Tragedy! [Archive] - AusPhotography:: Australia's Premier Photography Forum::

Jules

13-07-2010, 8:14pm

Tragedy has struck tonight. While shooting with my 5D MkII (which I've had for just over a month), the shutter button failed. I felt it go. :(

AF still occurs when the button is partially depressed, but the shutter does not release when the button is fully depressed. Although I'm certain it's a hardware failure, I removed batteries, re-seated the lens, changed settings etc., but to no avail.

Has anyone had a similar failure? Any idea how long it will take to fix it? We have some family functions coming up in the next couple of weeks and I hope the 5D is fixed and returned by then, but I'm not sure that will happen.

Not a good end to what was already a bad day.

/End Tale of Woe.

ricktas

13-07-2010, 8:18pm

Considering the Queensland Canon repair centre is now closed and camera's have to be sent to NSW for repair, unfortunately me thinks you will be lucky to get in back in two weeks. But I hope you can point out it is only a month old and get some 'priority service'.

Jules

13-07-2010, 8:21pm

Scotty72

13-07-2010, 8:34pm

Jules

13-07-2010, 8:39pm

Only a month, you should hint very strongly for a swap for new.

Scotty

Trust me, I will!

TassieSnapper

13-07-2010, 8:54pm

arrrggghhh one month old. You cant be happy about that.

Ima just gonna run and test my shutter button now...

Cage

13-07-2010, 8:58pm

Bumma Jules.

I feel your pain.

Kevin

mikew09

13-07-2010, 9:03pm

The first I have heard of the Qld service centre closing. That makes sense now, I was in teds yesterday and they commented about just bring the camera back to us and we will look after warranty repair. I am pretty certain it was only about 4 weeks ago they would did not provide that service.

farmer_rob

13-07-2010, 9:11pm

Harsh.

Have you been in touch with the retailer you bought it from? They have a degree of obligation to resolve the issue as it would be clearly under warranty regardless of what they say about it being canon's problem.

Jules

13-07-2010, 9:14pm

It only just failed tonight Rob, so haven't been in touch with the retailer yet, but will definitely call them tomorrow.

Xenedis

13-07-2010, 9:18pm

Sorry to hear of your misfortune. It never makes for pleasing reading.

Irrespective of whether Canon has a repair centre in Queensland (which, as Rick said, it no longer does), you'll still be lucky to see it back within a fortnight.

You can either take it back to the retailer or contact Canon HQ in North Ryde (Sydney) and ship it there.

If you bought your camera from a retailer and it is Australian stock, it may be easier to take it back to the retailer, as then you won't need to worry about shipping.

Please keep us posted on how things go.

Scotty72

14-07-2010, 8:13am

Just keep in mind that the contract for goods is between yourself and the retailer (not Canon). So, lean as heavily as you can on the retailer. I would be at least demanding a loan camera for the duration.

I remember a few years back, mug me buys a laptop from a well known electronics retailer. Two weeks later, internal speakers die.

Retailer estimates 4-6 weeks repair time. Well, I, after trying to be reasonable, made an a**e of myself; trying to scare off customers until they agreed that they in fact had obligations as the retailer.

Within 2 days, I had a brand new replacement. They needed the 2 days to sent it back to HP to assess the problem (ie, I hadn't taken it into the shower).

5D IIs aren't a cheap item and you would have a very reasonable case to argue that the $3000+ you paid for it entitles you to more than 4 weeks trouble free service.

Good luck!

matilda

14-07-2010, 8:19am

it took nearly 2 months to get my camera back from repairs.

the hold up - the insurance company. They took their sweet time! I was furious with them cause they never gave me any updates with what was going on with the claim.

if you are happy to pay it out yourself then you are looking at about 2 weeks. If it is new though it should be covered under warranty.

bigdazzler

14-07-2010, 8:31am

I would be going to the retailer and pushing for a replacement, insistently and vigorously. Good luck Jules ..

dieselpower

14-07-2010, 8:42am

:( Good luck Jules. As others have said, the retailer track might be a good option - you may get a straight out swap over.

Fantasyphoto

14-07-2010, 9:11am

I would be going to the retailer and pushing for a replacement, insistently and vigorously. Good luck Jules ..

Indeed, if the camera is faulty they have to comply with YOUR choice of... Refund, Repair or Replace.

