View Full Version : Professionalism.
I am amazed at the number of people who buy a camera,take some photographs, add photography after their name a think they are a photographer. It is owed to anyone using your services that you have some knowledge of the workings of a camera & related matter & you owe it to yourself to have some basic business acumen and legal knowledge relating to contract & photography laws.
I have come across so called photographers who do not ask for permission to take an obviously "private" photo. Neither have they known or bothered to find out about the legality of shooting at a park, event or zoo etc..
I also cringe when I see " I've got a wedding what sort of lens do I buy?" or "Do I need a back up camera for weddings?" If you are touting yourself as a professional be one.
If you are serious about calling yourself a photographer register as a business, take some courses & pay some taxes (or not as the case may be) the same as the rest of the profession. It does have benefits.
You must register for GST if:
1. You are carrying on an enterprise
2. You're annual turnover will exceed $75,000
Whether you register or not depends on advice from an accountant.
I am amazed at the number of people who buy a camera,take some photographs, add photography after their name a think they are a photographer.
I am amazed at the number of people who buy a lawn mower, cut some grass, add gardening after their name a think they are a horticulturist.
Sorry, I am off on a rather cynical tack this morning but your scenario (and mine) are all too prevalent in many many areas of society today.
ricktas
29-07-2010, 8:46am
I see professionalism as much more (but including), having the gear, having done the courses, etc. Professionalism is a mind set and attitude as well.
One can be a professional with exemplary history in a field, but that does not make them a professional in another field, either.
I agree with I @ M, seems we are getting more and more of these in recent years, in most 'professions'.
First, lets separate Photographer from Professional.
See: http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=56194
Some definitions:
Pho·tog·ra·pher n. One who practices, or is skilled in, photography.
(Business / Professions) a person who takes photographs, either as a hobby or a profession
Secondly, consider that many amateur/hobbyists/enthusiasts are very skilled and often out do 'professionals'.
As for business skills, I agree that many professionals (in photography or other areas of endeavour)
don't have very good skills or have not implemented a sound business plan (marketing, GST, finance & accounts, insurance etc).
That said, there are a bunch of weekend warriors who do a great job at both photography and business;
also many some who don't ;) Welcome to planet Earth, its life.
In the end, its always caveat emptor. If you engage a professional to do work, check them out first.
First, lets separate Photographer from Professional.
See: http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=56194
Secondly, consider that many amateur/hobbyists/enthusiasts are very skilled and often out do 'professionals'.
As for business skills, I agree that many professionals (in photography or other areas of endeavour)
don't have very good skills or have not implemented a sound business plan (marketing, GST, finance & accounts, insurance etc).
That said, there are a bunch of weekend warriors who do a great job at both photography and business;
also many who don't ;) Welcome to planet Earth, its life.
In the end, its always caveat emptor. If you engage a professional to do work, check them out first.
i think that you could replace the word "many" with "some"
There are a minority of those that are weekend warriors that are anywhere near as consistently good as ft pros
The thing that is grey is at what point you are a professional, are in business etc
as per the dictionary definition a photographer is someone who takes photos....
my personal thought on the matter of amateurs and business is that if professional are feeling threatened by the constant influx of amateurs muscling in on thier territory then maybe the pros need to lift there game.
digital photography has opened floodgates to allow anyone to create good looking photos and the potential is there for just about anyone to make money from thier camera.
maybe the pros need to offer something that the amateurs cant?
photography is like any product, you can pay for a top quality euro product or a made in taiwan that will do the same. its a war out there.
Xebadir
29-07-2010, 10:25am
Its clear this is true in many fields. Take climate science for instance.
The only people who are truly professionals are those who have worked in the field from a scientific background.
Currently we have economists, historians, sustainability experts, politicians, radical greenies, environmentalists, sceptics from other fields and just about anyone who wants a research dollar trying to claim they are climate scientists or that climate actually means anything in their otherwise irrelevant field.
This annoys the hell out of me, because the majority of these individuals have no idea about the science of which they speak, and either trivialise or sensationalise what they do say...or deny it because they fail to understand it.
I suppose this makes a similar case to photography, where people who don't understand it, and can't offer that professional side are trying to claim this in order to make something from it. Needless to say this is one of several threads I have seen going down this path, and one point I strongly disagree with is the courses for photography...would you rather someone who has taken some tick box course, or someone who has learnt their camera inside out taking pictures every day for their own benefit in order to effect their abilities. If you are referring to business courses and how to go about it then I am more for this as I think the success of a business is difficult to achieve from a start without prior knowledge.
I can think of a no-longer friend of mine who called himself a photographer and had training, maintaining his "business" for 38 years...but when I actually saw him take pictures in person I was utterly bemused that he had no concept of settings, composition or how to deal with unusual situations. On technical review of his photos I was surprised he had made anything at all from his photos. Some people have it, some don't. Many of the pro's do have it...but not all....some amateurs/weekend warriors have it...others don't.
A drive in business with reasonable to good photos is just as important as exceptional photos but poor business skills. The same can be said for professionalism (that is acting in a professional manner or manner befitting a professional)...if you act professional in the way you take photographs (IE understanding the business client relationship, model releases, marketing/advertising) and produce a product which satisfies the client then I dont see a problem with you claiming to offer a professional service. This does not mean you are a professional photographer necessarily, but can be offering a professional service in photography. A weird sort of nuance but different meanings.
Jorge Arguello
29-07-2010, 10:43am
I guess that his thread is started because there is a feeling that “possible customers” are choosing the services of a cheaper none-professional of the area. At the end, the quality of the work will speak by itself. I think that customers choose the quality and price of a service according to the quality that they are expecting (and their budget).
For a simple BBQ in a park, How much would you spend for some pictures there? You can have this kind of events often. Maybe photography lovers (with the budget) will ask professional service for each of them.
If you spend a huge amount of money on one time event (like weeding), Who do choose to do the job? Someone who makes you feel will do good job. (cooking, drinks, photos or any other area).
At the end, the professionals are doing a job they like, and (in most of the cases) they are getting paid for.
p.s. I like the last line comment from Ving.
I constantly sit and scratch my head over the sheer number of 'professional photographers' there are in the world today.
Where did they all come from?
How did they become professional?
Did they all go to the same school / college / university to be able to hang the word professional upon themselves?
Those questions (and more) led me to research this phenomenon of seemingly unhindered growth of 'professionals' and it appears that it is all an illusion.
It seems that anyone can hang that tag upon themselves without formal training, without any kind of educational degree or without any legislative requirements behind said tag.
That is about the point where I decided that there must be a vast number of photographers out there who wish to appear better than other photographers or to gain a marketing edge through a few letters.
By now it must be apparent to anyone that has bothered to read this far that I have a bit of a negative thing going with the term 'professional photographer'.
The term can be purely applied by anyone to themselves as either ego padding or marketing spin.
It really is a worthless tag.
Hanging the tag 'professional' in their business name does not guarantee that the proprietor of the business will conduct their business in a 'professional' manner, like wise, not having 'that' word in the name in no way says that the proprietor of said business won't deliver a 'professional' package in their dealings with you.
How did they become professional?
My take:
1. Academic qualifications? No.
2. Membership to some professional body? No.
3. Deriving regular income from their work in some form of business (part or full time)? Yes.
But just saying your a professional, even if 3. is true does not really make you one,
as alluded to earlier there is a standard of work/skills required as well.
In the end tagging yourself as a professional is a marketing ploy as much as anything else.
Maybe I should call myself a New Improved Super Green Professional Photographer?
How about a sales tag: Kym's images only use 100% pure re-cycled electrons!
:Doh:
Sorry Kym, I simply do not agree with you about deriving all of or any income from your photography in order to call yourself professional.
YOU can simply hang that tag in front of or behind YOUR name and never earn a single dollar from photography and seemingly people accept that because you say you are a 'professional' photographer, you are.
In exactly the same way, someone can make their entire living from photography and not have that word associated with them.
It is a word that is all to often used in a totally inappropriate and pretentious manner that means diddly squat.
I dont often see anyone labelling themselves a professional photographer, or not that I see (not including those who are AIPP)
Plenty out there with business names and "darren white photographer" websites and cards etc.
Doesn't mean you're "professional" or necessarily in business
I think if you want to be serious, yes, you should have the skill, equipment, business structure, insurance etc etc etc in place before you can purport to be a professional photographer (I personally think that there is a place for a hobbyist who collects $75 every so often for taking photos of the neighbours kids too without having a business structure)
Personally, I think as soon as you start charging for "work" on a regular basis (as distinct from the example above) then yes, you are a "professional" photographer and are accountable accordingly - but there are no industry regulations, codes of practice, statutory requirements (outside of general business and tax rules)
There are shoddy, unprofessional operators in almost every industry, not just photography. 'Buyer beware' is a good motto to live by.
Ethony
29-07-2010, 11:54am
photography is like any product, you can pay for a top quality euro product or a made in taiwan that will do the same. its a war out there.
I agree with this.
The great thing about Photography is that people can offer different things, a different style or approach.
There are people who lack professionalism and common sense or manners in every industry and indeed everyday life.
Do I call myself a photographer, yeah sure. Do I call myself a professional photographer, no.
I think for me it is also about what the end result is. If you want to sell your work, make a living shooting weddings or sport then I think that it is a good idea to register a business, complete some courses and take the time to learn your craft but if you are doing it simply for the love of the art format then it is a little different.
Sorry Darren, simply using your analogy of charging money for you services then means that --
I cut peoples grass for a living, therefore I am a professional lawn care consultant.
I was peoples cars for a living, therefore I am a professional automotive cleanser.
I sell washing machines at the local white goods store for a living, therefore I am a professional sales consultant.
There is one common theme amongst all of that, those vocations aren't recognised trades, subject to educational qualification or mandatory university degrees etc.
The word professional is pure spin.
Sorry Kym, I simply do not agree with you about deriving all of or any income from your photography in order to call yourself professional.
YOU can simply hang that tag in front of or behind YOUR name and never earn a single dollar from photography and seemingly people accept that because you say you are a 'professional' photographer, you are.
<snip>
Sure someone can call themselves anything. And you're correct it means zilch.
But I'm saying that professional has a common meaning related to income from a field of endeavour.
I'm an IT professional, not that I'd put that on my business card :rolleyes: , actually a Project Manager / Systems Architect.
Conversely Tony would not say he is a professional lawyer as a lawyer is implicitly a profession due to training and accreditation reasons (the Bar etc).
Ditto Doctor etc. But a Doctor works in the medical profession.
But, IT and Photography have no formal accreditation requirements and the term is much looser.
______________________________
pro·fes·sion·al professional
–adjective
1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain: a professional builder.
2. of, pertaining to, or connected with a profession: professional studies.
3. appropriate to a profession: professional objectivity.
4. engaged in one of the learned professions: A lawyer is a professional person.
5. following as a business an occupation ordinarily engaged in as a pastime: a professional golfer.
6. making a business or constant practice of something not properly to be regarded as a business: “A salesman,” he said, “is a professional optimist.”
7. undertaken or engaged in as a means of livelihood or for gain: professional baseball.
8. of or for a professional person or his or her place of business or work: a professional apartment; professional equipment.
9. done by a professional; expert: professional car repairs.
and another one...
professional -adjective
• related to work that needs special training or education
Chris, you're a nurse, so can I ask your professional opinion on bandaging ankles?
Both doctors have been charged with professional misconduct (= bad or unacceptable behaviour in their work).
Compare: amateur
• approving having the qualities that you connect with trained and skilled people, such as effectiveness, skill, organisation and seriousness of manner
It would look more professional if the letter was typed.
She always looks very professional in her smart suits.
You've done a very professional job stripping that floor!
• describes someone who does a job that people usually do as a hobby
She's a professional dancer/photographer.
He's a runner who's just turned professional. (= His running used to be a hobby, but now it is his job.)
