Do we value the local camera shop?

[OzzieTraveller]

G'day all

At the moment I am travelling thru country Qld, NSW & Vic running Digital Photo Workshops in conjunction with country town camera shops. My workshops are aimed at beginner to intermediate level, and run over a (very busy) weekend

In my off-line discussions with shop owners/managers, a common theme comes through... their "buy-price" for cameras + accessories from the major Aussie distributors is often greater than the "sell-price" for many of the Oz-wide non-photographic chain stores - you will know their names as you probably get their junk mail too

My Q: to you all is "how can we expect the "local shop" to survive?

Where will the expertise reside if they die? How can the Oz importers/distributors shut out these small businesses by their pricing? and I guess ... do you/we all want to end up purchasing our photo gear like we get bread & milk at the local supermarket where no-one cares and certainly, nobody knows that there even is a difference?

Regards, Phil

[swpope]

Phil,
It appears that Australia will go the way of the States in that only the strongest local shops with fiercely loyal customers will survive and the rest will be lost. As far as information flow to newbies, that will have to come from other photographers and from forums such as this one.

[Analog6]

I see the extreme difficulties for local shops, but for many of us we just cannot afford the extra $$. I do think it would be good if the camera companies came to the party and gave discounts to camera shops (not big stores like HN etc) that physically offer cameras and expert knowledge, so they could be competitive with online sellers, but I don't think it will ever happen.

[Oxley]

I believe most local independent regional retailers survive only on their service and charm. As someone who lives in the rear end of the universe (Taree) you have left out one other competitor, the online reseller.
For big purchases like bodies and lenses, I will go to the local bloke (who is a very smart cookie and active in the local club) and spend the extra, as its easier to return when there is a problem and the big retailers and online reseller won’t let me run around the shop comparing lenses for 3 hours, and I get the benefit of his experience.
But for other purchases such as lighting etc its online all the way baby.
Why?
The same reason why our company won’t deal with the local computer retailers, if I have done my research and I know what I want, its not price that is the deciding factor, as some online resellers are more expensive, its availability.
If I order something, either photo or computer related from a local retail outlet in Taree, it can take up to 6 weeks to arrive.
Worst case with online resellers, a week, on average its here the following day or day after.
But I steer clear of big retailers as they sell on price, if I say I have a budget of $1500, they will hand me something that’s $1600, not what matches my requirements and the staff have very little knowledge on what they sell, they only know how to sell it if you get my drift.

It’s the same with car parts, if I know what I want, I’ll go to SuperCheap, because the teenage girl behind the counter was scanning my groceries last week, and wouldn’t know an oil filter from an air filter.
But if I need advice, I go to the old bloke down the end of town, the same bloke my father has been going to for years.
But as to why people buy from big retailers? Why not buy your camera from the same business that sold you a TV,DVD player, fridge, lounge suite etc.

On a side note, have a think about parking, most small retailers rely on street parking, look and big retailers like HN and SuperCheap that have off street parking (well ours do) most days to find a parking spot to get to the independent store is a nightmare, most days at the big retailers I can park right at the door.

[Bally]

Perhaps if the camera manufacturers got their **** together and tied their discounts to the shops based on the percentage of staff that were trained in their product, rather than volume, then the little guys could compete and the big guys could actually provide some service, rather than destroying an industry. Groups like AP should be pushing for this, sales and tech certification rather than volume controlling discount. so a little guy with small but well trained staff gets a better discount than a high volume guy with untrained staff. Then staff also become more valuable to a business, and more an asset than teenage cannon fodder for Sunday sales. Lots of reasons why this should work better than just accepting that we should put up with less service, accountability and quality of experience. A bad experience and a wrong spend can mean a great future photographer never gets a start because a sales person motivated by a sales target and no understanding sells them something that does not perform in a way that is enjoyable or useful, and they go off and become a stamp collector. Remember, inexperienced buyers and newbies trust these guys, even HN as experts, and the manufacturers should be mindful that this reflects on them in the long run.

[rellik666]

To be honest I think it is the rise of sites like this as well as the rise of online stores that is going to contribute to the death of these stores.

We, as consumers, can come here ask about various sites, find out about what we want, meet other members and have a go with their kits, and find out about special deals...so I have no need to visit the local store.

So it is not just about price, I will pay a bit more for assistance but when I can get that here, I again won't visit a store. I can also get the views of people like me, and a variety of them, with no adjenda to sell anything to me.

I hate the idea of losing these stores, but unless they can compete on all levels they are going to loose out. There are no two ways about it.

Just my 2 cents....

Roo

[rellik666]

Unfortunately, we are the informed are a small preportion of sales....in the global marketplace cost is the primary driver and this will not change.

[chrisprendergast]

i buy from shops items that i needed sooner rather then waiting for postage. sometimes u cant afford to pay the extra $$$ from the camera store though although they need to make $$$ but seriously

[Kym]

I use Photographic Wholesalers here in SA (part of the Diamonds group, also CameraStore.com.au their online service)
I know the staff by name, and in one case went to school with one of them.

They always do a sharp deal for cash.
I only shop grey/overseas when the price difference is more than about 15%.
When I got my K-7 I was within $20 of the B&H landed price (eg. +shipping, +GST, + CC conversion rate)

So by first choice I shop local

[rellik666]

Saying that there will always be a place for the "professional" TOG shop but I doubt these will be far outside the major cities. There will always be people needing it now or need to rent. But with a 3 day turn around from pretty much anywhere in the world...most people would be happy to wait!

Roo

[Gremlin]

Sadly last time I frequented a camera shop was before DSLR's were the norm, god I miss that shop, shelves of film processing gear, enlargers, tanks, tongs, checmicals, theyd let me nick off around the shopping centre with some new lens they got in to play with, man that was a great store.
Since digi, I bought my dslr from a online place in QLD 12mths ago, a fair bit of gear thru fleabay, retailers online store in Melb. Last time I stepped inside a local store, I was standing there for about 20mins whilst this teenager was umming adn ahhing about whether to get a blue $80 camera or a pink one. I was standing there with 600 in my pocket to buy a flash, ended up walking out and got it next day delivery from QLD again.
Big retailers dont really seem to worry about core training, they care mainly(well most do) about volume of sales and if staff member Freddy made his target this month. I went to goodguys or clive something once to buy a HD Camcorder, actually found a very knowledgable lad and when I had the money couple weeks later found him working in Big W, why? cos he spent too much time with customers teaching them why they didnt need to spend 2K on something they only needed 1K to do...
Money talks better then knowledgeable sales staff sadly, but not in all cases.

