View Full Version : Police Clearance.
If you are in the habit of photographing Junior Sport in NSW I suggest you read the following link, and click on and read the facts sheet.
http://www.kids.nsw.gov.au/kids/working/certificateforselfemployedpeople.cfm
Of particular interest is the point that as of 1st May 2010 you may run the risk of a $22,000.00 fine if someone gets nasty and you don't have a Police clearance Certificate. For $80.00 for 3 years it is a good bit of insurance.
Looks similar to the Bluecard here in Queensland, which you also require, and if shooting professionally a "commercial grade" bluecard
Looks similar to the Bluecard here in Queensland, which you also require, and if shooting professionally a "commercial grade" bluecard
Pretty much the same thing Darren, but they've introduced this one for self employed people who don't come under an employers normal "Working With Children" check. The checks and clearances seem to vary from state to state.
Could Mongo please get some clarification of this stuff.
It all talks about “employment” or “self employment”. Most people on this site are casual, amateur photographers and NOT employed in any sense of the word. Therefore , does any of this apply to those of us (leaving aside all the stuff we have previously discussed about using good sense about what subject matter you photograph etc ) ??
Mongo, are you selling the photos ?
Kiwi,
it is exceptionally unlikely that MOngo will ever photography kids unless for some friend's family photos. In any event, it will not be in an employed capacity (or for reward) if I do this favour for them. Also Mongo has NEVER sold any of his images to anyone nor does he intend to. Does that help ?
Lol, Well, IN QLD anyhow that was the determining factor as to the class of Bluecard, I think it's likely to be similar in NSW
Speedway
11-01-2010, 3:31pm
Just another way of governments ripping off law abiding citizens and using overblown media hype to justify it.
This topic has the potential to go off the rails PDQ as did a recent one.
Don't get personal
Keep On Topic
The Mods are watching
No flaming or flamebait
linuxgear
11-01-2010, 3:52pm
Just another way of governments ripping off law abiding citizens and using overblown media hype to justify it.
hi,
I think that's 1 of reasons corporate driven communism is already here for some time now
I was raised in communist country I know something how the propaganda and system is implemented successfully by those behind bureaucracy and or law making machine
the only small difference is, this comes from global mafia not from ruling party like former USSR for example
all the rest, no difference
enjoy reality !
Just another way of governments ripping off law abiding citizens and using overblown media hype to justify it.
....or completely the opposite view.
A caring government for the people helping to look after our children and charging a totally reasonable fee to do so rather than taking the funds out of the consolidated account that all taxpayers contribute to, with the media making people aware that not all the glistens is gold.
:)
MichelleL
11-01-2010, 4:38pm
Lol, Well, IN QLD anyhow that was the determining factor as to the class of Bluecard, I think it's likely to be similar in NSW
It's interesting you mention that as I rung the blue card place a short while ago and was told that I don't need a card as I'm taking photos of the kids with the parents permission ie - family portraiture session.
I am wondering now if I've been given some wrong advice? :umm:
I was taking photos under my company name, not as me I suppose, so am an employee effectively. I think that was a factor too.
ricktas
11-01-2010, 4:51pm
I think the blue card idea is sound. Even if nothing else it creates a bit of 'peace of mind' in parents. They know the holder has been police checked etc. So even if it doesn't really do any good, it also does no harm.
PerfectPicture
11-01-2010, 5:03pm
Interesting .. never heard of the Blue card before .. what is the Victorian equivalent?
Joining another volunteer organisation in a months time, they need a 'working with children' check done and license issued, is that the same thing?
l'm just a standalone guy walking around with my camera taking pictures, what else is required to get to take picture of people in and around public events?
Cheers
Scotty72
11-01-2010, 5:08pm
I think the blue card idea is sound. Even if nothing else it creates a bit of 'peace of mind' in parents. They know the holder has been police checked etc. So even if it doesn't really do any good, it also does no harm.
Not sure I can concurr... All teachers undergo regular police checks, it doesn't stop suspicion at school carnivals.
I think they have just found a way to tax yet another thing that used to be free. If it really were a genuine 'child protection' move, why not make it free or minimal cost (eg $5 to cover the cost of making and posting the certificate).
Mongo, I think it will apply to you (not working as a tog). Volunteers, footy coaches etc. also have to get this piece of red tape.
Before anyone blows up: I am NOT against it - but the cost, $80 to photograph your own kids' playing footy, makes me think it nothing more than a tax grab. For I, who undergo these checks anyway, will need to pay MORE money for something I already have.
It should ALWAYS be free to photograph your own kids.
Police checks do not cost $80 per person for the sporting association I'm involved with...yet another tax grab i say!
but seriously, every sporting event I attend as an volunteering official (ie. game referee) I have to sign a police check form...and it's different in every state!! When will we get some national consistency that applies to everything...surely when they do a police check they check a national database and you don't need to have it done 6 times a year!
And as with the restrictions for photography at beaches/schools/pools, this new "law" is not going to protect the kids, it's simply going to affect the innocent and law abiding citizens.
MarkChap
11-01-2010, 5:44pm
Blue Cards (in qld) are a crock of the proverbial, what do they prove ??