• having the type of job that is respected because it involves a high level of education and training
Room for rent in shared house - would suit professional person.
a bar full of young professional types in suits
Maybe I'm moving in the wrong circles, but like Darren, I rarely hear people refer to themselves as 'professional' photographers. There are plenty of people who market themselves as photographers, but I don't often see the use of the word 'professional'. And it seems that the potential (mis)use of a single word is the source of frustration here? :confused013
Actions speak louder than words IMO. People who charge money for a service (not just photography) will either act professionally or they won't. It doesn't matter what words they use to describe themselves. And they'll either thrive, or run themselves out of business based on their level of professionalism (although some operators seem to last a long time when they probably shouldn't).
Commercial does not necessarily equate to professional, IMO.
But then a profession has never been easy to define.
Let your pictures do the talking; thats what i say.
I had a interesting experience recently were i was barred from the Orange Show entries because "i wasn't an amateur" and then by default they said i was a professional. To some there was no "in between" you are one or the other.
My opinion was/ is that currently I am currently " a part time working photographer"
This is how one local Orange NSW professional photographer see's the wedding photography business
http://renaissance.com.au/the-4-types-of-wedding-photographers/
Cheers
farmer_rob
29-07-2010, 1:22pm
I really don't see what the problem is here. Photography is hardly a life & death matter - so there are a few shonky operators out there. There are a few shonky doctors and lawyers around in spite of the "professionalism" of their areas of work, it is just that society deems it better to police these professions because of the damage they can cause.
I'll only get excited about the "professionalism" of photographers when AIPP pushes its standards and starts to name and shame those who fail to live up to it's ethical standards. In the meantime, the arguable industry bodies in photography serve their own interests and are hardly known outside photography circles.
Have you had a bad experience, or experiences, recently Tony B? I find your post to be very general and in fact quite disparaging.
I guess I'm screwed on both counts because my screen name is 'goodall photography' (maybe I should just change it to PaulG) as in my spare time I like to take pictures, and while still a hobby for me as I don't get the time to devote to it, I classify myself as a keen amateur who is working toward improving my craft and I will take paid work where I can but I will not take jobs that I know are beyond my scope at this point in time. You can be professional by your actions if you are not indeed professional by way of 3 to 4 years of higher learning (of which I have also done in other fields).
Oh yeah, the second part where I'm screwed (Andrew ;) ) is that I'm also currently working as a gardener. I won't call myself a professional horticulturist as I did not finish my two years of study at TAFE for that one to be enshrined on a paper degree.
dche5390
29-07-2010, 1:40pm
I'm amazed at how photographers in particular, continue to whinge on this subject.
bigdazzler
29-07-2010, 1:52pm
Have you had a bad experience, or experiences, recently Tony B? I find your post to be very general and in fact quite disparaging.
I guess I'm screwed on both counts because my screen name is 'goodall photography' (maybe I should just change it to PaulG) as in my spare time I like to take pictures, and while still a hobby for me as I don't get the time to devote to it, I classify myself as a keen amateur who is working toward improving my craft and I will take paid work where I can but I will not take jobs that I know are beyond my scope at this point in time. You can be professional by your actions if you are not indeed professional by way of 3 to 4 years of higher learning (of which I have also done in other fields).
I think the OP is a rant for rants sake to be honest. Thats life. Deal, and move on ... Were all very aware of the state of play in this industry. Its been flogged to death.
The rest of your post is BANG ON mate. I have exactly the same outlook, and im making a few bucks to cover the cost of my toys. Im happy with that :)
The bit about "acting professionally" in incredibly important to me also with the people that choose to pay me for my work. (I guess that why most of my photography pocket money comes from word of mouth and referrals ::)) Its a matter of principle for me to act professionally even if im not one by definition of training, Paying GST, bla bla ...
Have you had a bad experience, or experiences, recently Tony B? I find your post to be very general and in fact quite disparaging.
I guess I'm screwed on both counts because my screen name is 'goodall photography' (maybe I should just change it to PaulG) as in my spare time I like to take pictures, and while still a hobby for me as I don't get the time to devote to it, I classify myself as a keen amateur who is working toward improving my craft and I will take paid work where I can but I will not take jobs that I know are beyond my scope at this point in time. You can be professional by your actions if you are not indeed professional by way of 3 to 4 years of higher learning (of which I have also done in other fields).
Oh yeah, the second part where I'm screwed (Andrew ;) ) is that I'm also currently working as a gardener. I won't call myself a professional horticulturist as I did not finish my two years of study at TAFE for that one to be enshrined on a paper degree.
slightly off topic, but if you are promoting/trading as goodall photography then you need to be law register yourself as a company with qld gov.:Doh:
It's just a username Darren and I don't represent myself to be anything more than a keen amateur. But I do declare in my tax return and pay gst/tax for any money I make from my hobby.
That's cool, something I didnt know about and then do for ages when I set up my website etc
ricktas
29-07-2010, 2:39pm
Most true professionals rarely refer to themselves as such. but some newbies seek out information on how to be a professional photographer. Maybe when they do, we are answering incorrectly? I reckon if someone asks a question about becoming a pro, the first response should be "what is a professional photographer, what is it that you are aiming to be"? My guess is most of the time the response will be related to making money from taking photos, and nothing at all about producing high quality photos.
I think the word professional is being bastardised to an extent, in its meaning. A profitable photographer and a professional photographer are two different things in my books. Some people are one or the other, some are both, or neither.
good point, me as an example
am I professional ? Not by AIPP definition
am I professional ? I charge for photos and have a business, so, yes by that definition
am I professional ? I like to think that I act professionally at all times
am I professional ? I think I take high quality photos, but not anywhere near as good as some
am I profitable ? hardly
bigdazzler
29-07-2010, 3:01pm
Most true professionals rarely refer to themselves as such. but some newbies seek out information on how to be a professional photographer. Maybe when they do, we are answering incorrectly? I reckon if someone asks a question about becoming a pro, the first response should be "what is a professional photographer, what is it that you are aiming to be"? My guess is most of the time the response will be related to making money from taking photos, and nothing at all about producing high quality photos.
I think the word professional is being bastardised to an extent, in its meaning. A profitable photographer and a professional photographer are two different things in my books.
not to mention a skilful and quality one .... there are a lot of people out there registered for GST, with public liability, AIPP membership etc ..... "Pros" in every sense of the definitive word. But a lot of those same pros are doing very ordinary work and acting in a way that couldnt be any more unprofessional.
It all comes down to personal morals, standards, and ethics IMO. I know a few enthusiasts that act in a more empathetic and considerate manner than a few of the pros that Ive spoken to in the search for my wedding photographer. But lets not go anywhere near the "W" word here ay .... ;)
Always find these threads interesting and a great read. Thanks.
A question always arise for me is I don't think I have seen a answer from a person that has a studied photography and is in the field working full time. I would be interested in their thoughts.
I have seen a thread with a second yr student has replied and well I was some what amused that he thought just because when he gets out in the real world with little letters behind is name made him a instant professional photographer.
How to have a $1 million as a professional Photographer ???
Start with $2 million and give it a few years......
bigdazzler
29-07-2010, 3:30pm
Im thinking of doing something like this .... At least everything will be shiny and Ill look professional:D
(Seriously though ... Nice workspace huh.)
Chase Jarvis Studio Buildout (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVPjxPGvT0w)
Always find these threads interesting and a great read. Thanks.
A question always arise for me is I don't think I have seen a answer from a person that has a studied photography and is in the field working full time. I would be interested in their thoughts.
I have seen a thread with a second yr student has replied and well I was some what amused that he thought just because when he gets out in the real world with little letters behind is name made him a instant professional photographer.
Hi, I have a Diploma in PhotoImaging and am a full time photographer.
ALL income from photography, ABN, business name, gst, the lot.
2 years fulltime study makes you much more a professional than a hobby-ist sorry. we all know the certificate, title, letters, bachelor, is just a formality but it's how it works.
I s'pose you dont believe in the title of a G.M. (Grand Master) photographer but get your work judged alongside theirs at an exhibition and see whether they have earnt their title or not;)
bigdazzler
29-07-2010, 3:44pm
Hi, I have a Diploma in PhotoImaging and am a full time photographer.
ALL income from photography, ABN, business name, gst, the lot.
2 years fulltime study makes you much more a professional than a hobby-ist sorry.
zollo can I ask where you studied ??
I was some what amused that he thought just because when he gets out in the real world with little letters behind is name made him a instant professional photographer.
There would be very few people who could hope to have any sort of instant, or recognisable success so early in their career I think even if they have studied. But these days with the proliferation of digital cameras and the www, more and more people think this way. A bit like people who are tone deaf (sorry to anyone who is) and think they can be an overnight rock/popstar by auditioning for a TV show. There are exceptions though!
Nina, having a look at your website and blog, you appear to be very accomplished at what you do, with some lovely work on display. Are you among the 'self-taught' brigade or have you studied before commencing a business?
Hi, I have a Diploma in PhotoImaging and am a full time photographer.
ALL income from photography, ABN, business name, gst, the lot.
2 years fulltime study makes you much more a professional than a hobby-ist sorry. we all know the certificate, title, letters, bachelor, is just a formality but it's how it works.
I s'pose you dont believe in the title of a G.M. (Grand Master) photographer but get your work judged alongside theirs at an exhibition and see whether they have earnt their title or not;)
On the other hand, I'd suggest that the vast majority of AIPP Award Winners and FT Pro photographers do not have Diplomas in Photography either
But good on you Zollo.
bigdazzler
29-07-2010, 3:52pm
I have seen a thread with a second yr student has replied and well I was some what amused that he thought just because when he gets out in the real world with little letters behind is name made him a instant professional photographer.
oh that guy ..... well hes gone now.
Central Institute of Technology bigdazzler. TAFE in other words
bigdazzler
29-07-2010, 3:55pm
On the other hand, I'd suggest that the vast majority of AIPP Award Winners and FT Pro photographers do not have Diplomas in Photography either
I suggested that to the aforementioned-^^^-now-gone-know-all-member once before, and his response was something like that 90% of the full time professional photographers out there working have formal training. We dont seriously believe that do we ... ?? :rolleyes:
bigdazzler
29-07-2010, 3:56pm
Central Institute of Technology bigdazzler. TAFE in other words
ok cool .... I was just wondering if it was university/TAFE or one of those colleges. Congratulations mate .. thats a great achievement :th3:
I suggested that to the aforementioned-^^^-now-gone-know-all-member once before, and his response was something like that 90% of the full time professional photographers out there working have formal training. We dont seriously believe that do we ... ?? :rolleyes:
Definitely not. But Organizations such as AIPP and AAPP are pushing very hard for photography to be formalised and regulated. I know the English equivalent organizations are quite close to doing that in England.
thanks bigdazzler and kiwi it went a looong way to help me secure my first (photography) jobs!
I suggested that to the aforementioned-^^^-now-gone-know-all-member once before, and his response was something like that 90% of the full time professional photographers out there working have formal training. We dont seriously believe that do we ... ?? :rolleyes:
Depends on the interpretation of formal training.
Im sure William is going to stumble upon this thread sooner or later
I'll take a stab in the dark though and say that if you took all the FT Professional Photographers / number of diplomas or degrees = < 5%
But, I have no data to support that, just a gut feel based on the ones that I know.
Zollo how long were you involved in photography before your period of study? Curious to know if it was something you decided to do from scratch or if it stemmed from a lifelong interest with photography? I agree with what you say though but even after studying I'm sure there would be those who have not shared your success in being able to remain at it fulltime.
For a giggle:
http://www.ici.net.au/photography-course/index.htm
Im thinking of doing something like this .... At least everything will be shiny and Ill look professional:D
(Seriously though ... Nice workspace huh.)
Chase Jarvis Studio Buildout (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVPjxPGvT0w)
Gotta say that's darn impressive! Even his toilet room looked good enough to shoot in! Bet there less then a few percent of photogs in the world who can have a set-up like that and have a large staff to boot.
Even his colleagues have impressive set-ups...
