Thousands of birds paying a high price for green energy

[Bear Dale]

Thousands of birds paying a high price for green energyReading up on this and there is a massive amount of bird deaths.

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/ockhamsrazor/bird-strikes-at-wind-farms/4668750

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/wind-turbines-killing-endangered-birds

[blkmcs]

There is indeed a lot of bird deaths from a wide variety of causes.
https://www.carbonbrief.org/bird-death-and-wind-turbines-a-look-at-the-evidence


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960148112000857

[Tannin]

Don't be mislead by unscientific BS, Bear.

Notice that the ABC program you linked to is six years out of date. This same scare story about wind farms and birds gets recycled every couple of years, and you know what? You never see hard numbers. There is a reason: the actual numbers demonstrate beyond doubt that wind turbines are a very minor problem and that the real issue is power lines. This reality doesn't sit well with the agenda of the anti-renewables scare campaigners (mobs like the Waubra Foundation and Malcom madeyes Roberts) in the pay of the climate deniers, but they are expert at pretending to be conservationists when it suits their tactics.

Sadly, good people get caught up in the BS and propagate the falsehoods. Wind turbines do in fact hit birds from time to time and there is room for genuine concern about badly sited turbines. However, the impact of power lines is far worse. But the anti-wind farm nuts don't like to talk about that because Australia's power lines, in the main, were constructed to transmit electricity generated at coal and gas plants. Pointing out their impact on wildlife doesn't advance the anti-wind agenda, so they don't mention it.

(By the way, some years ago I was involved in objecting to the siting of turbines too close to Brolga breeding habitat at Stockyard Hill in Western Victoria. Our objections were rational and successful: the company moved the three or four danger turbines to other sites nearby and the wind farm went ahead without causing any major harm. Everyone happy.)

[Hawthy]

Bob Brown may be one of the "good people caught up in the BS" of the "anti-renewables scare campaigners" https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-25/bob-browns-opposition-to-wind-farm-labelled-hypocrisy/11345200

I fear that this thread will go down the same path as another recently discontinued climate change thread - discontinued because people were becoming strident - so I thought I would get in early.

Nothing that we do is without consequences. We just need to balance the beneficial consequences against the detrimental consequences. :)

[Tannin]

It was sad to see Bob Brown go down that path, Hawthy. But we should remember two things: (1) he is no longer a young man and we all lose our abilities as we age; (2) his primary objection isn't to the proposed Robbins Island Windfarm itself so much as it is to the proposal to run a massive overhead power transmission line all the way along the beautiful North-west Coast of Tasmania, straight through the middle of farms and communities. Bob Brown has been one of the wisest, most admirable people I have seen in Australian political life - and my memories go back 50-something years so I've seen a few - but I am increasingly doubtful of some of his recent decisions. He still has his heart in the right place but, frankly, it's looking like it's time he retired from public life.

(No reason why this thread should get acrimonious, by the way. I don't think there is too much to disagree on as the evidence is pretty plain.)

[Bear Dale]

It was sad to see Bob Brown go down that path, Hawthy. But we should remember two things: (1) he is no longer a young man and we all lose our abilities as we age; (2) his primary objection isn't to the proposed Robbins Island Windfarm itself so much as it is to the proposal to run a massive overhead power transmission line all the way along the beautiful North-west Coast of Tasmania, straight through the middle of farms and communities. Bob Brown has been one of the wisest, most admirable people I have seen in Australian political life - and my memories go back 50-something years so I've seen a few - but I am increasingly doubtful of some of his recent decisions. He still has his heart in the right place but, frankly, it's looking like it's time he retired from public life.

(No reason why this thread should get acrimonious, by the way. I don't think there is too much to disagree on as the evidence is pretty plain.)



Well he's quoted in the article -

"But former leader of the Greens, Bob Brown, has come out swinging against a giant new wind farm planned for Robbins Island, in the north-west corner of Tasmania.

He says it is in the wrong place, will ruin the view and kill endangered birds like the Tasmanian wedge-tail eagle and the white-breasted sea eagle that live on the island, and potentially migratory birds like the swift parrot and the orange-bellied parrot that travel between Tasmania and the mainland.
"We have alternatives for renewable energy. We don't have alternatives for extinct species of birds," Dr Brown told 7.30.

