Sexism in the photography industry

[swifty]

Since it now appears the another thread is not genuine in discussing the topic of sexism in the photography industry, this is a separate thread on this topic.

Recently, it has been highlighted that of the 32 Nikon Ambassadors that were promoting the launch of the D850, none were females.
Had a further look and the 32 ambassadors were from the Asia-pacific region, including Australia.
Of the global ambassadors promoting the D850 launch, there are 4 and one of whom is female.

Those are the numbers and the facts. So is this a problem in the industry?

Some issues to consider:
- is this due to some form of corporate glass ceiling for female photographers preventing them from reaching ambassadorship?
- is this due to a lack of interest or unequal interest levels between genders
- is this issue regional or global?
- is this issue confined to Nikon or across the entire industry?
- is this issue confined to the photographic industry or the electronics as a whole or wider?
- Anecdotally it appears there are many more male photography reviewers than female ones? If the internet has allowed for self-publishing such that anyone can publish content, what is the discrepancy based on?
- What is ambassadorship and how are they sought? Peer to peer, selection from the company, application from the photographer?

Of course there are many more points to consider so please give your thoughts?

Rick or Kym: would it be possible to know the gender demographics of this forum? This is out of interest and would give an additional data point to consider.

It'll be interesting to know what proportion of professional photographers are male:female and how this compares across industries if anyone knows any figures.

[Cage]

:ps::ps::ps::ps::ps:

[arthurking83]

I'd be curious as to the M/F ratio too.

But lets try to make some sense of this (non) issue.

* Nikon has many ambassadors for their products.
* Nikon have many products, the D850 is one of many.
* Nikon use these ambassadors to help promote these products.

It obviously follows that these ambassadors need to be using those product to help showcase them.

Scenario: Lets say there are 32 ambassadors for Nikon, 8 of which are females. Obviously that's too low a ratio for western tastes, but that could well be above typical representative numbers for any other non western region! But for this scenario this part isn't important(yet). I'm just running potential reasons as to why this issue raised it stupid self as clickbait .. I mean an issue.

Of those ambassadors, not all of them will be using or have a need for the D850.
There are obviously photographers that need DXXXs and there are photographers that need DY's. Insert your preferred number in place of Xs and Ys.

I'm sure there were male ambassadors that weren't asked to attend/assist/help .. or even look at the D850 .
Nikon obviously wouldn't ask the D5-only using ambassador to this promo event .. would they.
While this D5-only using photographer would be very knowledgeable with respect to photography and using a Nikon camera, this event was for the purpose of espousing the virtues of the D850!

So maybe Nikon only request this 'one' female photographer to do this event .. did it not occur to any of the blathering idiots that maybe Nikon only has one female as a Nikon D850 ambassador? (EDIT: in the Asian region)

There's probably 100 D5-using female ambassadors out there for Nikon, but they're not D850 proficient to hep out as thoroughly as a proper D850 ambassador.

So as a society are we now compelled to disregard true ability simply for the sake of gender equality?

Lets take this to any other industry: Politics, Education ... whatever.
Lets say we want full equality for the sake of gender. The labour party once claimed that they want 50/50 gender numbers ... and the only purpose for this is for keeping up appearances.

So the (western)world is headed into a era of doom looking to be of monumental proportions simply because there's a need to make sure that political correctness is adhered too and not merit.

Do you want your child educated by a stupid half knowledgeable idiot(irrespective of gender) teacher .. or the one that best fits the job role?

As said in the other non thread .. it's a stupid news item of little value picked up by under resourced so called news outlets.
I did search(basic tho that it was) the issue and found no mention of it in Asian region news outlets. Only seems to have been propagated by the usual suspects.

--- useless ranting here ----

A small point of view from a non pro type photography geek. years ago when I was an adhoc courier, our main workload represented the photography industry and the type setting industry. Due to changes in both those industries since then that work literally all dried up.
90% of our workload was photographic or type setting stuff .. and 90% of that was to and from ad agencies and newspapers.
I got to see a lot of the inside workings of the typical photo studio in and around Melbourne. Back in those days it was all Prahran, South Yarra, and St Kilda. This is where all the important photo studios were located. Very few on the fringes for this industry, and of coruse there were the odd portrait studio in some obscure suburbs here and there. Back then tho if you were or wanted to be someone you had to be in those areas. There was a notable gravitation into Richmond over the 20 years that I did this work .. and it paid very well considering the work and skill needed to do it.
I still clearly remember Lisa Saad's studio in Richmond up on some Seberian like no-mans land on a middling floor level of a semi converted warehouse .. the lift was slow as molasses, you had to manually lift half the top of the door which then linked to the bottom half of the lift door .... massive great red thing you could easily drive a car into. I think she was one of the leading figures that pushed out of Prahran and into Richmond wayyy back when. her studio was always populated by women .. and the occasional camp male.
I can tell you with 100% clarity and certainty that over 90% of all those photographers were predominantly women!(that was one of the joys of doing what I did back then .. noting I was in my 20s ;))
Many of the ad execs in that section of the ad industry were also female.
I haven't an inkling of the make up of the ad industry as a whole, but my observations of that part .. the photography related section was predominantly and heavily weighted towards females employees/contractors/creatives/and so on.