They prove that you do not have a recorded history of any any wrong doings, that's all.
Do they have a photograph on them to ensure their is no doubt that the person presenting the card is indeed the person named on the card ?? NO
Don't get me wrong, we need to do what can be done to protect the innocence of our children, but unfortunately until a person is caught doing a police check will not prevent anything
Speedway
11-01-2010, 5:50pm
As a retiree on a pension I cannot afford fees to do something I have done for years voluntarily taking photos at the local football and cricket (in 2 states) then selling prints for a very modest fee to partly cover my costs. The paranoia caused by media over and wrongly reporting many things is the biggest problem in modern society, a small example is the incident of a break in a local silo dropping about 50 tons of wheat out of the silo it was reported to be 5000 tons which is more than the total capacity of the silo there were also false reports of other repairs to silos that had failed. If the media can't report easily confirmed simple things like this how can we trust them to report major happenings honestly and correctly.
Keith.
Rick, I've had a blue card in Qld since they started, which was years ago. In fact because of what I do I need two. One for commercial work and another for volunteer work Believe it or not. Each card covers different contingencies so it's not a priority system.
I would visit up to a hundred schools each year to video or photograph kids and I have never been asked to produce my card.
With my role as chairman of prisons I've seen a significant number of former card holders become resident. Also, teachers and police are not required to hold a blue card and yet from our community these people have a great deal to do with children regularly. I'm just emphasising that parents shouldn't take security for granted because the blue card system exists.
It does make you wonder what its worth is and I don't blame some people for thinking that the motives for the system are purely monetary.
Having said that, of course you need to apply for a card if your work requires one. That's the law. The only people outside that are the ones that molest children. I can't recall any offender being charged for not having a blue card.
MarkChap
11-01-2010, 6:29pm
snip: Also, teachers and police are not required to hold a blue card and yet from our community these people have a great deal to do with children regularly.
Medical professionals are not required to hold a blue card either, even when participating in activities outside of their profession
As stated a bluecard as required by say a volunteer, coach etc is free in QLD
Of course it does not guarantee that you are not a child molester, a drivers licence doesnt guarantee that you aren't a hoon either
But get convicted and you dont have one.
Having a bluecard is a requirement that I have come across a few times both in sporting club involvement and also in photography
as for police and medical practitioners requiring a bluecard, come on folks, do you think that the checks done on them might actually be more detailed and stringent than the bluecard so what possible advantage would having one have ?
this anti-establishment stuff is astonishing
as for police and medical practitioners requiring a bluecard, come on folks, do you think that the checks done on them might actually be more detailed and stringent than the bluecard so what possible advantage would having one have ?
this anti-establishment stuff is astonishing
Hey Darren, give us a break. :) Do you propose we put these people above the law because of their occupation? Maybe we should include judges, dentists and accountants and all other professionals, that covers a great portion of inmates in prison.
Why not just tax everyone $80 per year and give all a free bluecard? When you think of it we all deal with children or children's groups at least once a year. Ever been to the Easter show or Ekka? The bluecard serves no purpose, particularly not security.
Does anyone actually read what I say or jump three pages ahead, what I said was what additional checks would be done on say a policeman applying for a bluecard to those checks that he/she might have done to be a policeman
How you read any message about putting anyone above the law by me applying some simple logic is staggering and ingenuous
here here Kiwi - least i did read saying what you said..... as for police they go under fingerprint, and national names index to checks . seems be to more indepth then called so blue cards
Longshots
11-01-2010, 7:32pm
....or completely the opposite view.
A caring government for the people helping to look after our children and charging a totally reasonable fee to do so rather than taking the funds out of the consolidated account that all taxpayers contribute to, with the media making people aware that not all the glistens is gold.
:)
Oh yeah and they're providing on the spot management of this are they ? Yeah right of course they wont be. So what do you get for your money eh ! ? Keep dreaming Kiwi :) You and I sometimes share an opinion, but on this one we dont - its simple revenue raising and pretty disgusting one if true ! Considering all the crap we adopt from America, its a shame that a bill of rights isnt one of them !
And I'm sorry but the blue card system is so appallingly flawed and misunderstood by both recipients and the adminstering authorities ( at least in Qld) that its quite frankly a pathetic, and dangerously mismanaged !
And yes I did read all of your posts :)
MarkChap
11-01-2010, 7:41pm
I wasn't suggesting that it was a bad thing, simply that they didn't need one.
I fully agree Darren that the checks done to be employed in those professions would be a lot more in-depth than that done for a blue card.
A little off topic but having to pay for additional police checks for different reasons is a bit over the top.
I am a Justice of the Peace(Qualified) - Police check
I have a Positive Notification Card (Blue Card) - Another Police check
I have recently been considering joining the local Rural Fire Brigade - Guess What - I have to have another police check.
Scotty72
11-01-2010, 7:50pm
Hey Darren, give us a break. :) Do you propose we put these people above the law because of their occupation? Maybe we should include judges, dentists and accountants and all other professionals, that covers a great portion of inmates in prison.
Why not just tax everyone $80 per year and give all a free bluecard? When you think of it we all deal with children or children's groups at least once a year. Ever been to the Easter show or Ekka? The bluecard serves no purpose, particularly not security.
