Camera Upgrade Question [Archive] - AusPhotography:: Australia's Premier Photography Forum::

arthurking83

12-05-2019, 11:13pm

Sounds like a relatively cheap upgrade path.
If you went Sony, you'd have to get new lenses sooner rather than later, and (from memory), you can get Nikon lens to Sony camera adapters, but AF isn't ideal, and I'm fairly sure eye AF doesn't work .. I think native AF Sony lenses are required to do so.

Z series has an Auto DX crop mode for just such a situation like you're thinking about .. so at the least your lenses would work on a Z6.

Not ideal tho.
35/1.8 Dx is a good lens, usually sharp even wide open.
Tammy tho .. use it for as long as you have it, but it'd be the first one I'd replace with a full frame 'equivalent'.

No other camera maker uses the Nikon lens mount type.
Same with Canon and Sony.
You do have multiple choices in the micro4/3rds sector tho .. Olympus and Panasonic both have lenses. Very few thirdparty options tho.
Many brands will have adapters tho(most if not all thirdparty) .. to allow inter brand camera/lens combos.

Looking at the image, I'd say focus was missed.
Either just plain old missed focus, maybe back or front focus, or possibly technique .. but focus was not ideally set in that image.
Going by some exif data and that you've revelaed: seems like the 35mm lens was used, at f/4.
I've used this lens some time back and found it super sharp, so f/4 would have(or should have) got you very very crisp detail in the image.
Hence why I think focus was missed.
I see no conclusive evidence that there is camera shake, and at 1/60s, there shouldn't have been any.
it's just soft, so that leaves one of two reasons.

1/. lens is just soft. maybe from day one, maybe from a knock or shock during the time you've had it.
2/. technique is incorrect for the ability. This isn't as bad as it sounds tho.

My technique is usually lacking, more often than optimal. I know this and I realise it, so I work around it using the cameras ability.
Reason I mention this is, it may be helpful to you too.
Basically, I seem to sway as I prep myself for a shot when handheld shooting. I've actually seen this in other peoples technique too.
My common response for those folks is to use Continuous focus mode, not single shot. In a Nikon that is focus mode set to AF-C, not AF-S.
Why: as you sway, and you have AF-S mode selected, the camera will set focus and in the split second between focus being set and the shot being taken, you may have swayed fore/aft of the plane of focus originally set .. rendering the image soft due to misfocus.
If you use AF-C mode instead .. you continually maintain half press pressure on the shutter release, as you do this the focus is continually adjusted(ie. continuous focus mode). So as you sway fore/aft of the plane of focus the camera compensates, and focus is more likely to be hit.

Remember focus isn't really a spot, it works in a plane. Doesnt' really matter what point you focus on, as long as the plane is set, focus will be achieved.
eg. in your image you want the eye in focus, the eye of the woman in the image is just about the same plane of focus as the buttons on the mans top, or the leading edge of his hoodie.
Also note that with the use of F/4 on the lens, and the distance shot from, if focus was 'in the region' of anywhere near the womans face, her eyes would have been in focus.
That is, you wouldn't have only got her eyes in focus, but her entire face and more. At a guess, I'd say even the tree in the background should have been in focus.

So this leads to either technique issues, or a not so well made version of this lens.

Do you have a tripod?

ameerat42

13-05-2019, 6:37am

I believe the Sony has an eye tracking feature which I believe Nikon might be implementing soon with a firmware...
Thanks for the explanation. Remember, the D90 has "face detection" (FD), a feature designed with similar intent.

I guess I'm wondering if other brands other than Nikon are better for the price, even if it means having to buy new lens. I'm thinking that having a system that ensures the eyes are in focus might be good for me being an amateur...
Not to detract from your reasons for seeking to upgrade, but I do not think this would be the ultimate solution to any focus problems you may have.
See AK's reasons for this, but if you already use FD that may be contributing to the problem. You have to work out what the focusing problems are.
You can still do this with your present system in preparation for getting a new one. You could then transfer your knowledge to using that one. You
can start a separate thread on this issue in Shooting Help. (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/forumdisplay.php?178-Shooting-Help)

Another way to ask my question would be: If someone was just starting out in photography and wanted a good budget mirrorless camera, what would you recommend (body and lens) as a starting point which they can add to as funds allow? I only mention I have a D90 in case it was a close call between the Nikon z6 and some other brand and already having Nikon based lens swayed the result...
A separate question which I'll leave to others to reply to.

The above photo looks ok at first glance but when you zoom in, their faces are really out of focus.

Perhaps it's because I used f4, perhaps my hands shake too much to use 1/60th of a second shutter, but I wish my photos were crisper...
Refer to above reply about focus.

...
Looking at the image, I'd say focus was missed.
Either just plain old missed focus, maybe back or front focus, or possibly technique .. but focus was not ideally set in that image.
...
1/. lens is just soft. maybe from day one, maybe from a knock or shock during the time you've had it.
2/. technique is incorrect for the ability. This isn't as bad as it sounds tho.
...

I just thought that the highlighted bit would be a good 3rd point, AK.

arthurking83

13-05-2019, 7:21am

Don't have a D90 so can't confirm .. but I think Face Detect only works in live view mode .. which means you can't use it like a proper camera, and you gott'a hold it out in front of 'ya like a P&S.

@ Am; point 1/. encompasses the back/front focus possibility for the lens.

We'll wait till the OP replies to some of the questions and take it from there.

MadMax1412

13-05-2019, 10:08am

I had the camera in either auto mode or portrait mode and auto focus on.

I'm at work at the moment so can't confirm the autofocus settings but I usually aim, half press til I get the beep and continue to press.

Being in the centre of the frame, I would have thought the auto focus system would have selected them.

BTW, never heard of Face Detect and I don't use Live View. I tried it and found it awkward.

MadMax1412

13-05-2019, 4:59pm

Ok, so I've got home and decided to take some test shots with the Nikkor DX AF-S 35mm f/1.8G.

I did the test in "pairs" - basically setting the auto focus and then doing a shot in "auto" mode and then one in "Portrait" mode. I did notice that if I changed the auto-focus settings in menu, they changed automatically when I changed to Portrait, so I had to remember to change to portrait first and then go back into the menu and change the auto-focus settings. For most shots, the auto focus points were on her body but with the single point focus, I aimed the red square at her face, half held the shutter, adjusted the shot and completed the shutter press.

Hopefully this all makes sense. In the menu, I set the A2 menu item to "Normal Zone". rather than "Wide Zone". Also in the top LCD screen, it's set to AF-A.

Photo 1 - Menu item A1 (AF-Area mode) set to Auto Area. Menu Dial set to Auto.

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Photo 2 - Menu item A1 (AF-Area mode) set to Auto Area. Menu Dial set to Portrait.

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- - - Updated - - -

Photo 3 - Menu item A1 (AF-Area mode) set to Dynamic. Menu Dial set to Auto.

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Photo 4 - Menu item A1 (AF-Area mode) set to Dynamic. Menu Dial set to Portrait.

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- - - Updated - - -

Photo 5 - Menu item A1 (AF-Area mode) set to Single Point. Menu Dial set to Auto.

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Photo 6 - Menu item A1 (AF-Area mode) set to Single Point. Menu Dial set to Portrait.

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ameerat42

13-05-2019, 5:13pm

MadMax1412

13-05-2019, 5:15pm

Attachment problem: In your "Attachments" pane of your Upload Manager and also in the
"Manage Attachments" list, I see only the 5 images that are visible here (now). The other
ones may be in your "Assets" pane, or you may need to re-upload them.

To fix this post as last resort, delete the ATTACH codes for the ones that didn't work, and
re-do those at the positions in the text that you want.

I tried that and some worked and some didn't.

Originally it told me I could only do 5 photos per post, so I tried to break it up to 3 posts, but when I did the 2nd one, it automatically joined it to the 1st one with words "-- updated --".

On my PC, if you click on the words (eg Attachment 139568) it opens in a new window.

I'll try editing them again. Perhaps it might work for some more.

edit - nope. Only allows 5 pictures to be done, although I could now do it in this post.