it was interesting to see this too, because it was just so ingrained that when I'd come across a male in the industry, mainly on the photography side of the process .. it kind of set you back a bit. I still remember the first digital image I'd seen from a studio in Prahran too.
Can't remember the studio name, but still remember their location, but they're long gone now. I remember the Camera was a Canon too .. large body 1D type thing.
It took them 45mins to get the shot on the camera to the PC and edited quickly for me to courier the Zip drive to the ad agency in St Kilda road. A $10 job turned into a $50 job simply due to that wait time.
I thought you ripper :th3: .. bring on more digital photography :p .. then of course the internet changed, dial up evolved into broadband and the rest is history(I was out of there long before it got to the zero work stage tho).

--- Summary ---

I don't think, and can't imagine that, sexism would be a problem in the photography industry. If anything I'd imagine a cohort of females conspiring against male upstarts and making it harder for the males to get into their workforce.

[swifty]

:ps::ps::ps::ps::ps:

Not really. Seriously.

Being in the privileged group, one is often oblivious to issues of a marginalized group, this being a general statement.
So since the issue has been raised, I'm curious as to what the problem is, especially from a female photographer's POV.

However, I know as many male:female photographers in real life but none of the female ones I know participate in forums as far as I know.
I'm not sure why, maybe they're too busy taking photographs and its us men that are having our mini-wars online.
So we might not get much or a fair female representation from the forum community.

Maybe the female pro photographers are also too busy shooting to worry about ambassadorship (which might be seen as some form of accolade) and the geekiness of promoting a new fandangle camera.

[Tannin]

That's not evidence. Forums are a boy thing anyway. Every single forum I can think of is mostly male. These include a wide variety of interests - photography, rotating mechanical computer storage, cars, Australian football, infotech news, concreting and plastering, renewable energy. Every one of them is all-male or almost all-male. It's normal.

Hmmm ... possibly there is a slight bias going on in terms of my forum subject selection here. :)

[arthurking83]

.... the geekiness of promoting a new fandangle camera.

I think there's a lot of that embedded in this D850 ambassadorial fiasco, for reasons already mentioned.

[swifty]

Hmmm ... possibly there is a slight bias going on in terms of my forum subject selection here. :)

Ever been on a parenting or expats forum? :D

[Tannin]

^ My point precisely. :)

[ricktas]

Rick or Kym: would it be possible to know the gender demographics of this forum? This is out of interest and would give an additional data point to consider.



Although that could be interesting, I don't have that data. When you register or edit your profile, there is not (and has never been) a field for members to state if they are Male / Female / Trans / Undecided. So the data just does not exist. I could.. if I had a few free days, or was really really bored. go through the members and from usenames and emails, try and decide if each one is a male or a female, and tally them up, but ... no.. that ain't happening.

Even a look at the last 20 registrations. There are 5 that could be male (email has Jim /Alan in the name). There are 4 that could be female (Mary / Sandra in email address) and the rest.. well you tell me if instra1 or rider or brj1 or info@ are male or female...hehe.

So in the interests of fairness we have 23005 members 11502.5 are male and 11502.5 are female :D

[ricktas]

I don't think sexism is the right word here. Perhaps gender inequality, but sexism suggests distinct choices to exclude people based on their sex.

Gender inequality in the workplace is an issue worldwide. Look at our own government, we have had ONE female prime minister in 117 years of this country. I think a lot has been done in the last 10-15 years to try and bring a balance. Photography is no different to any other industry and yes it perhaps can improve, but I don't think photography is worse than any other industry.

Now, when you start looking at board rooms of companies, some countries are lagging behind others in creating equality there, but you also have centuries of local traditions, patriarchal systems and other biases to overcome. Japan has approximately 3-5% of company board members being women. But we cannot expect companies in those countries to suddenly accept a western ideal, when we cannot even achieve it all the time, ourselves.