My God, I find myself agreeing with Kiwi - twice today!
I am sure he means that Police, Medicos, teachers etc all are required to undergo police checks as a part of remaining in their respective jobs.
I KNOW that in QLD, the BTR (Board of Teacher Registration rip off teachers to the tune of $100+ each year to do the checks)
In NSW the Institute of Teachers is being formed. Why? To give us the priveledge of paying $100+ a year for them to run checks.
NSW Dental Board also keep an eye on these things - as I assume the AMA etc all do as well - for huge fees.
The police - how hard is it for the police to do a police check on a cop.
So, I doubt that Kiwi thinks these professions are 'special'... I assume he just knows that we are all checked inside out and back to front - regularly.
Scotty
Just to clarify, a police check is a police check irrespective of your occupation, we are treated equally in this regard.
What is different is the additional checks done that relate to specific issues with children. These can be applied to a bus driver equally as to a doctor. And unless the doctor is dealing with these issues he/she won't be checked.
Fantasyphoto
11-01-2010, 8:09pm
I worked as a contracted shooter of childrens activities for many years (soccer, rugby league, swimming, athletics, dance, team and individual portrait etc) and never experienced a problem or complaint. Every employer required me to complete a "working with children" statement which I don't believe was ever checked.
One day I was photographing girls swimming events at the Sydney Olympic pool venue when a lady came charging out of the seating area, rushed out on the pool deck before the officials could stop her, confronted me and asked whether I was the photographer who had covered the event the previous day. Thinking the $%&^ was about to hit the fan I answered honestly that it was me only to be greeted with a hug, a kiss and a thank you.... it seemed she was happy with the prints she bought of her daughter. (I never got to see my work as my employer had several young ladies doing the sales, editing and onsite printing and a runner would collect my CF cards every few minutes)
I am yet to have a problem first hand although my wife was questioned by a parent once when we were both photographing my daughters soccer team.... perhaps I have just been lucky?
Yes you have been lucky
And nowhere have I said I agree with the Bluecard or whether it's effective. Im just stating the facts, as I understand them
And all I did was state the opposite view, I didnt say I agreed with that either
I think I'm a centre-wing
Or fence sitter
friend in nsw email did me a link to local story about police with photographer doing expo
http://www.portnews.com.au/news/local/news/general/cops-called-as-shutterbug-clicks-away/1721686.aspx
Kiwi, sorry that my post has involved people attacking you.
I put the post up as information, not as a subject for various misguided political/anti regulation
fanatics.
The response of some has made me decide in the future to not pass this sort of information on in the form of a post for everybody to see. Selective PM may be the way to go, which is not in the spirit of this forum but has been prompted by several peoples attitude.
Longshots
12-01-2010, 10:28am
friend in nsw email did me a link to local story about police with photographer doing expo
http://www.portnews.com.au/news/local/news/general/cops-called-as-shutterbug-clicks-away/1721686.aspx
I read that article and simply wondered why the photographer in question didnt just explain what he was doing and left at it that - why does he then clearly inform the newspaper about the incident ? He even is quoted as saying yes the policeman was just doing his job.
The police do have a role, and as a pro I dont mind explaining to a person with the proper authority - as a policeman has in a public place - exactly what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. Having a camera and pointing it at people and taking shots of them without their permission isnt a right, and in my humble opinion its rude. I've always talked to people I shoot and explained what I'm doing. If they dont want me to photograph them I dont -that to me is simply respectful.
There is a middle ground here. Its called compromise and understanding.
As it happens even though I earn my living from photography, I have to be honest to admit that I truly do not like my picture taken without my permission or some form of explanation as to what its intended use is. Ironic eh ? :)
I think the blue card idea is sound. Even if nothing else it creates a bit of 'peace of mind' in parents. They know the holder has been police checked etc. So even if it doesn't really do any good, it also does no harm.
Totally agree. In discussion with the Child Safety Officer of one of the sporting associations where I take photos, with their permission, she agreed that peace of mind for parents was a big thing.
Lat year i was asked to take photos of a Disable Sports Expo and was charging a nominal amout for my time and effort.
I had to undergo a Dept of Sport and Rec check which was fine by me. However the check didn't come back before the event therefore i was unable to take the photos and be paid. However i could have "volunterred" and did it for free and no check was required. I questioned the hipocaracy that i was approached and offered to be paid, i needed a check, however if i was a volunteer and approached them i didn't need one.?????
BTW the Dept of Sport and Rec check is much more in depth than the police one (so i was told) Not sure if that has changed since then.
Bill thanks for posting this thread. It is very useful and i thank you...
Kiwi, sorry that my post has involved people attacking you.
I put the post up as information, not as a subject for various misguided political/anti regulation
fanatics.
The response of some has made me decide in the future to not pass this sort of information on in the form of a post for everybody to see. Selective PM may be the way to go, which is not in the spirit of this forum but has been prompted by several peoples attitude.
No Bill, don't consider not posting this sort of thing on the forums.
