What are we doing wrong??

[Susan Ashworth]

I went into partnership with my friend and an amazing photographer earlier this year and whilst things are going ok for '6months in' i can't help thinking we are doing something wrong with our pricing packages.

In the past two months, we have had two couple's choose another photographer because we 'aren't offering enough flexibility' and because we are not offering high resolution CD's.

Our our prices unreasonable? Is our pitch wrong? Are our expectations too high for this stage in our business? :umm:

All advice appreciated. Our packages can be viewed on www.nouveauphotos.com.au.

(for what its worth, our website will be updating to a more contemporary look in the next couple of weeks)

[ricktas]

There will always be people that do not end up taking your packages. How often have you walked into a shop looking for something, not found it, so walked out and gone to the competition up the road? Why should wedding photography be any different.

All I could suggest is that whilst you cannot be all things to all people, maybe compartmentalise your packages.

Basic package $xxx
Mid range package $xxx
Top range package $xxx

Extra's (add on to package costs):

High Res DVD : $xxx
Wedding Album : $xxx to $xxx

This lets the couple chose their package and then the extras. Sort of like buying a new car, with or without a sun roof, 6 stacker cd player etc.

[I @ M]

Having a clear and concise website that doesn't have glaring spelling or grammar mistakes is a very good start to winning people over as well. :)




YBoth Photographers covering your special day

[kiwi]

To be frank (i like frank)

Free website reeks amateur photographers (it also took 30s+ to load, id have given up)
Your packages are not cheap, and as already said lacks details
Your website has a number of spelling errors
On one page you say you are budding photographers (doesn't give a lot of comfort)

I havent even looked at the photography

These things are easy to fix.

[kiwi]

The other thing is that I cant see anywhere on your site where you are actually located. Im not sure googliing "wedding photographers seymour" for example would ever find you

[arthurking83]

I thought you were Darren?.. well ok then.. be Frank if you insist :p

I noticed a reference to travel expenses and a travel allowance of up to 35klms radius.

35klms from where? the person home? your home? Seymour?

I'm with Darren Frank though.. the website took too long to load, free website designs can be good, and don't necessarily have to be made by professionals and don't have to be amateurish. Just be thorough(in your next website incarnation)

I have no idea on prices and whether they're high, but if people are shying away and goingt o the next store(so to speak) find out what the next store are charging/offering/giving away as incentives.. etc.

Not to sound demeaning in any way, but if your were in demand photographers, you charge what you like and people just pay to be photographed by that in demand photographer.

My thoughts are: and this is as an outsider observerant of how people in general(ie. the customer) views photography as a service!
They only want someone to supply the service of a camera operator, as an unbiased and experienced individual that can correctly capture a moment in time.
They don't care if you supply prints, They can get 'the same prints' for half the price from KMart!
They're not discerning enough to be able to see the difference between KMart prints and those of the expert photographic printing shop up the road. They only want cheap!
If the prints turn out crap they blame the photographer and then go to a better store(like the Kodak kiosk at Westfield shopping centre) and get those prints re printed and they possibly look 5% better.
They also don't realise that this has now cost them more than the high quality print offered originally, but to them this is not the point! they just don't want to pay twice as much as they can at KMart ... for mere prints!

Give them the hi res disk of images, and forget about giving out prints,and price yourselves according to that business tactic.

As a photographer(and I really hate this about the industry in general) your profit should come from taking photographs not prints. If you were also a printing business, then by all means, offer prints at whatever prices you want.

Just make a few strong recommendations on where to get prints done, and if they subsequently get them done at Battery World, because battery World have a buy one battery, get a photo print free offer, and they come back looking like a pre school finger painting, you explain to them that the strong recommendation you made was from experience.

[milesy]

some good points there arthur

[arthurking83]

I have to say too tho, my 'market research' involved/involves asking friends and family what it is they liked/disliked about getting photo sessions done 'professionally' and the same dislike is repeated over and over again.. the prints cost too much.

They'd prefer just to have the images on disk, where they can selectively print the images at whatever size they feel is appropriate, and having 10 8x10 images may either be too many or not enough(depending on the quality of the images).

Basically they want the majority of the images stored on their PC to be sued as screen savers :p

This is not detailed market research, and out of the 4million residents of the Melbourne and metropolitan areas, I reckon I've spoken to 10 people.. well ok .. maybe 11!
That's 'good enough for me to know, that if I ever did photography as a professional caper, I know how to market my services.

of course there are some people that can be swayed into whatever the salesperson is capable of doing, and having dipped my toes in the salesperson industry for a very limited number of years(running my fathers wholesale food distribution business for 4 years) I know I'm not a salesman type, and I prefer the product to sell itself.
I reason that it leaves me more time to work(physically work) on getting a better quality product, rather than having to spend time on pushing/selling the stuff in the first place.
I used to tell my customers that this is not what you want. I could get them what they wanted next week if they wanted that. Some did, other didn't, but I never wasted time selling stuff

If it's flexibility, prices, or a particular product that customers want, then you should listen to that 'market research' and do something about it.