"We're in an age where it's predicted 30 per cent of Australia's birds will go to extinction this century because of human pressures. And we have to think about biodiversity."

[Mark L]

A month back back I had the chance to enjoy a presentation by Sean Dooley. Who?
He suggests that we have now learned better places to situate wind turbines for lower impact on birds. He was actually specifically ask about this subject and mentioned that in the U.S.A a billion birds die from flying into glass skyscrapers and this simply dwarfs any kill from wind farms. (50,000 estimate)
The night was cool and not based on 6 year old things.
Stuff about the Orange-bellied Parrot and wind farms was a not fact based and an attempt to stop the wind farms. Unfortunately it looks like this bird is heading to extinction anyway.:(.

[Tannin]

Well he's quoted in the article - "But former leader of the Greens, Bob Brown, has come out swinging against a giant new wind farm planned for Robbins Island .....

And in the original message he put out, he went on to say lots more about the gigantic power line, which was the major focus. I read that when it first came out ... oh ... maybe two or three months ago. But more recent second-hand reports leave stuff out if it doesn't fit a narrative.

[ameerat42]

^ and ^. I suppose that's right. It depends on what is reported.

[Bear Dale]

In his own written words -

Besides the impact on the coastal scenery, wind turbines kill birds. Wedge-tailed eagle and white-bellied sea eagles nest and hunt on the island. Swift parrots and orange-bellied parrots traverse the island on their migrations. Multiple species of international migratory, endangered and critically endangered shorebirds use the wetlands for six months of the year: Australian fairy tern, fork-tailed swift, little tern, white-throated needletail, ruddy turnstone, sharp-tailed sandpiper, sanderling, red knot, curlew sandpiper, red-necked stint, great knot, double-banded plover, greater sand plover, lesser sand plover, Latham’s snipe, bar-tailed godwit, eastern curlew, whimbrel, golden plover, grey plover, grey-tailed tattler, common greenshank, terek sandpiper, hooded plover. For which of these species will the wind farm be the thousandth cut?


https://www.bobbrown.org.au/tarkine_updates_090719

[arthurking83]

I'm with Tony on this one, just scare mongering.

If wind turbines had such a gross impact on birdlife, then by extension windmills would also have had the same effect over thousands of years they they've been used.
You can't have one effect without the other ... and history has shown us that birds have survived the impacts of wind mills .. which by common sense would dictate would me far more in sheer numbers around the world than there are power generation turbines!

And as for so called scientific studies on such topics ... first and foremost I want to know WHO paid for the study before it is to be respected as a scientific study!

[Bear Dale]

If wind turbines had such a gross impact on birdlife, then by extension windmills would also have had the same effect over thousands of years they they've been used.

Pretty big difference between a windmill and a wind turbine.

You don't believe that wind turbines kill birds?

[ameerat42]

Just saying...
Not major, but just things to watch out for that can derail arguments:

Don't be mislead by unscientific BS, Bear...
Is the warning in response to a situation, or is it pre-emptive?


Notice that the ABC program you linked to is six years out of date...
Is it really out-of-date, or just 6 years old? - Or worse, its age makes it unreliable? :eek:


Pretty big difference between a windmill and a wind turbine.

You don't believe that wind turbines kill birds?

What's the use of getting an answer to that question?
"Yes" or "No", how does it advance the discussion of any facts?
/Just saying...

[Mark L]

I'm with Tony on this one, just scare mongering.

If wind turbines had such a gross impact on birdlife, then by extension windmills would also have had the same effect over thousands of years they they've been used.
You can't have one effect without the other ... and history has shown us that birds have survived the impacts of wind mills .. which by common sense would dictate would me far more in sheer numbers around the world than there are power generation turbines!

And as for so called scientific studies on such topics ... first and foremost I want to know WHO paid for the study before it is to be respected as a scientific study!

Bob Brown is only really referring to this particular wind turbine and transmission lines on Robbin Island.
This should not be confused with him being against all wind turbines.
From same article Bear quotes, "The world needs energy efficiency and renewable energy to replace fossil fuels, and fast. However, as with the Harmony Hotel proposal, this Robbins Island wind farm is an aileron too far."