There is also the still remaining biases that certain jobs are more acceptable if you are a certain sex. The vast majority of registered nurses in Australia are female. The vast majority of builders are male. Then you get industries like hairdressing which has a lot of females, and a lot of gay males. Why? Because even though we talk about equality, there is this underlying belief that some roles are for specific genders. This is breaking down, but we have a long way to go. Why would photography not have these same issues that general society has.

However, I do not think photography as an industry sets out to be sexist, or even discriminate against a particular gender.

Nikon have copped a blast recently, (see the other thread) that was no fault of their own. They invited people and some declined. It could have easily been that the males declined and a mostly female turnout occurred. Would we then be praising Nikon for that? I think not!

[arthurking83]

....

So in the interests of fairness we have 23005 members 11502.5 are male and 11502.5 are female :D

Now I'm curious .. who's the member sitting on the fence?

[Geoff79]

Nikon have copped a blast recently, (see the other thread) that was no fault of their own. They invited people and some declined. It could have easily been that the males declined and a mostly female turnout occurred. Would we then be praising Nikon for that? I think not!

Well if that had happened, Nikon obviously just had all the women there as eye candy, to promote their product to males. Obviously.

Sickos.

Sexist creeps.

Because that's how it works in 2017. If there was not an issue to be had, someone would create an issue to be had.

I remember the other day I was at my local park and I suggestively ran my right hand through my hair. I was then approached by someone who mentioned that they had seen the pleasure my right hand had endured, being run through my recently washed hair (shampoo and conditioner) and suggested that the discrimination I showed towards my left hand was nothing short of sickening.

[arthurking83]

:lol::lol::lol:(Geoff)

[Steve Axford]

Since it now appears the another thread is not genuine in discussing the topic of sexism in the photography industry, this is a separate thread on this topic.

Recently, it has been highlighted that of the 32 Nikon Ambassadors that were promoting the launch of the D850, none were females.
Had a further look and the 32 ambassadors were from the Asia-pacific region, including Australia.
Of the global ambassadors promoting the D850 launch, there are 4 and one of whom is female.

Those are the numbers and the facts. So is this a problem in the industry?

Some issues to consider:
- is this due to some form of corporate glass ceiling for female photographers preventing them from reaching ambassadorship?
- is this due to a lack of interest or unequal interest levels between genders
- is this issue regional or global?
- is this issue confined to Nikon or across the entire industry?
- is this issue confined to the photographic industry or the electronics as a whole or wider?
- Anecdotally it appears there are many more male photography reviewers than female ones? If the internet has allowed for self-publishing such that anyone can publish content, what is the discrepancy based on?
- What is ambassadorship and how are they sought? Peer to peer, selection from the company, application from the photographer?

Of course there are many more points to consider so please give your thoughts?

Rick or Kym: would it be possible to know the gender demographics of this forum? This is out of interest and would give an additional data point to consider.

It'll be interesting to know what proportion of professional photographers are male:female and how this compares across industries if anyone knows any figures.

I agree, sexism is rife in our community, and clearly here too. At least half the photographers I know are female, yet almost none of the ambassadors are. Why not? Is it that no women want to be given free cameras? I suspect not.

[swifty]

Well if that had happened, Nikon obviously just had all the women there as eye candy, to promote their product to males. Obviously.

Sickos.

Sexist creeps.

Because that's how it works in 2017. If there was not an issue to be had, someone would create an issue to be had.

I remember the other day I was at my local park and I suggestively ran my right hand through my hair. I was then approached by someone who mentioned that they had seen the pleasure my right hand had endured, being run through my recently washed hair (shampoo and conditioner) and suggested that the discrimination I showed towards my left hand was nothing short of sickening.

What shampoo and conditioner?
Hey, I wanna know the left hand missed out on :D

[arthurking83]

...... yet almost none of the ambassadors are. Why not? Is it that no women want to be given free cameras? I suspect not.

(for Nikon Aus) I can't find any info other than what's on their (pretty stupid) MyNikonLife website. They list 7 ambassadors, 0 women.

Is that sexism, oversight, or simply lack of entrants/ability(by Nikon Australia's .. whatever .. standards) :confused013

[Steve Axford]

You seriously think it may be due to lack of ability?

[Tannin]

^ Not a chance. The best bird photographer on this forum, for example, is a woman. If I was a camera manufacturer looking for an ambassador from amongst our membership, I know who I'd be calling.

