would take up the challenge out of curiousity to see how the E5 would compare with your D90 for a 6 min exposure & it would also be interesting to see how well the D7000 would do it too (if anybody has one). Here is the thread I used your comment in (hope you don't mind) to see what responses would come. *removed - refer to site rule: 9*

I'd like to see just how clean other recent cameras can do these long exposures too & how well they cope with it.

Thanks for your comments.

Cheers

[colhellmuth]

I have just purchased it (E5) from *removed - site rule breach - please read site rule : 19* . Haven't had time to test it thoroughly yet.

[Ross the fiddler]

It's great to hear & I hope you have lots of fun with it. I'm jealous. :o I think it is interesting (even amusing) how Canon have added some of the features of Olympus on their 60D with articulating screen, art filters & digital level meter. I've been enjoying those features on my E30 for a while.

What have you upgraded from?

[colhellmuth]

I Upgraded from the E520 which I previously upgraded from the E330.

[Ross the fiddler]

You should really enjoy that upgrade then & the heavier body might be noticable for a little while but you should get used to it & appreciate the ruggedness of it. I was really impressed with the move from my E520 to the E30 which I got because I couldn't wait for the next model to come when I could buy the E30 for $800 used early last year. I'll be looking forward to seeing some photos from your E5.

The E5 is really great with its weather proofing (I have the 14-54 II lens that is weather proof but that's all) but I wouldn't test it like Mark Humpage did in Iceland http://www.youtube.com/user/markhumpage#p/a/u/0/SfxUHGziwgg

Enjoy, cheers

[JM Tran]

I'd buy another Oly DSLR when they can match the noise levels of even entry level Canon/Nikon/Pentax/Sony etc

[Ross the fiddler]

I don't know where you have been or what information you are reading & from what sources because samples have been put up on the web of JPEGs (& RAW files) from the E5 in some places without any noise filtering applied to show how much improved it is without it & how clean it is when properly applied as you would for any other camera & the critics come out of the woodwork to run it down as much as they can citing those images as the end result. Thankfully, there are those that can apply some open minded appraisal/review of the camera from a few magazines & other web sites (so far) with some high praise for the E5. I wish I could get one.

Robin Wong has really shown how good the E5 is & has put a series together for the camera in his blog http://robinwong.blogspot.com/

[JM Tran]

I dont read info about Oly as I have owned/used some in the past and can compare them to my pro and semi pro Canon/Nikon/Pentax bodies in the past - you know, my own experience from work and fun for clients and myself?

How often have you printed photos at 45x30 inch sizes? I do that weekly for clients, and sorry - as much as I am a fan of Oly - they wont be punching into that weight category for a while yet.

You seem to be a staunch supporter of Olympus but yet seem to lack extensive experience in other brands, or you could be an Oly rep.....I dont know.

[Ross the fiddler]

I'm just disappointed how much negative comments seem to come from Canikon users & criticism is usually based on past Oly models & comparing them to today's models from Canikon. The Oly E30 is a great camera (that I use) but now the E5 is even better with exceptional detail coming from the same sensor by using a much lighter AA filter & dealing with any moire affect with its JPEG engine & also much improved detail (as well as all the other improvements). If your looking for extreme high ISO performance then go & buy the other cameras, but if you want a very rugged, weather proof camera body to go with your Zuiko Digital Pro or Super Pro lenses, then this will bring out the best of those lenses. Obviously only those interested in this will bother to investigate it & I know it may not attract non Olympus users (well not many), but that's all about individuals choices. It's just sad that some people are ready to run down another brand without all the knowledge. It's a bit like saying, mine's bigger than yours. ;)

No, I'm not any sort of sales rep at all, just someone who enjoys the features on the camera brand/model that I chose to go with.

Today Olympus has announced new consumer products with the EPL-2 micro 4/3s & a few P&S cameras with the top one having a Zuiko lens & accessories. Great for the bottom end of photography & the EPL-2 should produce the same quality as the E5 (if fitted with the same lenses). Check out Olympus Australia if interested.