Photo 3 - Menu item A1 (AF-Area mode) set to Dynamic. Menu Dial set to Auto.

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Photo 4 - Menu item A1 (AF-Area mode) set to Dynamic. Menu Dial set to Portrait.

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Lance B

14-05-2019, 4:43pm

At the moment, you are using DX format, which is a cropped sensor size compared to the Z6 which is a FF sensor. I would not necessarily stick with Nikon just because you have the lenses as they are for DX and are not suitable for a FF camera and thus will need to change lenses anyway.

You can stick with a cropped sensor and still go mirrorless with say Fuji or Olympus which *may* be a cheaper alternative than going FF with a Nikon or Sony (or Canon for that matter) but you would need to check their range out to see the cost etc. The Nikon or Sony (or Canon) FF mirrorless will give you optimal IQ but you may not need to go that route as a cropped sensor will still give superb results, probably better than you have now. Much of it depends on lenses as well.

Yes, Nikon is releasing a firmware upgrade on the 16th May, 2 days away, that is supposed to give "eye AF".

I am a Nikon user and have the Nikon Z7 (higher Mp version of the Z6) and associated lenses and think it is a fantastic camera, the IQ results are stunning. The only limitation being my ability! I am probably a little biased towards Nikon, but a Nikon may not fit what you require for budget, features, ergonomics or ease of use (menu ease etc). These are the things you need to look at to ascertain whether a camera fit those requirements. Does the Z6 fit those requirements?

MadMax1412

14-05-2019, 7:00pm

At the moment, you are using

The Nikon or Sony (or Canon) FF mirrorless will give you optimal IQ but you may not need to go that route as a cropped sensor will still give superb results, probably better than you have now. Much of it depends on lenses as well.

What would be the main advantages of a FF over a cropped sensor.

Lately I've been disappointed in my photos when I get home and zoom in on the PC. They are so blurry.

A lot of that may be my technique but as shown above, when using auto or portrait mode and different AF modes, the results are similar.

I remember when I first got the D90 with the twin lens kit and I could zoom in and see individual eye lashes nice and sharp. So perhaps it's my lenses as I sold them and got a prime plus a zoom that covered a wider range. Perhaps it's cause I'm a lot older and at 51 I might have some unsteadiness that becomes apparent in the photos.

I watch Jared Polin on YouTube and saw a video where a high percentage of award winning photos were taken using a Sony a7 III (something like 50%) followed by Canon and Nikon. Prices seem competitive so just don't know what's best but thought eye AF could help me overcome my limitations (either physical or ability).

I find it hard to remember all the settings a camera needs to be at depending on the shooting. Eg going from shooting portrait shots of my family (high percentage) to landscape and then action shots (my daughter at school sports carnival). By that I mean doing things like changing auto focus from AF-C to AF-S or whatever.

That's why I use a lot of "preset" settings on the dial (auto, action, portrait). The only time I try manual settings is when I want to blur out the background to make the subject "pop" so I go into aperture mode and set it to s lowish number. I remember from my old Fuji film SLR the lens had 2 lines on the barrel for each setting and these went to the distance ring, so you could focus on something and then look at those lines and see (for example) that everything from 1 foot to 3 foot would be in depth of field. I hope that makes sense.

Basically I'm an amateur wanting to take better than point and shoot photos. I know I won't be an award winning photographer, but do like taking great shots and taking pride in them. My extended family look to me to take photos at family gatherings etc.

Sorry for the long post. Just wanted to explain why I'm unhappy with my current photos (see previous blurry photos), what my intended use is and my level of knowledge of SLR's.

John King

14-05-2019, 7:58pm

arthurking83

15-05-2019, 7:24am

What would be the main advantages of a FF over a cropped sensor.
.....

ISO, and hence image quality gains in lower light for a given aperture setting. Also shallower DoF for a given FoV(field of view)

Disadvantages of large sensor over smaller sensor are the size of device(to a degree), and deeper DoF for a set FoV.
I've always questioned the size advantage, and I recommend folks to ignore it.
Cost is a major advantage to the smaller sensors tho.

Upshot of above: if you want to shoot portraits in relative darkness, larger format will give better image quality.
If you want to shoot landscapes and need to hike a trail for days on end .. crop sensor is the better gear.
For many of us 'in betweeners' who simply want an overall camera that does all manner of different stuff, only you can decide where an expected advantage is to your benefit.

Don't concern yourself with what 'others do', and by that I mean, it as a reference to Jared Polin and any information on award winning photos using this and or that .. etc.
Same with the you tube video linked too in the last reply.
1/. what others do, doesn't really apply to you and your situation.
2/. concentrate on your specific needs/abilities/requirements/etc.

With respect to 'awards' .. the primary factor with achieving awards is luck. Luck in the sense that the winners had to have many factors align perfectly for them to win those awards. Note that recent events show that some awards winner should never have been awarded those results anyhow! .. but for all intents and purposes, don't use those types of stats as a solution to a problem.
Re read item 2/. above .. if you have an issue with something, worry more about the issue, which may require a very simple fix, rather than trying to find an answer by looking elsewhere.

I asked in my last long(sorry!) reply .. do you have a tripod?
We can set you up to do some very simple tests to determine if you gear is in 'not ideal condition'.

You need a tripod. Everything else you may need to test you will more than likely have, but the tripod is a MUST!

The test will take you roughly 5 - 10 mins of your time, and we can determine if you camera or lens(es) are operating ineffectively.

One last thing: what software are you using? do you shoot in NEF or jpg mode in camera.
Highly recommended. With the D90, use Nikon's ViewNX2 software, or CaptureNX-D.
If CNX-D get the very latest version, so you may need to download from Nikon. I think ViewNX2 is still available from Nikon as a download, it's no longer supported version you want is about v2.10.3 64bit if your computer is 64bit(also assuming Windows PC too).

Also, if you prefer, you can PM me, and I can explain the test process via PMs instead. I just usually prefer to keep it all in public view as it may help others in future too.

Lance B

15-05-2019, 8:41am

What would be the main advantages of a FF over a cropped sensor.

Lately I've been disappointed in my photos when I get home and zoom in on the PC. They are so blurry.

A lot of that may be my technique but as shown above, when using auto or portrait mode and different AF modes, the results are similar.

I remember when I first got the D90 with the twin lens kit and I could zoom in and see individual eye lashes nice and sharp. So perhaps it's my lenses as I sold them and got a prime plus a zoom that covered a wider range. Perhaps it's cause I'm a lot older and at 51 I might have some unsteadiness that becomes apparent in the photos.

I watch Jared Polin on YouTube and saw a video where a high percentage of award winning photos were taken using a Sony a7 III (something like 50%) followed by Canon and Nikon. Prices seem competitive so just don't know what's best but thought eye AF could help me overcome my limitations (either physical or ability).

I find it hard to remember all the settings a camera needs to be at depending on the shooting. Eg going from shooting portrait shots of my family (high percentage) to landscape and then action shots (my daughter at school sports carnival). By that I mean doing things like changing auto focus from AF-C to AF-S or whatever.

That's why I use a lot of "preset" settings on the dial (auto, action, portrait). The only time I try manual settings is when I want to blur out the background to make the subject "pop" so I go into aperture mode and set it to s lowish number. I remember from my old Fuji film SLR the lens had 2 lines on the barrel for each setting and these went to the distance ring, so you could focus on something and then look at those lines and see (for example) that everything from 1 foot to 3 foot would be in depth of field. I hope that makes sense.

Basically I'm an amateur wanting to take better than point and shoot photos. I know I won't be an award winning photographer, but do like taking great shots and taking pride in them. My extended family look to me to take photos at family gatherings etc.

Sorry for the long post. Just wanted to explain why I'm unhappy with my current photos (see previous blurry photos), what my intended use is and my level of knowledge of SLR's.

FF generally gives you better dynamic range, better high ISO ability and the ability to get shallower DOF. However, this is more than likely not what is limiting your images.

The number of award winning shots by a Sony A7III is pretty much irrelevant as they are all capable of award winning results. However, I would question the fact that 50% are from Sony because the most camera are still Canon by a huge margin and thus most will still come from Canon. It might just be a particular set of images being entered in the particular competition or that those people are more motivated to enter a competition or whatever.

