Anyone with a D3s in Brisbane?

[JorgD]

I am looking for somebody with a D3s in Brisbane (or close by, ie. Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast), that would allow me to have a look at the camera and try it out at their place. I don't want to borrow it :)

I have Canon gear and am thinking of switching to Nikon and rather than just paying $15k for a Nikon starter pack, I would first like to see the camera in action.

If you are not happy with divulging where you live, I would be more than happy to meet you at some neutral location. I anticipate I would not need more than 30 mins to take a few test shots and get a basic feel of the camera.

I went to PhotoContinental to have a look, but they only had the D3x there, so the basic shape of the camera will be no surprise to me :)

Please PM me if you are kind enough to spend a little bit of time with me to help me decide whether a switch to Nikon is what I need.

[dche5390]

You won't regret it. If we're comparing specs and real-world performance, the D3s is leading the pack. C'mon Canon. Get your act together!

[JorgD]

Well, I would be upgrading from a 7D & 40D, so I anticipate that the D3s would be significantly better. But having to buy a whole Nikon outfit probably does justify spending just a little bit of time to make sure I will be happy before laying down the cash :)

[ricktas]

why change from the 7D and 40D, both are very good bits of kit?

[bigdazzler]

im curious as to the reasoning for switching brands too ??

[JorgD]

There are a few reasons for my desire to get away from the 7D and give Nikon a go.

I seem to end up in a lot of indoor situations where flash is not permitted, like overseas museums, which unlike Australian museums, predominantly permit non-flash photography. I just returned from a 2 week China shoot, and the terracotta warriors were indoors, and many of their museums did not allow flash and I find that indoor temple shots look more natural without a flash anyway. The brightest lens I have is the 17-55 f2.8, and thus I ended up with thousands of shots at ISO 3200. Sometimes ISO 3200 was not fast enough, but generally it was. From what I have read, and this is something I definitely want to see myself, the D3s has less noise at ISO 3200 than the 7D. ISO 3200 with little noise is worth a lot to me. I also think the Nikon 14-24 f2.8 on a full frame sensor would be nicer than my 10-22 f3.5-4.5 Canon lens.

I also enjoy macro photography and thus like a large DOF. Due to the insanely small pixels of 18MP on a crop sensor and the inconvenient laws of physics called the airy effect, also know as the circle of confusion, anything smaller than f6.3 ends up being blurred as no matter what the camera does, it can't ignore physics and thus start spraying the light onto the adjacent pixels. The 40D worked fine up to and including f8 whereas the D3s should work fine up to f11.

And lastly, I find the 7D focusing inconsistent. I am at a point now where I take every shot 3 times so that at least 1 is sharp. Often the focus is just slightly off, but being in the habit now of taking 3 shots I would look at the first shot and go "yeah, that's fine" and then see the next one and go "wow, now that is sharp" and then go back and notice that the first one really wasn't all that sharp. Other times the focus is just way off and the photo is useless. It had occured to me that it could be user error, but considering I had not had any focusing issue with the 50k photos I had taken with the 40D the previous 2.5 years and never had a focusing issue for the last 25 years, I am making a rough guess here that it is the 7D. There really should be no reason that a shot taken at 17mm at 1/1000th of a second is blurred when I am standing on steady ground shooting a non moving subject with IS turned on. And considering I go click, click, click, 1 second apart and get varying results with each click, does not give me much confidence in the camera. I use the centre focus point only, as I don't want the camera to randomly focus on something other than what I want it to focus on. I even tried the ultra fine focusing point to no avail.

Now googeling for 7d focusing problems yielded interesting results. There is a small army of people out there finding the focusing inconsistent. DPReview even had a poll on how many people were having focusing problems and there were stacks of people complaining about focusing issues. I don't expect miracles, I just want the camera to focus on the centre point in single shot mode.

I rang Canon about this too, who asked me whether I was only having focusing problems when I use manual focusing, and after explaining to them that actually it was an automatic focusing problem they suggested I send the camera to them. I was informed it would take 5-10 business days. Well, I packed the camera up together with my 70-200 f4 L IS and a CD with 8 images on them, 4 pairs that were taken in succession, clearly showing in focus, out of focus, at 1/2000th of a second shutter speeds to discount blur.

6 weeks later, after 2 different technicians checked the camera out, they could find nothing wrong. They made no attempt at all trying to explain the photographic evidence on the CD or suggest anything what could have gone wrong.

I really am at a point, where I just want some gear that works. I don't see solving my 7D problem as my lifes vocation, as photography is only a small part of my life. It is a very enjoyable part, but I am not a professional, so really I just want some equipment that I can pick up, point and shoot where it focuses for me.

My wife suggested that maybe I should just buy another 7D, maybe it works better, but I don't really want to take the risk and it won't have better high ISO ability nor will its pixels be any bigger.

[ricktas]

great answer! It is amazing how often we see people change brands on AP cause they perceive their photos will be better with another brand, when really it is their own skills that need the upgrade, not the gear. Your reply says you have thoroughly investigated this and present sound reasons. Well done!

I hope someone can help you out with a trial of the Nikon.