Time for a snack in the microwave,

Grem'

[Redgum]

Two things come to mind. Bricks and mortar retailers are dead or dying simply because they're in one place in a global community. They won't revive in their present form. If you recall banks opposed online banking for decades and finally discovered by using it they could deliver less service for greater profits. Nasty as that may be it's a fact of life. Bricks and mortar retailers have to adopt this attitude, not oppose it. Unfortunately, most of their potential customers don't want their service, that's why they buy online. Want proof? All the major retailers have an online service and only encourage people to their shop to cross sell product. i.e. Why sell just a camera when you can sell a case, a CF card, a couple of lenses. Even this will be entirely online shortly.
Secondly, from a merchants perspective why pay rental for shop premises (a business's largest cost apart from staff) when you can work from home or a single base (chain retailers have stores everywhere and they cost money), why have sales staff when as a retailer you can direct people to this site for unlimited information.
Asians have been showing us for years how to trade with low costs online. We in this country (so vast and lowly populated) can do the same thing and perhaps with more local integrity, safety and service.
Manufacturers will only pay attention to those who sell most despite the product so you can forget any sympathy from that source and remember that most manufacturers are off shore and usually based in the countries where online selling is almost mandatory.
Bottom line? Aussie retailers will need to go online to survive and prosper and they will need to network with forums and the service side of the industry to provide that cutting edge.

[Bear Dale]

In business you have to always adapt....continuosly. The business's who don't...go under.

Retailing is changing very quickly. No longer can business's work on a 4-5 year plan. They need a 12 month plan.

Small suburban and country camera shops are closing up fast. They haven't kept pace with the times and consumers are educated like never before.

[Shane.R]

They could drop their price for a start. The upmarket % is insane.

[Bear Dale]

They could drop their price for a start. The upmarket % is insane.

Yes I agree, but there argument is that they can't beat the online stores.

But to me thats pretty hollow. In the '70's there was mail order, the internet and online is just another form of mail order.

[Redgum]

Shane, there's an element of truth in that but the "upmarket %" as you call it is what pays for the bricks and mortar and wages and unless you increase volume there's nought you can do.
Even with big margins if you look at the books of small retailers the profit margin is slim. The only way to make it work is by cutting costs, bricks and mortar, staff and direct service. The only answer is online and we're almost there, like it or not.

Jim, mail order was quite different in that it was done from a catalogue which had to be mailed and was often out of date and cost a fortune. But back in that century we had the patience to wait more than 24 hours for our purchase. Consumerism demands instant gratification and that's why we get all our presents before Christmas these days.

[Bear Dale]

Jim, mail order was quite different in that it was done from a catalogue which had to be mailed and was often out of date and cost a fortune. But back in that century we had the patience to wait more than 24 hours for our purchase. Consumerism demands instant gratification and that's why we get all our presents before Christmas these days.

Yes, you're quite right there and point taken.

[Clubmanmc]

cant wait till Woolworths start to sell cameras too...

sadly we the consumer are to blame as we chase the inevitable $50 cheaper on line bargain...

I have a contact in SA that i bought most of my stuff from over the years... and when i go in there i still get a good reception and a warm welcome.. and i live in another state...

loyalty sadly has gone out the window...

M

[rellik666]

Look at the UK as an example, it has a well developed internet marketplace and the high street is dying.

The GFC has taken its toll and large companies that were just surviving on the high street have gone! Camera retailers included...but this isn't just a Camera thing this is affecting the retail world. TBH I am surprised that it has taken Australia so long to catch up....

As long as we want cheaper prices and a Need It Now society that is what is going to happen....Technology isn't helping itself either....with the latest and greatest announced every 2 minutes people get used to getting it immediately...great for the manufacturers, rubbish for the bricks and morter retailers.

Roo

[JM Tran]

They could drop their price for a start. The upmarket % is insane.


they cant, it is the fault of the distributors like Canon and Nikon Australia not the retailers, you will find that camera stores make peanut profits from a camera. A Nikon D90 might be bought at cost price for $1040 from Nikon distributor, and sold for $1090 body only, then someone comes in wanting it to match grey import prices of under $1000, they just cant do it............and its not their fault.

most of their profits come from accessories such as camera bags and other stuff, now theres a huge mark up:)

[davesmith]

For me, pricing isn't the problem. It maybe a small part of it, but not a deciding factor. It's simply poor advice.

When shop staff push canon and nikon stating everyone uses them, and actively discourage you from other brands when they don't know the practicalities of any brand in the first place, they have no value whatsoever.

As an outcast Sony user, and years in Minolta before that, some tool in a shop telling me say, a 50D or D300 or whatever, would've been a better choice of camera is not helpful when I'm looking for a new Sony mount lens.

The only value I give to these stores now is checking a product physically before buying somewhere else. I put more reliance on actual users' experience, not someone trying to make some commission or sales target.

[Redgum]

So, most of us see the demise of the small camera retailer, particularly in rural areas and areas of small populations? It doesn't have to be so!
That retailer has a number of options. The first is diversification. Take on related products or another product that compliments his/her knowledge. Maybe art, paintings etc., home hardware if it suits. After all, Harvey Norman sells refrigerators, beds and lounges plus cameras.
Secondly, join the online game, fight fire with fire. Could really work well in rural areas as in most cases the product is delivered directly from the manufacturer anyway. Okay, he/she may need to learn some new skills or they could invest in another local with that knowledge. Something like the AP forum. We know where Rick lives but he doesn't share his house with all the Mods (at least I don't think so). The most important thing for an online business is a secure and permanent telephone number. Mobiles don't cut the mustard. There's little cost in setup compared to a bricks and mortar company and it gives you the ability to trade 24/7, even unattended. You can keep making money without getting out of bed (so to speak).
Times are changing and the way we do business has to change too.

