View Full Version : Service Seeking (photographers wanted)
http://www.serviceseeking.com.au/
The end is nigh....
keith-killer
03-07-2010, 10:12pm
I have seen a lot of global sites like this for graphic art etc. When you are competing against people in pplaces like India or China, who are just as talented as you, but have a much lower cost of living, you see big jobs going for peanuts.
No idea what this site is like, but you are at least in the photogrpahy section competeing against other Aussies, so you would presume there would be a limit on how low people would go to get a job... then agian maybe not. Seem to be a lot of jobs on there.
nothing ventured nothing gained
rwg717
03-07-2010, 11:59pm
http://www.serviceseeking.com.au/
The end is nigh....
It appears that the end is indeed nigh:confused013
Richard
So, average rate for a wedding photographer is $128 an hour
Most jobs advertised are $500 ish for a 3 hour wedding.....so....just take the shots and burn straight to CD and hand off - no pp, no care, no worries
So, average rate for a wedding photographer is $128 an hour
Most jobs advertised are $500 ish for a 3 hour wedding.....so....just take the shots and burn straight to CD and hand off - no pp, no care, no worries
I think that is about it. These sites will allow anyone with a camera to tender for work, and as we all know, people not making their bread & butter from photography are able to offer services at much lower rates. IMHO the only winner is the site owner, because they take $$ from everyone offering services regardless of whether you do or don't win any work, and they allow an unlimited number of service providers making you compete very heavily.
That's right - but - it's still interesting to see the number of apparently pro established wedding photographers bidding on the low end stuff
Must be dog-eat-dog out there
arthurking83
04-07-2010, 9:00am
Quote form Service Seeking:
We charge photographers a small fee to express interest in your needs, but you are not obligated to choose anyone if the quotes or photography businesses are not acceptable.
So, as a photographer, I'd be paying Service Seeking a fee to release my quote to prospective clients, but not guaranteed a result by them.
Why would I want to do that?
This seems to be a win-win situation only for Service Seeking! :p
If Service Seeking is going to act as my agent, I'd be wanting instant results... not long shot, prossible probabilities .... with a twist of maybe!
Well, someones got to pay mate....it's not going to be the advertiser as they are the hardest ones to attract
I think with time, any established operator will be competing so much and making so little from most of the work they win (if any) that they cease subscribing to the site.
soulman
04-07-2010, 9:35am
One of the problems with services like this is that they encourage people to shop only on price. That's fine if you're comparing like for like - a mass produced product is the same no matter where you get it or how much you pay - but when comparing services that actually vary a lot, they are not that useful. Consumers who look for quality do tend to be aware of this. It's worth remembering that price is only one of the many ways to differentiate your product from your competitors and that people who want the cheapest possible thing are rarely the kind of customers you want to have anyway.
H2OMotion
06-07-2010, 8:57am
One of the problems with services like this is that they encourage people to shop only on price. That's fine if you're comparing like for like - a mass produced product is the same no matter where you get it or how much you pay - but when comparing services that actually vary a lot, they are not that useful. Consumers who look for quality do tend to be aware of this. It's worth remembering that price is only one of the many ways to differentiate your product from your competitors and that people who want the cheapest possible thing are rarely the kind of customers you want to have anyway.
Soulman, I couldn't agree more. Sites and operators like "Service seeking" have been around, they've come and gone.
I think the main thing to put into perspective is "what are your images/photography" worth?
Photography is a reflection of yourself, your passion and your professionalism.
There will always be entities that base their jobs/work on price, it doesn't mean your standards or worth has to drop accordingly.
Sorry, I'm new to AusPhotography, just joined. But under-cutting, low-balling for images is my pet hate.
ricktas
06-07-2010, 9:20am
nothing different to stock libraries really. Only difference is that rather than selling a photo for peanuts, they are selling the services. Just another product being marketed in a different way on the net.
bigbaz
06-07-2010, 10:02am
Welcome to the future, as rick says, its just another marketing technique, and if that is what works for some people then great. It would be a great way to get some work for people starting out in wedding or event photography
Its all about price on Service Seeking. I tried quoting for a few jobs when I had free time and it was still free to do so. I never receive a single reply let alone a booking! There is no way I'd be paying them a service fee with no guaranteed work.