[bigdazzler]

Best explanation and rationalization Ive heard for changing brands yet .. If your gear isnt working for you, go find something that will. Best of luck mate.

[kiwi]

You could always hire one.

I've a d3, happy to help but d3s has better iso by a stop

[inmotion]

HI I have one in Adelaide with heaps of lenses--flights are cheap--haha--jim

[JorgD]

Thanks for the offer there Kiwi, I will see if someone comes up with a D3s, otherwise I will probably take you up on the D3. As ISO is an important part of my decision, I really would like to see the D3s. I know trying a D3x would be pointless.

Focusing is another issue that I would like to see in action. Ie. point camera at tree, click, click, click and verify that all 3 shots look identical :)

I read a lot about how smart the 51 point AF is with tracking moving objects. Even though this is great, in all honesty, I shoot a moving object less than once a year, so that is not really a deal maker or breaker to switch to Nikon.

The way the colours are rendered is probably also another important point, because I found the 40D was generally way too blue and I spent a lot of time white balancing everything I took. I am pretty happy with the 7D colour rendition (I use DPP to convert RAW to TIFF and use the Faithful colour setting). So hopefully the colours on Nikon are life accurate.

[JorgD]

This is just a quick example of the ISO 3200 noise I have been getting indoors that I hope to improve on.

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/5972/warriori.jpg (http://img641.imageshack.us/i/warriori.jpg/)

and here at 100% magnification:

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/8048/warrior100.jpg (http://img710.imageshack.us/i/warrior100.jpg/)

[ricktas]

Do you use any noise reduction software. like noise ninja/neat image/ Nik d-fine?

Noise is inherent at high ISO's with any camera, even a D3s.

Here are a couple of reworks:

Ran Nik software D-Fine over the photo, and then some sharpening with high pass sharpen method
54194

Noise can also be used to your advantage. Converting to monochrome gives the noise a nice grain reminiscent of old black and white film
54195

[JorgD]

I occasionally use noise ninja, but I never heard of neat image or d-fine. I use DPP, which is Canon's RAW processor, to battle inherent noise in the image. I have a few presets which I apply dependent on the ISO I shoot at that gets rid of as much noise as DPP can without degrading the image quality by a visible amount. I then convert the RAW's to 16-bit Tiffs which I then further process in Photoshop and DXO.

This is all very time consuming and I had hoped for a better solution straight out of the camera that required less user intervention. Kinda like "click, ohhh, that is nice, no further work needed here".

I must admit, I am very impressed with your D-Fine rework of the image. Does it come with the camera like DPP does for Canons, or is it an after market product? I will have to investigate :)

The time consuming aspect of all this really struck home after a 2 week trip through the Antarctic 18 months ago. I spent 2 weeks down there and then around 500 hours white balancing and post processing the images I took down there. Due to other time commitments this meant it took me just over a year to have all the images sorted out. Ideally, if I go on a 2 week vacation, I would like to have presentable images within 4 weeks of full time work.

Thus a camera that produces acceptable colours, acceptable grain and sharpness right out of the box would be worth a lot to me.

This is what the image looked like with no DPP noise reduction.

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/5283/warriornoprocessing.jpg (http://img638.imageshack.us/i/warriornoprocessing.jpg/)

[kiwi]

Nik Dfine is a plug in

Based on your woprkflow requirements Id strongly recommend you look at Lightroom V3 that has really useful tools re RAW processing, WB and now very strong NR

Re D3s at 3200, my D3 at 3200 if exposed properly is effectively noise free.

Im sure that if you look at Fred Miranda or DP Review as two examples youll find loads of examples of both bodies at high iso

[kingwheatie]

Just a couple of D3s ISO samples

1.ISO 6400 1/250 @ f14, 500mm(300mm 2.8+ 1.7 TC) and CPL fitted
http://www.stuephotography.com/photos/910822976_8aZmF-XL.jpg

2.ISO 12,800 1/500 @f10, 500mm(300mm 2.8+ 1.7 TC) and CPL fitted
http://www.stuephotography.com/photos/910823151_2r7W5-XL.jpg

Only noise reduction was in camera, NR set to normal
I dont have any samples @ 3200 and as Kiwi pointed out getting a correct exposure really helps smooth the noise.

Have you looked at the latest Canon 1d as you already have some Canon glass, as these two cameras are pretty much head to head.

[JorgD]

@kingwheatie thanks for posting those images, they are very impressive ISO examples. As all my Canon glass is EF-S with the single exception of the 70-200 L, there really is not much that I would be keeping by going to a 1D.

@kiwi I had tried out the RAW converters from Lightroom, Photoshop, Bibble, ACDSee, DXO, PhaseOne and Canons own DPP and found that in my opinion the only converter that could produce colours I was even close to finding acceptable was the Canon DPP. I felt like the other people must have been colour blind when they created their interpretation algorithms. Finding the right RAW converter that kept the colours accurate was another one of my little 200+ hour projects where I converted a few hundred images with each of the converters with default and tweaked settings and then painstakingly compared each version of the same original created with the different converters.

