Question: Photos + Facebook

[Chris G]

Hello everyone,

I have a concerning question about the law's of photography with pub's / club's and with that them being published onto facebook as many club's are doing so now.


I've been taking photo's at the spencer hotel of the patron's for about 4mth's now and then publishing them on the spencer facebook page without a problem.

About 3week's, some woman complained about the photo's & rang the manager, threating to sue the spencer hotel.

Now I know I can't take photo's of people in public and publish the photo's without there consent. Though does this law apply to the same as inside & out of the club? And if so, how are the other club's getting away with it?

What has been done in regard's to that, as a lawer has said. To hand out card's, stating

" You have had a photo taken of you. To view the photo please head to the Hotel Spencer's unofficial facebook and search Hotel spencer "

Can anyone please inliting me on this? I really do not want the spencer or myself to be sued lol

Thank's

Chris

[michael_sa]

Busted with her with her 'bit on the side'. She won't sue.
Probably wouldn't hurt to take the offending pic down though.

[kiwi]

Grey area, but, if you have permission from the club owner you should be ok

Her only legal argument might centre around her right to an expectation of privacy, but in the circumstances you describe I'd doubt it would stack up


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[Chris G]

Busted with her with her 'bit on the side'. She won't sue.
Probably wouldn't hurt to take the offending pic down though.

Yeah well that's what we have thought, have taking a photo of her with someone she wasn't ment to be with and caused abit of a storm for her self.. lol

Small place here, so word gets around quickly so to say.. :th3:

Would it be wise to maybe put some sort legal policey up on on the facebook about the concern's of photography and the law in regard's to it? Just for people to have a understandering of what can be photographed outside of there home? Something like that anyway, I do understand this more a legal matter in context. Though thought's on this would be appreciated..

I honestly think it's something I can't say here.. lol :th3:

@kiwi:

I have 110% premission from the manager, in fact we are ment to be starting up a photo of the week winner type thing, where the winner will get a free drink voulcher of X amount.. How much is unclear to me at this stage.. Though I thought it was a good ider, + incourage's patron's to get there photo taking on the night.

[farmer_rob]

... Now I know I can't take photo's of people in public and publish the photo's without there consent....


I believe you are wrong on this point. You cannot use their image commercially without their consent, but as I understand it, "commercially" really means "in an advertisement". AFAIK, selling your pictures is not a commercial use, nor is displaying them.

Look here (http://www.artslaw.com.au/legalinformation/StreetPhotographersRights.asp)and here (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?t=20673).

Note - I am not a lawyer. If you get sued, don't blame me.

[David Kembrey]

By the way; read the FB upload terms and conditions. Really, don't use it for photos that you're serious about... 1) their T&C's allow them to use your images (read for specifics) and 2) the image quality honestly sucks. They compress an awful amount.

The T&C for FB have changed where they do not use the images without permission, due to the uproar that happen late last year or early next year.

[ricktas]

If you have the property owners permission, you should be ok. However it is a grey area, and as Kiwi said, she could argue about privacy. Best is to remove her photo as she requested. Maybe the Hotel should have a sign near their entrance that states they have a photographer and as a condition of entry patrons must have a reasonable expectation of being photographed, and that photos may be posted to the hotels facebook page. Probably not 100% legally covered, but it would certainly go towards the hotel showing the intent that they made that information available to all that entered and then patrons could chose not to enter if they had an issue with it.

[dbax]

Hello everyone,

I have a concerning question about the law's of photography with pub's / club's and with that them being published onto facebook as many club's are doing so now.


I've been taking photo's at the spencer hotel of the patron's for about 4mth's now and then publishing them on the spencer facebook page without a problem.

About 3week's, some woman complained about the photo's & rang the manager, threating to sue the spencer hotel.

Now I know I can't take photo's of people in public and publish the photo's without there consent. Though does this law apply to the same as inside & out of the club? And if so, how are the other club's getting away with it?

What has been done in regard's to that, as a lawer has said. To hand out card's, stating

" You have had a photo taken of you. To view the photo please head to the Hotel Spencer's unofficial facebook and search Hotel spencer "

Can anyone please inliting me on this? I really do not want the spencer or myself to be sued lol

Thank's

Chris

To my limited knowledge you can take someone's photo in public?


Grey area, but, if you have permission from the club owner you should be ok

Her only legal argument might centre around her right to an expectation of privacy, but in the circumstances you describe I'd doubt it would stack up



I suppose its whether the legal people consider FB as a form of advertising.( see farmer Robs post)


If you have the property owners permission, you should be ok. However it is a grey area, and as Kiwi said, she could argue about privacy. Best is to remove her photo as she requested. Maybe the Hotel should have a sign near their entrance that states they have a photographer and as a condition of entry patrons must have a reasonable expectation of being photographed, and that photos may be posted to the hotels facebook page. Probably not 100% legally covered, but it would certainly go towards the hotel showing the intent that they made that information available to all that entered and then patrons could chose not to enter if they had an issue with it.