Chase Jarvis SHORTS: Pimped Photography Van (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-TzMbYSK5M&feature=channel)
Zollo how long were you involved in photography before your period of study? Curious to know if it was something you decided to do from scratch or if it stemmed from a lifelong interest with photography? I agree with what you say though but even after studying I'm sure there would be those who have not shared your success in being able to remain at it fulltime.
Hey mate total newbie to dslrs in 2008. started taking a serious interest when i picked up a sony cybershot some 3-4 years ago. Always had a film camera or two before that. I was a self employed (trade certificate holder) but had enough of that line of work and wanted to do something totally different. I guess getting a formal piece of paper came naturally because I was in a trade that needed one no questions.
mikew09
29-07-2010, 4:09pm
To be honest I fail to see what all the fuss is about. Like some other comments I can't say I see anyone with pro photographer as a title. For me, if someone does say they are professional photographer I first look at the website and make up my own mind as to the associated title. If you are good enough I would think the status will stick and all would flow from that pivotal point.
bigdazzler
29-07-2010, 4:10pm
Depends on the interpretation of formal training.
Im sure William is going to stumble upon this thread sooner or later
I hope so ... IM very interested in Williams input on this, and if in fact he has done any "classroom" type training along the way.
My interpretation of formal training, is a combination of theoretical/practical tuition undertaken in a classroom/field environment over a sustained period of time, resulting in a piece of paper at the end of it that is recognised. (by whom Im not sure in this case ??)
Working as an assistant in a full time role in a photography studio to me is not formal, but ironically probably (maybe ??) more useful to a budding photographer than anything else in the long run. Hands on experience counts for a lot I would say, particularly in an industry which is not regulated and there are no rules on who you can hire.
I think more to the point is what being a professional means to one's own situation and by others
Conversation at a bar :
What do you do Joe ?
"Im a professional photographer" or are you ?
If you are - why ? and should you be ?
For a giggle:
http://www.ici.net.au/photography-course/index.htm
lol but you get a free holiday
For a giggle:
http://www.ici.net.au/photography-course/index.htm
At least this is free (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=104). :D
But do you get a shiny certificate with a seal ?
bigdazzler
29-07-2010, 4:23pm
I think more to the point is what being a professional means to one's own situation and by others
Conversation at a bar :
What do you do Joe ?
"Im a professional photographer" or are you ?
If you are - why ? and should you be ?
So if Joe has been working in a studio as a gofer > assistant > junior photographer > senior photographer over a longish period of time and is now making his entire income from working as a photographer, despite never setting foot in a classroom, can Joe reasonably answer yes to the that question ?? I think he can, provided he has public liability of course :D
I hope so ... IM very interested in Williams input on this, and if in fact he has done any "classroom" type training along the way.
My interpretation of formal training, is a combination of theoretical/practical tuition undertaken in a classroom/field environment over a sustained period of time, resulting in a piece of paper at the end of it that is recognised. (by whom Im not sure in this case ??)
Working as an assistant in a full time role in a photography studio to me is not formal, but ironically probably (maybe ??) more useful to a budding photographer than anything else in the long run. Hands on experience counts for a lot I would say, particularly in an industry which is not regulated and there are no rules on who you can hire.
all true. the diploma goes a lot into the business side of it too along with exhibition and marketing (in real exhibitions - such as FotoFreo) and you do meet a lot of contacts and potential employers/clients. you do get a fair bit of real world experience too. It basically accelarates the learning curve quite well so you dont have to come on forums and ask which lens do i use for a wedding/will my d3000 suffice for a Mercedes Benz billboard shoot etc
bigdazzler
29-07-2010, 4:29pm
Absolutely. I feel that the 2 biggest advantages of formal training for someone wanting to become a full time working photographer as a career move, would be studying the business management side of things, and the ability to study full time and devote your full focus to the ultimate goal.
So if Joe has been working in a studio as a gofer > assistant > junior photographer > senior photographer over a longish period of time and is now making his entire income from working as a photographer, despite never setting foot in a classroom, can Joe reasonably answer yes to the that question ?? I think he can, provided he has public liability of course :D
I say yes too, whithin reason, and as many have pointed out - this is where your portfolio will come into play - but, how does one get a break for doing high end shoots in the first place - before you have a high end portfolio? Too much luck involved for me:D
I know a GM or two who dont have qualifications in photography yet their work blows me away. However they all have 20 - 30 years experience and all got their break in film photography, when it was a lot different. (apparently - wasnt around :D)
But do you get a shiny certificate with a seal ?
I disapprove of how they've used the MEAA logo to give some form of credibility to their degree when all they are doing is using it to give an indication of some possible rates of freelance pay.
As a member of the MEAA I think this tactic is a bit ordinary on the part of the people promoting this 'degree'!
ricktas
29-07-2010, 6:17pm
I say yes too, whithin reason, and as many have pointed out - this is where your portfolio will come into play - but, how does one get a break for doing high end shoots in the first place - before you have a high end portfolio? Too much luck involved for me:D
I know a GM or two who dont have qualifications in photography yet their work blows me away. However they all have 20 - 30 years experience and all got their break in film photography, when it was a lot different. (apparently - wasnt around :D)
I think that is the key. Professionalism (in any field) can be a combination of study and experience, coupled with an outlook, attitude and approach. All of this can be taught and learned, in a variety of ways, from formal study to self taught, but there are few in any career, who combine all elements to be truly professional, in all aspects of their chosen career.
I have listed to 'professional' wedding photographers in a room together, bagging out previous clients. Naming them and talking about aspects of the day, including how fat the bride was etc. This for me, is not professional, and in fact, lost 2 photographers every ounce of respect I had for them. Looking at their work now, it is tainted by their acidic tongues. I would never recommend them to anyone, and they are just wedding photographers to me now.
Hi, I have a Diploma in PhotoImaging and am a full time photographer.
ALL income from photography, ABN, business name, gst, the lot.
2 years fulltime study makes you much more a professional than a hobby-ist sorry. we all know the certificate, title, letters, bachelor, is just a formality but it's how it works.
I s'pose you dont believe in the title of a G.M. (Grand Master) photographer but get your work judged alongside theirs at an exhibition and see whether they have earnt their title or not;)
Thanks for commenting.
I have no issue with any letters behind names, it was the arrogant mind set of a second yr student that I had the issue with and this person was not on this forum.
I have no doubt that my photos would not even come anywhere close to a photographer that has earn't the GM title.
There would be very few people who could hope to have any sort of instant, or recognisable success so early in their career I think even if they have studied. But these days with the proliferation of digital cameras and the www, more and more people think this way. A bit like people who are tone deaf (sorry to anyone who is) and think they can be an overnight rock/popstar by auditioning for a TV show. There are exceptions though!
Nina, having a look at your website and blog, you appear to be very accomplished at what you do, with some lovely work on display. Are you among the 'self-taught' brigade or have you studied before commencing a business?
For the record I am a self taught photographer that probably has taken a photo every day seriously for the last 3 years. Have 4 scrapbooks books full of tutorials in editing, business advice, marketing ideas, poses, hints advice, inspirational photos,Very passionate about photography, always have been. I practice and still practice on anyone that I can find. I can't even get happy snaps of my kids anymore they have photographers child syndrome. Joined a few forums and now is a mod on one. Posted countless photos and received endless cc on my photos and always willing to learn from it. Having people make comments on your photos from all around the world with varying amount of experience you kind of build a thick skin and learn or don't even bother. Constantly reading about photography and the business aspect of photography. How to edit photos which I see that is missed on this thread. The marketing the presentation of the final product. I have just started my journey and with 20yrs experience maybe I might feel comfortable in going for a GM title. I have a mentor, would love to be mentored in the new AIPP program they are offering however noticed that it is not being offered to NT.
I am pretty realistic about my skill level and what I can offer to the client. For example only today received a call asking if I photograph weddings. First off Bridezilla's scare me. I don't want to be a wedding photographer. If I did for example I believe there is a path to be followed into that aspect of photography and it is not joining a forum and asking what lens do they need to hire for a wedding and should they get a flash. And do a couple of selective colouring in the editing. I referred the caller on to a few respected wedding photographers providing their phone numbers.
OMG very long winded I did say passionate didn't I.
If being a professional photographer means having * edited - personal attack - do it again and you will be under a ban from the site- admin *
Professional behaviour is just as important as the money earned.
Scotty72
29-07-2010, 8:09pm
Professionalism is yet another meaningless, weasel word that has crept in to the world of spin and commercialism; rather like 'healthy', 'low fat', 'scientifically tested' or 'green.' - c
I find the word professionalism is most often applied in the pejorative, when one practitioner in a field disapproves of another. "I think he is so unprofessional" tends to really mean "I don't like him and I can't think of a good, valid reason why."
Photography is obviously not one of the traditional, learned professions studied at a bachelor's degree level, where you need a licence to practice and to which one can study to achieve the top of the academic tree - a professor.
However, it is a profession in the same sense as a golfer, a footballer, cat-walk model or even a prostitute is. There is no academic requirements - all you need to be is good enough at what you do, or attractive enough that someone wants to pay you to do it.
So, I find all this. "How dare 'so and so' call themself a pro photographer?" talk a bit like the primary school kids saying, "Get out of my sand-box, I was here first."
If someone wants to pay you to take a photo, you are a professional photographer.
Scotty
Longshots
29-07-2010, 8:13pm
Definitely not. But Organizations such as AIPP and AAPP are pushing very hard for photography to be formalised and regulated. I know the English equivalent organizations are quite close to doing that in England.
thanks bigdazzler and kiwi it went a looong way to help me secure my first (photography) jobs!
Not sure where you get your information from Zollo, but I can assure you that as an Ex Board Member and Ex National Vice President of both AIPP and ACMP - (only one other person in Australia has been daft enough to do the same as me there!) - but you are unbelievably and most definitely wrong. And as a Fellow of the BIPP and RPS, I can also state that the same situation is in the UK - that they have all given up entirely with the idea of lobbying for regulating the industry. It aint going to happen.
And I'm sorry to burst your bubble, on your earlier comment; but if you are keen for a dose of reality, whilst a 2 or 4 year course may be extremely useful, it is not going to make you any more professional than someone who has never had any formal training.
Unfortunately, thats exactly the spin the education system tries to convey, but the reality is that most students who've completed a Cert 4 or Diploma in Photography rarely get given the information required to actually set up in business. As I've been on the advisory panel that produces the ever evolving Cert 4 and Diploma national courses, I know full well the huge hole in the system. So I'm afraid that you're kidding yourself if you think that by simply doing a two year Cert 4 course that you are any more a professional than a self starter who has never opened up a photographic course book.
So if I followed the logic of your comments, are you also saying that you are more of a professional than me, because I havent had any formal training ?
Hmm I dont think so. Hate to also tell you, but approx 50-60% of all the professional photographers I know (ones that have been in business succesfully for more than 10 years and are still succesful), are all self taught.
Now dont misunderstand me, I certainly think that doing a formal course can be hugely helpful. But the reality is that it really does not automatically give you any more professionalism than someone who hasnt.
bigdazzler
29-07-2010, 8:23pm
Its interesting to hear William tell us that the cert IV or diploma dont offer much in terms of photography business management skills ... I dont know exactly what they teach in the courses but I would have assumed that would have been a large part of the curriculum.
Its interesting to hear William tell us that the cert IV or diploma dont offer much in terms of photography business management skills ... I dont know exactly what they teach in the courses but I would have assumed that would have been a large part of the curriculum.
Probably in the same way that graduating with a bbus doesn't make you Donald trump
But, if as a student you get access to opportunities in the industry, that alone is a big leg up
read into it what you will (and have). and as for the pro organizations giving up, Mr Bob Litchfield, current president of AAPP WA must be telling students lies:rolleyes:. Or maybe you'd better head along to the National Convention in Fremantle in August to see for yourself how serious they are about change within photography.
bigdazzler
29-07-2010, 8:34pm
But, if as a student you get access to opportunities in the industry, that alone is a big leg up
Absolutely agree. The networking, and contacts made, would be a big positive no doubt.