It is a very worthwhile subject and a means of educating people. :th3:
There is nothing in this thread that constitutes an attack as I see it.
absolutely, its all ok Bill. Its healthy to have vigorous discussions. I enjoy it.
campdog
12-01-2010, 5:42pm
From what I can see this is a way of ensuring that people who want to work with children doesnt have any prior criminal convictions and child related offences. My wife works in home daycare and we all undergo a police check.If this certificate can help keep offenders away from children then it is worth every cent.Leaving a young child alone with someone is asking a lot of trust in someone. Im for it and will happily pay.I dont think this will apply to a parent taking photos of thier kids playing footy.But if you are a pro and you make money from photographing and working with young kids then tuff.
John
peterb666
12-01-2010, 5:55pm
If you are in the habit of photographing Junior Sport in NSW I suggest you read the following link, and click on and read the facts sheet.
http://www.kids.nsw.gov.au/kids/working/certificateforselfemployedpeople.cfm
Of particular interest is the point that as of 1st May 2010 you may run the risk of a $22,000.00 fine if someone gets nasty and you don't have a Police clearance Certificate. For $80.00 for 3 years it is a good bit of insurance.
This certificate is not required to photograph children. It is used to demonstate to clients who seek to pay you to work with children that you are not banned by law from working with children. That is very clear in the linked information.
Looking through the content on the site, on the Facts Sheet page (http://www.kids.nsw.gov.au/kids/working/certificateforselfemployedpeople/factsheets.cfm) it says...
Who needs a Certificate
You will need to get a certificate if:
•you are self employed
•and you work in one of the settings defined in the Commission for Children and Young People Act 1998 as child-related work settings
•and your work requires that you have direct unsupervised contact with children (under 18)
•and you are over 18 yourself.
If you meet those requirements or needing to have a certificate and you don't have one you fined $2,200 (not $22,000).
It also goes on to say...
From 1 May 2010 self employed people who work with children, such as music and dance tutors, sports coaches and nannies, will need a certificate that says they are not banned from working with children in NSW.
If you are not receiving payment or do not intend to sell your photos, you are not self empolyed.
This certificate is not required to photograph children. It is used to demonstate to clients who seek to pay you to work with children that you are not banned by law from working with children. That is very clear in the linked information.
Looking through the content on the site, on the Facts Sheet page (http://www.kids.nsw.gov.au/kids/working/certificateforselfemployedpeople/factsheets.cfm) it says...
If you meet those requirements or needing to have a certificate and you don't have one you fined $2,200 (not $22,000).
It also goes on to say...
If you are not receiving payment or do not intend to sell your photos, you are not self empolyed.
It depends on how you read, and fully read, the facts sheet.
In one place it says $2,200.00 and in another it says $22,000.00. If you read the application form it also covers volunteers.
One point that I'm trying to get across here is how long will the "I'm only photographing my daughter" excuse stand up to a challenge when there are other girls in the shot. Particularly when, as in netball, there are a lot of quite revealing shots when the girls jump for a ball.
It will not be long before we will need a licence similar to firearm licences just to own a camera :angry0:
Bill44
13-01-2010, 11:19am
It will not be long before we will need a licence similar to firearm licences just to own a camera :angry0:
.........and you can blame the paedophiles and perverts for it, not the Government which is offering a measure of protection to genuine photographers by making available the appropriate licences, and yes I'm angry too that society has degraded to the point where they are necessary.
Scotty72
13-01-2010, 5:43pm
No, I think we can blame the scare-mongers and over-reactors. (as well as the crims)
Quite literally, the chances of your child being sexually interfered with by a stranger is tiny. But some carry on like it is a statistical likelihood ?????
In fact.. most abuse is by male relatives... Perhaps govts can issue blue cards that allow you to become an uncle etc.
Scotty
Redgum
13-01-2010, 11:05pm
.........and you can blame the paedophiles and perverts for it, not the Government which is offering a measure of protection to genuine photographers by making available the appropriate licences, and yes I'm angry too that society has degraded to the point where they are necessary.
Bill, Scotty is right. Many paedophiles/perverts are not discovered until they've committed scores of offences and sometimes over 20/30 years. These people have no records and their request and receipt of a blue card would be no different to you and I. In fact, many of these people are in prominent public positions and trusted community leaders. The bluecard serves no purpose and appears only to fund government coffers. No one is suggesting we shouldn't be vigilant but the debate shouldn't focus on fear but an alternative method for discovering those people who shouldn't have access to our children.
ricktas
14-01-2010, 5:26am
No, I think we can blame the scare-mongers and over-reactors. (as well as the crims)
Quite literally, the chances of your child being sexually interfered with by a stranger is tiny. But some carry on like it is a statistical likelihood ?????
In fact.. most abuse is by male relatives... Perhaps govts can issue blue cards that allow you to become an uncle etc.
Scotty
Correct, but the media hype would have us believe that there is a 'dirty old man' on every street in the country, which is simply not true.
Most people can go their entire lives and not encounter a paedophile in real life ,the closest they get would be seeing a news article about one. Yet the media hype has reached the point that everyone is suspicious of everyone else. And then the government and media cry fowl when an elderly person's body is discovered in their house months after they died and they say we are not caring enough and should talk to our neighbours etc.