I'm interested to know what the top end micro 4/3s model will be like when it is expected to be announced somewhere around March/April & then watch the other brands as they try to come with competing cameras. Remember, the other brands of camera makers have features in their new models that came from Olympus originally. :p :D

[I @ M]

Gees Ross, settle mate, in this thread I see only one "anti Oly" post so I wouldn't be calling it a "canikon' tirade.

Each to their own and people choose one brand over another for may reasons so if brand "O" isn't as well represented in the market place as brands "C", "N", "P" or "S" one must look at factors other than pure image quality that unbalance the playing field.
First on the list must be advertising dollars spent to promote the brands ( a huge percentage of the consumer market are swayed by that ) and then service and support must be up to par for commercial users but we see on this forum and others excellent results from all brands of cameras so make like a duck with a drop of H2o on its back.

Don't let any brand comments spoil the enjoyment of YOUR photography. :)

[peterb666]

As an owner and user of both Olympus (Pen E-P1) and Nikon (D90) cameras, and I think there are compelling reasons why the E-5 suits people with some decent Four Thirds lenses. It is no doubt the best Four Thirds camera and very capable. The problem is more to do with the pricing. It is more expensive that the Nikon D7000, Nikon D300s or Canon 60D. If have no bonds to any of these brands, and then make a list of pros and cons of each camera, what are you most likely to choose?

From a system perspective, where are the fast primes for this semi-pro camera? It is great that Olympus has some of the best and certainly fastest zooms available, and they are modestly priced too, but with no prospect of future lens development in Four Thirds for at least the time being, this must be a worry for the serious photographer who is likely to be entering into this segment of the market.

Just moving on, the E-PL2 looks very good indeed. I am surprised that it appears to have leapfrogged the E-P2 in a number of areas and has certainly made up for some of the major limitations of the E-PL1 such as no remote release and the lower top shutter speed. I use 1/4000s quite a lot with my Voigtlander 25mm f/0.95. Also nice is the dedicated magnify button (I believe) and the ability to reassign the movie on/off button to something else. The availability of the new 14-42 kit lens that now has internal focussing is another triple-plus. Yeah, you can now use Cokin filters successfully. The E-PL2 should be blindingly good value.

I am looking forward to an E-P3 announcement in a few months time. I expect they will up the LCD resolution again, maybe some weather sealing and I very much hope a move away from the Panasonic sensors. I can see myself upgrading later in the year.

[Ross the fiddler]

Gees Ross, settle mate, in this thread I see only one "anti Oly" post so I wouldn't be calling it a "canikon' tirade.

Each to their own and people choose one brand over another for may reasons so if brand "O" isn't as well represented in the market place as brands "C", "N", "P" or "S" one must look at factors other than pure image quality that unbalance the playing field.
First on the list must be advertising dollars spent to promote the brands ( a huge percentage of the consumer market are swayed by that ) and then service and support must be up to par for commercial users but we see on this forum and others excellent results from all brands of cameras so make like a duck with a drop of H2o on its back.

Don't let any brand comments spoil the enjoyment of YOUR photography. :)


Thanks mate. I've just become slightly defensive because of a few critics I've encountered & also some of the British magazines in the past have clearly demonstrated a bias against Olympus, citing features in the main two brands & those same features were in the Olympus model & were not mentioned but highlighted the shortcomings instead.

I need to get out & get more photos from around the Blue Mountains (& get fit), but I try to get bird shots around home & macro stuff as well. It's all fun.

[Ross the fiddler]

Thanks Peter for those positive comments. The EPL-2 sounds like it could be a great secondary camera to have & also with the 14-150 lens, would be a good allround light camera to take when the DSLR is going to be too big & heavy for certain occasions. The 75-300 lens should be another great lens to have in the bag as well (when it's released). I am curious to know how well the add on fisheye, wide & macro lenses will work, but if (IF) they produce good results, could be a compact array of lenses. I wouldn't rush that until I was convinced it produced great results & the price was right. I guess we'll see. What am I saying? :confused013 I won't be rushing anything because I have to hold off spending for a little while. I spent all my quota last year for a while (that's what my wife reckons anyhow). It's fun window shopping in the mean time.