Good luck with your replacement :th3:

jasevk

14-07-2010, 9:18am

I agree, put loads and loads of pressure on the retailer.... as a licensed dealer they have an obligation to the customer..... just as the manufacturer has an obligation to them!

41jas

14-07-2010, 9:21am

Lets hope we hear a good outcome....Go Jules. Give it to them.:D

bigdazzler

14-07-2010, 9:23am

Indeed, if the camera is faulty they have to comply with YOUR choice of... Refund, Repair or Replace.

Im no retail expert but doesnt the store have the right to go through the process .. repair, replace, refund ... in that order ?? I recall someone telling me that once, but they can also exercise discretion and do any one of those off the bat as well.

Fantasyphoto

14-07-2010, 9:42am

Im no retail expert but doesnt the store have the right to go through the process .. repair, replace, refund ... in that order ?? I recall someone telling me that once, but they can also exercise discretion and do any one of those off the bat as well.

Nope, it is consumers choice provided the goods are proven faulty.

Retailers will often try and bluff their way thru a repair as that way they are passing the problem onto the distributor.

Jules

14-07-2010, 9:45am

Thanks for the support everyone. My husband (he bought the camera for me) has talked to the retailers this morning and is taking it in to them today. He'll be pushing for the camera to be replaced, given the fact it's still very new, so I'll keep my fingers crossed. That said, I have accepted that it may be sent to Canon NSW for repair or at least assessment to prove the fault, and be gone for a few weeks. Lucky I still have my trusty little 450D.

Fantasyphoto

14-07-2010, 9:47am

You will find an explanation of the law as it applies in NSW on this page http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/Consumers/Refunds_and_warranties.html

Other states would have a similar policy.

bigdazzler

14-07-2010, 9:49am

Nope, it is consumers choice provided the goods are proven faulty.

Retailers will often try and bluff their way thru a repair as that way they are passing the problem onto the distributor.

fair enough ... thats good to know. Cheers mate.

mongo

14-07-2010, 10:16am

Mongo is sorry to hear this Jules. It is very off putting.

It is repair or replace unless it is not of merchantable quality in which case it will be replaced. However, you have the onus of proving that. If it cannot be preplaced – then a refund

Even if it is repaired, if you put sufficient pressure on them (you do belong to a group of nearly 9000 member/potential buyers), you may be able to get , say, an additional period of warranty out of them (above and beyond the normal period of warranty that came with the camera) to give you peace of mind over a product that you now do not feel so confident about.

Additionally, keep records (times, dates, events etc) of any other problems (particularly the same problem if it occurs). This may give you a better argument for replacement or refund down the track should that happen.

Steve Axford

14-07-2010, 10:26am

You will find an explanation of the law as it applies in NSW on this page http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/Consumers/Refunds_and_warranties.html

Other states would have a similar policy.
Are you sure that this doesn't just apply to items that have a fault when bought? Items that fail after a month fall under the warranty, which (as far as I am aware) does not guarantee new item replacement.

Scotty72

14-07-2010, 10:42am

Mongo is sorry to hear this Jules. It is very off putting.

It is repair or replace unless it is not of merchantable quality in which case it will be replace. However, you have the onus of proving that. If it cannot be preplaced – then a refund

This may vsry from state to state but, in NSW at least, Mongo is not correct.

As Fantasyphoto points out, it is the customer's choice. The link he provides goes on t back this up.

In the first instance, the customer may demand a refund; the sale is a form of contract to provide you with a merchantable good free of defects etc for a reasonable time (this is regardless of stated warranty period). By selling a faulty product (1 month suggests it was a faulty product), they have breached this contract and you are entitled to cancel the contract and demand your money back.

Consumers may ask for a refund if the goods purchased:

have a basic, serious fault that was not known by the consumer at the time of purchase

Consumers and traders may negotiate other solutions such as a repair or replacement but under these circumstances a consumer has a legal right to cancel a contract (rescind) and receive a refund if there is a breach of that contract.

Remember, no matter what the retail tells you (and many will try to bluff) you can ask for your money back on the spot. Generally, they will not want to do this so offer them the opportunity to maintain the contract by replacing it with a brand new item.

Don't allow them to try to tell you it is the manufacturer's fault for the delay... the manufacturer has no contract with you - not your problem. The retailer has the responsibility - then they chase the manufacturer.