[swifty]

I agree, sexism is rife in our community, and clearly here too. At least half the photographers I know are female, yet almost none of the ambassadors are. Why not? Is it that no women want to be given free cameras? I suspect not.

I think as Rick said, we gotta distinguish between unequal distribution of gender in the workforce and sexism.
With the latter it is some form of bias preventing workers of a certain gender from reaching the same potential as their opposite sex.
So the numbers obviously show unequal distribution. The question is is it due to sexism?
Anybody know how one becomes an ambassador? And what perks and limitations are imposed on the ambassador?

[Steve Axford]

Yet they don't???? Is that sexism, or do we call it some non-emotive term, like gender equality (not even gender inequality), in the hope that people will just continue to ignore it.

[Tannin]

Anybody know how one becomes an ambassador?

The simplest method is to bring down the worst budget in living memory and smoke a cigar afterwards.

[Geoff79]

What shampoo and conditioner?
Hey, I wanna know the left hand missed out on :D

Head Strong, by Prince. 2 in 1 shampoo and conditioner. From Aldi. Not only does it clean and soften my hair, but it also keeps it on my scalp, allegedly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[arthurking83]

You seriously think it may be due to lack of ability?

I've noted this before, and it's worth reiterating again ..

we can't impose our preferences for what we think is ability on others .. just like I think .. XXXX is great, you can't tell me that they aren't.

Nikon is allowed to have their voice as much as we are.

AND .. just because there is ability, doesn't automatically = that this able woman is going to be a Nikon ambassador.
She may choose Nikon products for their ability of ease of use or whatever .. doesn't mean that she endorses Nikon!
maybe they have restrictive policies that she doesn't want to adhere too ..
Most likely the geek factor tho .. maybe she's just not interested!

There's to many variables as to why the current situation is biased as it is for us to pass judgement without all the info.
NDA's, mutually exclusive philosophies .. whatever.

eg. In a weird world Nikon come to me and ask me to be an ambassador, and they give me free stuff(not beer, not a big fan).
But the deal would be that I'd have to be in their NPS program and I'd have to buy a certain dollar value of gear every year.
And I'd have to provide a certain amount of work every so often, and I'd have to attend certain meetings/events at any given time of year(that they choose) and be away from home for a given time(that they require) .. etc.

For me, much as I'd love the free stuff, no way I could commit to any of those impositions.
What's the point of being an ambassador if they're only going to remove it due to my unavailability and lack of interest in buying a lot of their stuff every year .. etc. etc.

Who wouldn't be jumping for joy at the prospect of free stuff?

Not me! .. I can't afford more than about 3 days from home, I need to work to pay for my hobbies, I can't be stuffed most days to get out to take a photo. All sounds like work, and I hate work :p
I like my hobbies just the way they are, and would decline any offers like that.

Maybe women are simply more practical on the whole than men .. and men just enjoy that cache of being an ambassador more than women do.
I can't seriously imagine the situation that Nikon haven't approached a single female Nikon photo in Australia.
But I can imagine the situation where a practical hard working non ego centric woman would see it as too much work for no financial gain!

[Tannin]

Maybe women are simply more practical on the whole than men

Correct! This is why most female photographers use Canon gear.

[swifty]

Correct! This is why most female photographers use Canon gear.

Explains why I use Nikon gear.
I did own a G12 once. Think I was trying to get in touch with my feminine, I mean practical side.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not sure where I'm going with this but.... I wonder what proportion of photography competition entrants are male vs female?
There are no barriers to gender for entry and assuming there's roughly a 50:50 distribution of sexes amongst photographers in general I wonder if there's also a skew towards male entrants.

[swifty]

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/oops-i-did-it-again.html

Some commentary on the initial incident.
Paraphrasing some of his points:
- the "unfortunate incident" as Nikon puts it, should have been picked up and easily avoided.
- Nikon has not apologized properly by phrasing it as an "unfortunate incident", implying it is unfortunate for Nikon to be in the situation.
- A large part is due to the corporate culture at Nikon specifically, stemming from top management down and their very 'paternalistic' approach.
- He also suggests he's seen male photographer given opportunities quicker than women although I'm not sure if that statement refers to Nikon or generally.

So, whether you agree with Thom or not, he is a respected Nikon guru with some good insights in the inner workings at Nikon.
And he is suggesting that sexism (and not just inequality in gender distribution) is what led to this incident.
Of course, that's not to say there aren't other issues at play here but according to Thom, corporate culture at Nikon played a big role.