I think it may work better for the traditional handyman type enquiries, quite a few of the advertisers in that category had feedback, whereas none of the photographers I saw did indicating most likely the clients make the bookings elsewhere...
ricktas
07-07-2010, 10:02am
Its all about price on Service Seeking. I tried quoting for a few jobs when I had free time and it was still free to do so. I never receive a single reply let alone a booking! There is no way I'd be paying them a service fee with no guaranteed work.
I think it may work better for the traditional handyman type enquiries, quite a few of the advertisers in that category had feedback, whereas none of the photographers I saw did indicating most likely the clients make the bookings elsewhere...
The other thing is that I had never heard of them till Kiwi posted here. How can they match up services and clients, if people are not even aware of their website in the first place. I wonder what the ratio of professionals to clients is, on the site. In my experience, if someone wants a service, they google it, ask friends, or access yellow pages. If their website is not widely advertised, most of the public wouldn't even know to visit it.
There are 24000 businesses registered
It will go viral
Today's jobs in my area, FYI Small is < 500
Summary
3 New Leads (http://www.serviceseeking.com.au/my_provider_account/new_leads) were listed in the last 24 hours.
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Portraits Springwood Qld
Mal is ready to hire someone to do a Photography - Family & Portrait Photography job in Springwood. This is a Small job.
Description:
Hi I am interested in getting portraits taken of my husband and I - together and individual portraits, full standing and head shots. We'd like the photos taken against a white background for use as 'stock-like' photos on our website and printed literature - so need to be of good quality. We would like images provide on CD - no touch ups necessary.
View the full details of this job. (http://www.serviceseeking.com.au/jobs/79397)
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Garden Wedding Photography
John is ready to hire someone to do a Photography - Wedding Photography job in Logan Reserve. This is a Small job.
Description:
Professional photographer required to take quality photos of wedding for 90 minutes at Wedding gardens at logan Reserve on 18 Sept 2010. All photos to be digital and supplied to us on a CD/DVD (archive) so that we can print as we require. Also we would like a meeting at the gardens in July/August to discuss layout pictures etc Will consider additional options as seperate items.
View the full details of this job. (http://www.serviceseeking.com.au/jobs/79391)
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Baby Portrait
Belinda is ready to hire someone to do a Photography - Family & Portrait Photography job in Springfield. This is a Small job.
Description:
Looking for someone to take some nice, natural photos of my 5 month old baby girl. I do not require any prints, just some images on a CD, would like some colour and black and white. Am looking to get this done in the next couple of weeks.
View the full details of this job. (http://www.serviceseeking.com.au/jobs/79289)
Kiwi,
I really don't see what the big issue is with a site like this.
Regardless of the product/service... some people shop on price, and some people shop on quality.
If price was never an issue, everyone would drive a Mercedes Benz car, and live in a huge house, and they would all have some famous international wedding photographer lined up for their $200,000 wedding on a private island in the Carribean.
Unfortunately for some people, price is an issue, so while they might not be able to afford your hourly rate, they might find someone who is willing and capable to shoot photos for them for $50/hour.
IMO, most folks on here who aren't full time pro's would probably do some work on a Saturday for $250 to put towards a new lens or something like that. I would.
I'm all for people having a high self worth, but seriously would you turn down a $500 job for half a day's work, just because you don't want to devalue the photography profession? If you don't shoot it, someone else will. They might not be as good as you, or they might be better. But the way i see it is that you should treat every job the same, whether they are paying you top dollar, or you are doing a favour for someone. Thats how you increase the value of the photography industry.
Even after saying all that, you will never stop people advertising cheap photography services, and you will never convince the couple who only have $500 to spend on their wedding photos that your $3000 package is better for them.
As technology gets better and cheaper, lots of industries will go like this. My profession is already a long way down this path, and i've had to diversify and specialise, and for me it has yielded great results in a otherwise overcrowded market, yet people will still say it's too expensive, and their cousins friend can do it for cheap. Who knows.... maybe their cousins friend is better than i am, and in the end they get a great result at a price they could afford.