If this takes more than three days for Canon to 'assess' (two days to get it there - one to look at it) then go after the retailer. Demand a new camera and tell the retailer it is them with a contract with the manufacturer, not you and you will not suffer for the lack of promptness in a contract you do not have.

Scotty

Scotty72

14-07-2010, 10:51am

Are you sure that this doesn't just apply to items that have a fault when bought? Items that fail after a month fall under the warranty, which (as far as I am aware) does not guarantee new item replacement.

Not at all...

Warranty periods really mean nothing in this case.

Assuming Jules hasn't used his camera as a football etc.

For a camera (which most people expect to have a lifespan of 2-3 years, at least), for a fault to develop within a month indicates the camera was sold with substandard workmanship or parts. Unless it was sold as a factory second, then the product was not sold in a condition fit for its purpose - including lasting more than a month.

Even if you get something go wrong a week after the warranty expires, you are still entitled to seek a replacement (from the retailer - don't bother to call CANON - they have zero obligation). After 2 years, you have less of a case but after 13 months, would any reasonable person expect a $3000 camera to have lived out its life. (a $100 camera - probably yes)

I wish I could find it but, I remember a decision where a washing machine / dryer (or similar) broke down just out of warranty. The person was smart enough to have kept the catalogue that suggested you would get 'years of service' from the machine. It was decided that the retailer made a claim and needed to honour it.

Scotty

Fantasyphoto

14-07-2010, 10:55am

...... Remember, no matter what the retail tells you (and many will try to bluff) you can ask for your money back on the spot. Generally, they will not want to do this so offer them the opportunity to maintain the contract by replacing it with a brand new item.

Don't allow them to try to tell you it is the manufacturer's fault for the delay... the manufacturer has no contract with you - not your problem. The retailer has the responsibility - then they chase the manufacturer.

If this takes more than three days for Canon to 'assess' (two days to get it there - one to look at it) then go after the retailer. Demand a new camera and tell the retailer it is them with a contract with the manufacturer, not you and you will not suffer for the lack of promptness in a contract you do not have.......

Scotty, I fully agree with the first 2 paragraphs however I believe if you proceed with the repair as indicated in paragraph 3 then you have made your final choice (to repair) and would not be able to impose additional conditions such as allowing only 3 days. By now we all know it takes far longer to repair a camera or even get it assessed.

mongo

14-07-2010, 11:00am

bigdazzler

14-07-2010, 11:14am

If the goods operated normally and were being used for the month (as opposed to not having been used for the first time until a month after purchase), it will be difficult to argue that the fault was there at the time of purchase.

makes sense to me ... although it is hard to swallow that something failing after such a short time wasnt somewhat defective in the first place. Sounds like something thats slipped through QA to me and took just that little bit of extra time to fail.

Scotty72

14-07-2010, 11:17am

Scotty, I fully agree with the first 2 paragraphs however I believe if you proceed with the repair as indicated in paragraph 3 then you have made your final choice (to repair) and would not be able to impose additional conditions such as allowing only 3 days. By now we all know it takes far longer to repair a camera or even get it assessed.

I agree... That is why you:

a) don't agree to repair - I only meant 3 days to get it assessed to make sure you didn't kill it (they have that right), once assessed they tell the retailer it wasn't your fault then, new camera.

b) if you do agree to repair (not sure why you would), only agree on condition it takes no longer than xx days - after which you'll get a new camera or a loan camera for the duration.

Scotty

PS. Remember, retailers will often try every bluff to get out of it. I have always found Fair Trading very helpful in this regard. (the ONE thing the NSW govt gets right)

Fantasyphoto

14-07-2010, 11:21am

No worries Scotty, much clearer thank you.

I hope the Department of Fair Trading don't look into the issue of our AP avatars as we would both be in trouble for misrepresentation :th3:

mongo

14-07-2010, 11:26am

makes sense to me ... although it is hard to swallow that something failing after such a short time wasnt somewhat defective in the first place. Sounds like something thats slipped through QA to me and took just that little bit of extra time to fail.

If it can be shown to be a latent defect that was there from the get go and only materialised later, it is a little easier to argue it was defective from the time of purchase. This may still not be enough to convince the retailer but sometimes convinces a manufacturer.