[wattsgallery]

So many issues raised in this thread I can't comment on them all but from my perspective the individual and chain stores need to be clear on exactly what it is that they are offering that is worth a premium and quantify it. Above the online stores they offer:
- immediate delivery
- no postage cost
- no uncertainty over GST or import charges
- inspect before you buy
- sometimes valuable advice/knowledge
- ease of return/warranty follow up
- australian warranty
All of that has a value (which will vary for individuals) and the stores need to accurately assess it and decide whether or not it offsets their fixed costs (labour/rent etc) because if it doesn't they no longer have a viable business.

The 'buy price' being so far off others 'sell prices' may open questions about where bricks and mortar stores should source their gear from - perhaps 3rd parties (aust or grey market) and not the manufacturers. That opens up other issues about warrnaty etc but they are not insurmountable.

As to service and knowledge I think that is getting less and less of an argument. In the past access to information was restricted and meant that expertise was a reasonably rare thing but for anyone shopping above the entry level range now it is most likely they have researched the heck out of the gear they are looking at and as to experience with it well I will send a post out to all of you guys and girls to get first hand feedback on gear rather than hope that a particular sales person has both extensively used the gear and is inclined to provide honest feedback even at the risk of a sale.

Just my 2c.
Josh

[davesmith]

So, most of us see the demise of the small camera retailer, particularly in rural areas and areas of small populations? It doesn't have to be so!
That retailer has a number of options. The first is diversification. Take on related products or another product that compliments his/her knowledge. Maybe art, paintings etc., home hardware if it suits. After all, Harvey Norman sells refrigerators, beds and lounges plus cameras.
Secondly, join the online game, fight fire with fire. Could really work well in rural areas as in most cases the product is delivered directly from the manufacturer anyway. Okay, he/she may need to learn some new skills or they could invest in another local with that knowledge. Something like the AP forum. We know where Rick lives but he doesn't share his house with all the Mods (at least I don't think so). The most important thing for an online business is a secure and permanent telephone number. Mobiles don't cut the mustard. There's little cost in setup compared to a bricks and mortar company and it gives you the ability to trade 24/7, even unattended. You can keep making money without getting out of bed (so to speak).
Times are changing and the way we do business has to change too.

So, providing credible advice doesn't rate at all? We just want to save the shop?

[davesmith]

.... As to service and knowledge I think that is getting less and less of an argument. In the past access to information was restricted and meant that expertise was a reasonably rare thing but for anyone shopping above the entry level range now it is most likely they have researched the heck out of the gear they are looking at and as to experience with it well I will send a post out to all of you guys and girls to get first hand feedback on gear rather than hope that a particular sales person has both extensively used the gear and is inclined to provide honest feedback even at the risk of a sale.

Just my 2c.
Josh

If service and knowledge isn't important, what's the point of saving, or even having, the shop in the first place?

[wattsgallery]

Dave my point was that the reason that the stores are preferrable is because they offer all or a combination of these things:

- immediate delivery
- no postage cost
- no uncertainty over GST or import charges
- inspect before you buy
- sometimes valuable advice/knowledge
- ease of return/warranty follow up
- australian warranty

as opposed to the 'knowledge' argument which I believe is ever diminished as alternative sources of information become available.

[Redgum]

Once we can grow food online there probably isn't any reason for bricks and mortar. Simply move all the country folk into the cities where they can suffer poverty with their city cousins. That's because tens of thousands of real jobs will disappear. Sorry if I'm passionate about promoting work in rural areas.
Ozzie townsfolk rely on local business to survive. I think it's more appropriate to find ways to modify those businesses so that can happen. Far more important than someone saving a quid on a camera purchase.
Sometimes you have to pay for things in life but let's make it equitable. An online solution for rural camera shops seems to be a smart alternative particularly if matched with face to face service.

[Bear Dale]

Dave my point was that the reason that the stores are preferrable is because they offer all or a combination of these things:

- immediate delivery

Hmm yes but is 24-48 hours really that long to wait for sometimes a massive saving?

- no postage cost

Again the postage cost can be offset against the overall saving and that's before bargaining for free postage (which I have usually been successful with.

- no uncertainty over GST or import charges

I've bought over $20,000 in piecemeal acquisitions and so far have never paid any GST or import charges.

- inspect before you buy

That's a point, but with Youtube and online reviews a fairly informed descision can be made without physically handling many products.

- sometimes valuable advice/knowledge

And sometimes quite invaluable advice as well. Again, a savvy buyer would have done their homework long before walking into a store.

- ease of return/warranty follow up

Have you ever returned something under warranty to a bricks & mortar store? It's no less painful than having to do it yourself. Usually takes longer and can be much more frustrating by NOT cutting them out of the process.

- australian warranty

Thats a point. But many things *Canon* do have Australian warranties regardless of where it's purchased. Then there are many other things like filters etc that I personally am not worried about not having an Australain warranty with.

[Redgum]

So the consensus is that we keep the bricks and mortar and suggest they develop an online presence so as to compete successfully price wise and everyone is happy. What a great idea! Maybe it should be called d-d photographics or something like that?

[davesmith]

That may be the general consensus for those concerned about price alone, which it seems most commenting here are. My issue is with quality advice, which I'm struggling to find, but am more than prepared to pay for. I don't care where they're from, but why would I want to pay extra to buy from a shop when they don't offer me anything over buying cheaper online?

[maccaroneski]

I agree with Dave. I found that at ECS - bought a body and 2 lenses there.

[Redgum]

Dave, go back to the original post. The statement was that the shop owner had expertise but can't compete with online prices. The resolve is that the shop owner retain his business and add online facilities. Best of both worlds and meets your criteria. You can go and talk to the shop owner and pay a retail price whilst others can buy online at reduced cost (saving of labour costs) but forgo that advice and service.

[davesmith]

I did read the original post. It questioned "how do we expect the local shop to survive?" I offered my opinion that they need to provide quality advice for the price they charge. Someone in a shop telling me I should've bought a canon and treating me like an idiot because I didn't isn't quality advice. So what incentive do I have to use the shop?

[Redgum]

I did read the original post. It questioned "how do we expect the local shop to survive?" I offered my opinion that they need to provide quality advice for the price they charge. Someone in a shop telling me I should've bought a canon and treating me like an idiot because I didn't isn't quality advice. So what incentive do I have to use the shop?
Well, I have to agree with that Dave. Anyone telling you you should have bought a Canon would have rocks in their head. But that happens with cars, whitegoods and computers. Go to the next shop. :)

[Steve Axford]

I'm all for service and I am prepared to pay a little more for it (note - a little more), but even the big camera stores often provide little service. It's hard to see how a small store with essentially no expertise can survive.