[Tannin]

^ Stodgy old-school Japanese corporation behaves in stodgy old-school manner.

Gosh! Who'd a thunk it?

[arthurking83]

Yeah fair nuff .. but we're looking at it from our western cultural perspective, where gender equality is a news item every day!
What if Japanese culture doesn't place much emphasis on gender equality as it does absolute merit.

Of course I'm not Japanese .. just trying to get my head around a supposed problem.

eg. if gender equality is really such a major issue for the Photographic community .. why are there no protestations about Fuji's massive gender inequality on their amabassadorship list.
(counted the numbers: 430 ambassadors listed, 39 female)

I can only assume that this is worldwide, and the list is alphabetical (http://fujifilm-x.com/photographers/) ... I can't imagine that list is just a single region/country.

ps. this isn't a dig at Fuji .. it's simply the only camera company that gives the searcher an easy to locate list of their X-people.
Couldn't find any detailed info at Sony, Canon or Nikon, other than tidbits here and there for given countries/regions.

But from what I see, there's a massive discrepancy there in terms of gender equality .. no one has ever batted an eyelid about this.
From the main Nikon locations I can gather info on(US/Aus/Europe(but not specific countries)/Middle East-Africa(only 1 listed)/Asia(>50% female .. I think) .. I calculated that the numbers are about 33%(or maybe it was 38%) women.

Thom makes the point that there are only 7 women out of 31 ambassadors(29%). From the scant info I can find in their ambassador areas, only 2 of them appear to use a D8xx type body on some manner. Most use the D4/5 type bodies.
So if Nikon USA asks all D850 ambassadors to a party, and 2 females decline (out of the two seemingly using D8xx bodies) .. what are NikonUSA's options from there?

All I can see in that story is a teacup and a storm being brewed.
Had the story been Nikon ambassadors worldwide involving all Nikon products(ie. not specifically relating to the D850) .. then there's an argument to be made.
Not only for Nikon, but I'm thinking all others too ;)

One thing is for sure(at least in the western hemispheres) is .. they'll be scrambling to redress the gender gap!

[Steve Axford]

Arthur, you seem to be implying that Nikon is just awarding their ambassadorships based on merit. It follows from that you most likely think that women generally do not merit photographic awards??? I'm sure you don't mean that.
This is a problem with our society, not with the photographic industry alone, nor with a particular manufacturer. To try to defend Nikon just makes you appear to support gender inequality.
You make a very valid point when you say that other manufacturers don't have many women ambassadors either. Sony certainly don't.

[Geoff79]

I can definitely see where Arthur is coming from and I would desperately love to hear first hand accounts from the women who are supposedly being so hard done by here. If there are real stories from real women who think there is a great injustice occurring here, there's a story.

Otherwise, are people perhaps creating an inconvenience where it may not really exist? It just happens far too often in the modern world. Not every single thing needs to be an issue, surely?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tandeejay]

just like I think .. XXXX is great

Glad to hear your enjoying Queensland beer

[arthurking83]

@ tandeejay ... :lol:


Arthur, you seem to be implying that Nikon is just awarding their ambassadorships based on merit. It follows from that you most likely think that women generally do not merit photographic awards??? I'm sure you don't mean that.
This is a problem with our society, not with the photographic industry alone, nor with a particular manufacturer. To try to defend Nikon just makes you appear to support gender inequality.
You make a very valid point when you say that other manufacturers don't have many women ambassadors either. Sony certainly don't.

Where the merit comes into the equation is simply merit with proficiency with the D850.
Remember that the entire situation is that Nikon couldn't get any(even if that was only one!) females D850 ambassadors to participate in the event. The key point to note is the D850+ambassador .. ie. the two terms are to be taken as one.

So we know Nikon has (few) women ambassadors, how many of them accepted a role as a D850-ambassador?
I'm assuming possibly two in the USA(judging by the gear they appear to be using)
So Nikon may have a few D5 and D500 female ambassadors, but are they D850-ambassadors as well?
Does a D5 ambassadors(irrespective of gender) have the merit to showcase the D850?

So if they only had one woman in the Asia region accept the role as a D850-amabassador then she would have the correct merit/qualification/whatever to be invited to the specific event.
Noting that this ambassador should be proficient with using the D850, know all the menus, all the pitfalls(so as to not embarrass Nikon with an awkward situation .. etc, etc.

merit here doesn't mean merit as a photographer .. merit = ability to use D850 with their hands tied behind their back, blindfolded, multitasking, and explaining to some other geek the subtleties of the D5 .. all at the same time.