Under NSW legislation the retailer is the “port of call” and has a responsibility to the purchaser. The action can be taken against the retailer (who may join the manufacturer if they wish). It can also be against the manufacturer and the retailer.

Also, whilst the contract for purchase is clearly with the retailer, the contract for warranty is not with the retailer. The retailer is the agent for the manufacturer whereby an agreement is created between the buyer and the manufacturer for the warranty component. You often fill out the little warranty cards later. That is your agreement for warranty with the manufacturer. Both the retailer and the manufacturer warrant that the goods are of merchantable quality. To this extent , the retailer gives a warranty but not necessarily beyond that.

In any event, as a practical matter, lodging a consumer claim and having it heard or initially conciliated will take many many weeks. Far longer than the 2 weeks to have it examined and repaired. Unless you are seeking replacement, or extension of the warranty etc , there is no utility in taking this course.

Scotty72

14-07-2010, 11:29am

If the goods operated normally and were being used for the month (as opposed to not having been used for the first time until a month after purchase), it will be difficult to argue that the fault was there at the time of purchase. It looks much more like a fault which developed in the course of use and thus a matter which the retailer and the manufacturer can argue is covered by warranty.

Care should be taken not to always accept what is said on the Gov. website as gospel. It is a condensed overview and not necessarily precise.

Scotty and Mongo agree to disagree. ::umm:

Fair enough Mongo but; I can tell you this, Fair Trading have been very good in the past little while at helping customers.

Whether the fault was there at the time of purchase is irrelevant. If the fault occurs within a period of time that wear and tear from normal use could not be an excuse (I think we all agree 4 weeks is not reasonable for a $3000 camera) AND Jules did nothing to contribute to the fault (mearely using the camera is not a fault) THEN, the camera did not live up to the expectations she had at the time of the contract (completely seperate from warranty). The camera was not delivered in a state fit to do its job for a reasonable period of time - the retailer has breached the contract - simple. :)

IMHO... The whole concept of warranty is a complete sham designed to distract people from legal rights.

Life has gotten much sweeter for me since Fair Trading have come on side :).

Mongo looks scary - Mongo should start scaring retailers into honouring contracts. :lol2:

Scotty

Scotty72

14-07-2010, 11:31am

No worries Scotty, much clearer thank you.

I hope the Department of Fair Trading don't look into the issue of our AP avatars as we would both be in trouble for misrepresentation :th3:

Hey, that is a real photo of me... Sure, it was a while back whilst I was doing competition cycling... but, it is me - at least was LOL

Scotty72

14-07-2010, 11:35am

In any event, as a practical matter, lodging a consumer claim and having it heard or initially conciliated will take many many weeks. Far longer than the 2 weeks to have it examined and repaired. Unless you are seeking replacement, or extension of the warranty etc , there is no utility in taking this course.

Ahh! But standing in a shop, waving your arms around and giving other, potential customers
pause to believe that these people may not honour your consumer rights takes far less time. :lol:

That is the advantage of dealing with a busy, long standing bricks and mortar shop.

mongo

14-07-2010, 11:48am

Fair enough Mongo but; I can tell you this, Fair Trading have been very good in the past little while at helping customers.

Whether the fault was there at the time of purchase is irrelevant. If the fault occurs within a period of time that wear and tear from normal use could not be an excuse (I think we all agree 4 weeks is not reasonable for a $3000 camera) AND Jules did nothing to contribute to the fault (mearely using the camera is not a fault) THEN, the camera did not live up to the expectations she had at the time of the contract (completely seperate from warranty). The camera was not delivered in a state fit to do its job for a reasonable period of time - the retailer has breached the contract - simple. :)
Scotty

Scotty , Mongo does not disagree with you in many respects . The above are just some of those. However, when the FT Dept. get involved it is to try and assist a solution. It far from always convinces others to do what has been suggested in Jules case. The outcomes vary a lot. Ultimately, if the retailer does not wish to come to the party – they will not and the purchaser has to consider a consumer claim through a Tribunal.
This is where Mongo says, the rights people have are all very well and it’s great that they have them but they must understand what it takes to exercise them (time and effort etc). Then they have to be right legally if they do and have the necessary evidence as Tribunal operate on law and evidence. Mongo is not saying do not go down this track – he is simply saying we aware of what is involved before you do.

