View Full Version : Wedding Pricing Query?
Dylan & Marianne
12-05-2010, 1:20pm
My wife and I often wonder if what we are charging is appropriate for what we provide to a bride and groom on the day.
Our 'package' includes
- 2 photographers for the day : one to shoot the bride preparation, another for the groom
- Photographs of the ceremony, locations, and reception.
- If they provide us dinner we take $100 off the cost.
- We will stay at the reception usually until the bridal waltz.
- There is no other supporting staff, just the 2 of us and occasional interested friends who want to shoot as an additional unofficial tog.
- Afterward, we give them all reasobable photos/proofs on a CD that are 1100 long edge and 100 dpi (ends up being 600-800)
- They choose to 150 which we give them at 300dpi, original size, for large printing and try to accomodate any PP requests (eg. fix my hair in this shot, remove that car there etc).
- We only provide prints at request as an additional cost. We dont offer an album.
I've posted some of the examples of weddings we've shot (admittedly still a skill in evolution) for the quality (we give a link to examples of our previous work in galleries on our website). I don't rate ourselves as being glamour photographers -and that is what we tell our clients.
We both have day jobs that support photography as a hobby and most of our work has been through word of mouth spreading from friends / friends of friends etc. In other words, what we actually get paid does not impact on our viability to do the weddings - we're only limited by how often we can actually shoot one due to work constraints.
As a ballpark figure, what would you be expecting to pay for that kind of 'service'
$1500 from what I see "around" would be fair
I would expect dinner, I wouldnt discount also.
Im not really a wedding photographer, but, I have been doing quite a bit of research of late
JM Tran
12-05-2010, 1:52pm
Dont know why you would take $100 off if being fed
the client has a duty of care towards you, either by common sense or specified in your wedding contract - you cannot expect to work a 12 or 10 or 8 hr shift and not get fed.
granted, you can go buy your own food or BYO, but where would you eat it, sit in the car during the reception? or drive off somewhere to get food and definitely will miss out on some crucial moments? It looks unprofessional for you to eat alone, and the client should be aware of that too.
I always expect to be fed, and I make sure they know it. Just like my commercial shoot in Melbourne next weekend - airfares paid for, hotel room paid for, transfer to and from airport organized etc. If someone wants your service they should be prepared to have a certain sense of duty of care:)
I would charge around $2000, as you are providing 2 photographers and not just 1.
Dylan & Marianne
12-05-2010, 2:08pm
=0 thanks for that info about the dinner - we are clearly newbies in the field :P
I'd have to think Jackie is closer to the mark with pricing. I have not heard of anyone providing 2 photographers for $1500 with or without the supply of prints.
Out here, they won't even talk to you for less than $3000 and that is for 1 photographer, a few prints and they will minimise their time spent doing the gig by getting you to do a mock first dance and cake cutting so they can get the pics and leave. The 2 who are doing weddings here have such a captive market, and they price so that if you think of flying someone in from Bris/Syd etc, it is no cheaper once you pay the airfares, accommodation etc.
I agree in that in the bigger cities there is a lot more of the $500 burners in the market
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$2000 to $2500 at least but you have to find where you fit in your local market...
James T
12-05-2010, 4:08pm
You price what people are willing to pay for your service.
With two photographers, but no album, etc. and limited processing by the sounds of it.. I'm with Jackie, start around 2K. Anything less split between two of you can't be leaving you much room for profits.
Dylan & Marianne
12-05-2010, 6:31pm
thanks for the input all - we're lucky in that we're not really in it for the profit as such - but by the same token we don't really want to be seen as cheapskates lol
in 2006 our wedding photographer cost us around $2K. Only one photographer but there was some creative PP used and we got a book but that was at a discount because she was only just starting to offer the wedding book as an option. We chose her because she offered the best value for money. Some places were at least $3K. This was in Newcastle. Not that I would call myself a photographer (just a mug with a camera) but if I was developing pricing I would check everyone else in your area and compare what you are offering and at what cost and I would potentially charge a little less then the "competition" in order to keep your "not in it for profit" ideals.
Please feel free to ignore as this is only my humble opinion.