[Hawthy]

Bob Brown is only really referring to this particular wind turbine and transmission lines on Robbin Island.
This should not be confused with him being against all wind turbines.
From same article Bear quotes, "The world needs energy efficiency and renewable energy to replace fossil fuels, and fast. However, as with the Harmony Hotel proposal, this Robbins Island wind farm is an aileron too far."

It seems that Bob is selective in where turbines should be placed. I don't think it is about the birds. He is against wind turbines in remote places that might make those places no longer remote and pristine. Given the agitation of the Extinction Rebellion protesters about needing to declare an immediate climate emergency and their demands to move to zero net emissions by 2025, has Bob adopted a more conservative approach? He seems to want to take some time to find the right places for wind generation. There are shades of grey, even in the greens.

[Mark L]

It seems that Bob is selective in where turbines should be placed. I don't think it is about the birds. He is against wind turbines in remote places that might make those places no longer remote and pristine.
I don't see a problem with that.
Why not try and preserve remote and pristine places?? We have a wide land to do these things elsewhere.

[John King]

Pretty big difference between a windmill and a wind turbine.

You don't believe that wind turbines kill birds?

Biggest windmill we had on any of our properties was 24 feet diameter (about 8m).

Largest wind turbines today are 165-170 metres in diameter, and in huge clusters. No windmill I have ever seen was part of a cluster of such devices.

https://www.windpowermonthly.com/10-biggest-turbines

[arthurking83]

If we want to save bird deaths in large numbers, then remove, or stop building buildings! ... get rid of all cats in the world, stop producing all pollutants, stop destroying all habitats .. etc.

I didn't say that wind turbines don't cause bird deaths. Lots of things .... cats, cars, buildings ... just about everything we've done or made kill birds.
But if we want to stop killing birds, then lets look at the major causes before we persecute the minor ones.

IIRC hundreds of millions of birds die from cats, and hundreds of millions of birds die from building related deaths, and cars. Not the 'thousands' that windmills contribute.

Look at it this way: there are elements that help to reduce a range of issues(eg. wind farms) and there are things we do(eg. build 100 story glass buildings) that aren't necessary other than as a showcase as to what humans can do!
If one of those sectors had to stop doing it's things to help save birds from dying which would be the more appropriate development to eliminate?

And no one in their right mind would deny that windmills don't also kill birds.
Statistics don't exist on that issue because no one has ever commissioned a study, because there's no billion dollar a year 'interest group' with an agenda to pursue! :rolleyes:

[ricktas]

Bob Brown may be one of the "good people caught up in the BS" of the "anti-renewables scare campaigners" https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-25/bob-browns-opposition-to-wind-farm-labelled-hypocrisy/11345200

I fear that this thread will go down the same path as another recently discontinued climate change thread - discontinued because people were becoming strident - so I thought I would get in early.

Nothing that we do is without consequences. We just need to balance the beneficial consequences against the detrimental consequences. :)

That thread was closed after the mods had to delete several posts towards the end as they became heated and personal. Unfortunately the effect of us deleting the posts means members do no see the real reason the thread was closed.

[Gazza]

If we want to save bird deaths in large numbers, then remove, or stop building buildings! ... get rid of all cats in the world, stop producing all pollutants, stop destroying all habitats .. etc.

I didn't say that wind turbines don't cause bird deaths. Lots of things .... cats, cars, buildings ... just about everything we've done or made kill birds.
But if we want to stop killing birds, then lets look at the major causes before we persecute the minor ones.

IIRC hundreds of millions of birds die from cats, and hundreds of millions of birds die from building related deaths, and cars. Not the 'thousands' that windmills contribute.

Look at it this way: there are elements that help to reduce a range of issues(eg. wind farms) and there are things we do(eg. build 100 story glass buildings) that aren't necessary other than as a showcase as to what humans can do!
If one of those sectors had to stop doing it's things to help save birds from dying which would be the more appropriate development to eliminate?