Mongo looks scary - Mongo should start scaring retailers into honouring contracts. :lol2:

Scotty

No one really knows what Mongo does in his other existence – do they ??

Fantasyphoto

14-07-2010, 11:53am

.....No one really knows what Mongo does in his other existence – do they ??

I always assumed it was eating stray felines and other small scrumptious furry creatures.

mongo

14-07-2010, 11:57am

I always assumed it was eating stray felines and other small scrumptious furry creatures.

too right Fantasy ! and always will.

But Mongo meant that other secret Mongo's business (which of course, is secret)

farmer_rob

14-07-2010, 12:01pm

Queensland fair trading's website on refunds is much the same as NSW (look here (http://www.fairtrading.qld.gov.au/refunds.htm)). I think Jules has a fair case for a refund if she so chooses.

I thought

The trader you bought the product from must help you resolve the problem. The trader is obliged to organise an exchange, refund or other deal with the manufacturer on your behalf.
was worth remembering.

I've dealt with warranty issues for water pumps before, and there are clear cases of manufacturing defects appearing some time after purchase, and also clear cases of the customer breaking it. I'd suggest that the shutter button not firing the shutter is a manufacturing defect.

Fantasyphoto

14-07-2010, 12:08pm

too right Fantasy ! and always will.

But Mongo meant that other secret Mongo's business (which of course, is secret)

Since joining AP I have always been cautious when visiting the eastern region of the shire even though I grew up in the area. You never know what might be lurking beneath the bushes.

Jules

14-07-2010, 8:08pm

Wow, this thread sure took on a life of it's own! Some good info here, so thanks everyone.

So, status report after 24 hours: My husband took the camera back to the store this afternoon and it's now being overnighted to Canon Sydney. The manager did try to fix it on the spot though, calling a Canon technician to provide advice over the phone (apparently they spent 20 minutes running through a variety of potential fixes) but no luck. No replacement camera at this point, but the way they have handled the matter so far, I'm happy to see how the repair route plays out over the next few days.

**Jules' fingers stay crossed.**

mongo

14-07-2010, 8:44pm

great Jules - hope it goes very well for you

Scotty72

14-07-2010, 8:48pm

Good luck.

Jules

19-08-2010, 8:07pm

Well it's been a while, but I can give a bit of an update on this.

The good news: my 5DII has finally been returned today. It's currently sitting on my desk.

The bad news: it now backfocuses with every single lens I own. And by backfocus, I mean far more than can possibly be corrected with the microfocus adjust feature. Even my 100L which previously required no MF adjustment whatsoever now couldn't hit the side of a barn.

So tomorrow the camera goes back and we either get a replacement on the spot, or will be demanding a full refund. Very not happy Jan.

TAYLORW619

19-08-2010, 8:14pm

Thats terrible, I get my 7D back from repair next weeks because of a shutter failure.

I hope same thing does not happen to me :(

I need to test my 70-200mm 2.8 IS, 50mm 1.8 and 24-105 f4 IS for micro adjust.

Im just not 100% sure how to do it. Do you know how long it takes to do?

dieselpower

20-08-2010, 6:09am

Not good Jules. Good luck today, I hope you end up with a satisfactory result this time.

Jules

20-08-2010, 7:53pm

Good news! The camera is going to be replaced. We'll pick up the new 5DII on Monday. I can't wait.

Thanks for all the comments and support everyone. I'll stop being a drama queen now!

Lani

20-08-2010, 7:57pm

That is great news Jules, look forward to seeing some pics with it. :)

Kym

20-08-2010, 8:14pm

FYI SA Law is similar...
http://www.ocba.sa.gov.au/businessadvice/customers/refunds.html

When do you have to refund?
A customer can seek redress under certain circumstances, commonly referred to as the right to repair, replacement or refund.

Signs reading ‘No Refund' are illegal because they mislead customers about their rights. If you would like advice regarding your refund policy, contact the Office of Consumer and Business Affairs on (08) 8204 9777 or the nearest country office on 131 882.

In essence, a refund is in order if the goods:

* have a fault that the customer could not have known about at the time of the purchase
* do not do the job the customer was led to believe they would
* do not match the sample they were shown
* aren't as they were described.

Sometimes you may offer to repair, exchange or provide a credit note. However, the customer does have the right to insist on a refund. You may wish to check with the Office of Consumer and Business Affairs regarding a particular refund.