Just to make sure I do actually see the colours correctly, I purchased one of Eizo ColorEdge professional monitors for $4k and the GretagMcBeth ProfileMaker with EyeOne calibration tool for another $3k. I really did not want to blame a program for being poor when the real problem was my consumer grade monitor calibrated with some cheap spider or some such.

Here is one of the focusing problem examples (I could post over 1000 more just like that from my recent China trip). The 2 shots were taken 1 second apart, single shot centre dot auto focus, 1/640th of a second with a 15mm lens in bright sunlight, hand held on non moving pavement. Neither shot was post-processed to introduce artificial sharpening or Gaussian blur :)

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/5554/img72157dblur.jpg (http://img37.imageshack.us/i/img72157dblur.jpg/)

and the next shot:

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/9106/img72167dblur.jpg (http://img37.imageshack.us/i/img72167dblur.jpg/)


Would you expect these results from a Nikon as being the norm that from every 3 shots you take, 2 are sharp and 1 is slightly blurred as shown here, or would this be a 1 in 1000 blur?

[nisstrust]

^ oww.. thats disgusting those out of focus images... so bitter is the pill of the Canon 7D in your instance.

You bring sound argument to your need for D3s, may you be blessed in your pursuit of tranquility. :D

Goodluck in your search.

[I @ M]

JorgD, that looks very far removed from ANY form of brand specific problem.

It must be a problem related to that one body surely as there seem to be plenty of satisfied 7D users out around who haven't had problems.

I think some more pressure applied to the Canon service department is in order rather than simply blaming the brand. :confused013

[JorgD]

I had thought about that Andrew, but I don't have much faith in their service department and I can see this going to take an inordinate amount of time of the camera going forwards and backwards, while spending weeks at a time with them while nothing happens. I rather have a camera here with me that works whenever I want to use it :)

The very first SLR I ever bought was a Canon. I lived in Mt Isa at the time, a small mining town in the Queensland outback. Within days of having the camera the lightmeter failed. It claimed everything was too dark and thus tried to take photos with an exposure of several seconds at a wide open aperture. Even when pointing the camera towards the sky, it was all too dark. Even taking the lens off, everything was too dark.

I took the camera back to the local store I bought it from, and the guy told me that it is covered under warranty and he would send it in for me. He was not interested in replacing it.

Several weeks later, the camera came back where Canon could not find anything wrong it. Amazingly the camera worked for a few hours before once again going back to the familiar "too dark" problem. The camera was returned to Canon.

Canon thought it may be a problem with my lens and thus asked that I send the lens in as well. I explained to them that it can't be a problem with the lens as the camera perceives everything as being too dark even when the lens is not connected to the body.

After several weeks I asked how their search for the problem was going. They said they were waiting for my lens. I sent them the lens.

After several more weeks they finally rang me and told me they found the problem. There was a hairline fracture on the circuit board and thus when the camera is cool, like in a lab, it works perfectly, but the moment the camera goes outside and warms up, it stops working. The solution was to replace the circuit board. Unfortunately Canon Australia did not store circuit boards here and one would have to be shipped from Japan and this would take 6-7 weeks. I was appalled that a brand new camera which never worked would now be away for another 6-7 weeks and asked if they would not be able to just replace the camera. They told me they could not do it. I asked if they could not fly the circuit board out to make it faster, but after a quiet chuckle I was told that this is a warranty claim and thus is shipped via the most cost effective way.

Well, in the end, about 6 months after I bought my first SLR, I finally got it and it worked ever since.

I really don't wish to have a similar experience with this 7D, considering Canon already could not find a problem after having the camera for 6 weeks with them, and I rather move on in life. From my googeling of 7D problems I am guessing that I am not alone here, but there are thousands of us with similar intermittent problems.

[I @ M]

I was having a think about this before and maybe, just maybe if you were to take the body (+lens) to an independent reputable camera repair facility and get them to verify in writing that a problem exists that you might then be able to go to the ACCC armed with Canon's report saying there is nothing wrong and
the independent repair places report saying there is a problem and seek some sort of satisfaction along the lines that the camera is not fit for sale as it doesn't work as expected.

Possible?

[etherial]

I said this in another thread...I've actually been very impressed with the performance of the 7D. I'm quite happy to let it go up to ISO3200. Must say though that LR3 is much better at handling what noise is there.

Edit: Those images you have posted are disturbing, there must be something wrong with it. Andrews idea is a good one. Maybe you could meet up with someone with another 7D and shoot the same subjects to see if there is a difference, then present that to Canon.

[etherial]

An example of ISO3200 from my 7D. Handheld indoors, F4 1/25s straight out of the camera as jpeg. The focus was on the closest horse (most of which is out of frame) by a focus and recompose shot. (Should have focused on the black one.)

http://etherialdesigns.smugmug.com/photos/910947354_ayu92-XL.jpg

[kiwi]

Everything Ive heard suggest that Nikon's service is probably worse than Canon. To get top service you probably need to be in CPS or NPS

LR's raw converter was rubbish, until you installed the specific camera profiles
LR3 is much better in this regard - you can download a free 90 day trial

Re focussing, I do sport, I get 95% in what I call critical focus. Just not an issue

Canon IDIV also very good here though I hear from my pro sport mates about the place