[Big Pix]

...... I buy at a store and use the same store for web purchase........ the professional service that I have received over a number of years has been excellent....... e.g.: purchased a new digital D200 took it on location and had an instant hate for the body, it was exchanged for a D2Xs without question...... have returned, or, and exchanged a number of lens over the years, new and second hand, due to various reasons, done without question...... so a store is important to me just for quality and professional service.........and sometimes I just drop into the store for coffee....... but their biscuits do need changing........

[ricktas]

If you can't beat em, join em!

There is nothing to stop some of these brick and mortar stores building their own online site, with a shop, employing some schoolies to do the packaging and away they go. Often we hear them whinge that the online retailer is taking their business away, well there is not one thing stopping them from competing in this 'new' online world, other than the fact they are to blinkered to consider it, cause that is 'not how we do things around here'.

You can do it fairly cheaply to, the software that runs the Ausphotography Shop (http://shop.ausphotography.net.au/) is FREE, and infinitely customisable: http://www.oscommerce.com/. Can you be successful online using free site software? Of course, www.qualitycamera.com.au (An Ausphotography advertiser) uses this very software.

Yes, they may disappear, but so have so many things before them, and the main reason is that they disappeared cause they didn't keep up.

[Charmed]

Some stores shoot themselfs in the foot, by not stocking the very basic stuff.
ie, batteries, most popular cards, even those basic cleaning kits, blowers etc.

Yes will go to Albury & even Shepp, but main reason why I shop online is convience & yes even cheaper, even after postage etc. You cant even get the basics at our store these days. God they dont even stock point & shoots anymore. Perfer to cater to the tourist market & pump out the 1hr photos.

[MarkW]

Me, I'm no longer interested in bricks and mortar shops, I just want a retailer to supply what I specify. When I started in underwater photography some 30 odd years ago, a shop in Pitt Street, Sydney in their commercial/industrial section was only too happy to help where they could with advice and products. They were great. That store was Fletchers Photographics. Since they closed down the industrial section and moved premises they aren't worth a pinch of ****. Their shop assistantant are grossly undertrained - to test this ask them what film is?

This is the same everywhere, I'm yet to find a retailer that has a clue about what they are selling other than what they read, at the time that I enquire, about the product. Give me a break, just hand me the pamphlet and I'll read it myself.

The internet is a wonderful resource and allows me to look up far more specifications than is printed on the sales brochure so why do I need some dumbarsed sales assitant telling me what on the piece of paper. Worse yet is when they lie to you and tell you how good this is, "I have one myself at home" - please give me a break, I wasn't born yesterday and in fact I purchase things for a living and have studied business psychology. If they think that these sorts of plays are going to work - wrong, only makes me walk out.

Sorry if your a retailler with a shop but really I'm over you.

[Craggles]

I recently purchased a grey import 50D, I would have loved to purchase it in a store however I got the camera and a 50mm f/1.8 for $1100, I went to every store in the perth CBD and to get something similar was being quoted atleast $5-600 more, I value their advice and would happily pay for it, but seriously its not worth that much.

It's unfortunate that they cant compete with online prices, maybe canon should look into this and start helping out the smaller blokes.

[Redgum]

maybe canon should look into this and start helping out the smaller blokes.
People keep saying this but both Canon and Nikon have already "looked" into it. Who do you think supplies the online/grey market? Numbers are everything and if I can sell 10 units and you only 1 who do you think they will supply? Both of course!

[OzzieTraveller]

G'day all

Although I started this thread early this morning ~ and thanks for all who have made comments ~ several weeks ago I was in Townsville and popped into the chain store that has bright yellow bags ... to look at a new Nikon 20x ultrazoom job

Now each of you has a camera dial that has P A S M or something very similar upon it

I asked the girl in the cameras area "I presume this camera has PASM?"
She looked at me as though I was an idiot ~ she didn't have a clue as to what I was talking about - and her face said that she didn't want to know either

A young bloke came along and I asked him the same thing - he went to the computer terminal and started to read off the specs - mpx, zoom, etc etc and price ... but nothing about its non-auto capabilities. I didn't recommend either the shop or the camera to the person who had asked for my 2-bob's worth in the first place

Regards, Phil

[Big Pix]

Now each of you has a camera dial that has P A S M or something very similar upon it

Regards, Phil

....... now hands up all that know what " P A S M " would be....... :D

[Ozzi Paul]

I have only ever purchased camera gear from a bricks & mortar shop. (Camera House, Photo Supplies) Although the closest one to me is 130km away. I always ask if they can do a better price and they normally do even though I don't mind paying a bit more for quality service, but they have gone close to some online prices. They normally get my stuff in pretty quickly to, 1 or 2 days is not to bad I think. The only thing is that they don't hold a lot of stock like the online stores so there at a bit of a disadvantage there, and the don't have much for Pentax. Still, I will be sticking with them for a bit yet.

[Analog6]

Well, yesterday I went to the local camera shop in Tweed Heads for a small purchase and was treated in such a rude, arrogant and high handed manner by the owner that I just walked out. And I am a huge supporter of local shops wherever I can.

Since the store changed hands a couple of years ago the service has gone from friendly and knowledgeable to an 'I know what you need and don't argue with me' attitude. And the guy is totally different if men or younger women go in - I've seen him in action. Well, that was my last shot at 'giving him a go'.

[Steve Axford]

....... now hands up all that know what " P A S M " would be....... :D
Never heard of it.

I looked it up on the internet and Wikipedia lists the following (in this order)
- Parrot assembly language
- Pima Air & Space Museum, in Tucson, Arizona, United States
- Porsche Active Suspension Management

And last, and least

- Program mode, aperture priority, shutter priority, and manual modes on the mode dial in SLR photographic cameras

By the way, my camera doesn't have a mode dial. I've never missed it.

[Big Pix]

Never heard of it.

I looked it up on the internet and Wikipedia lists the following (in this order)
- Parrot assembly language
- Pima Air & Space Museum, in Tucson, Arizona, United States
- Porsche Active Suspension Management



....... no wonder I have trouble with exposure and focus.......:lol:

[Big Pix]

By the way, my camera doesn't have a mode dial. I've never missed it.