You should still be able to get great photos from your current set up so, it might be your techniques and maybe you just need to sharpen up your skills. It can take a while to get yourself decent techniques and learn how to get the best from your camera.

ameerat42

15-05-2019, 9:22am

First, a point about on-line info: it requires a lot of interpretation and lashings of context.
I certainly agree with what has been said above about that video.

Second: the discussion has bifurcated into, and sometimes recombines, two questions:
camera upgrade, and focusing problems (as part of general camera technique).

Beware that "better equipment" alone will not guarantee better pictures. It may even do
the opposite: make you lose interest after a lot of cost. I think Lance's last line above is
correct. - You should get good pics with the D90 and at least one of the two lenses you
have. (Only because I don't know about them.)

Testing times:
Have you always had this soft focusing problem that you describe with this system?
I notice you used f/2.8 in the shots above. Have you tried them with other f-stops?
Perhaps do a number of static test shots. Set up a test pattern a few metres away
and photograph it at different settings (mainly of aperture). Use Auto Focus mode at
first, then try some with Manual Focus. This will test if the AF is out. You can even use
an extended object, like a vase of flowers, but don't change the camera-subject distance
for comparative shots, so use a tripod.

For a test pattern approach, this link (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/tips-and-solutions/how-to-test-your-lens) appears useful.
If you discern some focus discrepancy, post it up with photos in a new thread.

arthurking83

15-05-2019, 11:43am

Because it came up again in the discussion, we'll take some time to disseminate this claim that 50% of photo awards are shot by the A7III.

First thing: I remember Jared Polin as the yelling chap that seems to 'sell himself' using a rather unorthodox approach(the yelling!!), as opposed to the more traditional method of using quality information.
My first instinct having briefly seen a video of his was to shut it down quickly.
If you want quality data on things Nikon, Thom Hogan is a good source for 'ya.
if you really need video, check out Matt Granger. MG is OK, not brilliant, but at least he's level headed and needs no gimmicky garbage to sell himself. He seems to deal more so with higher priced gear than mere mortal priced stuff tho.
Thom does offer some advice re the cheaper end gear tho(not a lot, but enough).

As for the awards.
Without even having to search into it, I'd say there's a 99% chance that the photography award referred too is likely to be the Sony World Photography event.
Think about that for a sec. While there will undoubtedly be a varied mix of brands and models of camera entered .. for a Sony sponsored award .. really, does it surprise you that 50% are A7III's?
You don't expect that Sony would market the event vigorously to their already captured market? Those folks that may have recently bought an A7III are probably more likely to enter the comp.
Would you expect other brands to push this event .... to advertise a Sony sponsored event?

Logically it's not hard to put 2 and 2 together there!

A more relevant award event: World Press Photographer. Look into it if you will.
Results .. pretty much 90% Canon and Nikon. it varied in some years as to who was on top, but predominantly Canon.
If you were to gauge a world award event as a basis to choose a camera, this one would be it. No manufacturer skewed results here.
In the last 5 years of their operation, zero .. none, zip! .. Sony A7III cameras in their top 20 winners list.
A few A7rII results .. over just the last 4 years. I think of those results .. maybe 3 or 4 in total(in 4 years!).
If you choose your gear according to an award winning result, then you probably want a Canon 5D MkIII.

it's important to filter out the carp from the jewels when it comes to 'internet info' .. especially now that it's heavily commercialised.
While some of us here have a bias, or preference towards one brand or model over another, the fact that it then gets debated is the filter you need to sift the good info from the bad.

MadMax1412

16-05-2019, 4:06am

Hey guys

Due to work, I haven't had much time to get back to this, so probably won't get back to testing the issue until the weekend. Still enjoying your responses but will reply then.

MadMax1412

16-05-2019, 4:25pm

Found an hour to take some photos and post a reply.

Yes, Nikon is releasing a firmware upgrade on the 16th May, 2 days away, that is supposed to give "eye AF".

I am a Nikon user and have the Nikon Z7?

Let me know what you think after you’ve upgraded your firmware and done some testing.

With respect to 'awards' .. the primary factor with achieving awards is luck. Luck in the sense that the winners had to have many factors align perfectly for them to win those awards. Note that recent events show that some awards winner should never have been awarded those results anyhow! .. but for all intents and purposes, don't use those types of stats as a solution to a problem.

I only mentioned the awards because when I (and probably a lot of the general public), think of professional photographers, we would first think of either Canon or Nikon. Yes I know Sony etc do cameras but wouldn’t have thought people who use them for work (and could get awards for such work) would use them. Thus it made me wonder if their cameras are as good as Canon and Nikon.

One last thing: what software are you using? do you shoot in NEF or jpg mode in camera.
Highly recommended. With the D90, use Nikon's ViewNX2 software, or CaptureNX-D.
If CNX-D get the very latest version, so you may need to download from Nikon. I think ViewNX2 is still available from Nikon as a download, it's no longer supported version you want is about v2.10.3 64bit if your computer is 64bit(also assuming Windows PC too).

I shoot in RAW and JPG and for most of my “happy snaps”, if the JPG photo looks ok, I just use that. If I think I need to tweak something, I use Corel AfterShot Pro 3 with the RAW images. I don’t know enough about post production, or have a big (ie constant) use for it that I can justify paying a subscription for Lightroom etc.

That being said, the photos above are straight out of the camera and only cropped to this forum’s size requirements using Paint.NET.

I asked in my last long(sorry!) reply .. do you have a tripod?
We can set you up to do some very simple tests to determine if you gear is in 'not ideal condition'.

You need a tripod. Everything else you may need to test you will more than likely have, but the tripod is a MUST!

Here is a photo using the Nikkor DX AF-S 35mm f/1.8G on a tripod. There’s no Anti-Vibration button on this lens, so it’s not a factor. I also used the timer so there’s no chance it was me pressing the button.

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This photo was taken hand-held using the Tamron 18-270mm F/3.5-6.3 DI II, standing in the same spot as the tripod. From memory, the camera focused on the edge of her arms and legs (I remember seeing 3 squares flash in those spots)

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I notice you used f/2.8 in the shots above.

Just to be clear about the above photos. I didn’t choose any settings for aperture, shutter speed or ISO. This was all chosen by the camera as I selected either “auto” or “Portrait” from the selection dial.

Have you tried them with other f-stops?
Perhaps do a number of static test shots. Set up a test pattern a few metres away
and photograph it at different settings (mainly of aperture). Use Auto Focus mode at
first, then try some with Manual Focus. This will test if the AF is out. You can even use an extended object, like a vase of flowers, but don't change the camera-subject distance for comparative shots, so use a tripod.

For a test pattern approach, this link (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/tips-and-solutions/how-to-test-your-lens) appears useful.
If you discern some focus discrepancy, post it up with photos in a new thread.

Running out of time today, so I will attempt this on the weekend.

ameerat42

16-05-2019, 4:53pm

MadMax1412

16-05-2019, 6:38pm

MMax. In the interim with those UN-displayed attachments, I notice that the 1st and second
are quite suitably focused. As before, you have an hour before they disappear as attachable
assets. FWIW these too were taken at f/2.8. (I know camera selects f-stop in this mode.)

Good luck attaching them.

Yeah I had to dash to take my daughter to Netball, and have just got back and immediately came to try to fix it, but my editing of post option not there. I'll re-do them here and hope they work.

Here is a photo using the Nikkor DX AF-S 35mm f/1.8G on a tripod. There’s no Anti-Vibration button on this lens, so it’s not a factor. I also used the timer so there’s no chance it was me pressing the button.

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The above photo might look ok, but if you zoomed in on the face on a PC, it seems "soft". I would like sharp photos especially around the eyes etc.

This photo was taken hand-held using the Tamron 18-270mm F/3.5-6.3 DI II, standing in the same spot as the tripod. From memory, the camera focused on the edge of her arms and legs (I remember seeing 3 squares flash in those spots)

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I just feel the face should be sharper. Don't forget that I'm an amateur, so I trust my camera to take sharp shots if I just want to grab it, put it in Auto or Portrait and take a quick family snap. Isn't that the point of cameras having those options?