Scotty72
29-07-2010, 8:36pm
Probably in the same way that graduating with a bbus doesn't make you Donald trump
But, if as a student you get access to opportunities in the industry, that alone is a big leg up
Exactly, university are not what they used to be a TAFE colleges probably were never what they used to be.
They tend to be giant degree mills where the main goal is not usually academic enquiry or skills development but the fabled piece of paper and contacts within a network.
Therefore, what 'professional' value, if any, do they really hold?
Scotty
ricktas
29-07-2010, 8:36pm
My Diploma of photography gave me a good insight into things like contracts, TFP, marketing, customer management, recruitment and retention. There was a part of each course unit that involved taking photos, but interestingly they did not really relate to the units. For example, my TFP unit, whilst full of information on contracts and how to get models to work under TFP, the photos needed were 'Australiana' ??
Did I learn a lot from my diploma, sure I did and much of it was relevant to running a business. Did it give me everything I needed to start a photography business, NO! From a business point of view my two diploma's in Business were a lot more intense and worthwhile than my photography diploma. Even the marketing aspect of my Business diploma's (one is advanced) taught me a lot more than the same unit in my photography one.
I would suggest that doing courses, you would be better off focusing on marketing and accountancy (tax and record keeping), and learning your photography by hands-on practice.
Scotty72
29-07-2010, 8:37pm
read into it what you will (and have). and as for the pro organizations giving up, Mr Bob Litchfield, current president of AAPP WA must be telling students lies:rolleyes:. Or maybe you'd better head along to the National Convention in Fremantle in August to see for yourself how serious they are about change within photography.
Or maybe just trying to drum up membership with a sort of scare-campaigne whereby students are frightened into feeling they will be trapped outside the inner-circle...
bigdazzler
29-07-2010, 8:38pm
Probably in the same way that graduating with a bbus doesn't make you Donald trump
But, if as a student you get access to opportunities in the industry, that alone is a big leg up
my point was simply that I thought there would be a large-ish fpcus on the business side of things when studying the courses .. but William has eluded to that not being the case. Thats interesting.
and who would be the photographers equivalent to big Donald anyway ?? :D Leibovittz ??? oh no shes broke now ... forgot ... oops. :o
Or maybe just trying to drum up membership with a sort of scare-campaigne whereby students are frightened into feeling they will be trapped outside the inner-circle...
oh yeah, i'm scared as heck, despite already working in the industry fulltime :lol:
bigdazzler
29-07-2010, 8:43pm
I would suggest that doing courses, you would be better off focusing on marketing and accountancy (tax and record keeping), and learning your photography by hands-on practice.
If .. and thats a big IF ... I decide to ramp it up a bit down the track, I think that would be the route I would take as well. Thats pretty common-sensical advice I reckon.
Scotty72
29-07-2010, 8:44pm
oh yeah, i'm scared as heck, despite already working in the industry fulltime :lol:
Then, obviously, you would not be the target.
However, put yourself into the shoes of a fledgeling photography student, desperately trying to find a way into the business.
Doesn't take too much to imagine how some would exploit that by trying to sell access via a membership to a 'peak organisation.'
Scotty
ricktas
29-07-2010, 8:47pm
If .. and thats a big IF ... I decide to ramp it up a bit down the track, I think that would be the route I would take as well. Thats pretty common-sensical advice I reckon.
Just don't do what I did. The Tasmanian Government offered some grants to undertake the Advanced Diploma. I applied and got one. This was a full-time 2 year course, but the grant ($16K) meant I had to complete it within the financial year. I did it, and worked full-time as well. Basically did not have a life for 12 months. Was it worth it, hell yeah, would I do it that way again..No Way!:D At least the grant meant the course cost me personally about $1K as it covered all the fees.
bigdazzler
29-07-2010, 8:47pm
Then, obviously, you would not be the target.
However, put yourself into the shoes of a fledgeling photography student, desperately trying to find a way into the business.
Doesn't take too much to imagine how some would exploit that by trying to sell access via a membership to a 'peak organisation.'
Scotty
same tactics, and promotional strategies, employed by some of those fly-by-night colleges out there I would imagine.
Then, obviously, you would not be the target.
However, put yourself into the shoes of a fledgeling photography student, desperately trying to find a way into the business.
Doesn't take too much to imagine how some would exploit that by trying to sell access via a membership to a 'peak organisation.'
Scotty
well the AAPP is made up of "professional" or "fulltime working" photographers. you cannot just buy a membership and call yourself a member. so that takes care of the fledgling students scenario. second you must present regularly your portfolio with new work to stay a member, to make sure your work is improving and not going downhill. otherwise you will become an ex-member. that takes care of fakes. its much better organised than you have imagined. in fact i'm sort of glad some of the cynics around here are not the president. you would learn nothing lol
Scotty72
29-07-2010, 9:00pm
well the AAPP is made up of "professional" or "fulltime working" photographers. you cannot just buy a membership and call yourself a member. so that takes care of the fledgling students scenario. second you must present regularly your portfolio with new work to stay a member, to make sure your work is improving and not going downhill. otherwise you will become an ex-member. that takes care of fakes. its much better organised than you have imagined. in fact i'm sort of glad some of the cynics around here are not the president. you would learn nothing lol
Well, if the AAPP want to have the industry regulated, and served by a 'peak, representative body', can I assume the AAPP would decline to be that body? I doubt it.
Membership could well become complusory... fees would be set and soar... the BIG winners? the AAPP.
So, the AAPP could well have a big financial reason to push for this to happen ... little to do with so-called professionalism - more to do with a cornering of the market...
Scotty
Well, if the AAPP want to have the industry regulated, and served by a 'peak, representative body', can I assume the AAPP would decline to be that body? I doubt it.
Membership could well become complusory... fees would be set and soar... the BIG winners? the AAPP.
So, the AAPP could well have a big financial reason to push for this to happen ... little to do with so-called professionalism - more to do with a cornering of the market...
Scotty
maybe scotty, maybe not. I couldn't answer for them. however everyone goes to work for money, that said. anyways, im gonna fake being pro and leave this thread alone before it turns into something its not.
p.s. I will add that AAPP and AIPP have helped me a lot in all aspects with becoming a better working photog. so for me it hasn't been one way street. cheers
ricktas
29-07-2010, 9:05pm
In Australia you do not have to be a member on any professional bodies. Dentists do not have to be part of the ADA (Australian Dental Association). Doctors for not have to be part of the AMA. I do not see photography becoming 'required' membership of a professional body, even if one body becomes the primary group.
Having a group to lobby in instances of law changes etc, is a good thing, power in numbers and all that, but I do not see the day when photographers have to be a member occuring.
Scotty72
29-07-2010, 9:07pm
From the AAPP mission statement (http://www.aapp.com.au/aboutus/aboutus.html)
Australian Accredited Professional Photography began as Portrait Maker in 1979 when a number of established Victorian Professional Photographers formed a marketing group. (my emphasis)
Kinda says it all. It seems to be the photography equivalent of the 'tick of approval' companies pay to use of their questionably healthful foods.
Scotty
I don't see why it should be a surprise that a group such as aapp is first and foremost about looking after their members' interests ?
If they do the right thing they will also therefore serve the industry that their members are in unless they are self destructive
Everything I've seen of both groups seem to suggest that they are protective and passionate of the photographic industry
There are plenty of other photographic membership organizations (eg aps) that are there for the hobbyists etc
Longshots
29-07-2010, 9:53pm
I know nothing about the AAPP Zorro.
But I've been around for a while thanks. And I'm not saying that anyone is saying any lies. Being a member of an association such as AIPP is withouth doubt beneficial.
But lets address the issue of regulating the industry, and by that I'm talking about government regulation. I'm informed and experience enough to say quite categorically that federally and in my own state of Qld, no one is pushing through any form of regulatory reform regarding the photographic industry. If it was happening I'm confident I would know. I can tell you that 15 years ago Qld Goverment were approached by a couple of AIPP members who ran a small campaign to introduce regulations within the industry. Qld Gov did their own review, and instead of the many thousands of complaints about sub standard and unscrupulous photographers, (the concept promoted by those approaching the government), after a year long review, Qld Gov released their report, and concluded that just eight complaints within the past 12 months had made there way to the Office of Fair Trading about photographers, and after that and many other issues were reviewed, it was seen that ther was simply no need to regulate the industry.
I am seriously glad that AIPP have helped you to become a better photographer, as I passionately believe that that's what its there to encourage.
As I said that I know little about AAPP, I thought I would do some research. Interesting that AAPP would appear to have very low membership:
1 member in Qld
1 member in NT
4 members in NSW
36 members in SA
17 members in WA
15 members in Vic
3 international members
77 total membership listed on their website
No offence, but with less than 77 members, it isnt going to change the world. To be honest its a pity that it fractionates the industry. If the voice was a unified voice, we, photographers wouldnt be so easy to manipulate. After 18 years of involvement in photographic lobbying on many issues, with that small membership, I'm not surprised that I'd never heard of them. So if they are lobbing for regulation, I wish them good luck, because I for one dont want yet another goverment body asking me to pay up for an annual registration fee for bugger all in return.
Small point but unless the AAPP website is out of date, Bob Litchfield is not listed as the current WA President. The current WA President is according to their website Martin Penfold.
Just because I hold a view that differs from your own Zollo, does not make me a cynic, and I object to that tag, simply because I'm offering you some insight into what has actually been happening on the constant topic of regulation, "will it happen when it will happen".
Its important not to get confused with names, letters and numbers after your name, and the topic title which was "professionalism". Sure we can all hold differing views on this. And this topic always gets nice and warm :)
I'm not sure if on some issues we may be talking at cross purposes though. AIPP have an accredited system, that is definitely not available by purchase only, and this is being developed into a system that I suppose could be looked upon as a form of self regulation. Now I'm 100% in agreement that that's a good thing. And it doesnt matter to me which organisation is doing it. Other than to have twinge of regret that all the organisations cant remove some of the individual egos to look forward to the benefits of a unified and single organisation voice. But hey this isnt about changing the photographic world, but about professionalism. So it doesnt really matter which organisation or association you belong to, all of them have a basic code of ethics and agreed moral and ethical code of behaviour, so that has to be a step towards being a better professional. On that I'm sure we'd agree.
Just going back to your comment about your course though; while you were doing your photography course, I feel that I can be confident enough to state that I doubt that the course curriculum covered how to produce a business plan ? And it wouldnt have covered even how to register a business name ? As I was teaching a Cert 4 course earlier this year, and also as already stated on the advisory panel of developing the national courses, I know full well, that these very basic points are not covered.
Now wouldnt that be great if it had included that ?
BTW Dont agree with your conclusion Scotty.
Longshots
29-07-2010, 9:57pm
I see professionalism as much more (but including), having the gear, having done the courses, etc. Professionalism is a mind set and attitude as well.
One can be a professional with exemplary history in a field, but that does not make them a professional in another field, either.
I agree with I @ M, seems we are getting more and more of these in recent years, in most 'professions'.
Sorry, but I thought I'd just quote Ricks comment again, because it relates exactly to the topic question - which I'd like to get back to, and Rick says it concisely hitting the nail on the head.
Thanks Rick
I have read this thread with interest. Nice to see a balanced response by many, especially Zollo, who is living and breathing it! And nice to see someone keep it all under control as well.
Just one question, Kiwi (I won't quote you, as it was quite a while ago), why do you think that out of all the Full time Pro's, less then 5% have formal qualifications? I am just curious (& no, I am not trying to bait. My personal opinion would be > 50%)
Yeah, well, just a guess. I've looked at plenty of pros websites, chatted to them on facebook or forums etc. I never see much mention of getting that diploma or doing this course etc
William said 50% maybe and that high would really surprise me
Redgum
29-07-2010, 10:29pm
Storm in a teacup. Who cares?
Reminds me of Henry Ford. Not an engineer. Didn't know what a car looked like. Has no mechanical aspirations. Couldn't drive. He simply surrounded himself with fifty professionals and his legend and wealth live on today. :)
As for professional bodies - just a means to make less money by sharing your knowledge with others who can't do it by themselves. From personal experience over a long time.