........ now would that be a mode Dial or mood Dial...... now I am even more confused.....:lol:

[KevPride]

Well, yesterday I went to the local camera shop in Tweed Heads for a small purchase and was treated in such a rude, arrogant and high handed manner by the owner that I just walked out. And I am a huge supporter of local shops wherever I can.

Since the store changed hands a couple of years ago the service has gone from friendly and knowledgeable to an 'I know what you need and don't argue with me' attitude. And the guy is totally different if men or younger women go in - I've seen him in action. Well, that was my last shot at 'giving him a go'.

I have had the same experience in many shops, because I have grey hair they assume I have no idea what I want or have any knowledge - I refuse to put up with their BS.

A recent experience I had with a well known SA Camera retailer - I went in with my money after getting a quote from them via Email - no stock? when would it arrive I asked, "not sure we have had an order in for some time!" I will ring you when it comes in - well 3 weeks later he rings me to say it has arrived - in the mean time I picked up the same Pentax K7 camera from their retail arm 19 days earlier.

If the stores think this style of service is acceptable then they deserve to disappear.

[jeffde]

Bought my first 400D from the local camera store but every purchse since has been online. Drop in and get some gear, a slingshot bag, cleaners etc. But they just can't compete on price.
I have friends in the courier business in Orange it's booming Why
Online retail and Ebay.
I would never go into retail anymore, its to damn hard to compete...

[Redgum]

I would never go into retail anymore, its to damn hard to compete...
So you've been completely sucked in Jeff? Next thing your local retailer closes and your online source decides to charge an excess fee for those without local competition. Don't laugh, we've seen it with banks, food chains (online shopping) and even the very small items, music (iTunes come to mind).
It doesn't matter how it's done the whole idea is to get rid of the competition and become a monopoly (I think of Telstra and many of their online services - you now pay to have your bill sent to you)
The only thing that's keeping online traders honest at the moment is fierce competition but that will die soon as things become regulated.
Me. I'd be pushing to keep the local supplier in town even for a small bounty because eventually you'll pay through the nose without him.
PS: How do you get your online supplier to come to a club meeting to speak? They're invisible, no?

[Steve Axford]

So you've been completely sucked in Jeff? Next thing your local retailer closes and your online source decides to charge an excess fee for those without local competition. Don't laugh, we've seen it with banks, food chains (online shopping) and even the very small items, music (iTunes come to mind).
It doesn't matter how it's done the whole idea is to get rid of the competition and become a monopoly (I think of Telstra and many of their online services - you now pay to have your bill sent to you)
The only thing that's keeping online traders honest at the moment is fierce competition but that will die soon as things become regulated.
Me. I'd be pushing to keep the local supplier in town even for a small bounty because eventually you'll pay through the nose without him.
PS: How do you get your online supplier to come to a club meeting to speak? They're invisible, no?

Strange argument. We used to have much more expensive cameras and the online stores brought the price down. Now you argue that the only thing keeping the price low is the local stores. So why was the price high when there were only local stores? It doesn't make any sense.

[rellik666]

I doubt that very much! The thing with the internet is that it is a truely global market and that will always keep the prices down.

I agree that B&M shops need to hybridise, provide the ease of the internet with a physical location. However there location need not be on the high street, but somewhere that customers can visit or call.

They may not match the grey importers, but there is a business for a local shop with the personal advice and experience, plus the ease of the internet.

Unfrotunately for them, I have found some of these grey importers and internet shops to be more than just a price and have been very helpful. Not all but some!

What the answer is I don't know, but to the lay person Price will always be driver, especially in the high volume entry level market!

Roo

[Redgum]

Strange argument. We used to have much more expensive cameras and the online stores brought the price down. Now you argue that the only thing keeping the price low is the local stores. So why was the price high when there were only local stores? It doesn't make any sense.
G'day Steve, the answer is simple, competition. Online suppliers provide competition in abundance but can't really provide service as we would expect. Whilst the local service points are around online prices will be really good. Once they go the pressure is off and prices go up. Just flip through eBay for any product that doesn't have an offline presence and you'll see what I mean.
Back in the old days everything was more expensive because Australia is such a small market. These days we're part of the global community and enjoy the benefits but that's only while we have local manufacture and retail.

[MarkW]

So you've been completely sucked in Jeff? Next thing your local retailer closes and your online source decides to charge an excess fee for those without local competition. Don't laugh, we've seen it with banks, food chains (online shopping) and even the very small items, music (iTunes come to mind).
It doesn't matter how it's done the whole idea is to get rid of the competition and become a monopoly (I think of Telstra and many of their online services - you now pay to have your bill sent to you)
The only thing that's keeping online traders honest at the moment is fierce competition but that will die soon as things become regulated.
Me. I'd be pushing to keep the local supplier in town even for a small bounty because eventually you'll pay through the nose without him.
PS: How do you get your online supplier to come to a club meeting to speak? They're invisible, no?

Thats the biggest load of rubbish so far printed.

Who cares if the local retailler shuts down, it wont and cant change the economy of the online sales. If your online shop wants to charge some fee then go to another online retailler - this is the key, there are plenty of them and the competition is real.

Bricks and motar shops base their pricing on what the market will bear and it has nothing to do with costs of product and overheads. Banks charge fees because they're in oligopoly situations or their customers are locked to them for a number of resons including laziness. As for iTunes you are paying for a service and the ability to get just what you want ie parts of an album, not the whole lot.

If you want to talk about Telstra then you need to also say that Telstra was formed as a monopoly by the Government selling a government owned corporation which had no competition by the fact that it was Government controlled operations.

Regulation - what rubbish is this, who talking about regulation of online trade and how would you "regulate" it. Import and taxation regulations already exist what else would be introduced. Your post is just blatant scare-mungering

Pay through the nose without a local retailler - no - pay through the nose at the local retailler. If he cant compete with other forms of sales well then I'm sorry thats just tuff.

Lastly I wouldn't want a local retailler at a camera club as all he sees are dollar signs and really has nothing to offer of value.

[Redgum]

I'm sorry Mark that you have no understanding of economics at all. Others comprehend and history is the proof.

