Sigma 50-500 OS vs Canon 100-400 IS

[Tonym]

has anyone used this lens? I can get a reasonable deal on a canon 100-400 IS but was wondering if the extra reach of the Sigma 50- 500 might be better for wildlife. I have looked at the Canon in a few stores and all the info I have read about them seems good and the Canon is a f4.5-5.6 compared to the Sigmas f4.5-6.3, would this make a great deal of difference?

[twister]

Most canon cameras wont auto-focus if the wide-open aperture drops below f/5.6

[ricktas]

What twister means is that if your largest available aperture is 6.3 (the sigma) at the 500 end of the zoom range, there is the risk that your camera may not auto-focus. The Canon 100-400 gets great reviews, I would go that way.

[Riverlander]

I have the Sigma 50-500 OS - had it for just over a week. It autofocusses without any problems -- Sigma have developed a chip (in the lens) which "lies" to the camera, so that the autofocus works at f/6.3. It will hunt a bit in situations where there is no contrast -- so did my 100-400 that I sold about 12 months ago.

The weather here has been crappy, and I have not tested the lens properly yet, but I have got some good bird shots at the 500 end at f/8. Sunshine and warmer today and tomorrow :D

The extra 100mm can be very important if you are a birder and need to crop the images later.

[twister]

Thanks for clarifying Rick!

Riverlander, thanks for your update as well...I wasn't aware the lens still reports itself as 5.6 even though at the longer end it is 6.3...

[Big Pix]

this was shot using the Sigma 50-500.....
http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=65636

[Kym]

The 100-400 is by all reports brilliant, look at Richard Hall's bird posts for examples. Top notch.

These are my recent efforts with the 50-500 on Pentax - no AF issues at all (unless that is a Canon thing)
http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=65553

[kennchris]

I have a 100/400 canon and my daughter-in-law had the 50/500 after doing comparision shots she sold her lens and brought a canon.

[Tonym]

Mmm thats interesting, what were the comparisons? did you crop pics at full zoom? did the extra 100mm make any difference for pics at a distance?

[Riverlander]

Tony
This thread of mine shows some bird shots. You can see the ones taken at f/6.3 are not as sharp as they could be but the f/8 ones are very good.
http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=65762

I still have not done any focus micro-adjustment, but will look into it when we get a really nice day.

[Tonym]

Tony
This thread of mine shows some bird shots. You can see the ones taken at f/6.3 are not as sharp as they could be but the f/8 ones are very good.
http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=65762

I still have not done any focus micro-adjustment, but will look into it when we get a really nice day.

Wow there are some great shots there. I was a bit puzzeled by the bit soft comments but after looking at them I can see the slight difference between the f/6.3 and f/8. I keep thinking the extra 100mm of the Sigma is a definate plus and will sway me towards one.

[Shelley]

I had the 50-500 - a brilliant lens in the right hands. Focus is slower than my current lens. But, for me it was hard to get sharp shots hand held as I wanted the option of hand-held. It got heavy for me and did affect my photo-taking after a while, I am not very big and my hubby reckons I am a wimp. So, I bought the 400 5.6L and haven't looked back. It has beautiful bokeh and the zoom is handy (50-500 sigma that is).

I dropped the reach and also went to prime - but it has not bothered me at all as I like to move around and get closer. Purely used for birding.

[Analog6]

And one of our site sponsors, NG systems will give you a great price on the 100-400, I bought mine from him

[ving]

i have the sigma 150-500 OS. not a bad lens at all. it wont beat the 100-400 L for sharpness, but the reach is good and it does everything i need. I believe it focuses at f5 rather than F6.3. I think it was kym who said that the aperture in new lenses doesnt change as you zoom and focus, but closes to 6.3 when the shot is taken... or something.

anyhow i have stacks of shots on this forum you can look at :)

[pauldshearer]

I am leaning towards the Sigma lens rather than the Canon

[Speedway]

I have the 150-500 Sigma and have had no problems with auto focus I usually use it in AP mode set to F8 for birding and wildlife. Although the canon is the better quality lens if you can afford the extra I am quite satisified with the sigma.
Keith.