Sony has few female ambassadors, and so do Fuji (we'll include Nikon in this list simply for maintaining equality on the topic of inequality :p).
Sony need a female ambassador for a region where there are none available on the day of the event, or none exist at all(for that region).
Do Sony invite a Fuji female ambassador to showcase the A9 which would be a totally foreign camera for her to navigate around? Would she understand the limitation of the 20fps feature, and why some curious attendee set the camera to mechanical shutter mode and now it can't shoot faster than 10fps and the viewfinder shows the dreaded blackout? ;)

She needs to have the right qualifications to eliminate the possibility of any uncomfortable situation for the manufacturer that would go viral on social media sites.


I think what you have concluded is that my point was that no woman photographer has the merit as a photographer to be invited.
If I were a Nikon head honcho(in any region, let alone an Asian one) I would invite Annie Lebovitz or Lisa Saad to showcase the D850. They may have more merit than everyone combined here as photographers but that means zip! for a D850 event. They just don't have the correct qualification to show the public how the menu works or the systems operate.

Put the question another way: How would you go as an ambassador for Nikon for a D3 event? I know I wouldn't do well. With enough familiarity with the body, I suppose that situation could change tho.
I know I could do well as a D300 ambassador tho. Possibly as a D800E ambassador .. I know those two cameras well enough now and the menu systems pretty well. I'd probably have to 'borrow' someone esles photos to show that I'm a capable photographer tho.
Of course I used the word could here as it'd probably be a failure on Nikon's behalf .. I'd be pointing out all the niggles and foibles the annoy me .. not so good for Nikon .. better understanding of the limitations for the potential customers!! :p


Like I've said a few times now.
As westerners we're blinded by what we determine to be issues that require urgent attention in our region. We then latch onto those issues so firmly, that we then extend them into any information we see fit to distort to our preference.

On a personal level: I know three professional photographers(not here) but through friends and acquaintances in the real world.
I also know 3 amateur photographers in the real world too. myself included in that group.
Do I see gender inequality in the photographic community on the whole?
Yes!
3 pros are all female, us amateurs are all males .. I'd prefer that balance was corrected! :lol2:

[Steve Axford]

I very much doubt that merit with proficiency with the D850 has anything to do with it. The cameras will be given to the ambassadors based on their photographic profile and how good they are at selling themselves to Nikon (or Sony or Canon). Almost all photographers will be proficient at the D850 if they actually are photographers and they are given the camera and lenses. I doubt that the manufacturers are aware of their own biases, but they should be. As should all of us.

[Kym]

I saw a comment on another forum, Nikon had approached a bunch of female 'togs and they turned Nikon down ... what can they do?

Talk about a stupid article.

[Steve Axford]

A comment on a forum?

[rellik666]

This is a subject close to my heart. So apologies if I go off on a tangent.

I have no idea who is male or female on this thread, apologies, well except a couple obviously, Rick and Arthur as whilst the name may suggest it, I have actually met him so I can be fairly confident of the genders there.

I have done a lot of research into gender diversity in engineering. I know not quite photography but I think some of the challenges are aligned.

Anyhow one of the reasons, apart from unconscious bias (test your own here (https://www.diversityaustralia.com.au/test-your-own-unconscious-bias/)), the need to be part of a group and a lack of role models, is confidence.

Whilst there are more similarities between men and women then there are differences, one aspect that has stood out is that women lack confidence in areas they feel they are not represented equally in. Where as men tend to have a natural feel of I can do this, I've got this, I am excellent at this, women tend to have an attitude of am I good enough, is my best acceptable, I've got to do more to be accepted.

One area this has been proven is in Maths at high school, if you ask boys how good they are they will in general be confident that they are very good. Girls on the other hand will be less confident in their abilities yet will in general get better exam scores. Add this to the fact that gender stereotypes are ingrained by the age of 10 (more here (https://www.newscientist.com/article/2147963-kids-everywhere-have-damaging-gender-stereotyping-set-by-age-10/)), you will see why better achievement in STEM at school does not translate to more women in engineering.

How does this relate to women in photography? Well I would suggest that whilst a man may revel in the glory of being an ambassador for a brand a women may not feel confident enough to have their abilities critiqued by the masses such a position would attract.