I think this is a sensible suggestion and would go a long way to cover the publican and you from this type of complaint/ action in the future. I'd just remove the pic on this occasion until signage is in place.

[Wayne]

I think that many people would be put off attending if they know there is a real chance of their mug ending up on FB. Placing an easily read sign could be a great way to drive patrons away.

I suggest legally you have no issue as long as it wasn't taken in the toilets, or during a private function.

[kjl]

I used to work at a hotel that did a very similar thing - it used its own website rather than facebook which may also help as anyone viewing it had an intent to find information (or images) relating specifically to the hotel wheras I always see facebook as a bit more "open slather"...but thats just personal opinion.

When I was there, we didn't have any problems with patrons asking for the photos to be removed however there were a couple of things we had in place so everyone knew what was going on
1) a banner hanging in the bar area where the photos where taken (there were three bar areas so if they didn't want to be in any shots they were free to move spaces). The banner said when the photos were taken, where to see them and what the benefit was...eg. get your photo snapped in the xxx bar at xxx hotel on Friday evenings for your chance to win a $100 bar tab visit xxxwebsite
2) when a photo was taken we gave the people in the shot a business card size version of the banner so they had all the details

On a side note if you going to start up a "win a drink" prize or bar tab prize, just be careful of the promotional aspect of things - the hotel can't state this on teh website (or other public areas) as it is seen to be promoting drinking and encourages people into the hotel however they are free to promote it in-house (eg. a banner in the bar) as patrons are already in the hotel.

Hope this helps with the dilemma and good luck - if you want to know anymore about the promo that I assisted with just PM me.

[ricktas]

I also remind members of this AP site rule:

[19] Requesting/Providing Financial, Medical or Legal Advice on Ausphotography:

Australian Photography is a website with broad topic coverage. However, when it comes to medical, financial and legal advice, it's always recommended to seek advice from a qualified professional, rather than asking about it on Australian Photography. As such, Australian Photography takes no legal responsibility for posts seeking or providing Medical, Financial or Legal advice. Members use any advice provided via Ausphotography at their own risk. The site owner, moderators or members cannot be held liable for any Medical, Financial or Legal advice posted on the site.

It is good to get advice here, but if you want true legal advice on this matter, you will need to seek the services of a professional.

[Chris G]

This is the type of feed back I needed, to get a better understanding of what may or may not be done in regard's to the photo's and faceboook..

Mostly Apprecaited. thankyou to everyone! :th3:

In regard's to people asking about having there photo removed, we have never had a problem with doing so and in saying that have been asked before to remove a sertin photo that someone did not want on there..

Though in this case, the woman has not asked for her photo to be removed or even stated what photo she was in???.. Usally we get a email, and it's taking off asap with no question's asked.

Also I understand I can take a photo of someone in public without there consent (within reason) not totally stupid lol :P, I just thought I couldnt sell it or publish it without there consent first?. Clearly I need to read abit more on the subject lol.

99.9% of the time, patron's are quite willing to have their photo taking, most of the time I dont even need to ask. They come to me and drag me over to whoever it is they wan't the photo taking with lol.

@ Kjl: I think that's probably the best ider to do and will pass that along to the manager to see what she think's about it.

And one more thing, I actually didn't make the facebook page. It was already up and going with photo's on it before I moved here. I just took over the photography side's of thing's lol as I started off Dj'n there again as I used to 7 year's ago. ;)

All in all though, this information has cleared up alot of thing's and now the proper step's can be taking with further advice from a legal professional & the manager at the hotel.

Again thankyou to ALL :th3:

[dowden photography]

Most pubs, clubs, bars or night spots have a sign up stating that "you may be photographed while here" somewhere around. As long as they have that up she hasn't got a leg to stand on.

[rufus]

With regards to FB, they have a clause that they can use images as they like without informing you!


You own all of the content and information you post on Facebook, and you can control how it is shared through your privacy and application settings. In addition:

For content that is covered by intellectual property rights, like photos and videos ("IP content"), you specifically give us the following permission, subject to your privacy and application settings: you grant us a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to use any IP content that you post on or in connection with Facebook ("IP License"). This IP License ends when you delete your IP content or your account unless your content has been shared with others, and they have not deleted it.