[Tannin]

I was a bit puzzeled by the bit soft comments but after looking at them I can see the slight difference between the f/6.3 and f/8.

Tony, if you can really see the difference in sharpness between two shots from the same lens at f6.3 and f/8, then there is no way you should consider the Sigma over the Canon - and indeed no way that you should consider anything except an L class prime (or the equivalent Nikon).

But that's not what's going on in the shots that you have looked at. What you are seeing is either:

(a) the extra depth of field which has (i) more of the subject in sharp focus and (ii) is more forgiving of a slight mis-focus, or:

(b) the better lighting conditions for the f/8 shot. No-one (well, hardly anyone) shoots at the long end of a high-ratio zoom lens wide open as routine. In fact, you generally don't use the widest aperture of any lens as routine unless the lens is an absolute diamond-crusted beauty (such as the very best Canon super-tele primes like the 600/4). These are around $10,000 each.

Most experienced photographers will stop down a fraction if they have enough light to do so, both for increased depth of field, and for slightly better sharpness - though that second reason is arguable with good quality glass.

What this means for your f/8 to f/6.7 comparison shots is that that f/8 shots were most likely taken in good lighting conditions, where the f/5.6 and f/6.7 shots were taken when the light was marginal (otherwise the photographer would have stopped down a bit). Not every single time, but most of the time this will be so.

In reality, you are almost certain to find the Canon slightly sharper. But don't stress out about that. It is a very, very good photographer who can find the limits of either of those two fine lenses.

Me, I'd pick the Canon. It has traditionally been sharper than the various Sigmas, though this latest model may well have caught up, and in any case the difference will be small. However the Sigma weight nearly 2kg - that is a lot heavier than the Canon (1380g) and you will not be able to hold it as steady for as long.

Second reason is focus. Auto-focus mechanisms on any brand of camera need the as much "leverage" as they can get. SLR AF systems calculate the correct focus distance by comparing the view through the "outside" of the lens to the view through the "centre" of the lens.

(That's not quite true, but it's a nice simple way to think about it which will still give us a good practical understanding, and the correct explanation gets pretty arcane and technical. I think I wrote it up in detail somewhere here once upon a time.)

Anyway, the take-home message is that the wider the maximum aperture, the better the focus system works. Nothing to do with Canon or Pentax bodies, nothing to do with Sigma or Nikkor lenses, just the basic physics of phase-detect auto-focus. (Contrast detect AF, as used on cheap P&S cameras, doesn't need or use this "leverage" - but contrast detect AF is very s-l-o-w and probably not as accurate.)

I get a graphic illustration of this every time I add or remove the 1.4 converter from my 500/4/ Bare lens, it focuses faster than you can blink. It is amazing! With a 1.4 converter it becomes a 700mm f5.6 lens, and it takes a lot longer - say around about the same as a 400/4.6 or a 100-400. And pop on a 2X converter and it won't focus at all on a consumer body, only on a pro-level body with a pro-level AF system. Even so, it is very slow indeed.


I believe it focuses at f5 rather than F6.3. I think it was kym who said that the aperture in new lenses doesnt change as you zoom and focus, but closes to 6.3 when the shot is taken... or something.

Definitely "or something".

There are lenses which can actually meter and focus at f/5. In fact, there is a special term for this sort of lens. It is called "an f/5 lens".

If it was possible to meter at f/5, it would be equally possible to shoot at f/5. What Mr Not-Kym (Mr Not-Kym 'cause I don't reckon Mr Kym would have got this one wrong) was presumably thinking of is modern focusing and metering where the shooting aperture is smaller than the maximum aperture. If, for example, you are shooting at f/11 with a 24-105/4 lens, what you see through the viewfinder is the f/4 view; what the camera meters with is the f/4 view (it does the sums from there to work out what exposure is required at f/11); and what the focus system focuses with is the f/4 view. The camera is smart enough to leave the lens wide open all the time except for the last moment before the shutter fires (which you can't see anyway because the mirror has already flipped). The only time you ever see the stopped-down view is when you press the DOF preview button.