[MarkW]

I'm sorry Mark that you have no understanding of economics at all. Others comprehend and history is the proof.

Wrong

But I'm not going to argue - its just not worth it - and the opions of others in this thread only confirm my views. I am yet to see anybody confirm yours.

[Steve Axford]

G'day Steve, the answer is simple, competition. Online suppliers provide competition in abundance but can't really provide service as we would expect. Whilst the local service points are around online prices will be really good. Once they go the pressure is off and prices go up. Just flip through eBay for any product that doesn't have an offline presence and you'll see what I mean.
Back in the old days everything was more expensive because Australia is such a small market. These days we're part of the global community and enjoy the benefits but that's only while we have local manufacture and retail.
Name a few? I can buy lots of things that have no local presence here. I do it with many things and there is still online competition.

[rellik666]

^^ :th3:

[Bally]

Please excuse the clumsy copy and paste, but I haven't worked out the how to make quotes work yet

MARKW Thats the biggest load of rubbish so far printed.

That's a bit strong and your following comments didn't really support your assertation that well

MARKW Who cares if the local retailler shuts down, it wont and cant change the economy of the online sales. If your online shop wants to charge some fee then go to another online retailler - this is the key, there are plenty of them and the competition is real.

The economy of the the online shops may not change if the local retailer shutsdown, but there is no logical connection here with who cares. I and a number of others care if the local shop closes, because I want to look feel and test a new camera. get advice service and support from them. As a number of others have said, the local shop could also have a online capability and reflect the savings from selling in an online environment.

MARKW Bricks and motar shops base their pricing on what the market will bear and it has nothing to do with costs of product and overheads. Banks charge fees because they're in oligopoly situations or their customers are locked to them for a number of resons including laziness. As for iTunes you are paying for a service and the ability to get just what you want ie parts of an album, not the whole lot.

Everyone charges what the market will bear, unless they are selling into a competive market, that is why unique items sell for so much, and commodity items so little. Competition is the ultimate market force. Banks "may" be an oligopoly, but again when funds are easy to access, small players come into the market and drives costs down. again competition.


MarkW If you want to talk about Telstra then you need to also say that Telstra was formed as a monopoly by the Government selling a government owned corporation which had no competition by the fact that it was Government controlled operations.

If you want to use Telstra as an example of a monopoly, then perhaps it is not the best example. There are plenty of monopolies and monopolistic businesses out there. For example, Standard Oil, Bell Telephone, both broken up. Microsoft invested in Apple to ensure that they didn't reach 95% market share and become a victim of monopoly laws.


MarkW Regulation - what rubbish is this, who talking about regulation of online trade and how would you "regulate" it. Import and taxation regulations already exist what else would be introduced. Your post is just blatant scare-mungering

Something like banning australians from buying from overseas sites? They already have the laws in place to block sites if they did this. Not likely I admit, but possible, grey marketing is illegal in some countries.

MarkW Pay through the nose without a local retailler - no - pay through the nose at the local retailler. If he cant compete with other forms of sales well then I'm sorry thats just tuff.

As I said in an earlier post the local retailer may or may not be able to compete, but under the current structure it is disadvantaged by manufacturer selling tactics, not the selling opportunites.

MarkW Lastly I wouldn't want a local retailler at a camera club as all he sees are dollar signs and really has nothing to offer of value.

Really silly, I don't think there is much of a need to comment on that


So in summary, local retailers can offer online services as cheaply as a big company, but also offer unique capabilities above and beyond online busnesses. They can't buy as cheaply as high volume sellers, but this could be addressed as it is in other industries by the sales model of the vendors. If it was they could then compete, and have a full service offering business and a no service online business and even a third model that involves both.

Allowing the little retailer to be run out of business would be bad for the manufacturers in the long run.
Monopolies grow out of unregulated markets and are broken up in regulated markets.
Laws and regulations change with time, experience and circumstance.
I think your agression and lack of understanding about marketing and economics are displayed here.

[MarkW]

QUOTE=Bally;537918]Please excuse the clumsy copy and paste, but I haven't worked out the how to make quotes work yet

MARKW Fine but that shouldn't stop you understanding that the quote system is based on a response to previously printed text held within the box and not to the general text previously written. I shall use this sytem as you have already started this format and would be difficult to correct your misunderstandings otherwise.

That's a bit strong and your following comments didn't really support your assertation that well

MARKW Whilst my tone of what is written may be a bit strong, you have failed to point out where MY comments don't support MY assertions. Big words with lots of sylables but meaningless without context.

The economy of the the online shops may not change if the local retailer shutsdown, but there is no logical connection here with who cares. I and a number of others care if the local shop closes, because I want to look feel and test a new camera. get advice service and support from them. As a number of others have said, the local shop could also have a online capability and reflect the savings from selling in an online environment.

MARKW If you look at the percentages of people who purchase over the net compared to say 5 years ago, the trend is increasing and as more and more people become computer literate and more comfortable with online purchase, the future of the small retailler is short. A large number of people these days only go to the shop to look without purchase then purchase online - not morally correct but that is the way it is. If your local camera shop holds the type of equipment you want then you must live in a major CBD area or your still learning the photography ropes as even major business district shops like Parramatta in Sydney wont carry the type of bodies, lenses or accessories I need. Its all order in stuff and I refuse to purchase when I cant see from a retailler so I may as well use online.

Everyone charges what the market will bear, unless they are selling into a competive market, that is why unique items sell for so much, and commodity items so little. Competition is the ultimate market force. Banks "may" be an oligopoly, but again when funds are easy to access, small players come into the market and drives costs down. again competition.


MarkW I don't need a lesson in basic business mechanics. I have an AD in this and this subject was week 1, lesson 1.

If you want to use Telstra as an example of a monopoly, then perhaps it is not the best example. There are plenty of monopolies and monopolistic businesses out there. For example, Standard Oil, Bell Telephone, both broken up. Microsoft invested in Apple to ensure that they didn't reach 95% market share and become a victim of monopoly laws.


MarkW I refer back to my first comment. I didnt bring in the example of Telstra, the author in the quote box did.

Something like banning australians from buying from overseas sites? They already have the laws in place to block sites if they did this. Not likely I admit, but possible, grey marketing is illegal in some countries.