[JM Tran]

I'm just disappointed how much negative comments seem to come from Canikon users & criticism is usually based on past Oly models & comparing them to today's models from Canikon. The Oly E30 is a great camera (that I use) but now the E5 is even better with exceptional detail coming from the same sensor by using a much lighter AA filter & dealing with any moire affect with its JPEG engine & also much improved detail (as well as all the other improvements). If your looking for extreme high ISO performance then go & buy the other cameras, but if you want a very rugged, weather proof camera body to go with your Zuiko Digital Pro or Super Pro lenses, then this will bring out the best of those lenses. Obviously only those interested in this will bother to investigate it & I know it may not attract non Olympus users (well not many), but that's all about individuals choices. It's just sad that some people are ready to run down another brand without all the knowledge. It's a bit like saying, mine's bigger than yours. ;)

No, I'm not any sort of sales rep at all, just someone who enjoys the features on the camera brand/model that I chose to go with.

Today Olympus has announced new consumer products with the EPL-2 micro 4/3s & a few P&S cameras with the top one having a Zuiko lens & accessories. Great for the bottom end of photography & the EPL-2 should produce the same quality as the E5 (if fitted with the same lenses). Check out Olympus Australia if interested.

I'm interested to know what the top end micro 4/3s model will be like when it is expected to be announced somewhere around March/April & then watch the other brands as they try to come with competing cameras. Remember, the other brands of camera makers have features in their new models that came from Olympus originally. :p :D

I am coming from a more professional background of using gear for work in demanding situations. So I let my actions speak louder than my words by posting up pics from the variety of cameras I use for work. Instead of staunchly defending Olympus every time, how about you show us more shots from your Oly cameras and lenses? Actions will always reverberate more loudly than....words on a forum.

On a side note, I have been there from the beginning with the Oly E1 and so on, and currently have a Pen and some Zuiko and Panasonic lenses, for fun.

[Ross the fiddler]

I am coming from a more professional background of using gear for work in demanding situations. So I let my actions speak louder than my words by posting up pics from the variety of cameras I use for work. Instead of staunchly defending Olympus every time, how about you show us more shots from your Oly cameras and lenses? Actions will always reverberate more loudly than....words on a forum.

On a side note, I have been there from the beginning with the Oly E1 and so on, and currently have a Pen and some Zuiko and Panasonic lenses, for fun.

Yes, you're right. I have been "hiding my light under the bushel" so to speak & have mostly been posting my photos on a dedicated Olympus site, so I suppose that doesn't help the case for Olympus. I will post some of my interesting photos here as soon as I can sort them etc., as it does take time & I also have to keep my wife & family happy. In the mean time you can, if you're interested, check out my macro shot of a spider at night using a Sigma 150 macro lens & twin RC flashes with my Oly E30 camera here http://e-group.uk.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11821&highlight=hungry+spider+night

Cheers

[peterb666]

I am curious to know how well the add on fisheye, wide & macro lenses will work, but if (IF) they produce good results, could be a compact array of lenses.

I noted those earlier today when reading the Digital Camera Resourse site. The macro is interesting and one would assume that it would have to be a doublet lens (or you would hope), in which case it could be quite good. It must have a 58mm thread and a step-down ring for the standard zoom. I suspect that Olympus may be recycling some of the add-on lenes for their earlier high-spec compact digital cameras of years past.

Edit: Specs are already up on the Olympus Australia web site. Here is a link to the close up lens (you can find the others under the lens product descriptions) http://www.olympus.com.au/component/option,com_product/id,476/Itemid,69/task,detail/

Unfortunately, not a doublet and only extends the close focus distance marginally, in the case of the 14-42 Mk II, from 0.3m to 0.24m. As the old 14-42 focussed down to 0.25m, just regaining lost ground.