This applies to the Sigma the same as it applies to every other lens ever made. (Er ... sorry ... before about 1970 cameras and lenses were fully manual. You had to do everything, including manually turning the aperture ring to dial up f/11 or whatever you wanted.) I'll try again ....

This applies to the Sigma the same as it applies to every other lens made since about 1970. Regardless of the aperture you are going to shoot at, the cameras focuses at the maximum aperture available to it with the lens and focal length selected. In the case of the Sigma, that's f/6.3. You get f/6.3 "leverage" which is a bit less than f/5.6 "leverage" and a huge amount lefs than f/4 or f/2.8 "leverage". (They don't call fast lenses "fast" for nothing!)

So:

Pro Sigma: 100mm longer.
Pro Canon: faster, better focus, much lighter, possibly better quality.

I have no doubt that the Sigma is a fine lens, and wouldn't be upset to see you buy one. My leaning, as I said, is to the Canon, but only by a small margin. They are both good choices.

Enjoy!

[jim]

I'd be careful. I've heard that the 100-400 is soft.

[Pine]

I'm biased, so I naturally favour the 100-400mm Canon. :p :D

Here's a few recent images I've posted taken with this lens.

Red-capped Robin (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=60475)

Weebill (Australia's smallest bird) (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=60849)

Baillon's Crake (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=63411)

Superb Fairy-wren (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=64574)

I like your shots in particulary the Baillons' Crake! :o

Regards

[Bennymiata]

You really should go to a camera shop and try both of these lenses on your camera, and hold them up to your eye for a few minutes each and take some snaps to look at when you get home.

While on paper, 700 grams difference in weight may not seem much, after holding them up for a few minutes, or walking around with them on all day, you WILL feel the difference.

One thing I've found with birding is that you are not always at full zoom, as you need the lower end of the zoom to find your subject, then you want to zoom in quickly to get the shots.
The Sigma takes a lot longer to zoom in using the twisting ring than the Canon does by using the push-pull system.
I wasn't so sure about the push-pull system of the Canon until I bought one and now I think it's a great way to zoom.
If you also need to tweak the focus, on the Canon, you don't need ot move your left hand as the push-pull also works the focus by twisting, whereas on the Sigma, you have to move your hand and find the focus ring.

If you find you don't like it, the Canon has by far the better re-sale value too.

[dulvariprestige]

I agree with benny with the push-pull zoom, takes a little to get used to, but once you do, it feels really natural, plus when you're hand holding you're supporting at the front of the lens, which I think gives you much better stability.

I do miss this lens.

[neil70]

i use the 100-400 for sport (motox and aussie rules). i feel that it is a grate lens. the push pull zoom feels more natural when following or paning than a twist zoom

[ram63]

For what it is worth I have the Sigma 50-500 and I have taken some lovely shots with it (in my humble opinion) it does hunt a little in poor contrast conditions, but I am sure that most lenses will do that from time to time.
I use it on a Manfroto mono pod with my Pentax K10d and usually sit in quiet observation so the weight is not normally noticeable, but watch out if you point the lens down it will fully extend if you have not locked it.
I have also used it hand held with the carry handle as a balance point with some good results.
I am only new to photography but I do love my "BIGMA"
Good luck with whatever lens you choose it is great to be able to reach out to your subject and also very handy to bring your lens back to capture something happening right under your nose :)

[peterb666]

One thing that puzzles me about this thread is why are people comparing a 4x zoom to a 10x zoom?

[ving]

Definitely "or something".

There are lenses which can actually meter and focus at f/5. In fact, there is a special term for this sort of lens. It is called "an f/5 lens".