And no one in their right mind would deny that windmills don't also kill birds.
Statistics don't exist on that issue because no one has ever commissioned a study, because there's no billion dollar a year 'interest group' with an agenda to pursue! :rolleyes:
Thanks Arthur; that would have to be one of the more sensible(ist) and certainly one of the most logical solutions I've ever read on the internet.
(I'm assuming you're referring to domestic and disowned feral cats that are creating havoc with all wildlife?)

A little off topic I know, sorry...just wanted to say, thanks - :th3:

[ricktas]

There is concern this year for the short-tailed shearwater (mutton bird). Millions of them generally migrate to Australia from Alaska each year, but not many have turned up in Aus this year. Research from Alaska suggests they have starved up there.

There is a lot more happening to our environment that is a threat to species beyond wind turbines.

[John King]

... get rid of all cats in the world,

Another cat hater ...

Interestingly, the single greatest mass extinction of small mammals and birds in Australia was when the third 'wave' of Aborigines introduced the dingo into this country.

What were you saying about cats ... ?

For the record, I have shot more feral cats than I care to remember, and believe that responsible cat ownership requires bringing them in one hour before sunset, and keeping them in until one hour after sunrise. Our cats have never been allowed outside without being under supervision, and wearing a harness with ball and chain attached.


stop producing all pollutants, stop destroying all habitats .. etc.

Totally agree. Get rid of the biggest pollutant of all, our species, which has quadrupled in number in the last 100 years. That's plague proportions in environmental terms.


I didn't say that wind turbines don't cause bird deaths. Lots of things .... cats, cars, buildings ... just about everything we've done or made kill birds.
But if we want to stop killing birds, then lets look at the major causes before we persecute the minor ones.

Humans, and our activities. Often careless activities.


IIRC hundreds of millions of birds die from cats,See above ...
and hundreds of millions of birds die from building related deaths, and cars. Not the 'thousands' that windmills contribute.

Source for quoted figure, please. And whether the bird is any kind of keystone species. The farce of the dusky Atlantic sparrow should have taught us all something, but I doubt that many have even heard of it ... Most of what I have read about this on the Internet was contradicted by a somewhat more informed study published in the Scientific American.


Look at it this way: there are elements that help to reduce a range of issues(eg. wind farms) and there are things we do(eg. build 100 story glass buildings) that aren't necessary other than as a showcase as to what humans can do!
If one of those sectors had to stop doing it's things to help save birds from dying which would be the more appropriate development to eliminate?

Where are the 7.6 Bn people supposed to be housed, Arthur? In single dwellings on 40 perch blocks?


And no one in their right mind would deny that windmills don't also kill birds.
Statistics don't exist on that issue because no one has ever commissioned a study, because there's no billion dollar a year 'interest group' with an agenda to pursue! :rolleyes:

You just answered several of my questions. Finally an admission that we just do not know a lot of things! However, I agree that we should apply the precautionary principle far more often than we do, particularly in relation to specific issues, rather than just as a sweeping generalisation.

[ricktas]

In his own written words -

Besides the impact on the coastal scenery, wind turbines kill birds. Wedge-tailed eagle and white-bellied sea eagles nest and hunt on the island. Swift parrots and orange-bellied parrots traverse the island on their migrations. Multiple species of international migratory, endangered and critically endangered shorebirds use the wetlands for six months of the year: Australian fairy tern, fork-tailed swift, little tern, white-throated needletail, ruddy turnstone, sharp-tailed sandpiper, sanderling, red knot, curlew sandpiper, red-necked stint, great knot, double-banded plover, greater sand plover, lesser sand plover, Latham’s snipe, bar-tailed godwit, eastern curlew, whimbrel, golden plover, grey plover, grey-tailed tattler, common greenshank, terek sandpiper, hooded plover. For which of these species will the wind farm be the thousandth cut?


https://www.bobbrown.org.au/tarkine_updates_090719

and the very next paragraph in his own written words too:

"The transmission lines are planned to cut through wild and scenic Tasmania, including the northeast Tarkine forests and (until local outrage led to a sudden change) the Leven Canyon, en route to Sheffield and then the new export cable beneath Bass Strait. Why not use the more direct, much less environmentally destructive route aligning the Bass Highway? Better still, in the name of private enterprise, why not UPC build its own cable under the Strait from Robbins Island straight to wherever?"