Cheers
Danny
Dylan & Marianne
12-05-2010, 7:17pm
danny, I think you hit it on the head - that's kind of our approach really
What would you charge to shoot my wedding next year here in Bris? We will give you both a feed at the reception:D
Dylan & Marianne
12-05-2010, 8:12pm
What would you charge to shoot my wedding next year here in Bris? We will give you both a feed at the reception:D
er, no idea phil ! we've never been flown anywhere for a wedding! willing to try new experiences though hehe
er, no idea phil ! we've never been flown anywhere for a wedding! willing to try new experiences though hehe
Im sure you will in the future as you both certainly have a gift. Thought I would throw it in there to give you something to think about.
I'm not experienced in the area. But...
I think $2k5 - $3k is a starting point and reasonable for the service.
It's the 'employer' that's responsible for providing adequate working conditions, not the client. Therefore, if you and your wife have set up a company or proprietorship, it's that organisation that's responsible for charging airfares, meals etc. If you're individually contracting for the wedding, it's most likely the couples'.
Base your costs on a minimum $70 per hour say, work out the hours you're working on the job, plus expenses, post-wedding cost etc to get a reasonable price. My very guestimated costs would see a minimum of $3k. This would be based on: airfares (say 700 for you both), wedding and reception time (1000), meals (say $200), post-processing and general image transfers etc ($500), planning and organising ($500), equipment costs ($500).
Make sure you cover those operating costs, capital costs, your own time, and some profit.
Local pro
http://www.sheilasissonsphotography.com.au/Wedding-Prices-pg1064.html
Dylan & Marianne
12-05-2010, 9:43pm
nice link darren - interesting 1500 for 3 locations, 5 hours - and 150 photos - I wonder what kind of album it is to charge only a few hundred dollars more.
If you research your locals most of the lower end ones ( no offence to you meant) are very public about their pricing
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JM Tran
12-05-2010, 9:58pm
If you research your locals most of the lower end ones ( no offence to you meant) are very public about their pricing
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hahahaha I have to agree with that Darren:)
I just finished a wedding client meeting, signed and done and richer tonight. I didnt even reveal my pricing until near the conclusion of the meeting after 1.5 hours. If a client wants your service, they dont even need to ask how much first before we commence a meeting and making small talk and jokes. :D
Ahh, if they have to ask me about my price, they obviously can't afford me
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Dylan & Marianne
12-05-2010, 10:04pm
no offence taken ! we're small fry and we know it -I just wanted to get an idea for small fry fees especially from those in the buisness
DAdeGroot
12-05-2010, 10:11pm
I think, based on what people are banding around here, that I'm undercharging, but not by too much, so that's ok, it *is* Brisbane after all.
Similar service to what I offer Dylan, two photographers, 4 - 6 hours coverage, 350-600 images on CD, PP, etc. Cheapest I've done (mate's rates) was $990, most quotes come in just shy of $2k (i.e. $1990ish).
What would you charge to shoot my wedding next year here in Bris? We will give you both a feed at the reception:D
Why fly someone in, when I'm much more local :P
I think, based on what people are banding around here, that I'm undercharging, but not by too much, so that's ok, it *is* Brisbane after all.
Similar service to what I offer Dylan, two photographers, 4 - 6 hours coverage, 350-600 images on CD, PP, etc. Cheapest I've done (mate's rates) was $990, most quotes come in just shy of $2k (i.e. $1990ish).
Why fly someone in, when I'm much more local :P
I'm more local than you even, lol
I have three weddings booked this year, so, it's a good discussion for me too
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And 95% of the wedding photographers I know would give birth to a litter of puppies if you dared mention "providing CD of images". HUGE no-no in some circles or it's a yes that comes at a massive cost. Me, personally, my opinion of that matter was formed when I was planning my wedding. I wanted the CD of images and had to search accordingly. AND... price was also considered and asked. I hate that "if they want my service they'll pay anything" attitude, nothing shits me more. I fired an egomaniac photographer and the guys I hired after him made our day so much fun.
Anyway, for what you're offering, I would definitely start charging $2K upwards. Don't discount based on food, it's unprofessional. Do basic PP but do special edits (the requested stuff) at cost.
JM Tran
12-05-2010, 10:43pm
And 95% of the wedding photographers I know would give birth to a litter of puppies if you dared mention "providing CD of images". HUGE no-no in some circles or it's a yes that comes at a massive cost. Me, personally, my opinion of that matter was formed when I was planning my wedding. I wanted the CD of images and had to search accordingly. AND... price was also considered and asked. I hate that "if they want my service they'll pay anything" attitude, nothing shits me more. I fired an egomaniac photographer and the guys I hired after him made our day so much fun.