If it was possible to meter at f/5, it would be equally possible to shoot at f/5. What Mr Not-Kym (Mr Not-Kym 'cause I don't reckon Mr Kym would have got this one wrong) was presumably thinking of is modern focusing and metering where the shooting aperture is smaller than the maximum aperture. If, for example, you are shooting at f/11 with a 24-105/4 lens, what you see through the viewfinder is the f/4 view; what the camera meters with is the f/4 view (it does the sums from there to work out what exposure is required at f/11); and what the focus system focuses with is the f/4 view. The camera is smart enough to leave the lens wide open all the time except for the last moment before the shutter fires (which you can't see anyway because the mirror has already flipped). The only time you ever see the stopped-down view is when you press the DOF preview button.

This applies to the Sigma the same as it applies to every other lens ever made. (Er ... sorry ... before about 1970 cameras and lenses were fully manual. You had to do everything, including manually turning the aperture ring to dial up f/11 or whatever you wanted.) I'll try again ....

This applies to the Sigma the same as it applies to every other lens made since about 1970. Regardless of the aperture you are going to shoot at, the cameras focuses at the maximum aperture available to it with the lens and focal length selected. In the case of the Sigma, that's f/6.3. You get f/6.3 "leverage" which is a bit less than f/5.6 "leverage" and a huge amount lefs than f/4 or f/2.8 "leverage". (They don't call fast lenses "fast" for nothing!)

So:

Pro Sigma: 100mm longer.
Pro Canon: faster, better focus, much lighter, possibly better quality.

I have no doubt that the Sigma is a fine lens, and wouldn't be upset to see you buy one. My leaning, as I said, is to the Canon, but only by a small margin. They are both good choices.

Enjoy!ahh! i see. thanks for the explanation.... :th3:

so if a camera cant focus at any higher that f5.6 then the sigma lens wont focus at 500mm (or whenever the siggy goes above 5.6)?

just as well i got a nikon, it focuses at f6.3 :D


...or am i even more confused now :confused013

[Riverlander]

...or am i even more confused now :confused013

Well, if you are not confused David, I am.
My new Sigma 50-500 focuses at 500 mm very quickly and accurately! I love it.

[peterb666]

So:

Pro Sigma: 100mm longer.
Pro Canon: faster, better focus, much lighter, possibly better quality.



Both are fine lenses. I have the Sigma 150-500mm zoom and it has no problem focussing on a Nikon body so maybe there is an issue with the Canon AF system. I don't know. Certainly Nikon don't have a restriction of f/5.6 for focussing (well except in the old split prism MF days when the split prism would black out - just like Canon).

The pros and cons list could have done with a little more research.

Pro for the Sigma 50-500mm zoom:
* - 100% wider and the short end. That is quite significant.
* - 20% longer at the long end. While noticeable and worthwhile, it isn't a huge plus.
* - closer focussing distance although that may not be that relevant to most.
* - It costs $800 less than the Canon (typical street prices)

I would hope the Canon would be a better lens as you only get a 4x zoom compared to a 10x zoom, it doesn’t focus as closely and it costs 50% more so it should be a better product within its design limitations. There would be serious issues at Canon if that were not the case. How much better it is in the field is doubtful at the difference in aperture is only around 1/3rd a stop.

According to LenTip whose reviews are quite detailed (although the English translation is sometimes odd), both lenses focus quickly and accurately. In fact very accurately with the Canon missing only around 2% and the Sigma 3%. Both excellent figures and while the Sigma is a whole 1% worse, don't forget the longer focal length range, closer focussing and slower aperture.