[Pixel]

On a side note if you going to start up a "win a drink" prize or bar tab prize, just be careful of the promotional aspect of things - the hotel can't state this on teh website (or other public areas) as it is seen to be promoting drinking and encourages people into the hotel however they are free to promote it in-house (eg. a banner in the bar) as patrons are already in the hotel.

You also have to be careful if you run comps on Facebook - it's against their T&C to have competitions which are reliant on fan activity (e.g. person who refers the most fans gets a free print and the like). I know of a couple of people who've had their fan pages deleted because they ran competitions on facebook.

[Dizzy Photographics]

i dont know if it really means anything but i know there is a place in Alice Springs, Bojangles Saloon and Dining, that runs a 24/7 live feed accross the internet. I'm sure they would have to have things in place that made sure everyone knew that they were being broadcast around the world. Bit different to photography but i guess the principle is the same. Maybe ask them. I would have thought though that yes, if there was a sign up that says you may be photographed and photos used on the website then there wouldnt be much the person could do about it...maybe not go there if you're up to no good??? lol

[MTV]

My brother is the paid photographer for a fairly prominent club here in Sydney and all of their photos are uploaded to facebook. He's informed me that although, in the eyes of the law, it is a 'grey area', the law does not come down on the side of the photographer if the images are positioned in a public place.

However, you're going to have a hard time informing everyone that their photos are being taken in such an environment. They combat this issue in two ways: Firstly, speak to the manager of the club and have a sign (an A4 page with text will do) placed at each of the entrances stating that photos of patrons are routinely taken in this venue. Secondly, if somebody asks you to remove an image in which they are visible then just suck it up and comply.

This is not holeproof, but it shows that you are taking steps to observe privacy laws and should keep you out of hot water until the law decides on black and white rules here. I cannot overstate the tendency of the law to come down on the side of the people in the images, as opposed to the photographers. Good luck and happy snapping!

[Craftypics]

Firstly, you need a model release if your Facebook page has your photography business name on it.

You only need model releases if you are using it for advertising ( ie selling a product ). Otherwise it is just an editorial photo of someone at an event. If the venue is happy for you to be shooting there they dont have a case to answer for.

[dangreen]

No model release required unless for advertising.
This whole thing is a going to become a big issue.
Essentially the only correct way to do this is to make the images private - give the guest a card with a password.
Effectively limiting her to her own images.
Without this, anyone can access her images and she has every right to be alarmed.
The problem is that at nightclubs, patrons may be intoxicated when saying yes to having their images taken. They can argue that you took advantage of them.
I dunno, clubs is a tough one - I would be printing on the spot, an open facebook account is asking for trouble in my experience. Good luck with it all :-)

[Analog6]

It's a public place, and if you have permission from the proprieters you are Ok. But being tactful and removing that shot is probably a good idea.

There is a good article in the current Better Photography

[kiwi]

odille, you surely mean that it's not a public place. Just because public are in it does not mean it's public

I assume the club is prvately owned, that there may be a cost to enter and almost certainly there are conditions of entry

[ricktas]

You only need model releases if you are using it for advertising ( ie selling a product ). Otherwise it is just an editorial photo of someone at an event. If the venue is happy for you to be shooting there they dont have a case to answer for.

Ah, yes, but I would not want to test this in Court. The facebook page would at the least have the venue's name and most likely have lists of up-coming events etc. A court could easily see the facebook page as advertising. I would. Facebook to me is just a viral marketing technique disguised as social networking.

[kiwi]

It's highly unlikely this will be tested in court anytime soon, just too expensive for either party, in the meanwhile laissez faire


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[Longshots]

OK - first to be specific, this is not a public place.

Public have access to it. But its privately owned.

If I were the manager/owner of the hotel, I would just for additional protection, add into their terms and conditions of entry to their establishment (yep they would have T&C as well ! :) ), that as part of the their entry conditions that photography does take place as is posted to their FB page.

However, saying that, I for one would not really be too impressed to have (isnt this ironic !), to have a photograph taken if I did not want it taken, and I cant imagine a bigger disincentive to visit this particular hotel - sorry have to give you some honest feedback here.

Its one thing to walk around and ask if people want their picture taken within an entertainment establishment, and quite another to do it without asking. No offence meant at your entrepreneurial spirit, but I do consider that to be a tad off :) Sorry.

[Scotty72]

I imagine you would have no more liability that a newspaper would have for publishing photos of a news event; after all, you are simply publishing a form of photo journal. As long as the image in question is not used for commerical advantage (by the way, that still entitles you to charge for the image - ie the media - but not claim that person x endorses something), you will be good.

The night-club manager on the other hand may be dirty on you if customers feel worried that their private affairs are being made public - as customers would aviod the place.

Scotty