Knowledge is the key to success and in this case photography is only a small portion. :)
Longshots
29-07-2010, 10:35pm
I said less than 50% of my Friends Kiwi :)
I keep on saying that yes doing a course can be extremely beneficial, but it doesnt guarantee anything, certainly not a job.
And for the record I have no formal qualifications either - I do have multiple letters that have been well earnt, and none of which have been bought or purchased. Fellow of BIPP, Fellow of RPS, Master of Photography with three bars _ incorrectly called a Quadruple Master of AIPP, Master of Photography of NZIPP. So - W. Long M.Photog III, MNZIPP, FBIPP, FRPS. Does that make me any more of a professional ? No. IMHO if I dont behave "professionally", then I'm not a professional.
By the way in addition to Redgums comments, I believe that:
Ferdinand Porsche wasnt a qualified engineer
nor
Ferruccio Elio Arturo Lamborghini
Thanks Kiwi, just curious.
farmer_rob
29-07-2010, 10:54pm
In Australia you do not have to be a member on any professional bodies. Dentists do not have to be part of the ADA (Australian Dental Association). Doctors for not have to be part of the AMA. I do not see photography becoming 'required' membership of a professional body, even if one body becomes the primary group.
Having a group to lobby in instances of law changes etc, is a good thing, power in numbers and all that, but I do not see the day when photographers have to be a member occuring.
You may not have to be a member of a professional body such as the ADA or the AMA, however you are required to be registered under state law to practice dentistry or medicine. e.g. Pharmacists must be registered in Victoria with the Pharmacy Board, who have requirements for ongoing professional development (regular training to keep current) - however, you do not need to be a member of the Pharmacy Guild or the Pharmaceutical Society of Australia (the relevant professional body). But there is precedence for the professional body being the registering body - in the UK, the Royal Pharmaceutical Guild of Great Britain is both the registration body and the professional body. There are similar examples in Australia in other professions.
I cannot see an argument for any form of registration of "professional" photographers. It is up to the photography professional bodies to establish that membership of such bodies is
a) recognition of "professional" behaviour - ie conforming to the code of ethics
b) recognition of a minimum standard of performance
c) recognised by the paying customer ("the public") that membership of a body by their chosen photographer is meaningful in some way.
I think a good parallel is accountancy - look at the way the professional bodies work to establish their worth to the public (not their members), and professional membership is effectively recognised as a form of registration.
Redgum
29-07-2010, 11:02pm
I think a good parallel is accountancy - look at the way the professional bodies work to establish their worth to the public (not their members), and professional membership is effectively recognised as a form of registration.
Perhaps not a good example Rob. There are more accountants in Australian gaols than any other profession. And the tertiary course of choice for gaol inmates is accountancy/law.
interesting...
I guess after reading 3 pages time to type. A good thread.
Professionalism to me is the attitude presented by the person I'm looking to use the services of - paid or unpaid . Never really considered their qualifications or bank balance or if that's how they made their living..
Had skin cancer removed from next to my eye last year. If I left it any longer I could have lost sight in my right eye. I did not ask to see one single persons qualifications I dealt with, let alone the guy that cut me up. Just faith and trust in the people I was dealing with. And their "professional" attitude.
I guess a lot of people paying a photographer for their skills are hoping for the same - a good result.
If my surgeon cut my eye out by mistake - my problem for not doing enough research on him.
Same with employing a photographer or any one using the services of another.
Its unfortunate that this industry is going to go the way of the painter from 100 years ago,
with digital really opening up photography for everyone.
(i for one think it's great - the more photographers in the world the better - good or bad)
((less and less paid work for those not talented at their craft - the good will always have work))
If you look at it in the big picture people are still painting when most thought that art form would die..
And people will still take photos - there just may not be as many making a living from it..
Talented people will still get work if they have a "professional" attitude and that "professional" attitude will become more important than the quality of work to a certain degree, as the amount of work dries up..
Some people get too protective about what they have and not sharing what they know.
Money and Art will always get confusing.
farmer_rob
29-07-2010, 11:24pm
Perhaps not a good example Rob. There are more accountants in Australian gaols than any other profession. And the tertiary course of choice for gaol inmates is accountancy/law.
I think you caught the hidden part of my parallel there Redgum :) - but would you use an "unrecognised" accountant? (And how much of that is brainwashing by brand image of the accountancy bodies?)
"Professionalism" in photography is dependant on individual action, unless the representative bodies build a proper brand image that resonates in the minds of the customer.
Redgum
30-07-2010, 12:19am
This debate is not about "professionalism" it's about "status". Some people want to be recognised or considered good at photography. Well that's easy, do the job and if it's good enough you will get paid and recognised.
Not unlike the concreter who says he/she will lay a path for you. If they screw it up they simply don't get paid and you don't call them professional for a lot of reasons.
Why not be proud of being an amateur or hobbyist and forget all the hassles of being what you are not. At least that way you get to ask silly questions without being frowned upon. Oh! to be naive and learn so much. :)
This debate is not about "professionalism" it's about "status". Some people want to be recognised or considered good at photography. Well that's easy, do the job and if it's good enough you will get paid and recognised.
Not unlike the concreter who says he/she will lay a path for you. If they screw it up they simply don't get paid and you don't call them professional for a lot of reasons.
Everybody wants to be recognised or considered amongst their peers to be good at something. It's just human nature - the need to feel accepted or worthy :). Though there are some happy loners in the world - I have my days!
I don't know about concreters not getting paid though RG. Most I've inquired of want 50% deposit up front and then still can't do the job for a number of months and keep putting your job off!
Why not be proud of being an amateur or hobbyist and forget all the hassles of being what you are not.
At least that way you get to ask silly questions without being frowned upon. Oh! to be naive and learn so much. :)
I am.
But I want to be so much more. I always have with whatever I do.
Which is why I do ask plenty of questions! Not all silly though.
Incidentally after reading through the last four pages a few times I think I am going to change my username as it's just...too long :p.
Gotta say one of the best things I've read in this topic was Nina's description of how she went about studying (not formally) and preparing to work as a photographer. That is dedication and professionalism in my opinion. I have a similar system in place but only the beginnings of what she described so maybe there's hope for me yet.
Longshots I read what you said about photography courses and I had a look earlier tonight at what some of the TAFEs around the country offer and I can't believe the differences, and what I perceive to be 'gaps' in their offerings. I truly hope there is a National curriculum, or standard, on the way as you allude to. Queensland's TAFE website was very lacking for even the most basic info and one of the three core units that was mentioned in the Diploma was to prepare you to work in a PhotoLab :confused013.
Not sure where you get your information from Zollo, but I can assure you that as an Ex Board Member and Ex National Vice President of both AIPP and ACMP - (only one other person in Australia has been daft enough to do the same as me there!) - but you are unbelievably and most definitely wrong. And as a Fellow of the BIPP and RPS, I can also state that the same situation is in the UK - that they have all given up entirely with the idea of lobbying for regulating the industry. It aint going to happen.
And I'm sorry to burst your bubble, on your earlier comment; but if you are keen for a dose of reality, whilst a 2 or 4 year course may be extremely useful, it is not going to make you any more professional than someone who has never had any formal training.
Unfortunately, thats exactly the spin the education system tries to convey, but the reality is that most students who've completed a Cert 4 or Diploma in Photography rarely get given the information required to actually set up in business. As I've been on the advisory panel that produces the ever evolving Cert 4 and Diploma national courses, I know full well the huge hole in the system. So I'm afraid that you're kidding yourself if you think that by simply doing a two year Cert 4 course that you are any more a professional than a self starter who has never opened up a photographic course book.
So if I followed the logic of your comments, are you also saying that you are more of a professional than me, because I havent had any formal training ?
Hmm I dont think so. Hate to also tell you, but approx 50-60% of all the professional photographers I know (ones that have been in business succesfully for more than 10 years and are still succesful), are all self taught.
Now dont misunderstand me, I certainly think that doing a formal course can be hugely helpful. But the reality is that it really does not automatically give you any more professionalism than someone who hasnt.
100% agree to the above.
Now on another note, do clients even ask if you have a certificate or if you are part of some photography member (AIPP etc)??? I doubt they even care. I think the first thing they look at is your portfolio and then they ask themselves, can this photographer capture something for me that i will like. Once they select a photographer or two, they contact them, speak to them in person and get a feel of them. Then price comes into a big factor, and then availablity. I think thats pretty much it to be honest.
Perhaps noting you are credited on your website can win over the client, but i doubt you can be more professional than someone who hasnt been credited.
Offcourse there will always be a photographer or two who is not professional at all, but thats everywhere.
That's because the general public typically is ignorant of AIPP or any other professional body.
It's not as though AIPP or any other body has the marketing budget to do push advertising (TV, Radio etc)
I think it's the obligation of members to educate the public on engagement about the "profession" and why and to choose a photographer (along the same lines as what Mark posted ages ago) that suits their budget and expectation
bigdazzler
30-07-2010, 9:59am
I doubt that many of us check the credentials of many service providers we seek out for various work to be done. Just a fact of life. If your toilet breaks, you go to the Yellow Pages and find a plumber. Do you ever ask to see his trade ticket ?? I doubt anyone would answer yes.
and that's where the danger lurks, maybe the photographic industry is no worse than any other.
A veneer of flashy marketing and "professionalism" with an underbelly of incompetence and inexperience
99 replies and no response from Tony B O.P. ??
On the subject of education...
Many (most?) TAFE IT grads end up in helpdesk roles at first where as a Degree grad is likely to have a real IT job (ouch! I know that bites).
(Real as in code cutting or something similar)
This is anecdotal, but with 30+ years in the game and having interviewed applicants for many roles
in the last 20+ years, and also talking with head-hunters I'm very confident of this statement.
Bluntly: when we have employed grads, we treat them as bright people who know how to learn
and first start by undoing the crud Uni puts in their brain and teach them how it is in the real world.
Not all Uni stuff is crud, but there is a lot of dated and unrealistic theory which needs to be removed.
IBM (my former employer) have a very intense grad program which does what I said above,
although they would not say so in those words.
Other large company grad programs are similar.
I don't know why we would expect anything more from photography courses.
In the end you are your own best teacher, its your research and practical efforts that enable you to learn.
Which is why AP with its emphasis on good CC (and it can always be better) is one of the best
learning tools on the planet for photography. I think we undervalue AP's teaching ability.
Consider NTP, tutes, general discussion, comps, and the gem that is CC - AP is a real treasure!
Whos tony?
Tony B started the thread! :rolleyes:
100% agree to the above.
Now on another note, do clients even ask if you have a certificate or if you are part of some photography member (AIPP etc)??? I doubt they even care. I think the first thing they look at is your portfolio and then they ask themselves, can this photographer capture something for me that i will like. Once they select a photographer or two, they contact them, speak to them in person and get a feel of them. Then price comes into a big factor, and then availablity. I think thats pretty much it to be honest.
Perhaps noting you are credited on your website can win over the client, but i doubt you can be more professional than someone who hasnt been credited.
Offcourse there will always be a photographer or two who is not professional at all, but thats everywhere.
I do fairly regularly get asked if I have done a photography course, how I got started, how long I have been in the business.
bigdazzler
30-07-2010, 12:35pm
I think that by default a lot of people tend to think that if someone is reasonably good at something, they have done a "course" or have "training"
I too, get asked if Ive done such things, to which I always answer "nup .. everything I know I learnt from reading, the internet, and practice."
Photography is one of those vocations where you dont need to study to become good at it. It is simply your ability to learn and put into practice.
I do fairly regularly get asked if I have done a photography course, how I got started, how long I have been in the business.
I think that by default a lot of people tend to think that if someone is reasonably good at something, they have done a "course" or have "training"<snip>.
Tertiary education is a product just like anything else.
It's very much so by Govt policy (both sides) - so it tries to sell itself and make $$$$$.