Now I don't know that photography is mans world, it is not something I have really thought about. I know a lot of women photographers but they tend to be in the area of babies, pregnancy and family photography. When you look at landscapes, I see more men, as well as aviation (that is male dominated to the extreme but you would expect that going back to the engineering) and automotive. But if I think about well known photographers, and to be honest I don't really follow famous photographers, apart from Anne Geddes when I think of women photographers I am hard pressed (and again she is in the world of babies and kids), but that may be me not really following any.

Whatever the industry a lack of role models is a problem. It is becoming a problem in teaching, there are not enough men, it is a problem in nursing, again not enough men, in engineering and STEM. Gender diversity is important because we all have a different point of view and we need them to solve the problems of the world. (wow that was a bit deep) But you catch my drift. Balance is important and whilst I never in a million years expect there to be 50/50 in engineering it is important that everyone feels comfortable doing any job.

Thanks for reading.

[jim]

So in other words, Roo, sexism doesn't have to be the result of anyone's conscious choice? It can be systemic (social or institutional) and perhaps unrecognised even by people who think they're on the lookout for it?

[rellik666]

So in other words, Roo, sexism doesn't have to be the result of anyone's conscious choice? It can be systemic (social or institutional) and perhaps unrecognised even by people who think they're on the lookout for it?

Most definitely. I am more than aware of it but I still get caught off guard. Unconscious bias is a problem most people don't even realise exists.

[Steve Axford]

In my experience there are just as many pro photographers who are women as there are men, and the skill levels are about the same. To become an ambassador usually takes someone approaching the manufacturer and telling them how good him or her is. From what you say, it could be the case that far less women are cocky enough to ask.

[rellik666]

In my experience there are just as many pro photographers who are women as there are men, and the skill levels are about the same. To become an ambassador usually takes someone approaching the manufacturer and telling them how good him or her is. From what you say, it could be the case that far less women are cocky enough to ask.

I wouldn't be surprised if that this was the case tbh. :th3:

[arthurking83]

.... Almost all photographers will be proficient at the D850 if they actually are photographers and they are given the camera and lenses ....

You recently found yourself in the situation described here with a D3(as per your comments in my other thread) .. I also have recently with the little D5500.
Much fumbling around the menu system trying to find how to get focus point wrap around!

if I were a manufacturer and I had the option of a macan who was proficient with the device .. and a photographer with accolades to the hilt but not proficient with the device .. I'd always choose the macan .. even if that meant possible copyright proceedings against me!

And when I mean proficient, I don't mean point the device and take a nice looking image. I mean know where and what each item in every menu does/means/and affects.

I know how to set up focus tracking with lock on, on both the D800 and D300, and even how it affects different lenses I have. I have no idea how to get into that same menu on a Canon, Sony(if they even have it) .. etc.
Interested customer comes up to me (the numbskull ambassador for a device I know nothing about), asks me how to set up 'focus tracking with lock on' setting and what's the difference between one setting an another.
Of course I know nothing about it let along it was even a thing .. and that interested customer now thinks I'm a fool(not knowing simple basic setup advice for the device). How does that look for the manufacturer?

I know how I'd react to that situation if I were the customer .. straight onto AP .. new thread .. "this person claiming to be an expert on <new camera body> is an idiot" :D

While it'd be nice to live in a dream world where all this is about photography ... the harsh reality is that it's about selling cameras ... live view marketing I guess.
The photographs make the ambassador look like the next best thing since <whatever her name was that won the last big award!> ... and their knowledge of the camera at hand makes them look like a camera control god/goddess.
That's what corporations want. Good photographers are a 'dime a dozen' nowadays!

[Steve Axford]

Unfortunately, Arthur, you are not a camera manufacturer and thus don't get to choose. I don't know how Nikon chooses, but I assume it is similar to their competitors. They don't seem to care if you are a techno wizkid and why would they? They will always go for someone who can take great photos rather than someone who can make the camera do loop the loop. And why would they care if you are already proficient with the camera, since nobody is before it is released. They find people who they think will be good advertisements and give them the early release cameras. Maybe a couple of their ambassadors need to be techy people, but not most of them.
As for your comment about what you'd do. Why would they care, as somebody on the internet will always do that (and everything else too). Anyway, most people buy cameras to take photographs, not to admire the specs. DPReview and sites like that cover the specs. The ambassadors show that the camera can take real pictures. They're not there to help you with the knobs and menus.

[arthurking83]

Unfortunately, Arthur, you are not a camera manufacturer and thus don't get to choose. I don't know how Nikon chooses, but I assume it is similar to their competitors. They don't seem to care if you are a techno wizkid and why would they? They will always go for someone who can take great photos rather than someone who can make the camera do loop the loop. ....