A blue card offers at least a level of 'protection' and having one does no harm.
How many paedophiles are caught by being out photographing children? Most are known to their victim or they do the grab on a street, by luring a child into a car etc. A blue card is not going to help then.
Scotty72
14-01-2010, 8:38am
How many paedophiles are caught by being out photographing children? Most are known to their victim or they do the grab on a street, by luring a child into a car etc. A blue card is not going to help then.
With all respect Rick, that is so untrue (grabbed off the streets)
About 3 years ago, I went to a child protection seminar as part of my work.
Random snatching off the street are such a rare thing as to be statistically insignificant.
This was supported by NSW Crime Stats for that year (2006 or 7). There were only 3 random child (< 16 years) snatching for that year. In a state of over 6,000,000 people with approx 1.5 - 2 million children... your child is more likely to be killed by a bee. Far, far, far more likely to be killed in a motor accident.
Yes, there are paedaphiles out there... but almost always, it is NOT a stranger... it is someone known to the child - most likely a male relative.
Yes, children to get approached by men in cars - but, overwhelmingly, kids know not to get in.
Finally, high school aged girls often report stalking - usually turns out to be them being paranoid AND occasionally they report being taken - this almost always turns out to be false report (eg they are late for curfew and dream up an excuse to avoid trouble)
Scotty
OzzieTraveller
17-01-2010, 8:57am
G'day all
Several nights ago I was reported to Police for allegedly photographing children at a neighbourhood fun fair. I was threatened and violently abused by a member of the public and on the verge of being arrested by the constabulary
The fact that it was at night, the camera on a tripod, me and equipment right out on public display, and the photographs taken with the permission of the site manager made no difference
Three things come to me from this:-
1) Like others above, I have been photographing at public events for over 40 years, safely and with permission, BUT
2) The media have blown up the issue that some parents have become so paranoaic it is no longer funny, SO
3) I will be applying for a police-check-clearance and having it with me in future.
I do not want to go thru this again. It has deeply shaken me and I feel devastated
By the way, a selection of the fun-fair images are on my Flickr site at " www.flickr.com/photos/ozzie_traveller/sets/ "
Regards, Phil
Im very sorry to hear this Phil, a very similar thing has happened to me and it is very hurtful
farmer_rob
17-01-2010, 10:18am
G'day all
Several nights ago I was reported to Police for allegedly photographing children at a neighbourhood fun fair. I was threatened and violently abused by a member of the public and on the verge of being arrested by the constabulary...
Very sorry to hear this. What were they planning to charge you with when they arrested you? Did you consider reporting the person who threatened and abused you? What you were doing is not illegal, but I believe what he was doing was.
Analog6
17-01-2010, 11:20am
Scotty, I thought that was what Rick said, a relative is far more common in the role of abuser.
Just last weekend I heard a woman tell her child not to go in the men's public toilet because 'dirty old men' hid in there to grab little children! Give the kid a phobia for life (he was about 3, I think). He looked terrified.
Scotty72
17-01-2010, 11:52am
G'day all
Several nights ago I was reported to Police for allegedly photographing children at a neighbourhood fun fair. I was threatened and violently abused by a member of the public and on the verge of being arrested by the constabulary
Regards, Phil
Firstly, so sorry to hear that. Hope you are ok.
I too would be very interested to know what charge the cop was dreaming up to arrest you for. Photography isn't illegal and you couldn't be accused of trespass.
Have you reported this police officer? Have you reported the assault on you?
Mate, if you feel like donating $$$ to the state treasury, go ahead.. but it wont make a scrap of difference. As a teacher, I undergo police checks and carry my NS### card as prrof of occupation. This has done nothing to calm people down.
People behave in the way they did to you because they are in an irrational, paranoid mood. Do you honestly think these same people will be made instantly rational by a pice of paper?
The cop who harassed you must have known that you were doing nothing wrong - he was just reacting to the mob (thinking the easiest way to keep the peace is to get rid of you - not address the ignorance of the mob - a lzy way to police - but common)- again, would a piece of paper suddenly make him 'challenge the mob mentality'?
In fact, IMHO, by getting a blue card, you are caving into - an worsening this mob mentality.
Scotty, I thought that was what Rick said, a relative is far more common in the role of abuser.
Just last weekend I heard a woman tell her child not to go in the men's public toilet because 'dirty old men' hid in there to grab little children! Give the kid a phobia for life (he was about 3, I think). He looked terrified.
Oh, I guess I mis-understood his words.
Most are known to their victim or they do the grab on a street, by luring a child into a car etc.
To me, it sounded like he meant that one or the other - as if they were about the same.
In fact, grabs of the street are so extremely rare (literally more like to be killed by a bee / eaten by a shark)... In well over 90% of cases, it is a male relative.
And, what a terrible mother to do that to her own child... scare the pants off him. Surely, her waiting outside the door (as I do with my little girl) is ok.
Scotty
peterb666
17-01-2010, 2:22pm
I agree totally with Scotty72 on this with one minor exception, while police are supposed to know the law, quite often perceptions and assumptions replace fact. If you feel that the police officer did the wrong thing, DO contact your local police station and report the issue.