Govt policy pushes training as a solution to un-employment, when in fact learning is required.
Some training can be useful if I want to learn something, but so can my own learning efforts.
Scotty and other HS teachers have to deal with some students who don't want to learn (for any number of reasons) and that is really hard work.
But, when we get to tertiary and elective courses people generally want to learn.
A lot of the courses offered and really quite average in terms of value for money.
We are however brainwashed marketed that training (as different from learning) is good for us and that we must do it via a formal course.
99 replies and no response from Tony B O.P. ??:lol2:
100% agree to the above.
Now on another note, do clients even ask if you have a certificate or if you are part of some photography member (AIPP etc)??? I doubt they even care. I think the first thing they look at is your portfolio and then they ask themselves, can this photographer capture something for me that i will like. Once they select a photographer or two, they contact them, speak to them in person and get a feel of them. Then price comes into a big factor, and then availablity. I think thats pretty much it to be honest.
Perhaps noting you are credited on your website can win over the client, but i doubt you can be more professional than someone who hasnt been credited.
Offcourse there will always be a photographer or two who is not professional at all, but thats everywhere.
just on that note - have you ever tendered for a Government project. The company I started off with did (tourism). Tenders from unqualified (no piece of paper) Photographers were disregarded. Not all photography is based on taking baby pics for private clients (not that there is anything wrong with that) Regards
go out and take some photos you lot! :p
go out and take some photos you lot! :p
ha thanks. just go back from a shoot with 304 photos to edit and sort through.
just on that note - have you ever tendered for a Government project. The company I started off with did (tourism). Tenders from unqualified (no piece of paper) Photographers were disregarded. Not all photography is based on taking baby pics for private clients (not that there is anything wrong with that) Regards
I would have thought that formal qualififications are not what is required necessarily, I would say that AIPP Membership (for example) would be more than adequate in this regard. Including other collateral such as public liability insurance certificates etc.
crystalflair
30-07-2010, 4:11pm
I guess we all like to have a rant at times hey.
I am wondering if being a professional photographer is more about peered reviewed as opposed to a commercial (in a general working context) photographer, maybe not but I often think of professional photographers as the people who are winning awards and hopefuly teaching us.
Professionalism applies to many avenues corporate, medical, educational, hospitality .......You can have trained people that are unproffesional ie unprofessional builder (house falls down as he skimped on materials) doctor (performs a second procedure during surgery without consent!).
In them old days they used to put up a shingle now we get a domain ;)
Some people are always going to tout themselves as being better than they are and others the opposite, we are just more aware of it these days with technology virtualy shrinking our world. The genral public have more means to research the shingle :D.
If you are serious about calling yourself a photographer register as a business, take some courses & pay some taxes (or not as the case may be) the same as the rest of the profession. It does have benefits.
I think of myself as a photographer, not as a profession but I still think of myself as a photographer, I take photos, along with everyone else here I am helping to preserve our history. Perhaps I will help with conservation be it of nature or manmade structures, perhaps we will help preserve a families history you get the drift.
Scotty72
30-07-2010, 4:18pm
That's because the general public typically is ignorant of AIPP or any other professional body.
It's not as though AIPP or any other body has the marketing budget to do push advertising (TV, Radio etc)
I think it's the obligation of members to educate the public on engagement about the "profession" and why and to choose a photographer (along the same lines as what Mark posted ages ago) that suits their budget and expectation
With all due respect... what a load of rubbish!
A client has no need to care about the status of the AIPP etc... who cares about the AIPP except (perhaps) its members?
If I want to engage a photographer, I want good photos - end of story.
What I do not want is some pompous person trying to convince me that he is in fact a 'professional' because of the existance of some organisation of which I have never hear and could care less if it folded tomorrow.
Scotty
Scotty72
30-07-2010, 4:30pm
Scotty and other HS teachers have to deal with some students who don't want to learn (for any number of reasons) and that is really hard work.
But, when we get to tertiary and elective courses people generally want to learn.
A lot of the courses offered and really quite average in terms of value for money.
We are however brainwashed marketed that training (as different from learning) is good for us and that we must do it via a formal course.
Exactly correct.
I have spent some (not a lot) teaching (Eng and History) at a university.
Even in these humanities subjects (it is far worse in the technical areas), so many students have the attitude that they are not here to learn but, they are there to get their piece of paper and will merely jump through the hoops.
Don't get me wrong; sometimes, this is acceptable : sometimes not.
Eg. The computer whiz who hacks into NASA computers at aged 8 who is forced to TAFE / UNI go get a formal IT qualification. Clearly, he is wasting his time and simple jumping through the hoops. I understand his frustration.
But, the student who thinks they are better than they are; they annoy me. Clearly, they need a reality check.
Happens in HS as well.
Scotty
farmer_rob
30-07-2010, 5:41pm
With all due respect... what a load of rubbish!
A client has no need to care about the status of the AIPP etc... who cares about the AIPP except (perhaps) its members?
If I want to engage a photographer, I want good photos - end of story.
What I do not want is some pompous person trying to convince me that he is in fact a 'professional' because of the existance of some organisation of which I have never hear and could care less if it folded tomorrow.
Scotty
I largely agree with you, but if the AIPP wants clients to care about the AIPP, it needs to overcome opinions such as yours (and mine) - both in approach (e.g. not pompous) and profile (e.g. advertising to the public about the "benefits" of choosing an AIPP-accredited photographer.)
ricktas
30-07-2010, 6:38pm
I think that by default a lot of people tend to think that if someone is reasonably good at something, they have done a "course" or have "training"
.
OR...Gee you take really good photos, you must have a great camera :D
OR...Gee you take really good photos, you must have a great camera :Dtrue that.:th3:
cheryl and i got aproached at some horse races, we just had out d40s with kit lenses on :p
With all due respect... what a load of rubbish!
A client has no need to care about the status of the AIPP etc... who cares about the AIPP except (perhaps) its members?
If I want to engage a photographer, I want good photos - end of story.
What I do not want is some pompous person trying to convince me that he is in fact a 'professional' because of the existance of some organisation of which I have never hear and could care less if it folded tomorrow.
Scotty
rubbish ? did you understand the point ?
why automatically assign pompous to aipp member ? talk about stereotyping
its the same as an architect justifying why he charges so much more than a draughtsman to a prospective client when they dont know better.
jasevk
30-07-2010, 10:35pm
Scotty, the AIPP has very good reason to help the public understand what professional photographers ate about, how they operate and what to expect when they engage the services of a photographer... The AIPP is committed to ensuring that pros are provided with all the resources and business tools to be able to minimize risk to the client. They are also launching a program to ensure that pros are keeping their skills up to date by attending seminars and workshops etc, which at the end of the day is nothing but beneficial to members AND peace of mind to their clients.
Therefore... I don't see what's so silly about the comments made earlier???
Scotty72
30-07-2010, 11:55pm
Scotty, the AIPP has very good reason to help the public understand what professional photographers ate about, how they operate and what to expect when they engage the services of a photographer... The AIPP is committed to ensuring that pros are provided with all the resources and business tools to be able to minimize risk to the client. They are also launching a program to ensure that pros are keeping their skills up to date by attending seminars and workshops etc, which at the end of the day is nothing but beneficial to members AND peace of mind to their clients.
Therefore... I don't see what's so silly about the comments made earlier???
The comments related more to the fact that the photographers need to promote the AIPP
to Joe Public. Joe public doesn't care! Joe public cares about examples of quality photos.
People are talking about photography as though it were brain surgery or some other highly skilled occupation on which lives, liberties or nations depend... Come on, get over it! The most at stake here are the feelings of bridezillas and egos.
Sorry to sound harsh but, true!
When I had to go into hospital for a brain scan (MRI), I didn't care what organisations the radiographer, radiologist or neurologist belonged to (or even if there exists such organisations).
You send your kids to school; do you grill each of their teachers as to which professional organisation they belong to? I have been the teacher of literally thousands of different students in 2 states and in Korea. I have never once been asked - ever.
The once I have appeared before a magistrate represented by a barrister (thankfully for which I did not have to pay), I didn't ask him about his memberships.
I had the pleasure on stepping on board the USS Missouri many years ago; damn, I should of asked the captain if he belonged to the 'captains of ships capable of destroying the world club' and demanded he resigned if he could not produce his card.:Doh:
I would contend that:-
your health;
your kids' education, and;
your liberty
defense of the free world
are far, far, far, far, far, far, far (get the point?:)) more important than the absolute sharpness of your wedding photos
If we trust people in these vital areas, then really - a few photos? A big deal? I don't think so.
Redgum
30-07-2010, 11:59pm
Jasevk, that's a little naive as AIPP and other industry bodies are nothing but a Union promoting the self interest of members. To think they may represent the general public or the "client" is at best fanciful. Certainly they like to portray that image but usually they are so under resourced they often have difficulty in staying afloat. You only have to look at their membership across the years to see they only attract the less resourceful and usually for only a period until the member establishes independence or bankruptcy.
Okay, that may be a bit harsh but it's factual.
When a prospective new member is trying to build a business they would be better focussed on networking with industry and commerce who are the only people that can source potential clients.
The bottom line is you need to make money out of the industry to survive and to have the added expense and pressure of an industry group telling you to invest in more resources and training (which they usually sponsor) would be folly.
The fact is that in 26 years with this and the film industry my sole source of work has been from networking with commerce and that's despite a lengthy period as chairman of a number of so-called industry bodies.
JM Tran
31-07-2010, 12:58am
I had the pleasure on stepping on board the USS Missouri many years ago; damn, I should of asked the captain if he belonged to the 'captains of ships capable of destroying the world club' and demanded he resigned if he could not produce his card
HAHAHAHA! I actually had to laugh out loud at that:) good call Scotty
but if u must know, the first captain of the USS Missouri belonged to the 'gun club' - battleships and heavy cruisers during WWII that were against the advent of aircraft carriers and favoured the good old naval tradition of sailing up to your enemy and pounding them with the biggest guns you have:)
wow must be a long time ago when she was still operational
Scotty72
31-07-2010, 1:08am
HAHAHAHA! I actually had to laugh out loud at that:) good call Scotty
but if u must know, the first captain of the USS Missouri belonged to the 'gun club' - battleships and heavy cruisers during WWII that were against the advent of aircraft carriers and favoured the good old naval tradition of sailing up to your enemy and pounding them with the biggest guns you have:)
wow must be a long time ago when she was still operational
1992.
I remember she did a test fire of her guns off Sydney way back then, saw the footage. What power!
Aparently, if all the big guns were fired at once to the side, the ship would lurch several metres to the opposite side.
Each shell was about the weight of a family sedan and could be thrown up to about 25 miles (40 km).
Now, that is a ship's captain you do not want angry at you. :lol2:
JM Tran
31-07-2010, 1:12am
1992.
I remember she did a test fire of her guns off Sydney way back then, saw the footage. What power!
Aparently, if all the big guns were fired at once to the side, the ship would lurch several metres to the opposite side.
Each shell was about the weight of a family sedan and could be thrown up to about 25 miles (40 km).
Now, that is a ship's captain you do not want angry at you. :lol2:
was the ship doing a promo tour for the movie Under Seige? LOL
I remembered a scene where one of the bad guy was near one of the 16 inch guns when it fired, he was in a lot of pain but in real life he would have been knocked unconscious by concussion and probably bled to death in the ears hehe
Scotty72
31-07-2010, 1:14am
Now, that is a ship's captain you do not want angry at you. :lol2:
Unless you live over the mountains - then, you go ahead and tell him his mother wears army boots...
Scotty72
31-07-2010, 1:20am
was the ship doing a promo tour for the movie Under Seige? LOL
I remembered a scene where one of the bad guy was near one of the 16 inch guns when it fired, he was in a lot of pain but in real life he would have been knocked unconscious by concussion and probably bled to death in the ears hehe
Yeah! I remember that movie - Steven Segal...