If anyone wants to download the original JPG or NEF file that came straight off the D90, the links are below:

Nikkor JPG - https://drive.google.com/open?id=1T1ddTWw0LRJro5siPV5rv76HGgz9gjKJ
Nikkor NEF - https://drive.google.com/open?id=1q3PSfHrnhO20VnKlWEF1q3UeQCrX0qlC
Tamron JPG - https://drive.google.com/open?id=1rHaO-8PIqKJXcMMvhGatCSDhOhPjhaYp
Tamron NEF - https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qrlNG5hPZd6G8E1IRc4F6K3olwLAeN5T

Anyway, I'm off to bed. 3:30am starts means early to bed :-)

Testing mentioned above will probably be done on the weekend, most likely Sunday due to morning sports for the daughter, housework and gardening etc on Saturday. No rest for the wicked.

arthurking83

16-05-2019, 10:55pm

LOL! .. I used to dream of 3:30AM starts!

.. anyhow. FWIW: I have a sneaking suspicion that your 35mm is backfocusing a little. That's a possible kind'a'sort'a maybe .. not even sure if I'm sure that I'm not sure. So don't take that to mean that it is.

So I'll describe an easy test method for you to do.

Re: soft/blurry images. Image is on the brighter side of the exposure range. Don't take that to me it's bright ... it's just brighter than 'ideal'.
Note tho, there is technically no such thing as an idea exposure .. it's a moving target .. we decide what it an ideal exposure .. that is what you think is ideal .. maybe different to what I think is ideal .. etc, etc.

Exposure can actually affect the 'sharpness' of an image. Sounds strange, but true. But it's not what you think .. that is, you can't make a crappy cheap lens look sharp by varying exposure.
But you can make a sharp image look soft .. ish .. by exposing a tad too bright. \
Contrast is one of the things we perceive as sharpness. So when an image has a bit more contrast, that usually equates in our imagination as a bit more sharpness. Obviously it's not the only way we perceive sharpness, camera shake/movement and obvious blurriness is of importance too, but sometimes an image looks soft, when it's really sharp enough .. and we think it's not sharp.
Almost every lens we read up on in reviews that gets accolades for sharpness is also a contrasty rendering lens.
But if a lens is less contrasty, say by design .. then many folks think it's not sharp. In fact it usually is ... PP by just adding a bit of contrast and dropping exposure can make the world of difference.

I mentioned software primarily because your software use is obliterating all the exif data .. so we have zero idea of how your shooting your camera.
I mentioned Nikon's ViewNX2 and CaptureNX-D, because no matter what you do, and what type of image your resizing/editing .. it doesn't remove any exif at all(unless you tick a small box for it to do so).
Also(and this is the important part of my software commentary) .. Nikon's software allows you to edit the Picture Control settings AFTER the shot .. just like you do in camera.
And your softness issue may well be just a camera setting issue .. ie. remember the comments just above re brightness/contrast and sharpness!

So the basic idea(and what I've done over the years, and still do) .. take shot, open in ViewNX2(mainly). Sometimes CaptureNX2. Very rarely in CNX-D(but doing more of that now that it's getting better).
Primary reason is the Picture Controls.
Don't worry too much about Picture Controls and tone rendering for now, other than you use it to initially edit your image without actually editing it.
This is basically what they are. pre editing .. editing! Think of it as the editing you don't do, to minimise the editing you may need too.
All cameras do their internal tone editing .. every camera. Has too. There's no option. Even on raw files.
Nikon software follows the camera settings. other software(ie. non Nikon brands) .. don't use Nikon's tone settings(ie. the Picture Controls).
Other software also does pre editing tone editing .. also has too .. otherwise you really don't get an image. Other software(Adobe/Corel/Paint.net/etc) they all HAVE to add their tone edits to open the image. In other software this is called 'profile' or 'preset'.
It's something that they all have to do. Nikon's Picture Control is exactly the same process .. just done how Nikon thought it best too. But you can edit this process to your liking.

This is the main reason I recommend Nikon users to use Nikon's software .. makes editing so much more 'nothing' or less ... easier in many ways.
FWIW: what I mean by my term makes editing 'so much more nothing' .. means that you can do some far out massively processed images by doing no editing at all.
Sorry getting off topic here, but take it for granted that there is a lot of processing/tweaking ability in these in camera settings that you don't really need any other software like Corel or Paint.net .. etc.
Only reason you need Nikon software it to edit the in camera settings.
Only reason I mention this complex stuff is that it helps to find detail(remember exposure may have hidden detail/sharpness/contrast) .. so this stuff is handy to now about.

As for the above images. #1 Nikkor lens .. looks OK .. just a tad bright(contrast) .. I'm sure I could cobble up some tweaks to make that image look sharper.
#2 .. looks backfocused(but again this depends on far too many variables to say with certainty. Why does it look backfocused? look at the leaves behind girl .. her right ear .. our left shoulder. There's more edge detail in those leaves than in the girls eyes, mouth .. etc.

I then downloaded the NEF files.
First stop was to drop exposure(not brightness!).

Nikkor2_ exposure edit only
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With this image, the only change was -1.3Ev exposure in VNX2.

Notice that her face looks less 'angel' like .. darker .. more lines(around mouth and cheeks .. more moody/contrast/etc.
I have a 4K monitor .. very good quality and I can definitely say there's more detailed look around her eyes .. just with lower exposure.
I'll add some very basic editing(will need a brightness increase to counter the darker moody feel with lower exposure) .. etc, etc.

Nikkor2_proper edit
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This one is a proper edit.
Like I said, simple button pushing, choose Picture Control( I chose Portrait). Choose WB(I went shade or cloudy, but changed value to 7000K). Added some sharpness(+4). Added brightness(+4). Added contrast(+2)
Set protect highlight (50). Set Protect shadows(35). Crop(this look longest to try to match your cropped image.

I'll send you a PM with the view to get the Nikkor.NEF file back to you to load onto your PC. What I recommend you do, is download and install ViewNX2(for now).

ViewNX 2.10.3 Download page (https://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/download/sw/20.html)
Scroll down, click accept, click country region, etc, etc.

The edits I've made in the NEF will only show up in VNX2(maybe VNX-D .. can't remember).
You will then see the edits I made to the image .. a guide I suppose.
I'll also explain how to do the testing for focus accuracy too.
Also, reason for asking about tripod .. not to take shots like the one above with tripod .. for doing the simple testing .... when you can.
Also important .. what model/brand tripod(will help me to explain more accurately for the test).

Brigitte

18-05-2019, 7:16pm

I also shoot with Nikon - D7000 and D7500 I would suggest you check out Steve Perry who uses Nikon - https://backcountrygallery.com/ his videos and e books are excellent. I got onto him when I learned how to do back button focus, this made a huge improvement to my photography. Also Auto modes leave the camera in charge not the operator. Try to get what you have working correctly before you rush in and buy new equipment. I'm not a professional and like you have learned through reading and practice.

ricktas

19-05-2019, 8:32am

IMHO you should be getting far better images than you are. Most superzooms are of (very) questionable image quality. ...

This video should help to inform your decisions. It discusses the difference between huge prints made from images taken with a Canon 5D MkIV and an Olympus E-M1 MkII. Cut to the chase at about 9 minutes if you already know the other stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGn3yPl59ZM

tl:dr - there is no discernible difference.

Agree with John. I suspect your lens is the cause here. Spending your money on a new lens might well be what you need to do, rather than a new camera.

Even look at something like the 50mm 1.4. It is a cheap lens in the scheme of things, but for portraiture, it is a doozie.

Getting a new camera (and lens) might solve your problem, but you might be able to improve your photography without doing so.

ricktas

19-05-2019, 8:40am

arthurking83

19-05-2019, 10:06am

.....

So let us know if you have a filter on the lens, remove it, and try taking photos again.

:th3:

John King

19-05-2019, 10:53am

Agree with John. I suspect your lens is the cause here. Spending your money on a new lens might well be what you need to do, rather than a new camera.