A few years ago, when my wife was doing her driving licence test in my car, an off duty police officer using a mobile phone ran into the back of my car when my wife stopped at a give way sign. The police officer tried to make my wife concede it was her fault which lasted until the driving test instructer intervened.
As it was possible that there may be a future dispute, I completed a Police Traffic Incident Report of the accident. The very helpful desk officer asked if I wanted to lodge a complaint about the policeman driving the car which I declined as I didn't expect any further problem on that occassion.
From time to time, police will do things that are not right. It doesn't happen very often, but if there has been any issue, I would follow it up.
Unfortuatley, many adults act irrationally these days. I blame the media for this. I don't think it is something that is going to be resolved easily. Might I suggest that for those in NSW, if you feel pasionate enough about it, write a letter to your local MP and raise the issue of photography rights. Maybe even suggest a lower cost non-commercial scheme for amatuer phtographers. This $80/3yr scheme is meant for commerical photographers.
Yes it is intended for commercial photographers (and volunteers if you read the application form). The price is no problem for me, I clear that much from 1 team shoot.
Colinc1
17-01-2010, 7:06pm
I work as a cleaner,a police clearance certificate is not strictly necessary,
but for many clients and prospective clients, a certificate seems to give
the clients peace of mind, and also increases my prospect of winning the
contract/s.
And it is also a tax deductible expense, so, no, i dont mind spending the $$ every year
for a new one.
Scotty72
17-01-2010, 7:51pm
Yes it is intended for commercial photographers (and volunteers if you read the application form). The price is no problem for me, I clear that much from 1 team shoot.
Unfortunately, the attitude of, "I'm alright thanks, Jack." isn't going to make things better.
Many volunteers may be grandmas and granddads on pensions who might really miss $80. Are we suggesting as a society that only people of means should be allowed to photograph their own kids?
There is also the priciple to consider of photographer doesn't imply terrorist ; nor should we need a blue card to 'prove' our 'innocence'.
Scotty
I remember fondly the times of yore... you know, when people were presumed innocent unless otherwise proved guiltly by twelve persons, good and true.
Unfortunately, the attitude of, "I'm alright thanks, Jack." isn't going to make things better.
Many volunteers may be grandmas and granddads on pensions who might really miss $80. Are we suggesting as a society that only people of means should be allowed to photograph their own kids?
There is also the priciple to consider of photographer doesn't imply terrorist ; nor should we need a blue card to 'prove' our 'innocence'.
Scotty
I remember fondly the times of yore... you know, when people were presumed innocent unless otherwise proved guiltly by twelve persons, good and true.
Scotty I'm a little offended that you are inferring that I have an "I'm all right" attitude. If this were the case I wouldn't have bothered to post the information as a "Heads Up" for the general notice of those affected by the incoming regulations.
I agree that in an ideal world we shouldn't need such a certificate, but largely thanks to the media we have been forced into the situation. The certificate is merely a means to try and cover your asre. It was interesting to note the program on SBS last night about Werewolves, it actually highlighted paedophilia going back to the 1500's.
abitfishy
18-01-2010, 8:12am
The way I interpret the requirements its not relevant for 99% of people......
Note: whose work meets our definition of child-related employment,
You are in child related-employment when:
you work in settings listed in the Commission’s legislation; and
your work primarily involves contact with children; and
your work involves direct contact with children; and
your contact is not directly supervised by a person having the capacity to direct you in the course of your employment – for example the person who has engaged you has the capacity to direct you, but other people around you do not.
The way I read primarily involves contact with children is if your area of specialisation was school groups, kids sports matches PRIMARILY. If you are a 'photographer' and sometimes take school groups, sports etc, its not required in my view. Specifically the last point about supervision, I would say in the majority of these cases you would have at least a club official/coach who would have the authority (for one of a better word) to supervise you.
I would say it is however relevant if you have a studio or what somewhere else where you may be ALONE with a child.
Thats not to say its a bad idea for peace of mind, not to mention a selling point if you can say you have a Working with Children police check certificate.
The way I interpret the requirements its not relevant for 99% of people......
The way I read primarily involves contact with children is if your area of specialisation was school groups, kids sports matches PRIMARILY. If you are a 'photographer' and sometimes take school groups, sports etc, its not required in my view. Specifically the last point about supervision, I would say in the majority of these cases you would have at least a club official/coach who would have the authority (for one of a better word) to supervise you.
Thats not to say its a bad idea for peace of mind, not to mention a selling point if you can say you have a Working with Children police check certificate.
Unfortunately, that's not fact. Two things come to mind, having had a blue card since they came out in Queensland many years ago...
One, as a photographer many of the hundreds of schools I visit insist on seeing a blue card before entering the school grounds or having any idea of the purpose of my visit. They know I'm a photographer.
Two, a recent case of a school bus driver in Queensland that had a blue card but had molested 23 children over 30 years and finally convicted. Blue cards cannot provide security or peace of mind and parents should be vigilant (as they always have been) without paranoia. Collective attention and peer support are the best tools and government sponsored money making schemes provide little assistance.