MarkW What a load of crap. Maybe if you were buying pornography or something which may be considered as morally outrageous but we are specifically talking about camera equipment. This is not a communist country. Care to specify what countries (other than communist or dictatorships) make grey market sales illegal? Yes you can't buy cuban cigars in the USA but thats a product block of a rogue dictatorship which had previously shown agression towards the US.

As I said in an earlier post the local retailer may or may not be able to compete, but under the current structure it is disadvantaged by manufacturer selling tactics, not the selling opportunites.

MarkW No its diadvantaged by its own business model which has enormous overheads and a loyalty to the local brand distributor. There is no reason it cant accept a grey market business model. It works for D-D Photographics. If all the small retailers went to a bricks and mortar grey market model the only one to suffer would be the local distributor ie Nikon Australia, an independant business entity. It would have no affect on Nikon Japan - relatively the same number of Nikons would be sold. Eventually a distributor for local grey market would be formed which would compete against the overseas distributors then everybody would be happy.


So in summary, local retailers can offer online services as cheaply as a big company, but also offer unique capabilities above and beyond online busnesses.

See earlier comment on look and touch

They can't buy as cheaply as high volume sellers, but this could be addressed as it is in other industries by the sales model of the vendors. If it was they could then compete, and have a full service offering business and a no service online business and even a third model that involves both.

What industries - qualify your statement

You want the distributor to say "Ohh look, a little retailler, lets give him a lower distributor price than the company who sells 100 times as much". Did you fall out of a tree recently and bump your head? I dont know of any distributor who sell for less with a lower volume. Sales prices equate to volume, that was lesson 2 week 1, note its so simple it was done on the same day as lesson 1.

Allowing the little retailer to be run out of business would be bad for the manufacturers in the long run.

Rubbish, people are going to purchase the brand and model of equipment they want one way or another so that in the end the manufacturer will still get the profits albeit sometimes in a reduced amount.

Monopolies grow out of unregulated markets and are broken up in regulated markets.
Laws and regulations change with time, experience and circumstance.

So I haven't indicated any desire for a monopoly have I, maybe you dont understand what has been written. Either that or you are taking comments out of context which only reinforces a lack of understanding or a desire to write agressively for your own agrandisement.

I think your agression and lack of understanding about marketing and economics are displayed here.

Maybe my tone was and is a little strong but you really have shown no insight or provided any qualified statements which give any impression of an understanding of corporate governance or business modelling. Maybe things have changed in the last 20 years when I got my AD but I don't think so.

[ricstew]

I care if my local retailer closes down...........but not the camera bloke.
Smaller retailers need to take a closer look at their customer service........thats what I am happily paying the higher price for.........
I cant justify paying $60 for a $19 sc card..........but i said no thanks with a smile........
cheers
Jan

[bricat]

Just a quick check online for a camera I am looking at; canon 7d with lens cheapest $2200. to $3600 from Ted's. I have to go into Melbourne to see and purchase the camera at Ted's or not see it and purchase online. And the savings $1400. If someone could justify that amount of difference then I would happily and prefer to buy at Ted's. Same as I don't need to feel and see the camera in the flesh as I trust Canon with there products. And they all come from the same factory????? So really we are not talking a few dollars here to keep the local store going I'm supporting him to drive his Lambo!!

[BLWNHR]

I read the first page of this thread and have a fair feel for where it's going.

My $0.02 worth is to say of the $7.5k of gear I have bought in the last 18 months less than $500 of that has been online, and then it was to Australian online stores. I have watched over the last 10 years as our regional city has dropped from several camera stores down to one.

I have built up a great relationship with all the staff in this shop, they all know me by name and are always very helpful. I love being able to call in, maybe have a coffee with the manager, and talk cameras with people who hold the same interests. This to me is invaluable!

I could have saved around $1500 buying online, but what of warranty? If I have a problem I go back in there and they are straight onto their Nikon rep. If I have a shoot coming up they will offer me a loan lens, body, whatever. You will never get that from any online store.

If I buy a new body, take it home and am struggling with something I could spend a few hours searching the net, asking questions and posting photos on forums. Or I can walk into my local store and show them my issue. 90% of their staff do the training through Nikon, Canon etc. and can offer real advise. "Come with me for a walk down the street and we'll see what we can work out shooting in the real world." Brilliant, I couldn't ask for more.

People complaining they won't match grey-market prices or whatever, of course they can't, and never will. But for genuine, Aus-delivered, stock from an Australian online store (compare apples with apples here) you would be surprised what they can do. Of course if you go in with a price on a D90, body only, from insert online store here and say "match this" they will probably say no. This is just the simple rule of margins. However, if you make a reasonable purchase with them then they will be far more likely to look after you on price down the track. Case in point, my first purchase was a D300 and 70-200 2.8. A reasonable purchase. Because they had increased margins, because it was a reasonable purchase, they came happily close to the online price. Then when I bought my 24-70 2.8 they really looked after me, likewise with all subsequent purchases. I also get great value on my prints too, an added bonus.

[dsaini]

I read the first page of this thread and have a fair feel for where it's going.

My $0.02 worth is to say of the $7.5k of gear I have bought in the last 18 months less than $500 of that has been online, and then it was to Australian online stores. I have watched over the last 10 years as our regional city has dropped from several camera stores down to one.

I have built up a great relationship with all the staff in this shop, they all know me by name and are always very helpful. I love being able to call in, maybe have a coffee with the manager, and talk cameras with people who hold the same interests. This to me is invaluable!

I could have saved around $1500 buying online, but what of warranty? If I have a problem I go back in there and they are straight onto their Nikon rep. If I have a shoot coming up they will offer me a loan lens, body, whatever. You will never get that from any online store.

If I buy a new body, take it home and am struggling with something I could spend a few hours searching the net, asking questions and posting photos on forums. Or I can walk into my local store and show them my issue. 90% of their staff do the training through Nikon, Canon etc. and can offer real advise. "Come with me for a walk down the street and we'll see what we can work out shooting in the real world." Brilliant, I couldn't ask for more.