I read about that scene in a movie -mistakes type web page. They said pretty well what you did - but I think they went a step further to say if you were within a few feet, you may literally get torn to pieces by the concussion. I would believe it (but have no way of verifying and am not willing to be the subject of a test) considering the energy required to lob a weight equal to a Holden Commodore 40kms through the air.
It would definately hurt!
Red... Not naive unless you've misinterpreted me mate. I didn't say the AIPP represent clients, I did however mention that they have an interest in providing resources for togs in helping clients understand how it's members operate.
Err, well, if those here ( you are a phitogapher in your own that is I hope trying to get better and better) that can't see the importance of providing a high quality product to paying clients ethically and professionally then I just shake my head. Photography is of course not life or death, neithers accountancy, or teaching for that matter. Very few professions are. But the consumer in each has the right to expect a certain minimum standard and someone somewhere had to ascertain and support that standard and if the shit hits the fan the photographer.
Redgum you've obviously had bad experiences with aipp or whoever but my observation to date doesn't at all align with yours. I guess with all these things it's a matter of personal opinion and experience and they vary much greater than I would have thought.
farmer_rob
31-07-2010, 7:57am
Err, well, if those here ( you are a phitogapher in your own that is I hope trying to get better and better) that can't see the importance of providing a high quality product to paying clients ethically and professionally then I just shake my head. Photography is of course not life or death, neithers accountancy, or teaching for that matter. Very few professions are. But the consumer in each has the right to expect a certain minimum standard and someone somewhere had to ascertain and support that standard and if the shit hits the fan the photographer.
Redgum you've obviously had bad experiences with aipp or whoever but my observation to date doesn't at all align with yours. I guess with all these things it's a matter of personal opinion and experience and they vary much greater than I would have thought.
I think your points about what a photographer should be providing are good. However, the connections to the industry bodies is weak.
The "importance of providing a high quality product to paying clients ethically and professionally" is two-fold: ongoing business and recommendation; and not ending up in court. However, the industry bodies are (IMO) irrelevant to that at the moment - they have no enforcement power, no public visibility and a photographer can provide a proper service without the industry body's assistance (and a defence with a licensed lawyer:), dependent of course on the quality of the lawyer, which is not reflected in the licensing).
"But the consumer in each has the right to expect a certain minimum standard and someone somewhere had to ascertain and support that standard" - this is typically the consumer affairs department in the relevant state. Why should photographers be any different to others offering an unlicenceable service? What relevance do the industry bodies have here? (At least at present.)
Redgum you've obviously had bad experiences with aipp or whoever but my observation to date doesn't at all align with yours. I guess with all these things it's a matter of personal opinion and experience and they vary much greater than I would have thought.
Kiwi, I've not had a bad experience with any industry organisation. I'm simply relaying my thoughts on their value to the professional and that experience has not been good value. However, each must enjoy their own experience so if a budding photographer needs that support, great. There are better ways though.
1992.
I remember she did a test fire of her guns off Sydney way back then, saw the footage. What power!
Aparently, if all the big guns were fired at once to the side, the ship would lurch several metres to the opposite side.
Each shell was about the weight of a family sedan and could be thrown up to about 25 miles (40 km). Now, that is a ship's captain you do not want angry at you. :lol2:
Now here's a lesson in history for both of you, Scotty and JM.
She came to this country in 1967, she came in anger for R&R from the Vietnam war. In those days I worked in a Bank and was a gunnery officer in the Navy Reserve (Sydney). Those roles earned me flight by Tracker to Cairns and the most wonderful trip on the Missouri from there to Sydney exchanging money for her officers and crew before they got leave. When we arrived in Sydney I had the pleasure of escorting some of her officers to places of interest in and around that town.
Anyway, back to the ship, rigged for war she carried nearly 5000 crew, the officers cabin from which I worked was bigger than a normal house and with any 16" broadside the ship would move up to 20 feet sidewards. The ship was so heavy that they would take off all power just north of Newcastle so that she could stop when she reached Sydney heads.
As I was also a Navy photographer I got hundreds of shots of her some of which were published in the Sydney Sun newspaper on her arrival. It was a big event.
Just out of interest she had five fully functional cinemas on board, was fully fitted out with two television stations and the photographic contingent numbered well over thirty people. The food onboard was exceptional and Yank officers were often willing to pay $500 for a round trip by taxi to the Blue Mountains (hence the escort by Australian officers). A lot of money in those days.
Ahhhh!!! Young togs have no idea of adventure these days. :(
I am amazed at the number of people who buy a camera,take some photographs, add photography after their name a think they are a photographer. It is owed to anyone using your services that you have some knowledge of the workings of a camera & related matter & you owe it to yourself to have some basic business acumen and legal knowledge relating to contract & photography laws.
I have come across so called photographers who do not ask for permission to take an obviously "private" photo. Neither have they known or bothered to find out about the legality of shooting at a park, event or zoo etc..
I also cringe when I see " I've got a wedding what sort of lens do I buy?" or "Do I need a back up camera for weddings?" If you are touting yourself as a professional be one.
If you are serious about calling yourself a photographer register as a business, take some courses & pay some taxes (or not as the case may be) the same as the rest of the profession. It does have benefits.
You must register for GST if:
1. You are carrying on an enterprise
2. You're annual turnover will exceed $75,000
Whether you register or not depends on advice from an accountant.
The starting post and boy has this thread moved on.
I just finished reading the 4 pages yesterday and I get on FB chat "oi what lens would you use for weddings"
I ask why.
"Cause I am a second shooter at a wedding tomorrow". This person falls in to the category of just got a dslr with a nifty fifty. :eek: Who is helping a friend.
Asked who the pro tog was, another person who just happened to have a new dslr and a nifty 50.
Not sure on backups, possibly a camera from memory.
Are these the people that make you cringe or were you one of them? (General question to members) Not to Tony B. Did you dive into the business like this and sink or swim?
Do clients really see the difference between paying for a photographer that has been in the business with 20+yrs experience with a great portfolio or paying for someone that is starting out. When they want to save on the dollars as they need it to pay for the rest of the wedding or honeymoon.
Is it other togs who see that the lighting was crap the composition appalling and focus issues, plus the wedding dress being blue and the blacks being clipped.
And merely the clients just want their day captured, better than nothing?
Just had to share I couldn't believe that it happened to be honest.
Are these the people that make you cringe or were you one of them? (General question to members)
In the eyes of the community photographers rate between a used car salesman and a lawyer. That's last and third last. If you tell people you're a photographer they usually respond by asking when you intend to get a real job.
So when you ask "do I cringe" I say no. Was I one of them, probably. In my early days I bought the equipment I could afford and simply used my passion and creativity to carry me through, I made mistakes (still do) but I certainly achieved my goals and my clients still love me (at least pay me).
bigdazzler
31-07-2010, 9:17am
Do clients really see the difference between paying for a photographer that has been in the business with 20+yrs experience with a great portfolio or paying for someone that is starting out. When they want to save on the dollars as they need it to pay for the rest of the wedding or honeymoon.
And merely the clients just want their day captured, better than nothing?
Like it or not .. theres a market there. Simple as that. It all comes down to individual priorities, budgets, and hopefully realistic expectations.
I see the benefit in buying a Mercedes Benz over a Commodore ... but I cant afford it, so I buy the best car I can afford. Photography is no different.
arthurking83
31-07-2010, 9:59am
just on that note - have you ever tendered for a Government project. The company I started off with did (tourism). Tenders from unqualified (no piece of paper) Photographers were disregarded. Not all photography is based on taking baby pics for private clients (not that there is anything wrong with that) Regards
So on that note:
You know for sure that tenders from unqualified photographers were disregarded?
From what source?
If this source is revealing information as to the tendering process, I think there may be a conflict of interest somewhere in the system.
if the company you used to work for is revealing this kind of info to you or anyone else, then there is the case for very unprofessional conduct by your initial employer!
I would rather deal with honest but uncreative and talentless amateurs posing as professionals, rather than devious underhanded 'marketing machines' posing as photographers!
Disregarding that facetious commentary by me there, the absolute endpoint of what you say there Zollo, with respect to requiring some form of qualifications to secure employment.. the greatest of the greats.. Ansel Adams would struggle to find employment as a photographer then.
The department that offered the tender would have simply brushed over and dismissed Ansel's tender and seen that his only admittance to any form of qualification was that he taught himself the piano when he was younger.
Maybe I'll apply for a tender one day soon even though I have no professional photographic accreditation to add to the raft of other non existent formal qualifications just to see how it all pans out.
Although I'll be sure to add efficient and proficient with an external light meter.. just to be sure!
[QUOTE=Scotty72;641731]The comments related more to the fact that the photographers need to promote the AIPP
to Joe Public. Joe public doesn't care! Joe public cares about examples of quality photos.
People are talking about photography as though it were brain surgery or some other highly skilled occupation on which lives, liberties or nations depend... Come on, get over it! The most at stake here are the feelings of bridezillas and egos.
Sorry to sound harsh but, true!
When I had to go into hospital for a brain scan (MRI), I didn't care what organisations the radiographer, radiologist or neurologist belonged to (or even if there exists such organisations).
The Australian Institute of Radiography is the peak body representing radiographers, radiation therapists and sonographers in Australia.
Yes - lucky for you there are orgainisations and hoops to jump through that these radiographers (another field of photography i learnt about and could have pursued) belong to that regulate the industry. you dont seem to understand this. Lucky for you it wasnt a hobby-ist that had lots of experience xraying mice in the shed, or maybe you did get one of these. as the consumer you had trust that the xrayer was qualified. and do you think the xrayer would have got his job without his quals? maybe as a trainee. http://www.air.asn.au/ hey and guess what radiology when stripped back is only taking of photos :devil6:
The once I have appeared before a magistrate represented by a barrister (thankfully for which I did not have to pay), I didn't ask him about his memberships.
again, you assumed that he was a professional and qualified to do his job. again the onus was on the barrister to be part of any organisations that he felt would help him be a better barrister. so whats it to you that i as a photographer and business owner have a) got a diploma in my field and b) belong to any number of peak organisations that i so choose. so what if I feel that by having a few extra letters behind my name and maybe a member of (insert evil money making peak photographic body name here) logo on my portfolio, i feel the client is slightly more re-assured that i have standards of work i'll try and keep to. so what?
get over it alright.
Scotty72
31-07-2010, 11:06am
[QUOTE]
The Australian Institute of Radiography is the peak body representing radiographers, radiation therapists and sonographers in Australia.
Yes - lucky for you there are orgainisations and hoops to jump through that these radiographers (another field of photography i learnt about and could have pursued) belong to that regulate the industry. you dont seem to understand this. Lucky for you it wasnt a hobby-ist that had lots of experience xraying mice in the shed, or maybe you did get one of these. as the consumer you had trust that the xrayer was qualified. and do you think the xrayer would have got his job without his quals? maybe as a trainee. http://www.air.asn.au/ hey and guess what radiology when stripped back is only taking of photos :devil6:
again, you assumed that he was a professional and qualified to do his job. again the onus was on the barrister to be part of any organisations that he felt would help him be a better barrister. so whats it to you that i as a photographer and business owner have a) got a diploma in my field and b) belong to any number of peak organisations that i so choose. so what if I feel that by having a few extra letters behind my name and maybe a member of (insert evil money making peak photographic body name here) logo on my portfolio, i feel the client is slightly more re-assured that i have standards of work i'll try and keep to. so what?
get over it alright.
Yes, but you are totally missing my point (as does Kiwi a few posts up)..
If a radiologist /radiologist does sloppy work - people can die.
If a barrister does sloppy work - innocents can be imprisoned - or the guilty can walk.
If a teacher does sloppy work - educational opportunites can be lost forever.
If a photographer does sloppy work - a bride can burst into tears.
I have deliberately put these into a sliding scale of 'who cares-ness'.
I would contend that the first two are of absolute importance to society and the consequences of mistakes in these areas can be very grave - requiring govt regulation, licencing etc. The community would expect this.
The third, this is perhaps more of a grey area... there would be less agreement about whether a teacher can destroy a young life - or the young life gets over the one bad teacher and moves on.... still - I think most would expect some regulation.