As I have said before a Bluecard only proves that you have no criminal convictions for child related things, and that you are prepared to go to the trouble to get one. If you are a volunteer also the sporting club etc has to authorise you, so, its a way that they have to credential their "workforce also"
Can those detractors suggest anything better, apart from nothing at all (which may not be a bad thing)?
abitfishy
18-01-2010, 9:06am
Unfortunately, that's not fact. .
My point was more the validity in relation to the legal requirement to have one.
But I do see that there would be many times where it may not be legally required but required by the group one may do work for. :th3:
All a police check can do is show that someone doesn't have any convictions in this area.....paedophiles are very good at NOT being detected.
My daughter was molested by someone.....he was investigated by the ploice but because she was so young and couldn't speak for herself they couldn't prove it was him. It had to have been, no-one else had the opportunity to do it.
This man has been a soccer referee in western suburbs of Sydney for years. He's had ample opportunity over those years to keep doing it to other children. He was reported to the referees association. Their response...."he hasn't had any convistions against him so the accusations prove nothing". They even went so far as to say that it was more than likely fabricated. YES I was furious but I'd done all I could to protect the children he had contact with.
So what will this mean to him? Nothing! He now referees adults but it still places him where young children are, where they are not necessarily supervised properly because parents & guardians get a false sense of security in these situations.
The ONLY thing that will protect our children is for all parents not to be complacent in supervising their children. Don't trust anyone with your child...try to be there with them and for them at all times.
A police check can show nothing (privacy laws) but only indicates that the person checked has not been convicted in any applicable area. Quite a number of convicted criminals legitimately have blue cards.
Scotty72
31-01-2010, 10:07pm
It may be an uncomfortable truth but... you, I and this guy should all be treated as innocent until proven otherwise in a court of law.
Nothing the soccer authorities can, or should do unless they have a legitimate, legal action against the man.
Scotty
All a police check can do is show that someone doesn't have any convictions in this area.....paedophiles are very good at NOT being detected.
My daughter was molested by someone.....he was investigated by the ploice but because she was so young and couldn't speak for herself they couldn't prove it was him. It had to have been, no-one else had the opportunity to do it.
This man has been a soccer referee in western suburbs of Sydney for years. He's had ample opportunity over those years to keep doing it to other children. He was reported to the referees association. Their response...."he hasn't had any convistions against him so the accusations prove nothing". They even went so far as to say that it was more than likely fabricated. YES I was furious but I'd done all I could to protect the children he had contact with.
So what will this mean to him? Nothing! He now referees adults but it still places him where young children are, where they are not necessarily supervised properly because parents & guardians get a false sense of security in these situations.
The ONLY thing that will protect our children is for all parents not to be complacent in supervising their children. Don't trust anyone with your child...try to be there with them and for them at all times.
A police check can show nothing (privacy laws) but only indicates that the person checked has not been convicted in any applicable area. Quite a number of convicted criminals legitimately have blue cards.
Exactly...its NOT going to stop someone offending again & again.
It may be an uncomfortable truth but... you, I and this guy should all be treated as innocent until proven otherwise in a court of law.
Nothing the soccer authorities can, or should do unless they have a legitimate, legal action against the man.
Scotty
A very tricky situation indeed.
I an involved with a referees association and there are numerous complaints and accusations leveled at referees every week. Whilst the majority of complaints are along the lines of "the ref is biased towards the other team", the more serious complaints are always followed up. Unfortunately, in some situations, there is little that can be done (in regards of resulting actions) apart from being aware of the accusation and formally noting it for future reference. Sometimes we will talk to a referee about accusations so they're aware that their actions may be being perceived incorrectly and/or if, heaven forbid they are guilt of the accusation, they might get a wake up call. We must always consider the line between "innocent until proven guilty" and "guilty until proven innocent".
Just like the police checks, until there is a legal proof or conviction, it is very difficult to take action.
Wow, there is certainly a lot to consider before heading off to the local junior football game hoping to get some images for the local tabloids. A new direction for me and some homework to do. I think obtaining a blue card will be my first consideration. A very informative thread :)
i just had a police check - all ok here - was for working at the kinder
So Cat, we don't have to look for a new moderator? No criminal record to speak of. :D
shanebaker
13-02-2010, 4:11pm
Kiwi
Can I ask which business category you ticked on the form please? I think it is a good idea but can't see any child-related business relevant to photography to choose. From the application form.
Type of child-related business for which a blue card is sought (please tick appropriate box);
1. health, counselling and support services
2. private teaching, coaching and tutoring
3. child care
4. education programs outside schools
5. child accommodation services,including homestays
6. providers of recreational activities such as sporting camps and programs (excluding
amusement parks)
7. operators of hostels for rural children
8. director of a governing body of a non-state school*
9. licensed care service
10.religious representatives
Thanks for your help.