Even look at something like the 50mm 1.4. It is a cheap lens in the scheme of things, but for portraiture, it is a doozie.

Getting a new camera (and lens) might solve your problem, but you might be able to improve your photography without doing so.

Good suggestion by Rick.

My niece has a D90. They are a capable camera, and can take excellent photos. She has the cheap but good 18-105 kit lens on it. Good combo.

MadMax1412

19-05-2019, 1:41pm

Another question as I have looked at your photos above and was trying to work out the cause.

Do you have a filter screwed to the front of this lens? Like a UV filter for example.. as protection for the lens? If so, remove it and try again. UV filters serve no purpose other than to degrade image quality if the UV filter is not really high quality. UV flitering is not needed with digital cameras. It was needed for some film back in the day. Your lens front element is hardened and whilst it can break, it is not fragile and delicate and does not need protection.

So let us know if you have a filter on the lens, remove it, and try taking photos again.

Yes, I do have a Marumi UV filter on the front. I did this for 2 reasons (don't forget I'm no expert so try following advice I read) that UV filter will help make better looking colours and will protect lens. I will try some photos without it.

Arthurking83, my tripod is an Optex t-560. I have got your PM's and will try doing the test shots soon. Given the above info/suggestion, I will have the UV filter off.

arthurking83

19-05-2019, 4:07pm

Yes, I do have a Marumi UV filter on the front. I did this for 2 reasons (don't forget I'm no expert so try following advice I read) that UV filter will help make better looking colours and will protect lens. I will try some photos without it....

Like Rick said, remove it. Further to that advice is to pack it away ... forever.
Try taking all your images now without it.

Arthurking83, my tripod is an Optex t-560. I have got your PM's and will try doing the test shots soon. Given the above info/suggestion, I will have the UV filter off.[/QUOTE]

OK. searched that brand/model of tripod.
I highly recommend that you keep the tripod as short as possible. If you have to elevate it to the same height as the focus target .. by placing it on some other thing that's solid(like a bench, verandah steps .. etc) and your focus target a bit lower to compensate for the lack of tripod height ... then better.

ricktas

19-05-2019, 5:15pm

Yes, I do have a Marumi UV filter on the front. I did this for 2 reasons (don't forget I'm no expert so try following advice I read) that UV filter will help make better looking colours and will protect lens. I will try some photos without it.

Arthurking83, my tripod is an Optex t-560. I have got your PM's and will try doing the test shots soon. Given the above info/suggestion, I will have the UV filter off.

Take the filter off and throw it... and try to take photos again.

UV filters do nothing to protect your lens or improve your image quality (IQ). In fact the opposite. UV filters can and do degrade your image results. Looking forward to hearing what results you get once you remove that filter.

junqbox

20-05-2019, 8:41am

take a photo with a tripod and shutter delay to check whether its your handholding or the sharpness of lens

arthurking83

20-05-2019, 8:51am

take a photo with a tripod and shutter delay to check whether its your handholding or the sharpness of lens

At the moment, it's looking that way(ish).
From the OPs last image post, the first image was shot on tripod, came out good.
Second image shot hand held, came out backfocused.

I've sent the OP some instructions on how to do some simple tests to determine what the issue is.

MadMax1412

20-05-2019, 3:44pm

Ok, so here's my test shots. The batteries were set up with the middle one closest, then the one to the right had it's front edge level with the back of the middle one. The one to the left of the middle had it's front edge level with the back of the 2nd one. Repeat with the last 2 with the one on the far left being the furtherest back. With the view finder shot, I put the focus on the one to the left in case it was forward focusing so it would show this by making the centre battery sharp. Live View unfortunately meant the whole set of batteries were in the focus box.

Nikkor DX AF-S 35mm f/1.8G, UV filter off, on a tripod, using 5 second timer.

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139678
139679

Based on the View Finder shot, it looks like it back focused as the further-est battery (the one on far left) seems to be in focus looking at the test above the red swirl. The camera was very close to the batteries. From memory I would say 40cm. I would assume the back focus issue would be more if the distance to the subject was greater?? In other words, it looks like actual focus was about 3 battery widths (about 3cm) back from where the focus point was and subject was 40 cm away, so if subject was 2 metres away (eg full body shot), would the back focus be 5x greater distance away from where the focus point was set to (ie about 15cm)???

Due to the limitations of only 5 photos per post, I'll wait until there's another post and then post the results for the Tamron lens.

arthurking83

21-05-2019, 10:39pm

Test is inconclusive!

Remember how I specified to leave some space between each battery so that the focus square only sees the one battery.

So focus is spot on via vf focusing, yet backfocused with Lv focusing.
This is the exact reverse situation anyone would ever predict.
Lv focusing relies on the actual sensor to do the focusing.
Vf focusing uses a separate focus system(separate to the sensor), and can have inaccurate alignment issues.
So in a camera/lens system with an focus issue, you'd expect to see focus error in vf captured shots, and more accurate focus in sensor based focus shots.

Also:
The further away your focus target is(or in real world photography .. your subject in focus) .. the harder it is to determine best focus plane.
Reason is, as the camera to subject distance increases, the DOF also increases. So you naturally get more of the depth in focus.

Broadly speaking, it doesn't matter so much at 'similar distances' the actual distance when you're trying to determine focus (in)accuracy.
That is, I doubt very much you will see much variance in focus accuracy on a given lens at say 0.4 - 2m or between 3m and 10m.
You may see differences in focus accuracy at largely differenct focus distances .. for example, like I said with my old Nikkor 80-200 that I had trouble with.
At between 1m and 4m, I had very obvious back focus from this lens(and only at 200mm).
Over about 10m focus distance tho, it wasn't a problem I ever worried about. Mainly because now inherently deeper DoF was also masking the issue a little too.

what all that means for you:
I wouldn't worry too much that you tested at 0.4m distance. If you shoot portraits at roughly 2m .. or even 3m distance away, the the focus testing will be accurate for that focus range(unless there's a monumental issue with the lens .. highly doubtful)

But like I said, redo at least that test with the 35mm with wider side gaps between the test subjects.

MadMax1412

22-05-2019, 11:38am

Test is inconclusive!

Remember how I specified to leave some space between each battery so that the focus square only sees the one battery.

Apologies. I focused (no pun intended) on the instructions where you said:

Note in my test I used 5 batteries. They're arranged in a V shape, middle at front and side ones are set so that the front part of each side battery is set to align with the rear part of the battery more central to it.
So there is little to no gaps fore/aft of each layer. This is about the right fore/aft distance to gauge depth of focus. It may or may not be spot on, but is generally a good guide.
With your Tamron lens tho, becasue of the small aperture, you may need to gap the batteries depth.
Depth of Field(DoF) can mask the accuracy of focus.

My bad - sorry.

So here's the test shot for the Nikkor lens. Once again, I focused on the 2nd battery back from the front in case the actual focus was some point in front of that (so it would be picked up by the first battery).

Nikkor DX AF-S 35mm f/1.8G, UV filter off, on a tripod, using 5 second timer.

139706

139710

139711

I will put the photos from the Tamron lens up tomorrow.

arthurking83

22-05-2019, 1:12pm

My apolgies too, for not being 101% clear.
Yeah, the closer-up-ness of the batteries was from front to rear, fore/aft not side to side.
Reason for this closeness is to take into account of DoF issues AND balance that with any very small focus inaccuracies.
If the batteries are too far apart front to rear of each other, you may not clearly see where the actual focus plane is.
Too close together, that is overlapping each other front to rear, and it's hard to determine an exact sharp focal plane.

The depth of a battery is just about right to balance these points.

So going by the new test shots ... I'd say no back/front focus issues.
Note the slight green and red/purple tint on the batteries in front of and behind the one you focused on.
This is normal.
Note how the battery you focused on doesn't have the red or green tint.
That red/magenta(red/purple) tint is called Longitudinal Chromatic Aberration(LoCA). Is normal for a prime lens at wide apertures.
Those uber expensive lenses that seem way out of your price range .. they tend to minimise that LoCA issue a lot more .. some to the point of zero.