/rant
Brett
Watchamacallit
07-07-2010, 3:10pm
I think this job reflects your argument quite perfect Brett (I'm no expert on wedding prices btw, please don't hurt me...):
Vivian And Alex's Wedding
A small Wedding Photography job in Ormond, VIC
Description:
The service will last for approx 1-1.5hrs and the reception begins at 5PM and is a 2 course dinner (prob approx 3hrs?).
We are looking into getting a photograhper for her wedding, or even for a photo shoot of some kind either (day/s) before or after as a gift, as they cannot afford to hire one of their own. Perhaps some photos prior to the service and during?
Our budget is $300-$400 (not very large).
View Job Details (http://www.serviceseeking.com.au/photography/wedding-photography/79225)
I don't think this is completely unreasonable, feel it would just depend on expectation management for the gift their offering at their asking price. I know in my line of work it's a very similar business model - clients need things done, companies put in quotes for the work, client ends up picking best cost-benefit response and it's something they understand (generally...), so there is some form of expectation management already in place. If someone wants quality, they will most likely pay for it or pay what they feel is justified. If someone is on a strict budget, then they'd most likely just either find the cheapest option to fit their need or the best quality on that budget.
My 2c on the matter.
(Disclaimer - I am no protog, nor have the business know-how of the industry :P)
I would do that job for $400.
1 hour travel time
3 hours shooting at the ceremony/reception
2 hours of basic PP (skin smoothing, spot removal, minor adjustments), giving about 8 photos suitable for printing and framing
Remainder of photos burned to CD
A recommendation of where to get quality prints (not BigW)
Comes to $66/hour. Better than stacking shelves or mowing lawns for pocket money!
But, this assumes that i already have the appropriate equipment, and that i'm not relying on it as a primary method of feeding my family. I'm not factoring in a whole bunch of other expenses that come with running a business. It is based on not being a full time working pro photographerm which is the category I think the majority of folks on this website fall into
ricktas
07-07-2010, 3:37pm
It is based on not being a full time working pro photographerm which is the category I think the majority of folks on this website fall into
You are completely wrong with this statement! The vast majority of AP members are not Pro's
Watchamacallit
07-07-2010, 3:39pm
As with everything, it's situational like you said (have the gear? pocket money? etc). Your post on the breakdown perfectly describes what I was talking about - the expectation management side of these "contracts/quotes" the Service Seeking provides.
For some industries they provide the setup will work fine, aka I have a sink that needs fixing - no different to calling up plumbers. Some it can be a bit murky, which I think photography is under whilst others may not take off or have a slow growth rate on these sort of models.
Rick,
My sentence is correct...
It is based on NOT being a full time working pro, which is most people on AP.
ie: most people on AP are NOT full time working pro's..
Not wrong, possibly misunderstood though :D
ricktas
07-07-2010, 3:49pm
Rick,
My sentence is correct...
It is based on NOT being a full time working pro, which is most people on AP.
ie: most people on AP are NOT full time working pro's..
Not wrong, possibly misunderstood though :D
Oops, sorry, misread your comment
I can see how you would think that a 400 job is money in the back pocket
But I think then that you are ignoring the cost of the equipment to do the job properly, insurance, marketing etc that make doing any job profitable at the end of the day
So, add up all your actual costs, including your time and then work it out
But yes, you have 400 cash where you didn't have it yesterday
maccaroneski
07-07-2010, 8:39pm
But Brett, like me, would probably have that gear anyway even in the absence of the prospect of payment, so in one sense it's all profit...
Sure, I understand all those arguments.
But Brett, like me, would probably have that gear anyway even in the absence of the prospect of payment, so in one sense it's all profit...
Most of us 'amateurs' would take that $400 and buy another new toy.
I would save it until i had about 4 jobs worth and buy a used Nikon 24-70 f2.8.
Then i learn more and become a better photographer with increasing (albeit slowly) better equipment.
So i ask you Kiwi, how exactly is 'the end nigh' in this situation?
Seems like a win-win for the example client above, and me if i were to do that job.
It also wouldn't affect you, as you would never have bid on that job anyway because it wouldn't pay enough.
I just really can't see why that website is such a bad idea?
Because most of these jobs are worth a lot more than that advertised, and this auctioneering based mainly on low ball pricing ultimately drives down the price for all, including you, what's the next bottom line for a wedding, $200 ?