Cheers
Shane
old dog
13-02-2010, 4:35pm
I worked as a cop back in the early 70`s then as a high school teacher up till 5 yrs ago when I retired. having to work with a couple of teachers who had been accused of being inappropriate toward kids was quite challenging as you never really knew for sure if the complaint was legit. I was in sydney earlier this week and caught the manly ferry to yes, you guessed it...manly. Had the camera but I felt like I couldn`t take any pics as it was fairly crowded and my D80 with the 17-135 on looked a tad big. Such a shame to feel like this as my motives were above board. Went and had fish and chips instead of togging.:)
Kiwi
Can I ask which business category you ticked on the form please? I think it is a good idea but can't see any child-related business relevant to photography to choose. From the application form.
Type of child-related business for which a blue card is sought (please tick appropriate box);
1. health, counselling and support services
2. private teaching, coaching and tutoring
3. child care
4. education programs outside schools
5. child accommodation services,including homestays
6. providers of recreational activities such as sporting camps and programs (excluding
amusement parks)
7. operators of hostels for rural children
8. director of a governing body of a non-state school*
9. licensed care service
10.religious representatives
Thanks for your help.
Cheers
Shane
Just been talking to the Blue Card people, and if I (as a casual tog) wanted one (not that I really need one but maybe handy), I would fill out Form B (Person Carrying on a Business) and tick box 6 "Providers of recreational activities such as sporting camps and programs (excluding amusement parks)", and looks like it costs $70 now.
Although I notice that a Volunteers classification is Free, so I am now thinking that could be an idea also, especially for more casual events.
In NSW the Institute of Teachers is being formed. Why? To give us the priveledge of paying $100+ a year for them to run checks.
[/QUOTE]
Teachers get police checks for free in NSW. However you can still be a teacher if you have a police record. It depends on the offense. Violent, Drug or Sex based crimes are out obviously but some "minor" crimes are still ok... Thats how I understand it anyway I could be wrong.
Cheers
Danny
shanebaker
25-06-2010, 3:39pm
Just to let everyone know how long it takes in QLD. I applied just after quizzing kiwi on the thread and pm in mid-late February. I just received my blue card last week. Just three days before the fundraiser I was doing at the school fete :(
Wouldn't want to be in a hurry.
Cheers
Shane
aaplant
27-06-2010, 7:12pm
Bill44 - Thanks for the pointer. Link seems to be down at the moment. The related pages are somewhat difficult to interpret, particularly relating to 'employment' or 'volunteer' status.
AAP
Scotty72
27-06-2010, 8:35pm
Teachers get police checks for free in NSW. However you can still be a teacher if you have a police record. It depends on the offense. Violent, Drug or Sex based crimes are out obviously but some "minor" crimes are still ok... Thats how I understand it anyway I could be wrong.
Cheers
Danny
It is all changing over the next few years, the NSW Institute of Teachers has been formed. At present, only 'new scheme' teachers are required to be members but, that wont last long.
Scotty
bitrusty
02-05-2014, 3:28pm
I looked into this in Nsw last year and was told that because were are not in charge of the children that we don't need a check done.It was only when you are the only adult there and in charge ie a teacher or leader of a group.
....It was only when you are the only adult there and in charge ie a teacher or leader of a group.
Not sure that's right. I've helped present R.F.S. courses to young cadets and each year supervise for year 12 H.S.C.. Am part of a group of people that do both these things and we all need a working with children check done.
bitsnpieces
07-05-2014, 11:04pm
After reading all this, I am definitely going into my local police station to find out more so I can make sure I'm all set here in Victoria.
Seems such a hassle though :(
More I look into Photography, more complications there are. lol
My only other concern at this point in time is what is considered for "commercial purposes", so hopefully the police can clear that up too.
peterb666
08-05-2014, 10:16am
After reading all this, I am definitely going into my local police station to find out more so I can make sure I'm all set here in Victoria.
Seems such a hassle though :(
The discussion has been about the NSW system but there is a Victorian equivalent. Details can be found http://www.workingwithchildren.vic.gov.au/
It is not the same as a police check. The checks in Victoria are done by the Victorian Department of Justice and not the police. Details of how this differs from a police check are shown on the website.
bitsnpieces
08-05-2014, 10:57am
Thank you Peter for the link - I presumed the Working with Children check would be involved, went in to the police station today to see if there was anything else, but the lady at the counter didn't know anything with regards to photography.
I guess I'll at least take the first step with the WwC card, then find out more from the VDoJ.
If there are any professionals out there in Melbourne who can shed some light down here too, would be awesome. :)
poorman
05-01-2015, 7:29am
I have one of these working with children cards as we at work " work in school yards sometimes. so would this be ok for this topic ???
DacrimL
05-01-2015, 5:00pm
Having just had to renew my working with children, there is a number of variations one can get. Usually the main one would be Volunteer Work and is therefore free, there are few others and one I included this time was
Commercial Photography of Children due to the fact that I am a volunteer cricket coach and am now combining the art of photography to the sport for prosperity reasons. Also there are quite a few of the parents buying the images as mementos of their children growing up, so this insures I am covered.
Part of the WWC check here in Victoria involves a police check.....if you have a record for certain types of crimes you are automatically rejected.
geoffsta
07-01-2015, 6:44pm
I also have a working with children, as I spend a bit of time in a child care centre doing maintenance and cleaning. I also do some of the photos for some of the functions they have there.
No one has ever asked for a WWC for photography though... Didn't even know there was one... :confused013
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