Anyway, for what you're offering, I would definitely start charging $2K upwards. Don't discount based on food, it's unprofessional. Do basic PP but do special edits (the requested stuff) at cost.
I provide a DVD of all images processed and edited from the day, except for duplicates and bad shots which I dont consider making the cut. I do not believe in giving only a selection or sell per photo - in the film days you had to as digital archiving did not exist so cheaply. I dont believe in trying to squeeze more in after-wedding sales and I dont need to. Once I am done with your wedding I dont want u coming back to me 3 or 6 or 12 months later to order more prints. Its not fair for you.
I hate that "if they want my service they'll pay anything" attitude, nothing shits me more. I fired an egomaniac photographer and the guys I hired after him made our day so much fun.
Well I am not egotistical. Sometimes arrogant, cocky yes definitely. Because I know I am good and can deliver the end product better than the client will expect, and always maintain a good rapport with clients and becoming friends with many afterwards, weird at first but it shows how a relationship can be established.
But is it wrong for me to say that if they want my services, they will pay for it and not worry about price? I dont cater for the low to mid range market, clients know that just from looking at my work, otherwise they wouldnt arrange a meeting with me in the first place. My work looks polished and expensive, because it is expensive. This is not ego coming out, its the brutal honest truth.
ScottM
12-05-2010, 10:47pm
Good points above: the post-processing, or at minimum, the time to prepare and burn the respectable ones to a CD is a consideration. I only considered part of that cost in my estimates.
Wish I could find the quote for my wedding - which didn't go ahead. Five years ago, and with a basic album, I think it was about $1700. Given digital speeds things up a bit, they're not much into post-processing or follow-on work, value-adding with an album etc, I'd think $2500 is a reasonable starting point to cover costs and make a bit of money.
That also seems to be in the order of what others are suggesting.
Make sure you include the costs of getting the job. That often adds up to a few hours work. Isn't that why you're here? :)
Good luck!
ScottM
12-05-2010, 10:54pm
Oops, meant to mention...
As Erin said, copyright is an issue.
Most photographers generally maintain copyright of the images, including when contracted for weddings. Professionally, I've found more the opposite way - ie when contracted for a job, the contractee owns the copyright of anything developed within the terms of the copyright.
I'm not sure this is a significant issue with you as you're handing over digital images that the couple may or may not adjust or have printed as they want, but the ownership should be specified in the written agreement you reach with them. Whether you include such an budget allowance depends on whether you think you might be able to re-sell the images. Can't comment on that, as it's dependent on the couple and your skill :)
JM Tran
12-05-2010, 10:57pm
Oops, meant to mention...
As Erin said, copyright is an issue.
Most photographers generally maintain copyright of the images, including when contracted for weddings. Professionally, I've found more the opposite way - ie when contracted for a job, the contractee owns the copyright of anything developed within the terms of the copyright.
I'm not sure this is a significant issue with you as you're handing over digital images that the couple may or may not adjust or have printed as they want, but the ownership should be specified in the written agreement you reach with them. Whether you include such an budget allowance depends on whether you think you might be able to re-sell the images. Can't comment on that, as it's dependent on the couple and your skill :)
thats a good point Scott, even if a photographer states in the contract that the rights belong to him or her, technically and by Australian laws the images and rights and ownership belong to the client. Hence I dont want them coming back to me, and this is one of those reasons - as I dont really have the right to keep their photos from them and charge more after.
My wedding photographer last year (who is an award winning quality photographer) last year started his packages from $1790 which included just the ceremony & location work, colour/B&W/any digital effect, proof images (digital or paper) plus a designer Mark 4 30x40 album with 12 sides (including the prints).
The packages went up from there. The high res images were available for an additional cost ($490, and got cheaper with the more expensive packages).
I spoke with him recently, and he says he now include the digital images with all of his packages. He's upped the cost of his packages a bit as well as the individual print price to compensate. He said that unfortunately that's what he has HAD to do (include the high res). People these days expect it, and if you dont offer it, people will often look elsewhere, even if the cost of buying it ontoop of the package worked out cheaper than elsewhere anyway. People just like to see that high res are included.
I personally think he is way too inexpensive for what he does. The quality of the prints and the album is very high, and the work he does is nothing short of highly professional. (He's done alot of photojournalism and photographed many celebs too). He changed half of what others in our local area are charging. I personally ended up paying an extra $500 for our album as the 16 sides (I got a different package) I had was not enough for the photos I wanted in the album! LOL And I was ruthless when going through them too.