People complaining they won't match grey-market prices or whatever, of course they can't, and never will. But for genuine, Aus-delivered, stock from an Australian online store (compare apples with apples here) you would be surprised what they can do. Of course if you go in with a price on a D90, body only, from insert online store here and say "match this" they will probably say no. This is just the simple rule of margins. However, if you make a reasonable purchase with them then they will be far more likely to look after you on price down the track. Case in point, my first purchase was a D300 and 70-200 2.8. A reasonable purchase. Because they had increased margins, because it was a reasonable purchase, they came happily close to the online price. Then when I bought my 24-70 2.8 they really looked after me, likewise with all subsequent purchases. I also get great value on my prints too, an added bonus.

I Agree with BLWNHR, it comes down to customer service.

A friend bought a D700 from an online store, it has focusing issues, he had to send it for repair at Camera Clinic which took about 6weeks to come back.

With local shop, he would have just walked in and replaced the body and he would have had a working body the same day but since he bought online he had to rely on repairs than just getting it replaced.

[BLWNHR]

Just a quick check online for a camera I am looking at; canon 7d with lens cheapest $2200. to $3600 from Ted's. I have to go into Melbourne to see and purchase the camera at Ted's or not see it and purchase online. And the savings $1400.

But you're talking about Ted's, they are ALWAYS expensive. Find a quality retailer like Camera Exchange (http://www.cameraexchange.com.au/) or the like and talk to them. Corporate stores like Ted's and Harvey Norman are only interested in money, not having knowledgeable, helpful staff.

[pgbphotographytas]

I value the interaction I get from my local store more then saving a couple of $ by buying off the internet. I go in every couple of weeks for a browse, they know me by name and I know most of them by name, we talk gear and what we have been snapping lately, I get to play with the new equipment and if I have any problems at all they are happy to sort them out. When I make big purchases they always look after me with a good price :D

[Redgum]

I Agree with BLWNHR, it comes down to customer service.

A friend bought a D700 from an online store, it has focusing issues, he had to send it for repair at Camera Clinic which took about 6weeks to come back.

With local shop, he would have just walked in and replaced the body and he would have had a working body the same day but since he bought online he had to rely on repairs than just getting it replaced.

This can often be the reverse though. Very small stores with low stock or large chains often send cameras back to suppliers before replacing them and this can take a lot longer than repairs.

[ricktas]

This can often be the reverse though. Very small stores with low stock or large chains often send cameras back to suppliers before replacing them and this can take a lot longer than repairs.

Agree, if it is DOA (dead on arrival), most stores will replace it with one in stock, but otherwise they will take it off you and send it back to supplier for repair.

[Grug]

I am finding myself agreeing with the comments regarding immediate availability, but not so much on service. Although it can be nice to encounter staff that are helpful and know their products - you can get most of the same details online, and without having to hope that you are fortunate enough to get a salesperson that knows their stuff.

So for me - the only incentive to go local is for things I can't wait for the postage times associated with internet orders. It may sound harsh, but I don't believe in supporting outdated business models purely because they have been useful/viable in the past.

Something I do see a good market position for is localised stockpiles with priority couriers and no bricks-and-mortar presence and reduced staff-count to accommodate a slightly lower price point. If I need a new flash and battery for the weekend and can't wait for an international delivery, but a local online order can have it to me the next day - I would buy that.

[Redgum]

Something I do see a good market position for is localised stockpiles with priority couriers and no bricks-and-mortar presence and reduced staff-count to accommodate a slightly lower price point. If I need a new flash and battery for the weekend and can't wait for an international delivery, but a local online order can have it to me the next day - I would buy that.
Utopia. I doubt you will ever see that other than on rare occasions and just before the distributor/retailer goes broke.
Not good business practice to hold high stock levels particularly with prices constantly falling and models continually changing. Couriers are a very expensive way to distribute, one on one delivery, and we're already starting to see cluster delivery or collection points emerging in capital cities.
Actually, delivery is a blight with on-line sales and on small articles often pushes the price past the impulse buy level.

[wattsgallery]

Couriers are a very expensive way to distribute, one on one delivery, and we're already starting to see cluster delivery or collection points emerging in capital cities.
Actually, delivery is a blight with on-line sales and on small articles often pushes the price past the impulse buy level.

Re the above - I used to also point to the deliver/distance concern when it came to the success of online business in Australia but recent experience has shown me that many companies are really overcoming this.

Best recent example would by our site sponsors Quality Cameras. Check the recent thread with comments on their delivery. I personally placed a pretty small order (just over $100) but the deliver was less than $10 and arrived next morning Perth to Sydney. It seems it can be done.

Still hoping to stumble across one of the knowledgeable and helpful sales people referred to above but until then I will be going online more for purchases.

[Harrier]

Rent rises are killing the smaller shops! The cheap printing by the chains are taking so much work from the smaller guy! Combine the two!

I think Photographers do so much research on forums and Google etc that most store owners would be battling to keep up with the wealth of information out there!

[wideangle]

In this market driven economy people by in large are going to vote with their $$ first. Take a look around at the camera stores closing down around towns and cities and the big chains taking their place. The same goes for local grocery shops. There used to be one in most suburbs once - now most are closed down and no longer used. It's all good to support local shops, but in this era when online shops and chain stores can offer prices that are a lot less than traditional shops, then customer service alone isn't going to save the camera shop. Check out small grocery stores - most have had to close or turn into boutique delicatessens to survive.

[wideangle]

I value the interaction I get from my local store more then saving a couple of $ by buying off the internet.

In many cases camera gear that is sold on many online stores would be quite a bit more than a few dollars saved. It can be as much as 50% cheaper online. Again, the choice of options and where to buy is downto personal choice about how and where they want to shop. Much like the debates that surround digital v film, canon v nikon...... In the end though I reckon that, although not the perfect answer to all shopping needs, being able to get things over the internet etc gives consumers choice.

[Colinc1]

Although i would like to support the local camera store, it, just doesn't work for me as there's only one camera store near me,the rest are in the city.

Going to the city is not really an option for me,as its a 3 hr round trip,and i would have to take time off work.

The local store rarely has what i want,or its sold out,does not have a large range of lenses,but they can be ordered in,which can take week or more to get,at an inflated price.

For example, i wanted the very popular nifty 50, the local store didn't have any, and couldn't say when they would be in stock

So i tend to shop online now,and can get something delivered from o/s in about 3-5 days at a much cheaper price,i ordered a 50mm f1.8 from o/s on the Monday,got it on the Wednesday,very convenient for me.