Selectively choosing what to quote is how the media manipulate. Tannin above raised the issue of the power lines being in the original statement by Mr Brown. So I add it here for completeness.

[ricktas]

Source for quoted figure, please.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_predation_on_wildlife the references are at the bottom. Some light reading for you :D

[ameerat42]

Gazza, you would then be tasked with providing new lyrics to fit...
"What's New [former familiar domestic feline]..." :p:p:p

-- And what about :tweety: ?

[John King]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_predation_on_wildlife the references are at the bottom. Some light reading for you :D

Rick, the lack of such a reference page on Wikipedia titled "Dog predation on wildlife" shows the inherent bias in such matters. About half of all humans love cats and dogs equally (self included). However, about half hate cats ...

There are psychological reasons for these figures - herd/pack animal versus solitary animal being one such. Many humans are incapable of existing/flourishing other than as a member of a herd or pack, and instinctively dislike or hate those who are true individuals. The latter is at the basis of team sports, such as football, religion and warfare ...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=Dog+predation+on+wildlife&ns0=1

I note that most researchers are accompanied by their DOG, which might blind side them as to the destruction caused by that species, the canids ...

[arthurking83]

.....

Source for quoted figure, please. .....

Like Rick posted .. link to wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_farm#Environmental_impact). this one on wind farms information tho.

scroll down to the environmental impact section.

To save the time doing so .. a small snippet ...


Habitat loss and habitat fragmentation are the greatest impact of wind farms on wildlife. There are also reports of higher bird and bat mortality at wind turbines as there are around other artificial structures. The scale of the ecological impact may or may not be significant, depending on specific circumstances. The estimated number of bird deaths caused by wind turbines in the United States is between 140,000 and 328,000, whereas deaths caused by domestic cats in the United States are estimated to be between 1.3 and 4.0 billion birds each year and over 100 million birds are killed in the United States each year by impact with windows.

[ricktas]

Rick, the lack of such a reference page on Wikipedia titled "Dog predation on wildlife" shows the inherent bias in such matters. About half of all humans love cats and dogs equally (self included). However, about half hate cats ...

There are psychological reasons for these figures - herd/pack animal versus solitary animal being one such. Many humans are incapable of existing/flourishing other than as a member of a herd or pack, and instinctively dislike or hate those who are true individuals. The latter is at the basis of team sports, such as football, religion and warfare ...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=Dog+predation+on+wildlife&ns0=1

I note that most researchers are accompanied by their DOG, which might blind side them as to the destruction caused by that species, the canids ...

I am sorry, I did not realise this was supposed to be a 'balance the scales' debate. Where dogs and cats negate each other out. Dog. especially wild ones, do kill wildlife and that is acknowledgegs, but the prior conversation in this thread was about cats. The fact dogs are predatory however does not negate the effects of cats. Or is this just an attempt at deflection?

[John King]

Rick, please read what I have actually written in this thread. There is no "... attempt at deflection" in anything I have written. An attempt at balance, perhaps - "deflection", no.

[Mark L]

I note that most researchers are accompanied by their DOG, which might blind side them as to the destruction caused by that species, the canids ...

Source for quoted this, please. :)

[John King]

Source for quoted this, please. :)

Observation of thousands of documentaries on the environment and environmental issues, Mark ... :nod:.

[Mark L]

Observation of thousands of documentaries on the environment and environmental issues, Mark ... :nod:.

You want others to provide where they get their info from and you offer this.
I reckon most researchers don't do documentaries so I'll observe that we have no idea if your scientific observation is valid:rolleyes:
Yep, I just helped with another diversion from the original point of this thread.

[ricktas]

You want others to provide where they get their info from and you offer this.
I reckon most researchers don't do documentaries so I'll observe that we have no idea if your scientific observation is valid:rolleyes:
Yep, I just helped with another diversion from the original point of this thread.

John will no longer be able to reply.

2 members have been using the PM system to make personal attacks on others, who have differing points of view to their own. One has now been banned. I am awaiting a reply from the second person explaining their actions before I and the mods decide what to do about the second member.

[ricktas]

And the other party has now been permanently banned from AP also, after they chose to ignore my email request to them for clarification of what was happening. They were given till 12 noon AEDT to respond, and didn't.