[Susan Ashworth]

Thanks everyone for your detailed and well thought out answers. I will be taking all if this back to my partner for discussion. We both know that we need to change our structure, but really don't know what way to go. :(


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[hoffy]

OK, I'm going to put a different slant to this.

In your initial statement, you said that you are doing OK 6 months in. How do we interpret this statement? Are you saying that business is strong? Or is it just enough to make ends meet? Do you feel that you need to be getting more customers? Is the lack of selling images on CD a business choice or an artistic choice?

While I can see why people may want a CD of high res images, I also see that if you are someone who may care about prints and the ultimate final output, letting go of that aspect would be hard, especially in the arena you are in. Nothing could be worse then selling your images on CD, only to have them printed via a low quality printer (and heaven forbid on someones $100 home inkjet printer). That could actually be damaging to business.

But then again, I am probably a dinosaur......

[Longshots]

I dont want to sound harsh, but maybe the question you should be asking yourself is what are you doing right ?

You've asked a really good question, so without back slapping, or ego warmiing, I'll just give you some direct, and honest advice.

First things first - where is your abn, and why is your business name registered? Certainly one of your two names you use is registered - but you would want to hope its you thats registered it, because if it isnt, you might get yourselves in a crap load of trouble. One hopes and trusts, that you have all of the other areas covered, like public liability insurance, etc etc.......

Without that, and as has already been said some proper contact details, a proper website - you come across as two "Mums who have cameras". Unfortunately, the rise in this area has literally been meteoric. You need to make yourselves apart from the sea of all the other people trying to do the same thing.

Flexibility - you have none listed. Stating that you can be talked to for free is again a negative

About yourselves section - hardly inspires me. Look I'm sure its all very nice that you go back to your family and loving husbands when you're both not behind the camera, but I suspect, and know that your prospective clients are going to be seeking a little more confirmation that you love what you're doing and are passionate about achieving the very best quality, and are even perhaps hugely creative.

It seems to me that you're expecting good prices for your work, but you dont show a great deal of quality work to support it I'm afraid. Basic flash on camera shots just dont cut it, I'm afraid. "Dare to be different" is good in words, but not supported in any of the images you're displaying. Why show so many shots from one family's portrait shoot ? I'd certainly suggest showing more scope. And I'd nto show images where you have accidental things growing out of the tops of their heads - trees, caravans etc... Its a small point , but I'd also reshoot one of the two portraits of yourselves, as Keno's looks very nice, but looks more like you would be on the other end of the camera, and not behind it. At the moment, the work you're displaying doesnt appear to justify the type of costs you're seeking.

Now that doesnt mean that you shouldnt be looking for that type of costs, because, (knowing what is involved) if you you dont charge that type of costs, you are not going to have a sustainable or viable professional business.


By the way, the same thing applies for your second website/business.

Again why show only one set of images all of the same female ?

Again no ABN, no business name registered in your state.

Again good prices, but not good examples of work

I hope that helps and you dont take it personally.

[Erin]

Sorry darl, I couldn't even get past the loading screen. Wix is slooooooow.

Apart from the other comments above (all sound advice even before you pick up a camera), invest in some proper hosting. There's lots of good Aussie and OS webhosting services and it's certainly easy enough to set up galleries and such or find someone to do that for you for a few hundred - yes, you gotta spend money to make money.

[Susan Ashworth]

Hmmmm again I would like to thank all posters for your honest frank advice. I've not been able to get that from any other source. Hence we are in our current situation.

I think that Erin has named the biggest part of our problem. 'to make money you have to spend money.' we have little or no money to spend. We've not been able to afford to get business advice. We do have an ABN, but did not think that we needed to display it as we are earning well below the 75K cut off.

We are currently setting up a site throught photomerchant, but don't want to launch it until we have it perfect. (mistake we made with wix). It looks much more streamlined and will be photography focused not photographer focused.

Do you think businesses can succeed without having 1000's of dollars to set them up?


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[Longshots]

yes to your last question.

and if you're interested I'd be happy to offer some one on one advice if you want to give me a call

[flash]

I've read your question and looked at the answers, I will look at your website but as a small business operator myself (in excess of 30 years, specialist tungsten tool sharpening) I can offer you a wee bit of advice, be professional at all times, promise, and deliver the world, be prompt courteous and punctual, offer alternative multi layer flexible pricing, have an up to date portfolio with a good client base and wave it around, state you are the best at what you do and are very flexible I.E. willing to undercut the opposition and go the extra mile, instill and exude confidence the customer comes first last and foremost, people dont want wording like "budding, rising, starting out" they want "in the business for x amount of years" with a very happy and extensive client base, professional at every turn, look, act dress, advertise "professional", you dont get a second chance at a first impression and with wedding photography the client wants only the best, dont mention travel, tuck it in the pricing and discuss it carefully when the wedding is booked, maybe an "extra's" column, maybe no charge would be appropriate if the opposition is charging??, I charge for pick up and delivery as well as assembly/disassembly of machinery but this is never discussed at the initial consult, only when going through the account in detail, be sure all spelling and grammar is in place, if you cant spell the automatic assumption is you cant photograph either, professionalism at ALL levels, you are selling yourself and you must be trustworthy to entrust such a special occasion to, it's a cutthroat business and there is no reason why the client should choose you over any one else is there, well make them believe there is! make them see you are the best choice or go broke

[Longshots]

We do have an ABN, but did not think that we needed to display it as we are earning well below the 75K cut off.