I really think if you take everything into account it's uneconomic, but that's each individuals choice
If you have the gear, and are good enough then don't undervalue your work, and if you charge it's work
maccaroneski
08-07-2010, 5:36am
But wouldn't the "economic" argument say that the market price for that particular level of service is determined by what a willing buyer pays to an able seller in an open market?
The Internet has made the idea of "couch surfing" a reality - there are plenty of sites where you can secure accommodation for your next holiday free on somebody's couch In a house the burbs. But I'm not sure that Mr Novotel is too concerned.
Maybe the site in question is creating a market rather than cannibalising one?
No, I think the market is always there and all this sort of thing does is reduce the $$$ for all involved
"I can get 10 pro wedding togs for 500 each"
Next year
"I can get 20 pro wedding togs for 300 each"
The consumer has therefore an expectation of cost, it trickles up to the medium and large jobs too
But yes it's your choice to bid, but the vast majority of those bidding aren't creating a sustainable business model and personally I believe it effects the industry that you want to be part of, or one that at least I want to
I've joined this marketplace as u like the concept of matching, I'm just exasperated on how many supposedly professional photographers (based on trading names and profiles) are bidding against each other on especially the low end wedding at low end prices
soulman
08-07-2010, 9:13am
The consumer has therefore an expectation of cost, it trickles up to the medium and large jobs tooI think this kind of thing is only true if your only selling point is price. I run a business in a market that has seen enormous growth (many new operators) and huge price drops over the past 12 months. Our prices have come down too, in line with our costs, but we are amongst the most expensive in our market and we are busier than ever. We sell on quality and our basic message is that you get what you pay for, which we firmly believe. We are able to demonstrate our value proposition to more than enough prospective clients. We turn work away.
People who sell on price have nowhere to go but down. There are a lot of guys in our industry who are making two tenths of bugger all and who will give up eventually. A lot of them will blame the market and say it was impossible to make a living on the tiny margins and so on. Meanwhile, we will be even busier and we will remain profitable.
A certain amount of people have always wanted cheap wedding photography. I'm not a young man and I can confidently say that there is nothing new here except the technology. When I was studying photography in the 70s, people were having these kinds of discussions. I guy I studied with entered the wedding portrait field and has been highly successful for decades. He sells on the quality of his work, which is outstanding. People see his stuff and they go, "wow, I want that!"
Where does all the money go in a wedding? To the vendors who can convince the couple that they have something of value to offer. Price shoppers are often the worst possible customers.
maccaroneski
08-07-2010, 11:24am
The consumer has therefore an expectation of cost, it trickles up to the medium and large jobs too
Further to Soulman's point, and although I am hesitant to overestimate the intelligence of the average consumer, lets hope for the sake of the industry that the expectation of cost includes a crucial concept "I can get 10 crap pro wedding togs for $500 each, but a good one will cost what it always did".
However even there I think we come to supply and demand - surely that as the barriers to entry are reduced for the suppliers, the number of good togs will increase, and as the demand does not keep pace with the supply, the price will come down. For me that is the nub of the whole "weekend warriors devalue the industry" argument.
Heck I got married ten years ago, and I bet I could find 5 weekend warriors on this site that would do as good (if not better) a job for $1k as the guy that did it for $3k back then.
EDIT: I mean as a photographer, although judging by the way that wife turned out, I'm sure I could find as many good applicants for that job here too (and cheaper) :)
its hard to "get better" $400 bucks at a time. to get better you need to spend more time at the shoot, more time learning professional pp'ing, more time learning professional lighting techniques, more time with clients eg 'eshoots,' more time finding the next client
and then you'll get to the point where you're pulling in $400 for a week while trying to get better = financial ruin. not gonna work. but weekend warriors will never understand this. its why so many aspiring photogs fail, no business sense.
take it easy
My rather simplistic view is that --
As motorists we love cheap petrol prices and will drive around the block three times to save $0.02 cents per litre.
As home owners looking to buy we love it when interest rates are down, house prices are in a slump and there is a general over supply of housing.
As photographers we have all embraced the internet and the grey market with open arms as it allows us to buy our desired equipment a bit cheaper than previously.
Is there any difference between the above scenarios and the average punter looking for a 'discount' photographer?
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