May be more useful on the 14-150 as you get to 0.35m, presumably throughout the zoom range. That would be quite nice at the 150mm.

[piXelatedEmpire]

After seeing some of the results produced with the E5, I'm definitely considering purchasing one.

I only upgraded from the E620 to the E30 about 3 months ago, as it was a steal at $750 brand new from a local store. And i love the extra functionaility of the E30. But the IQ I've seen coming out of the E5.. wow. :th3:

[Ross the fiddler]

After seeing some of the results produced with the E5, I'm definitely considering purchasing one.

I only upgraded from the E620 to the E30 about 3 months ago, as it was a steal at $750 brand new from a local store. And i love the extra functionaility of the E30. But the IQ I've seen coming out of the E5.. wow. :th3:

You did very well at that price for the E30 as I paid $800 2nd hand for mine early last year. The more I buy, the more my wish list seems to grow :(.

[Ross the fiddler]

I'm trying to start a thread to show a few of my bird shots, but I'm not having much luck with adding the photos. Here are 3 in the gallery.
http://www.ausphotography.net.au/gallery/showimage.php?i=1334&catid=newimages
http://www.ausphotography.net.au/gallery/showimage.php?i=1333&catid=newimages
http://www.ausphotography.net.au/gallery/showimage.php?i=1333&catid=newimages

I've tried looking for hints on how to do it without success, so if someone could point me in the right direction please, it would be appreciated.

[ricktas]

I've tried looking for hints on how to do it without success, so if someone could point me in the right direction please, it would be appreciated.

It is in the HOW To section of the new AP Library : http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showlibrary.php?title=Books:Howto_Book

[Ross the fiddler]

It is in the HOW To section of the new AP Library : http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showlibrary.php?title=Books:Howto_Book

Thanks Rick. Now done! The search didn't seem to take me to that section & I couldn't see for looking :confused013 when looking through the forum index. I was trying to add photos from the gallery & didn't try the attachment method (which I had used some time ago).

I will dig out my photos & start to show more of them.

Cheers :food04:

[walterm]

I have ben using an E-510 for some years having migrated from an OM-2 (which my daughter has now 'borrowed' and is stocking up on film)
I hope to get an E-5 this year, I do some work in amateur theatre and the E-5 should give me better noise respnse and I have some good glass, 50-200mm, 50mm and 14-54 Mk1 so I am not planning to jump ship to Canikon

Walter

[Ross the fiddler]

I have ben using an E-510 for some years having migrated from an OM-2 (which my daughter has now 'borrowed' and is stocking up on film)
I hope to get an E-5 this year, I do some work in amateur theatre and the E-5 should give me better noise respnse and I have some good glass, 50-200mm, 50mm and 14-54 Mk1 so I am not planning to jump ship to Canikon

Walter

It will be a great upgrade from the E510 with lots more features & buttons too. I'm sure you will love it & you should get used to the weight increase with the comfortable grip. Your 14-54 lens is weather proofed & having the body to go with it, will give you the possibility to try it at times when you wouldn't take your E510. Another camera that will be interesting will be a higher level (prograde possibly) micro 4/3 body later this year, but those with a preference for the optical view finder will probably take longer before they will change to that (except as a 2nd camera).

I wish you well with whatever you end up upgrading to & I think Olympus has a few more things up their sleeves for this year, so should be interesting seeing what will be on offer.

[olympuse620]

I have just purchased a 35-100 so the E5 will have to wait. Happy with the e620 at the moment my ability does not use it to its full potential.

[Ross the fiddler]

I have just purchased a 35-100 so the E5 will have to wait. Happy with the e620 at the moment my ability does not use it to its full potential.