So the conclusion for the Nikon 35mm .. working pretty much fine.
Solution is to change the way you operate the camera.
I posted a reply for you to use continuous focus mode for focusing.
Someone else mentioned the Back Button Focusing method. Technically the method is called AF-On method.
You camera has a a setting for you to set it up this way.
Basically, the way you hold the camera requires that your right thumb rests over the AF-On button up in the top right corner on the back of the camera.
The D90 doesn't have an AF-On button, but has a AE-L button. In the camera menu, you can set the AE-L button to be your focusing button.
In the camera menu section look for Menu F4, where you set what the AE-L button does.
Choose option AF-On.
Once you do that, you focus using the AE-L button.
This is a much more stable way to focus, due to the point that it will only focus while you press the AE-L button now.
Setting this, will remove the half shutter press to focus(better).
It may take a short while to adjust to this way, but once you get used to it, it gives you more control over both focusing and exposure.

Also, press the AF button on the camera, and turn main dial till you see AF mode set to AF-C.

So your new style of shooting stuff, will be to: frame the scene, press the AE-L button to focus, hold it down while you're framing, and then press the shutter(remember now there is no half press action other than to meter).
You will(or may) get unfocused frames, so try to shoot two or three shots(or more if you like) in succession.
Filter through the images shot, and choose the good ones.
If you use Nikon's software, as you filter through them all, it allows you to mark them as good bad OK types using a rating system.
I have my system setup so that I press a number for marking them as fit to keep.
So I use the numbers from 6-9 as good, 6 being something to keep, but is not the best overall image quality.
That is it may have some other aspects to it like a specific moment in time you want to keep, but is not sharp or exposed correctly.
I don't use 1-5(there's no 0) for IQ. I use 1-5 for any specific set type purposes(eg if I'm doing testing, or maybe a panorama.

You can also use Cntrl and 1-5 as another option. This gives the image a star rating instead(not a number).
It's less easy to use Cntrl+(1-5) than it is to just press a 7 or 8 or 9 .. if you know what I mean.
Easy to do, and makes life a lot easier once you amass more and more images.

Looking forward to seeing the Tamron results.

MadMax1412

23-05-2019, 8:34am

Tamron 18-270mm F/3.5-6.3 DI II

UV Filter off. Image Stabisation off. Timer set to 5 seconds.

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139735

139736

MadMax1412

23-05-2019, 9:40am

I was rushing this morning before heading out as I won't be home til 10pm so only chance of posting.

The first close up is View finder and second is Live View.

I only noticed when I checked via mobile just now that the photos are cropped out cutting off the name I wrote in red text.

arthurking83

23-05-2019, 4:44pm

Going on the vf shot, I reckon your Tammy is also focusing fine .. at whatever focal length you set it too(I think 18mm in the shot posted).

I'd reckon chances are that it'll focus OK for the majority of it's focal length range, but sometimes some lenses do play up at different focal lengths .. usually at the longer end.
I think the Tammy was the 18-270mm version.

If and when you get some time too, I'd say give it a quick test(just to see for yourself, more than anything) if vf focusing at longer lengths is accurate too.
Post results if you like too .. but that would be more so for your 'peace of mind'.

Note with these superzooms .. the longer you set focal length .. the less sharp they get, even stopped down.
But at middling focal lengths can be quite good.
I can't remember the specifics of the Tammy 18-270 .. but if you want portrait shots, a good focal length range to stick too as a max would be in the 85 to 135mm type range(give or take a little).

The missed Lv focus is basically normal. Obviously not a result you want to get all the time, but seen this many times in my lenses too.
Reason for it is obvious .. the focus square is much larger so the focus square sees more stuff to focus on.
Think of it as the camera isn't quite 'intelligent' to know what it is you want .. doesn't even know what's in the scene.
It just tries to focus on the most obvious thing to focus on .. which may be different to what you want it to focus on.
It seems to have focused on the wall in the background.

But I'd say that both lenses focus accuracy isn't an issue .. or at least a major issue .. to worry about.

MadMax1412

23-05-2019, 7:21pm

Thanks everyone for your input.

MadMax1412

25-05-2019, 6:13pm

Hi Guys,

Well Saturday rolled around and I took some more photos of my daughter in action at Netball. Since the distance was going to vary, I used my Tamron 18-270 and left it in auto mode with single point focus. I always use the view finder as I find the Live view awkward. I did try some test shots using Live View but found I could press down on the shutter and it wouldn't take the photo.

Anyway, being a fast moving game I tried to keep the focus point on my daughter and being single point helped. I could see the focus changing if people ran past between us etc, but though the view finder, if the focus point was on her, she looked in focus. Mind you, I am looking at a very tiny screen and she's constantly moving so as to how in focus she was is debatable, but what I mean is that at the time of the shots it looked good.

Here's an example where ViewNX shows the focus point being her body, specifically her arm, yet the photo seems to show things on the sideline meters away more in focus.

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The photo below has the following data: shutter speed 1/320 sec, ISO 200, Focal Length 78mm, Maximum Aperture 5, Metering Mode - Pattern, F-Stop - f/9

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This is why I originally started this post as it looks like I focused on the right part (my daughter's arm) and at first glance the postcard sized photo looks ok until you look closer and find the subject is blurry (not one part of my daugher's arm is in focus) and the background seems more in focus.

I guess I just have to improve my technique to something other than leaving everything on auto and just aiming the focus point on my subject, which I thought a beginner should be doing and letting the camera (since it's on auto) ensure the subject was in focus, and well lit etc.

TBH, I'm getting a bit over it. I'm starting to feel like I should just accept that these types of photos are going to be the best I can do. Yes, disappointed they're not excellent, but as I said, for looking at the photo on a small screen etc, they look sharp enough. When it comes to fast action stuff, I don't have time to do manual adjustments for each shot. It's always going to be a case of watching the game through the lens and following my daughter and hitting the shutter when she's involved in some action (shooting, running, etc) and just hope the "auto" part of the camera does a decent enough job.

Example 2

Focus point is on her hand on the ball.
139788

Actual photo (1/400 sec, f/10, 100mm focal length, ISO-200) shows hand (and all of my daughter) is blurry.

139789

It would have been a good action shot of her ready to make a play with others running past but she's too blurry for me to keep it.

Anyway, thanks for all the input over the past few weeks. I just thought the above photos were a perfect example of why the thread was started. Focus point in the right spot but actual focus seems to be elsewhere.

Ciao.

swifty

25-05-2019, 6:47pm

Hi Madmax, apologies as I’ve only skimmed through your thread and may have missed if this was already mentioned.
But could there just be a little misalignment of the AF points on the focusing screen and the actual focus points?
In your latest Netball shots, both are misfocussed at infinity even though viewNX shows the AF point in the centre on your subject. Going by your test shots, maybe your actual AF point is a little left of the centre when in landscape orientation.
Next time you have a chance to shoot, just pretend the AF point is a little left of centre in landscape and if you turn counterclockwise for portrait orientation, then pretend the AF point is a little below the centre.
See if that improves your result.
This is just a guess based on what you’ve shown but I could be wrong in terms of where the AF point actually is. This will require a bit more testing.

ameerat42

25-05-2019, 7:01pm

Such FF (Front Focusing)! It's enough to make you... well, pull your hair out.:eek:

Why didn't the older cameras have an electronic Micro-AF adjustment? :confused013

Look, there's an OLD AP Thread (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?56886-D90-back-front-focus-adjustment) on this from the time of the Lascaux Cave Paintings.

Just have a good read of it and the embedded links before you even try to do anything.

AK was a prime mover in this sort of thing way back then too :nod:

MadMax1412

25-05-2019, 7:22pm

ameerat42

25-05-2019, 7:34pm

G:eek:SH! He was such a w:eek:rry. Same as Lucille Ball was in I Love Lucy.

My main concern is that this being a physical adjustment in the camera body, whether it would affect
all lenses attached to it. In my camera, changing the micro-AF for one lens doesn't affect any others.

J.davis

25-05-2019, 8:55pm

John King

26-05-2019, 2:23pm

Why didn't the older cameras have an electronic Micro-AF adjustment? :confused013

Probably to do with processing power and memory requirements, Am.