Canon 100-400mm review (http://www.lenstip.com/217.1-Lens_review-Canon_EF_100-400_mm_f_4.5-5.6_L_IS_USM_Introduction.html)

Sigma 50-500mm review (http://www.lenstip.com/244.1-Lens_review-Sigma_50-500_mm_f_4.5-6.3_APO_DG_OS_HSM_Introduction.html)

Check out the lens resolution tests in the above reviews. There is no doubt that the Canon is sharper at f/5.6 at the long end but the Sigma is the same or better at f/8 and smaller apertures depending on the focal length (although both are quite close). If you need depth of field at the longer focal lengths, the Sigma is a good choice. What is also interesting is how good the resolution for the Sigma at the 50mm end. On the other hand, if you shoot wide open, then the advantage is with the Canon.

Now that the crap is out of the way, just go out and buy the best lens for your type of photography and within your budget and stop wasting your time procrastinating.

[Pinarelloman]

I have the Canon 100-400 and it is brilliant.
I cannot comment personally on the Sigma, but a guy at work has one and is not totally happy with it.

[mongo]

There is no doubt that the canon has excellent IQ – difficult to beat and amongst the best in this class of lens. The sigma is not quite up to the canon but sometimes - only just, and other times, in the right hands and conditions it may match the canon.

Mrs Mongo has the latest 50-500 sigma for her Pentax K5 and she gets incredibly sharp results from it. Ironically, she chooses to focus manually despite its AF but this is not because of any problem with the AF (which is very quick and accurate) , its just a preference of hers that is now a habit.

[Tannin]

I have the Sigma 150-500mm zoom and it has no problem focussing on a Nikon body so maybe there is an issue with the Canon AF system. I don't know.

I already explained all that. Maybe I was unclear. Let's try it again.

There is NO DIFFERENCE between brands in the way that autofocus systems respond to max aperture. Zip. Nil. Nada. None.

They all work on the same theory. They all degrade when you present them with a smaller max-aperture lens. Canon prefer to switch off the AF when the performance is likely to be marginal, Nikon prefer to do nothing and hope for the best, but both can be user-overridden if desired.

There MAY be a difference between different models as regards ability to cope with slow lenses, but we have not established that here in this thread, or indeed anywhere that I know of, and I am not aware of any consistent difference between camera brands as opposed to individual camera models.

I seem to recall, for example, that the 40D was marginally more able to cope with an f/8 lens/TC combination than the 20D. (Or possibly it was the other way around.) Be that as it may, the only significant variation seems to be with price and AF system quality. The Canon 1 Series cameras do it better than the XXD or XXXD bodies. (Just as they do nearly everything else better.) In the same way, I would expect a D3 or a D300 to do better than a D40X. Even so, the differences are quite small.


Certainly Nikon don't have a restriction of f/5.6 for focussing (well except in the old split prism MF days when the split prism would black out - just like Canon).

Nikon has EXACTLY THE SAME restriction as Canon. And Pentax. And Olympus. And any other camera that uses a phase detection focus system. Indeed, you have seen this for yourself when watching a split prism black out - for that too is based on the same fundamental working method.

The AF system in your Nikon (exactly the same as the AF system in any other SLR) is staring at a blacker and blacker split prism as you put on slower lenses. It gets slower to focus and hunts more and makes more mistakes. Saying "my Brand Z focuses at f/x.x" doesn't really tell us much at all. I would expect any brand of camera to focus, more or less, most of the time with an f/6.3 lens - but it won't do it as fast and as well as it does with an f/5.6 lens.

The performance degradation is progressive: each half stop is just a little bit worse than the one before. Where do you draw the line and say "this doesn't AF"? Matter of judgment as much as anything else. And also of luck - I have regularly heard quite different reports from people owning the exact same cameras and lenses.

(Usually these are bird people trying to get a bit more reach out of kit that doesn't quite have what it takes - bird photographers, especially beginning bird photographers, are always trying to get more reach than they can afford, and usually wind up going a bridge too far before they back off a bit and start working within the limitations of their equipment instead of crossing them and having a struggle.)

What would be relevant is comparison of focus speed and accuracy between different makes of camera using the same lens. (Though even this could be a bit hit and miss, as none of the camera manufacturers trouble to test and tune their products with 3rd party lenses.)