ScottM
12-05-2010, 11:58pm
I think everyone's mentioned really good points JM, in terms of your costs, copyright, ownership.
I think you're definitely approaching things the right way. You really do need to cover your costs, consider future opportunities, add a reasonablue cost for your equipment and time.
My experience is mostly in IT, but developing systems for clients. They've ALMOST ALWAYS maintained ownership of the copyright. In some cases I've been able to 'open source' generic components, but it's usually where the client has agreed, and the results are 'generic'. In ownership of 'IP' - intellectual property - photography and software development are surprisingly similar when the reasons, output and outcomes have the same _objectives_.
Seriously, don't sell yourself short. Do consider the long-term implications - ie sometimes to get the job knowing there are long term advantages, giving prices close to your actual costs is beneficial. But really consider _objectively_ if they are long term advantages rather than just the one client. And possibly 'value-adding'. In this case, if they'd pay for some of your time to post-process the images yourself and have you manage creating the album.
Make sure your quote does include covering your costs, allow more to pay your personal obligations (eg mortgage etc), add a bit more, and try to sell a bit more again.
If your quote is reasonable, ie competive, they like samples you've provided, and you offer a service more than just the actual event, you stand in good stead.
Most important is to cover your costs, professionally and personally. It will help doing this as a couple.
I'm not on the mainland, am pretty isolated, and personally non-competitive, but $2500 would appear a reasonable starting point.
And hope you don't blame me :) Covering costs with nothing further only gets you so far....
TEITZY
13-05-2010, 12:53am
For 1 photographer, full coverage and images on DVD, I reckon $1500 minimum to cover your cost and time. If this was your sole source of income you'd have to charge $2500+.
Cheers
Leigh
Dylan & Marianne
13-05-2010, 6:04am
wow, great stuff everyone - I'm afraid I can't add much more to the discussion except that I reckon people do go to photographers with a budget in mind and if they're not willing to spend big bux, they probably wouldn't even be approaching those who offer high end type packages. (opposite for the other way round)
Marianne booked our photogapher 18 months in advance because she really liked his style
He started at 8am, shot the whole day until the mock set ups at the reception until about 630pm
Gave us about 400 proofs and low res images, 2 8X10 and one canvas print and an good quality 36 page 12"X12" album,
Total cost was 2900 - which, looking at pricing nowadays, seems a pretty reasonable deal. We were very pleased with the result and the whole process (even though it took us 3 years to get the album done !)
He is definitely professional and confident and is shouting us a dinner in June some time lol (ended up talking to him for hours about photography and the buisness of it while doing our album)
Just on the copyright issue, my understanding is that if you have a contract resuming copyright then that's the end of the matter.
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Dan Cripps
13-05-2010, 1:47pm
we're lucky in that we're not really in it for the profit as such - but by the same token we don't really want to be seen as cheapskates lol
Pricing certainly takes on a much more serious angle when it's your mortgage payments, food on the table and the kid's school fees riding on the decision.
Dylan & Marianne
13-05-2010, 1:54pm
Pricing certainly takes on a much more serious angle when it's your mortgage payments, food on the table and the kid's school fees riding on the decision.
Agreed - which is why we're not going to be giving up our day jobs in a hurry
Dan Cripps
13-05-2010, 2:13pm
Agreed - which is why we're not going to be giving up our day jobs in a hurry
Perhaps when you're formulating your pricing you can lend some consideration to those of us who already have!? :cool:
Zeke
I doubt whether that's a consideration for most weekend warriors. I'm not even certain it should be ?
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Dan Cripps
13-05-2010, 3:26pm
Zeke
I doubt whether that's a consideration for most weekend warriors. I'm not even certain it should be ?
No, it doesn't have to be - but it's a nice thought.
$0 - pity
$500 - delusional about ability
$1500 - cheap but good
$ 3000 - experienced weekender
$5000+ - wedding pro
$10000+ delusional about ability
???
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As an exercise I searched out a lot of togs in the Brissie area, and checked on their wedding packages, what they included and what they charged. And I was really surprised how many of them undervalue what they do for the time, on the day and the post production time.
I saw somewhere that a tog set his value at between 200 and 250 hour, and costed according to the hours that he would be involved for the wedding, pre, at and post. So if he spent 8 hours for the wedding and 3 hours for the post production, he should be charging about $2200.00 and if he had a 2nd tog, an hourly assistant rate should also be charged. I think that this is fair. I know some are starting out and don't want to feel like the are overcharging, but you do not want to undervalue yourself.