That sounds very nice! Hope you enjoy using that lovely lens, an even better reason to get a body to get the best out of it (in due course). :)

[walterm]

Hi Ross

Thankyou for your encouragement I am looking forward to amassing the cash and getting my hands on the E-5

Regards

Walter

[Ross the fiddler]

I wish you well Walter & hope you get your new camera soon.

I was alerted to a guy (TimWcanon), being a Canon user, bought an Olympus E5 (previously had an E620) & did a comparison between it & the Canon T2i (on DPReview) & he has a close preference for the E5 giving it a very favourable comment, now he has to decide which one to keep. Here is his comment:

CANON VERSUS OLYMPUS

I posted a message on this forum a few days back after receiving my E-5. I had mentioned I am a long time Canon user (and VERY satisfied) but I also like trying other systems on occasion. I had purchased an E-620 with a 12-60 lens awhile back and was extremely impressed with the image quality. The E-5 has definitely been a step up from that in quality and I had mentioned some of the reasons I had these thoughts.

For the past several days I have been doing what I abhor….pixel peeping comparative shots between two systems. I have always been of the bent that the final product hanging on the wall is what counts and have generally stayed away from looking at a level of detail that my eye would never probably notice when printed anyway.

I used my Canon T2i (image quality is generally felt to be like the 7D) with a battery grip and my favorite walk-around lens; the 17-55 F/2.8 image stabilized. I made comparative shots with the Olympus E-5 and the 12-60 ( I might add that I think the 50mm F/2 Olympus lens (best lens for the $ I have every tried) is even better than the 12-60, but I wanted to use a somewhat comparable telephoto lens). I shot primarily low light or indoor natural lighting in my usual photographic manner. I did try to keep both systems using the same shutter speed, aperture setting, and focal length for the comparative shot. I shot several hundred pictures with both systems in RAW and then sat down at my computer to compare.

My workflow generally involves Lightroom 3 (raw conversion) and CS5. I generally make lens corrections, may do some level adjustments, apply some noise reduction if necessary, add some sharpness if required, and then perhaps do some minor tonal tweaks in PLightroom (clarity)…it is very subjective and totally dependent on my eye.

Here are some of the general conclusions I reached for myself:

White Balance

Both systems did a great job but I felt the Olympus system did a bit better….not enough to make a substantial difference. The E-5 does a much better job than the E-620.

Focusing

Both systems were fast and generally very accurate. I did notice when pixel peeping that the few times there were some focus issues, and they were very minor, they occurred with the Canon system. The Olympus generally was perfect.

Exposure

Canon seems to expose more to the right than the Olympus. Once you get use to each lighting environment it is not difficult to adjust the exposure in the Olympus to more than adequately compensate. One thing I did observe in post processing was that bringing up the exposure a small bit in the Olympus image did not really reveal a lot of shadow noise or other degradation of the picture. In other words, it is a phenomenon that can be fixed by understanding the camera in various lighting demands and making the appropriate adjustment or in post-processing.

Color rendition

I had both systems set to Adobe RGB color space. Color was probably the starkest difference between both systems to my eyes. The Olympus had just a bit more saturation and “punch” in their colors. This is certainly something that could be adjusted in the Canon or Olympus in camera or in post processing. I found the Olympus output to be a bit more pleasing but this is shaving hairs.

Ergonomics

I can operate my Canon with my eyes closed so this comparison was a bit unfair in that I am still getting use to the Olympus layout. However, I did not find anything that gave advantage to one system or another to me. I could work with either. I did the like the balance of the Canon a bit more primarily because of the battery grip. If I keep the E-5, I will definitely add a grip to it as well. It not only helps with the balance between body and lens, but makes vertical shooting much easier.

Workflow

The only difference in workflow had to do with Adobe's refusal to add Olympus to their lens correction in Lightroom. I have PTlens as an editor so I simply used that. This adds a few seconds to the process but nothing major. The amount of post-processing I used for both systems was minor and just involved some minor tweaking if any.