The last, really - who cares? Is this an area in which the heavy hand of govt has any business in? It is 'he said - she said'. If you have an issue you can a) get over it or b) take it to Judge Judy. No life is going to be ruined.
So, sure - join a body - improve... but to call for regulation? To call for complusion to join? It is clearly a ridiculous idea that presupposes photography as 'nationally or vitally important'.
People, it is not! Get over it!:lol2:
Scotty
Zollo, the AIR is rather a poor example to use I feel.
It isn't an organisation that a radiographer must belong to in order to practice their profession and by the organisation's own admission on their website, they represent over 70% of radiographers.
Does that mean that I am in danger from the other 20+% that aren't members and should I be asking to see their credentials or examples of their previous work before I go for my next CT scan?
I think not as they and all the rest operate under the government regulations pertaining to their field of expertise.
The similarities between the AIR and a body that represents photographers are very similar, for a fee they will assist and educate you as well as providing benefits to your working life.
However, radiographers must be licensed to practice under government regulations, photographers do not.
Longshots
31-07-2010, 11:19am
just on that note - have you ever tendered for a Government project. The company I started off with did (tourism). Tenders from unqualified (no piece of paper) Photographers were disregarded. Not all photography is based on taking baby pics for private clients (not that there is anything wrong with that) Regards
I've produced plenty of tenders for Gov, State and Federal and the abscence of the "piece of paper" has certainly not resulted in my submissions being disregarded. As I've worked for, and still do many goverment bodies, I can categorically state that I've shot for many without issue, which includes Tourism Australia and Qld Tourism
I'm coming to the conclusion that if these type of myths continue to be posted, repeatedly that those making the claims are going to believe in their own propoganda.
The only time I have ever needed the "piece of paper" was when I asked to teach other students, which I can completely understand.
[QUOTE=zollo;641952]
Yes, but you are totally missing my point (as does Kiwi a few posts up)..
If a radiologist /radiologist does sloppy work - people can die.
If a barrister does sloppy work - innocents can be imprisoned - or the guilty can walk.
If a teacher does sloppy work - educational opportunites can be lost forever.
If a photographer does sloppy work - a bride can burst into tears.
I have deliberately put these into a sliding scale of 'who cares-ness'.
I would contend that the first two are of absolute importance to society and the consequences of mistakes in these areas can be very grave - requiring govt regulation, licencing etc. The community would expect this.
The third, this is perhaps more of a grey area... there would be less agreement about whether a teacher can destroy a young life - or the young life gets over the one bad teacher and moves on.... still - I think most would expect some regulation.
The last, really - who cares? Is this an area in which the heavy hand of govt has any business in? It is 'he said - she said'. If you have an issue you can a) get over it or b) take it to Judge Judy. No life is going to be ruined.
So, sure - join a body - improve... but to call for regulation? To call for complusion to join? It is clearly a ridiculous idea that presupposes photography as 'nationally or vitally important'.
People, it is not! Get over it!:lol2:
Scotty
who cares?
a) well if you run a business as a photographer then you will care. it is your income, livelihood, basically a matter of a quality life or a starving artist life. bankruptcy or loss of homes are pretty important to most people.
b)so if these peak bodies can instill a sense of security in the public that their members will keep to a certain standard, then more power to them. If you choose not to display that logo because you dont believe the bodies mean a thing - it is entirely your choice. And best of luck convincing smart customers that your work exceeds all those who do have the logo. also when you are charging the sums that i have seen for photoshoots $50,000 plus, good luck convincing clients with a portfolio of family member portraits, no papers, no peak body memberships etc.
I've produced plenty of tenders for Gov, State and Federal and the abscence of the "piece of paper" has certainly not resulted in my submissions being disregarded. As I've worked for, and still do many goverment bodies, I can categorically state that I've shot for many without issue, which includes Tourism Australia and Qld Tourism
I'm coming to the conclusion that if these type of myths continue to be posted, repeatedly that those making the claims are going to believe in their own propoganda.
The only time I have ever needed the "piece of paper" was when I asked to teach other students, which I can completely understand.
thats your experience, mine differs and is def not a myth. regards
Longshots
31-07-2010, 11:31am
Jasevk, that's a little naive as AIPP and other industry bodies are nothing but a Union promoting the self interest of members. To think they may represent the general public or the "client" is at best fanciful. Certainly they like to portray that image but usually they are so under resourced they often have difficulty in staying afloat. You only have to look at their membership across the years to see they only attract the less resourceful and usually for only a period until the member establishes independence or bankruptcy.
Okay, that may be a bit harsh but it's factual.
When a prospective new member is trying to build a business they would be better focussed on networking with industry and commerce who are the only people that can source potential clients.
The bottom line is you need to make money out of the industry to survive and to have the added expense and pressure of an industry group telling you to invest in more resources and training (which they usually sponsor) would be folly.
The fact is that in 26 years with this and the film industry my sole source of work has been from networking with commerce and that's despite a lengthy period as chairman of a number of so-called industry bodies.
Whilst agreeing with your final comments. I'd disagree with your former paragraph. Everyone to their own. My view of AIPP and ACMP is that it suits some people and doesnt suit others. I've yet to meet a new member who hasnt gained considerably out of membership. I've met plenty who've been members for 10 years plus, who question their membership though. My view is you get out what you put in. Its not a union though. Its an association. There is a very big difference.
In brief, those I've suggested try AIPP membership have rarely if ever regretted the outlay. As its a tax deductable expense for professionals, then it seems to me to be a bit of a no brainer. Which is why I pay AIPP subscription and 4 other associations around the world. Add them all together and they are less than the simple bold listings I have in Yellow and White Pages, for which I get seriously poor value.
So while I disagree with some of your views Redgum, I wholeheartedly agree with some :)
And can I quickly add that AIPP are not calling for compulsory regulation - as this myth seems to be continuing in this discussion
Scotty72
31-07-2010, 11:33am
[QUOTE=Scotty72;641967]
who cares?
a) well if you run a business as a photographer then you will care. it is your income, livelihood, basically a matter of a quality life or a starving artist life. bankruptcy or loss of homes are pretty important to most people.
b)so if these peak bodies can instill a sense of security in the public that their members will keep to a certain standard, then more power to them. If you choose not to display that logo because you dont believe the bodies mean a thing - it is entirely your choice. And best of luck convincing smart customers that your work exceeds all those who do have the logo. also when you are charging the sums that i have seen for photoshoots $50,000 plus, good luck convincing clients with a portfolio of family member portraits, no papers, no peak body memberships etc.
Firstly, I don't imagine I'll be charging $50 for my work any time soon, let alone $50,000. And, I suspect if I am charging $50,000, it will because I have an industry-wide reputation - not because I have a piece of paper.
Eg. I do not know anyone's professional qualifications on here but, if I were to engage anyone on here for my wedding, I would ask JM... why, because a) he seems to produce quality work in his sleep and b) most people of here seem to respect him. Yet, I have no idea what, if any, pieces of paper he has. If I wanted to buy a sea-scape - Xenedis for much the same reasons plus, I have met him a few times and when he is not throwing himself and his camera into the ocean, he is a great bloke who is always willing to help others take better photos.
I'll repeat, I am not against people joining organisation to learn and improve.
However, regulation and forcing people to join is very different and should be applied to jobs where lives, liberty or other very serious matters are at stake.
What you seems worried about in your first point is either a) industry reputation or b) professional jealousy.
This is none of the government's business and nor should you ask it to play nanny for this.
Scotty
ricktas
31-07-2010, 11:38am
Just a thought. So all of us that are not professional photographers..does that make us unprofessional photographers?
Longshots
31-07-2010, 11:41am
thats your experience, mine differs and is def not a myth. regards
Thats the whole point of this discussion - talking about first hand experiences and not second hand.
And I wasnt referring to this as a myth but countering a claim that you made, which is here:
just on that note - have you ever tendered for a Government project. The company I started off with did (tourism). Tenders from unqualified (no piece of paper) Photographers were disregarded. Not all photography is based on taking baby pics for private clients (not that there is anything wrong with that) Regards
You ask a question, and then state that if an unqualified photographer submits a tender to Gov projects, that they will be disregarded.
Doesnt appear that an experience you would have received as you have that "piece of paper"
My experience clearly demonstrates that thats not true.
yep there will always be work for all types of photographers, so horses for courses. do not disagree at all.
Just a thought. So all of us that are not professional photographers..does that make us unprofessional photographers?
haha i see where you are coming from - but professionalism is a given if you want to run a home or a world wide business. to discredit organisations (of whom some have not even heard of) or peoples memberships of them, is unprofessional in my view.
Longshots
31-07-2010, 11:57am
Just a thought. So all of us that are not professional photographers..does that make us unprofessional photographers?
LOL I like that. Same thing then; I've met plenty of full time photographers who are no professional, but I wouldnt be rude enough to suggest that they're amateurs when they're not being "professional" as it would be harsh to amateurs.
Strikes me that some people really cannot tell the difference between the use of an adjective and a noun in this particular case :)
Still a very interesting balanced conversation here.....and what, no name calling?
I am trying to put it into my perspective here as well. I compare this to my wife, who has a Bachelor of Commerce (an accountant) and is a CPA. The only reason she decided to do her CPA was that in a previous job (working for the Auditor General in SA), it was a requisite that she became one. She has now been out of the Auditing position for nearly 10 years and her current position doesn't require it. But she still pays her membership each year (tax deductible, as per what Longshots said above). She also has to do her x amount of hours professional development. Why? Because being a member of an organisation such as that gives her a big leg up in certain areas. She can use events to network (yep, its not what you know some times, but any advantage will help). It does give her a better standing then just saying she is an accountant.
But, I then look at the professional IT organisations (apart from the things like MSCE's and CISCO certification, which is vastly different). I have never ever known anyone to get a single ounce of benifit out of any of the IT bodies (but I am probably naive) .
Professional bodies have there place, even if it is just to help the members networking and having that little competitive edge. Thats what the bodies are there for. The fact that the AIPP requires active membership (I.E., portfolio reviews) is a good thing. It means that togs can't simply rely on the one good shoot that they had 5 years ago to get them work.
And just on the side, I am wondering whether its worth the while of AP to actually have a thread where the different photography bodies in Australia are listed, what they are about and what benefits they have (mind you, it would have to be moderated to keep an impartial level and not to create a slag fest)
With a bit of a review of this thread and the original question / rant / view of the OP I feel that it was never meant to be a thread along the lines of pro / anti photographic organisations or their members.
The various bodies that exist do so for many good reasons and purely debating the merits of those organisations doesn't do much for the original aim of this thread.
Longshots
31-07-2010, 12:12pm
With a bit of a review of this thread and the original question / rant / view of the OP I feel that it was never meant to be a thread along the lines of pro / anti photographic organisations or their members.
The various bodies that exist do so for many good reasons and purely debating the merits of those organisations doesn't do much for the original aim of this thread.
Scuse me quoting you - I just wanted to 100% agree with your point. And it would be nice to go back to the OP's original point. Please ?
Im not real good keeping to topic, the thread would have ended ages ago :)
I think it's spot on topic. Really depends on your point of view (narrow or wide)?
Scotty72
31-07-2010, 1:58pm
haha i see where you are coming from - but professionalism is a given if you want to run a home or a world wide business. to discredit organisations (of whom some have not even heard of) or peoples memberships of them, is unprofessional in my view.
Ah-ha!
This demonstrates the point I made in my first post in this threat.
Un-professional is generally a term we use to describe and discredit that which we do not personally like.
Therefore, it is a weasel word. :th3:
Scotty
Scotty72
31-07-2010, 2:01pm
Im not real good keeping to topic, the thread would have ended ages ago :)
Yeah, JM and I were talking battleships - if you don't mind, let's all get back to that!
JM Tran
31-07-2010, 2:59pm
Yes I quite like talking about battleships and real men's toys over cameras and the AIPP and the AAPP and the CBF and the ###
:)!
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