I think that with the digital age and the ease with which processing many images can be done, along with the relative low cost to buy a DSLR these days, the door has been opened for many a want to be wedding photographer to get some kit and start charging people to shoot their weddings, especially without having to give up a day job to do it.
Anyone with $1500 can set up. It certainly doesn't mean they will be good or bad photographers, of course, you will get a mix, but one thing is for sure, and that is in areas where there is a saturated market like the major capital cities and larger regional areas, the weekend warriors are chewing into the fat of the professional photographer every weekend. What once was a ransom item, like CD/DVD with the Hi-res images costing many hundreds on top of standard packages is essentially an expectation item and at no additional cost for most I imagine.
The hourly $ return these days must be so much less than it was even 5 years ago for all but the prestige and well established shooters. Thing is that $ can be had as cream money for many people and as already mentioned they often charge (and publish openly) very low prices as it is their way of winning business in a competitive market. These low cost shooters are growing in number all the time, so there is clearly a market for budget wedding photography. I have no desire to get into it myself, shot 1 for a friend, and was a terrible experience that I couldn't be bothered doing again(not skilled enough either to charge for the privilege) but I have no doubt that if I were offering $1000 "No Frills" packages, I would have more work than I could actually do given the low standard/high cost shooters already operating here.
Dylan & Marianne
17-05-2010, 5:25pm
My wife and I do spare a thought for the professional wedding photographers out there. That being said, our clients are mostly friends of friends/relatives and they don't expect us to provide anything more than a the service stated.
We're not out to undercut the professionals out there.
We're not out to become the next Jerry Ghionis
I think what I've got from this discussion is a rough market value for what my wife and I provide.
If I were to have my time again and arrange our wedding, I'd still go for the professional photographer we went with and have the album and other things that go with it. There seems to be a market for both and I think it'd be a rare case that a couple who want a certain package, all of a sudden ditch the professional to go for the weekend warrior shoot and burn who happens to be cheaper.
Let the weekend warriors fight it out amongst themselves!
I think the distinction between weekend warriors and F/T photographers chasing the wedding segment is becoming further blurred all the time. Many of the P/T wedding operators are setting up good portfolios, strong and professional web presence and some marketing thrown in for good measure, often giving the perception that they are professional F/T photographers. I hazard a guess many clients wouldn't know they do the gig part time when they decide to make enquiries with a photographer.
The tools and the associated costs to look professional are fairly cheap these days and I would think that many prospective couples look to the web for their photographer. Basically exposure is cheaper than it has ever been, and financial pressures on couples (particularly young ones) who own or are saving to buy a house etc force people to seek cheaper alternatives, which, these days there are so many of. Clients would usually still pay full tilt pricing if they had to, but with the abundance of part time operators out there they never have to, so many won't.
If I were doing it, I would have no consideration for what slice of the pie I could be taking from F/T professionals. It is like alot of industries, there is a free market and supply and demand decide who makes $. If I were good enough to charge for the work, I have as much right to my piece of the pie as any F/T operator.
The local race club here have a F/T photographer who attends alot of the local sports functions and the local race meetings and they are contracted to the local newspaper. I attend sports functions and race meetings when time permits, and I sell images to players, horse trainers/owners, parents of players etc and I do it for about 1/2 the price of the F/T girl and what I think is fair. I have also been asked to quote the local newspaper to cover some events. She has been telling quite a few people how much she dislikes me and the fact I charge so little, and does her best to convince people to buy her images that are no better than mine for twice the price. Do I care? Nope...
I keep on doing what I enjoy, make enough $$ to cover my costs and if it leads to the opportunity to make a decent supplementary income so be it, if not, I'm not bothered in the slightest.
virgal_tracy
17-05-2010, 10:11pm
There's a thread in this very section on how to work out an hourly rate (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=57252). I will put out there all of the arguments about if you don't value your ability how will anyone else. If you are happy keeping this as a bit of pocket money then charge what you want. If you want for this to be a bit more serious then how do you increase your prices later with everyone from your referral source knowing what you charged others.
Take into account that for every hour you spend actually shooting there is going to be a time allowance for the post processing, and with 2 shooters and therefore many more images then this time will be greater. I would think that you could charge more and get it. Seriously consider what you want to include as part of your packages.
As to taking work from f/t togs that really is your call but remember that if you go into this more heavily then having a good network is essential for those "what if" days and other togs may not be as forthcoming with assistance.
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