Image Stabilization

The in-body IS of Olympus on the E-5 is terrific. I found it to be much better than the E-620 and every bit as good if not better than the in-lens IS of Canon.

Matching the Settings

One of the things I noticed quite often in identical shooting situations was that the Olympus could use a lower ISO setting with a given lens length, aperture, and shutter speed setting. Many times, I was using ISO 200 on the Olympus and ISO 400 on the Canon to achieve the same setting. In these setting, and again I was pixel peeping, there was definitely less noise in the Olympus shots. This was probably the most dramatic difference I saw between the two systems. This is probably related to the exposure difference I noticed.

OVERALL

Unless I made an operator error, both systems provided excellent image results that without side-by-side comparison would be more than adequate for what I look for in my output.

I am a bit frustrated because I cannot afford to keep both systems. The overall experience I had with this totally subjective testing was that I sort of prefer the Olympus system. After looking at several hundred comparative pictures for the past several days, I can only say that when I did have a preference in the full computer screen comparisons, it was almost always the Olympus picture. I am going to continue shooting with both an eventually make a choice. The great thing, in my mind, is that I can’t make a wrong decision.

I have never used the E-3 or E-30, but I will say that there is a very noticeable difference between the E-620 and the E-5 (and the E-620 is an excellent tool!). If you have an investment in Olympus lenses, I would strongly recommend the E-5. It always looks tempting to llok the other side but sometimes there is no place like home !

It's always nice to get some favourable reviews of any camera under consideration for buying. In my case, it makes me feel more confident with the system I'm using because the critics (of Olympus) can sow seeds of doubt, but the saying of "the grass is always greener in the other paddock" can motivate us to try another system, & maybe making rash decisions in buying & selling only to discover it may not be as perfect as hoped for (in other aspects), though no matter which way a person chooses today, we are spoilt with fantastic results from most new cameras etc. with the ever improving technologies from each manufacturer. The guy above likes to check other systems from his Canon gear & this is why he is now facing a choice between it & Olympus. At least we benefit from his findings.

Cheers,

[Pearly]

I'm using an E30 at the moment and I'm very happy with it. Would love to upgrade to the E5, but I also want the 35-100 lens, so I think the body will have to wait.

[lanegd01]

May be more useful on the 14-150 as you get to 0.35m, presumably throughout the zoom range. That would be quite nice at the 150mm.

I have bought the wcon for my e-pl2. Waiting on delivery. I think they are designed for the 14-42mm (37mm filter size) as the 14-150 has 58mm fliter. I'll let you know when mine arrives.

[Ross the fiddler]

I have bought the wcon for my e-pl2. Waiting on delivery. I think they are designed for the 14-42mm (37mm filter size) as the 14-150 has 58mm fliter. I'll let you know when mine arrives.
I'd be interested to know how you get on with that wcon.

[Ross the fiddler]

I have bought the wcon for my e-pl2. Waiting on delivery. I think they are designed for the 14-42mm (37mm filter size) as the 14-150 has 58mm fliter. I'll let you know when mine arrives.

I'm still enjoying my E30 too. It has performed quite well for my daughters 21st birthday party this past weekend. For a wish list at present, it would have to be the ZD50-200 SWD lens plus EC14 (& EC20) & then the E5. It ain't ganna happen anytime soon, unfortunately.

[lanegd01]

I'd be interested to know how you get on with that wcon.

Still waiting. they told me in stock when I ordered but now stuck on back order!!

[lanegd01]

I'm still enjoying my E30 too. It has performed quite well for my daughters 21st birthday party this past weekend. For a wish list at present, it would have to be the ZD50-200 SWD lens plus EC14 (& EC20) & then the E5. It ain't ganna happen anytime soon, unfortunately.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy the 50-200. It is a great lens and works well with the EC20. I think it might be better with the EC14 but I don't have one to try. My 50-200 is in having the annoying "squeak" fixed atm. This is the only problem I have had with it in two years. It doesn't affect the lens, it just annoys me!