Many people get confused between an ABN and registering a business NAME. They are two different things. Its often discussed, and its always misunderstood. At the moment you would definitely have to register your business name. Which unless its you that's registered it, you may run into trouble as the name is already registered in Victoria.

There is a huge amount of free business advice from various state departments,and in Queensland (where I'm from), the place I had to register my business name, helpfully provides a huge amount of free business advice.

[kiwi]

To add to what William says, tax rules are another matter again aside from abn and your name registration. For that you should talk to ato and/or accountant

Also do take the opportunity to talk to William, that's a resource to utilisise if offered for sure

[Nator]

Others have said it above, but please spell check the crap out of your website. Words like 'hours' should be spelled correctly.

Secondly... and i may be thinking somewhat differently to others here, why not just give your clients all of their images (high-res) on a disk? I know you make some money from offering prints etc, but you are starting out, struggling to get clients... why not give them what they want. It's a few bucks for DVD's to burn all their images on to.

One thing that i always wonder about is the longevity of peoples photography business and how clients might get high quality prints in the future.

For example, a good friend of mine who was a photographer was recently killed in a motorcycle accident. His previous clients will have little opportunity to get any high quality prints in say 12 months time. His wife will probably not feel compelled to hold onto that data for too long, and is also unlikely to go hunting after former clients to give them their data.

You might stick it out for a few years, then decide not to do the photography thing anymore... are you planning on keeping 500GB of old client wedding photos for the next 10 years?

You might have some horrible computer crash and lose absolutely everything. How will your client get her high-res wedding photos reprinted then?

I feel that if you are selling prints and not providing the negatives/files then you have an obligation to have those things available for your client for a certain time period incase they want more prints.

Giving away the CD for free, or low cost puts the preservation power back on them.

Phew.. that got long and soap boxy...

Anyway, my suggestions, apart from what above posters have said in regards to business names etc:

1. Fix your website, fix spelling, only show your best images, spend some time getting your content worked out so people know exactly what you are all about, and where you are etc. Light grey text on a white background doesn't work for lots of people.

2. Create new packages. The people who might spring for your $800 package are not going to pay an extra 25% for photos on CD, some other photog will do that for free... you lost a client :( Your terms are confusing in regards to CD available for $200 after $200 of prints purchased. Confused me for a while.

3. Get better email addresses. Hotmail or Gmail is not a good look.

4. go to http://www.zarias.com/category/critique/ and watch a few critique videos, then do an honest assessment on your own site and see how you feel then.

good luck.
brett

[AndreaB]

I find your priceing list hard to understnad. I was asking myself when you offer the disc, if it meant you can buy the cd for X amount if you spend even more then your package, which to me seems rediculous, and it;s not very clear.

Check out other wedding photographers sites, see how they explain their packages, and go from there to get a clear understandable description of what you are offereing. Plusif PPl want high resolution disc, decide what each image is worth, and go from there.

[wattsgallery]

I would echo the points above (I really don't think you have been critical enough with yourself/partner in looking at the site).

This thread is an extremely valuable one (not just for the OP but for anyone in or thinking of starting a business). It is thoughtful advice from experience that adds amazing value and this is a great testiment to AP.

[rellik666]

Can't really help, but just wanted say how wonderful it is to see so much helpful, knowledgable and sensible advice. What a wonderful place AP is!

Roo

[Longshots]

Hi Susan - hope the phone call helped :) ?

[OzzieTraveller]

G'day Susan

Like others, I have followed this thread with interest
I admire you for posting the question in the first place - to open one's self like this is a very brave thing to do

And also if I may add my 2-bob's worth ... the old saying "work smarter, not necessarily harder"
Your skills are/appear to be your photography & your organising (of events etc)

>> May I therefore suggest that you do the camera work, give 'em the CD and walk away from the job
>> Give them a standard pamphlet for commercial printing - both pro & retail and let them do what they want with your images
>> Tidy up your web site - on my laptop many colours & fine details are visually illegible - it doesn't help you get business
>> Keep smiling & keep trying

Hope this helps a bit
Regards, Phil

[Sammi]

One thing i would like to point out is your wording for the portait packaging is gonna cut your throat, some familys consist of 5 or more, limiting your portraits to 4 people and if there are more will incure a fee will have people looking elsewhere.

speaking from a family of 5's point of veiw here . if i seen that on a photographers site i would go looking elsewhere

[davearnold]

What a great thread... very informative... answered questions, I did not know I had.. .. even if I never set up a photography business which I had considered a possibilty for the future, I am more educated for reading this...and a big thanks to Susan for her post that started it.

[Topgunn]

Can't really help, but just wanted say how wonderful it is to see so much helpful, knowledgable and sensible advice. What a wonderful place AP is!

Roo

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