Olympus cameras did, from around 2007 onwards. I think my E-30 was the first.

arthurking83

26-05-2019, 11:21pm

Yeah, I mentioned it before, and JD mentioned it again.

It's not an AF adjustment thing. It's more to do with focus speed and the lens(the fact that it's slow to respond).
Nikon consumer lenses are similar, in that they respond slowly to AF.

Backbutton focusing(or AF-On) as mentioned earlier, and use AF-C.
Maintain focus continuously(using the rear AEL button as the AF-On) no half shutter press required.
Expose for the shot when you feel confident that you've tracked focus continuously for a short amount of time.
It's basically all in the timing, and continuous focusing on the subject.

Good thing using VNX2 too ... it maintains all exif data and shows that you used AF-A mode.

MadMax1412

29-05-2019, 3:00pm

Yeah, I mentioned it before, and JD mentioned it again.

It's not an AF adjustment thing. It's more to do with focus speed and the lens(the fact that it's slow to respond).
Nikon consumer lenses are similar, in that they respond slowly to AF.

I assume by this you mean the camera hasn't completed focus before firing. My Nikon D90 doesn't fire if it doesn't think it has focus. It doesn't have the setting like the later Nikons that allow you to over-ride this and fire even if focus isn't met.

Backbutton focusing(or AF-On) as mentioned earlier, and use AF-C.
Maintain focus continuously(using the rear AEL button as the AF-On) no half shutter press required.
Expose for the shot when you feel confident that you've tracked focus continuously for a short amount of time.
It's basically all in the timing, and continuous focusing on the subject.

I'll give it a go this weekend at the next Netball game. I watched the YouTube video in the "Old AP Thread" link in the post above. ATM it feels a bit awkward as I have to twist my hand around a bit more than normal for my thumb to reach the AE-L/EF-L button. Plus, I look through the viewfinder with my left eye and I wear glasses so my knuckle on my thumb now brushes up against the right lens of my glasses.

Just a left field Q here, all the sport shots have the players OOF and the still background sort of OK.
Try manual settings with a ss of 1/1000, and f8 with auto ISO, no higher than 2000.
Program your camera to back button focus and I suspect your keeper rate may improve.

I will try to remember this, but that's partly my problem. Having to remember what custom settings to use for different situations. Usually I use the dial settings like "Action" for fast stuff (netball, daughter on go-kart, etc) and portrait for portraits (obviously) and simply the full auto. I've used Aperture settings when I deliberately want to blur out the background in photos where the subject is still and I have time to compose as I've learnt that the smaller F stops (eg F3.5) gives a small DOF then say F18.

I also think the pictures that you started with are too heavily cropped for the facial features to be sharp. If you want portraits, get closer.

I guess I'm over estimating the D90 and my own ability after watching videos such as this Jared Polin one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxqa_f6LsQI - which shows the face nicely in focus even when shot from a distance.

Yes, Nikon is releasing a firmware upgrade on the 16th May, 2 days away, that is supposed to give "eye AF".

I am a Nikon user and have the Nikon Z7 (higher Mp version of the Z6) and associated lenses and think it is a fantastic camera, the IQ results are stunning.

I saw that Nikon are doing a recall on some Z6 and Z7 cameras based on serial numbers. Not sure if you heard, but here's where I heard it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beouuswWGOk

arthurking83

29-05-2019, 3:29pm

I assume by this you mean the camera hasn't completed focus before firing. My Nikon D90 doesn't fire if it doesn't think it has focus. It doesn't have the setting like the later Nikons that allow you to over-ride this and fire even if focus isn't met.

.....

Firstly back button focusing is technically called AF-On focusing.
if you use the term BBF, you won't find it in the camera menu or manual .. so best to call it AF-On.
Reason is, that this is what a dedicated BBF button is called on a camera(eg. D300, and suchlike .. D800 etc).
They have both the AEL and an AF-On.

The D90 only has this AEL, which can be set to do AF-On.

Once you set the camera with AF-On, it defaults to focus priority, so you can shoot even if focus is not confirmed.

So to get the camera set up the way I described, you need AF-On and AF-C mode for focus.
It's the AF-C setting that allows this ability shoot even if there is no focus.
This is called focus priority as a setting.

So in AF-S and AF-A mode focus priority is focus.
When set to AF-C mode, focus priority is then set to release.

You're right, you can't set it manually as a dedicated setting in a D90 .. hence why I suggest to use AF-C mode.
And with that, your method needs to change to where you track your subject, holding the AF-On button continuously, you see the focus rack in and out constantly as it hits and misses.
You shoot as needed, and as said you may get a blurry image or two(or three) but you should also get some good ones.
The focusing speed/accuracy it more likely to be a lens issue, and not the camera per se.

eg. if you had a semi expensive lens like a Nikon 70-200/4, I reckon your focus hit rate will be much better.
Same with a Tamron 70-200/2.8 USD type lens .. quite fast and much more accurate than a consumer lens.
But they're heavy-ish and $1K sized lenses ..

ps. didn't know that you use your left eye, so can imagine it being awkward to use the AF-On method.
You could still try to use the normal release method for AF activation, and just set AF to AF-C and use the other tips I mention re focus tracking then pick a moment to shoot a few frames .. etc.
Personally I can't use the focus with the release method, now so used to AF-On.

Funnily too, last camera I bought was a D5500(for daughter), and I use it sometimes .. just for a bit of fun.
It has to be set to normal AF via the release, for her.
So every time I use it, I do my usual AF-On method, and miss the first set of shots with exposure locked to high heaven.
Sometimes habits are hard to break out of! ;)

MadMax1412

29-05-2019, 7:44pm

Firstly back button focusing is technically called AF-On focusing.
if you use the term BBF, you won't find it in the camera menu or manual .. so best to call it AF-On.

Sorry, I don't think I explained myself properly. In the YouTube video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyPv1bLkwqA&t=260s - at the 4:10 mark, he talks about the menu option for AF-C being able to be set to Release, Release+Focus, or Focus. Here he can set it so the Nikon D3S will fire even if it doesn't have focus (Release Priority). What I was saying is I don't have this menu option so my Nikon D90 won't fire unless it has focus. That's the option menu I was talking about. I wasn't looking for any BBF menu option :-)

So in AF-S and AF-A mode focus priority is focus.
When set to AF-C mode, focus priority is then set to release.

You're right, you can't set it manually as a dedicated setting in a D90 .. hence why I suggest to use AF-C mode.

Yep, I understand that and have set it to AF-C.

And with that, your method needs to change to where you track your subject, holding the AF-On button continuously, you see the focus rack in and out constantly as it hits and misses.
You shoot as needed, and as said you may get a blurry image or two(or three) but you should also get some good ones.
The focusing speed/accuracy it more likely to be a lens issue, and not the camera per se.

Last weekend, I had my camera set to AF-A which from my understanding means the camera chooses whether it needs AF-C or AF-A. I would zoom in on my daughter with single point focus, half press and then follow her around the court waiting for a good photo op such as her catching the ball etc. As other players went between me and my daughter, the focus would hunt trying to regain focus on the person now between us, but usually the person was only passing through so my daughter would come into view and it would re-focus. In the meantime, I'm still holding the release button down half way. I'll give this BBF method a try on Saturday and see how I go.

One thing I find annoying is every time I change the selection dial (eg Auto, Portrait, Landscape, etc) the options reset. The AF-C changes back to AF-A, AF-Area Mode changes to auto area, etc.

Cheers

arthurking83

30-05-2019, 8:15am

Ah, OK.
Maybe that's the issue then .. the shooting mode.

Try setting to [A] .. Aperture priority.

Then what you do is use the front dial to set aperture. or just set it to fully open, and leave it there.
On the Nikon, it'll just stay wide open if you set it that way, on the Tamron, it will vary as you zoom.
It'll close up zooming in, and open up when zooming out again .. automatically.

Then try AF-C and single point focus.
I thought AF-A chooses AF-A or AF-C as the subject is moving or static, but yes it still uses the focus priority mode only., so needs to have focus before allowing exposure.
So AF-C is the only way you can get release priority.

Don't worry too much about 'composition' while you're trying to get a handle on it, just stick with central single point focus, and work with the idea that you may crop the images to get an image the way you want.
Once you've worked out the focusing/accuracy issue, then you experiment with focus point settings.

But remember, once set to AF-C, the cameras default setting is then release priority.
If you use the Tammy more(which makes sense) for eg. your daughters netball ... use the zoom to help with composition.

But important point here is not to use the Auto modes for shooting settings.
Either [A] aperture, or [S] shutter priority.
Technically, [S] mode is better for sports/fast action, where you tell camera .. "I just want 1/1000s or faster", but you need to also use AutoISO mode to allow it to do that.
Otherwise using [A] mode will be identical.

So maybe also set Auto ISO ... max ISO3200. I have the D300, and ISO3200 is OK for this sensor(same sensor).
One by the way with this tho, is that instead of ViewNX2, maybe try using ViewNX-D .. it's noise reduction works really well(for a freebie software!) :th3:

ps. I used to set my D300 to ISO6400 max in AutoISO.

What I'm describing works for me, so it's only a guide for you.
I didn't know that you use left eye for vf, so this is different, so your style is different.
Just trying to help you get more comfy, more so with understanding the different settings, more so than an ideal technique for you.
Your style is different, so you have to work this out, and with what you described, maybe AF-On may not suit.
But once you understand all the settings, and assistance that the camera offers, then you find your groove(so to speak) on how it works better for you.

I just had a try using AF-On and using my left eye in vf, and I don't wear glasses or nothing, and it is quite awkward. Maybe I could get used to it a little, and strangely it seems to feel more comfy when I set the camera to portrait orientation!
But, overall, coming from my normal handling usage, it did feel awkward.

MadMax1412

01-06-2019, 5:20pm

Just a left field Q here, all the sport shots have the players OOF and the still background sort of OK.
Try manual settings with a ss of 1/1000, and f8 with auto ISO, no higher than 2000.
Program your camera to back button focus and I suspect your keeper rate may improve.
I also think the pictures that you started with are too heavily cropped for the facial features to be sharp. If you want portraits, get closer.

This photo was taken whilst my daughter was stationery. My camera was set as suggested (shutter 1/1000, F8, auto ISO (this photo was 400) Focal length 46mm) and I was using BBF as instructed.

View NX shows the focus point being the bottom of the uniform where the white part contrasts against the green.

139888

139889

You can download the NEF file from my Google Drive - https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bU-J-hHfwg-7uDeZ8Dk_8ZE44bpYUdX-

I guess I'm disappointed because I expect my D90 to give better images like I see more modern camera give, like in this Youtube video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C372rx80jjE (7:23 mark) - where they show a close up of the shot next to the full length shot. but then again I guess my camera and lens isn't worth $3000+

139890

arthurking83

01-06-2019, 7:20pm

Have to say, the IQ is about what you would expect from the Tamron.
Focus was about spot on. That is, the focus plane is pretty much right.
You want focus on your daughters face, but remember that focus works on a plane, it's not really a spot as such.(more accurately DoF works along a plane.. but same difference)

Very important to note here(I downloaded and checked the image in VNX2 too) .. your upload of the cropped image is magnified more than 100% .. so it's exaggerated the softness of the lens.
I believe you may have set magnify to 200% and then cropped.
At 100%(in VNX2) .. don't look too bad.

So the focus spot on your daughters lower skirt, is close enough to the same plane as is her face .. and therefore her eyes.

Of note is that these consumer super zooms will render images as you experience. They're never going to be as good as a higher grade of zoom lens.
The Sony camera you mention at $3K .. is camera body only!
You haven't taken into account that a lens is still required.

summary: if you take a $3K Sony camera(that is supposedly that much better than an old 'decrepit' unworthy D90) .. and add to this $3K camera the same Tamron lens you used, you WILL get close to the exact same IQ.

It all starts at the front, and ends up way down the back there, through the camera sensor and onto your memory card. The important point being the start.
Feed in better quality, and you'll get better quality all the way through to the end! ;)

So as you shoot more, and gain more experience, you see more/different ways to do stuff you want to achieve.
Note how you set the Tamron at 46mm focal length.
Assuming you're at the sidelines, so can't step in a little(just one step) .. you could have used the Nikon 35, set it to f/2.8(very sharp there, or f/4: supposedly a little bit sharper again), ISO would have adjusted to ISO100, shutter at 1/2000s for those conditions.
But if you wanted to keep the same framing, because the Nikon 35mm would have given a sharper image, you could have had greater ability to crop more.

etc. etc.

ie. there are "many ways to skin a cat" .. it's a matter of building up the experience, or simply asking how to ....

I have to be honest, I'd be happy to have captured that image of your daughter. It may not be the greatest detailed image you have, and maybe in the future you do get a better camera/lens, and you get better quality images, but at least you have what you have and in reasonable quality.
The important point I hope to help with is that you don't usually print/view images at 100% pixel view(that is zoomed in all the way).
Learn to appreciate images for what they are, not the fact that you got that last 0.01% out of the gear that captured them! :th3:

That's basically what I do:
I use cheap @$$ed gear, trying more so to do more with that, then to spend big $ trying to get that last percent of quality.
Revelation here tho!! I do spend big $s on gear sometimes, but not 'willy nilly'. eg. I did buy a D800E way back when and that cost me over $3K too, but I didn't buy it because it gave me better IQ.
I bought it because I wanted something specific from the next camera.
back then video in cameras wasn't common, and the two specifics I wanted were video and full frame capture(due to most of the lenses I have). D700(much cheaper) didn't have video, and D3s silly price for what I wanted. Would have loved a D3s, but you need to balance common sense with reality.

Later .. much later, I then got a cheapo ultra wide angle lens, as my primary choice of subject matter was(still is) landcapes.
I used my APS-C only Sigma 10-20 lens for about a year till I finally decided on which wide angle lens to finally get.
Nikon 14-24 was a great lens, awesome lens, much better IQ than the Sigma 12-24 of the time, the cheaper model f/4.5-5.6 version. Later Sigma created their 12-24 f/4 lens too. but wasn't an option(around) for me when I finally got mine.
Again, the Nikon 14-24 was big bucks, even tho I did a lot of photography back then .. still decided that in landscapes absolute detail wasn't as important as the overall image .. ie. the subject was more important than the detail captured of that subject.

So if I ever displayed the images, the additional cost of the Nikon 14-24 over the 1/3 priced Sigma 12-24(old model) just wasn't 'money well spent'.
I got better tripod, and more other stuff(left me some money to aim for another semi expensive lens too).

So sometimes you need to weigh up what are you doing and why.
ie. what are you spending, and what do you want from it?
Sometimes a better lens is the best way to go, other times a better camera is the way to go .. and so on and so forth.

If you want a half decent cheap zoom lens to get high quality images at the short range, I can highly recommend the Tamron 17-50/2.8 lens from ways back.
There are multiple versions of this lens, second hand they're quite cheap, and IQ is much better than the price would indicate. I estimate between $100-300 for a good one.
The non VC lens will be cheaper(this is what I have), and the VC lens will be at the higher end. Brand new I think about $500-ish. VC is handy to have for longer shutter times.
The other nice Tammy lens I can't part with is the 28-75/2.8. One thing that stops me from recommending this lens is that mine backfocuses. Now that I got used to it tho, I work around that if I use it.
But it's sharp enough at f/2.8, gets sharper at f/4, and why I like it is that it's bokeh is about as good as you see from any lens out there.

The beauty of owning a D90 Nikon camera(and not a more modern D5xxx) is that your model focuses with AF-D lenses(has a built in af drive) .. so you have more options for AF lenses.

if you wanted more zoom range lens, I like the 18-105 and 18-140(have both) that Nikon make. Good IQ(not the greatest) and decent zoom range.

If you really want spectacular image quality worthy of a $3000 spend .. you need to look at some pretty decent lenses.

last tip: if you're still using ViewNX2, open the NEF there, and just give the image a 2 setting on sharpening.
If you're using ViewNX-D, make the sharpening settings a little different. A bit convoluted so will explain this only if you wanted it.