I'm thinking that Nikon may be different then:


The Nikon Ambassadors are authorized by Nikon to demonstrate to the public and professional image makers the capabilities and use of Nikon imaging products, but the expressive content of their work is solely their own. Nikon Ambassadors are independent contractors and visual artists and are not employees of Nikon. Nikon Ambassadors are responsible for the content of their photographs, websites, exhibitions, and visual images and the manner in which such content and images are obtained. Any messages, beliefs, or viewpoints expressed in the Nikon Ambassadors’ photographs, websites, exhibitions, or visual images do not necessarily reflect the opinions, beliefs or viewpoints of Nikon or any Nikon employee.

the important section of that disclaimer which appears at the bottom of the ambassadors page is:

The Nikon Ambassadors are authorized by Nikon to demonstrate to the public and professional image makers the capabilities and use of Nikon imaging products

I didn't hypothesise all my previous comments just because I can .. I guessed at because this is the disclaimer at the bottom of many of their ambassador pages!

how do you demonstrate the capabilities of something if you don't know how to operate it?
Seems a bit silly to allow someone to demonstrate something with no prior knowledge of it, or is that the way of the future now?

Or are you implying that Nikon is lying with that disclaimer and that the ambassadors aren't really authorised to demonstrate Nikon's products capabilities and usage?
I'm curious as to what insider info you have that Nikon's claims are false there, as you seem so adamant that these ambassadors don't need to know how to use the products?

There's a difference between being a techy person, and knowing where the wireless flash menu is, and how to enable/disable it ..
Or the sport/wildlife photographer knowing what AF-On with priority set to AF and how to decouple the shutter from exposure in the different priority modes!
I've never stated that they need to be techy persons .. and know the ins and outs of the makeup of the sensor, or how the Expeed 5 processor does it's thing .. simple menu things that could make a D3 nicer to use.

That's not techy .. that's just knowing the menu, and how to set the camera to shoot raw or jpg, or raw + jpg!!

And this comment:


... Maybe a couple of their ambassadors need to be techy people, but not most of them ...
Maybe .. the Nikon Asia ambassadors that were techy were 32 male, 1 female, and they asked that one female to attend, and she couldn't.
The only possible conclusion here is that Nikon Asia are sexist, and/or gender biased ... and not that the one woman was busy and that any other women could be bothered or were disinterested.

The new outlets just look for headlines that grab attention. The vast majority of the general population reading those headline aren't interested in the industry nor the article. We, being interested in the industry, read the article. There are enough comments re that article to suggest it's a bogus headline, where Nikon explained themselves. Irrespective of how valid or pathetic that explanation was .. we can only take it as they state it.

[Kym]

A comment on a forum?

Yes, it all depends who wrote it... i.e. a Nikon employee - but meh!

[arthurking83]

Oh!

I forgot to ask this yesterday too:

does this video show Nikon as being gender biased or gender neutral?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/new-nikon-d850

You don't need to watch it all tho.
Summary is:
First 5 mins if animated guff.
Next 40 mins has a female presenter, two Nikon photographers (1male 1 female) and one Nikon employee (being the techy person)
The 4 of them discuss aspects of the D850 as a still camera, as Steve implied the togs discuss about how great the camera is and how it helps them make photos, the techy guy explains the tech stuff.

I actually didn't watch it, just skipped here and there, so I have no real idea on what they actually talked about. It was actually quite boring.

part 2 of the vid from about the middle of the stream.
1 woman and 3 guys.
Same presenter woman as before, 2 video guys, and a different tech guy explaining the video tech stuff.

Part one shows gender neutrality(@ 50%) .. pretty silly of a gender biased company to do that!
Then we have gender inequality(@ 25%) .. now that's more like it! :rolleyes: This is the Nikon we've been informed about.
ps. that vid predates(28/8) the faux news from Nikon Asia .. so there's no cover up there either.

[Steve Axford]

I'm thinking that Nikon may be different then:



the important section of that disclaimer which appears at the bottom of the ambassadors page is:

The Nikon Ambassadors are authorized by Nikon to demonstrate to the public and professional image makers the capabilities and use of Nikon imaging products

I didn't hypothesise all my previous comments just because I can .. I guessed at because this is the disclaimer at the bottom of many of their ambassador pages!

how do you demonstrate the capabilities of something if you don't know how to operate it?
Seems a bit silly to allow someone to demonstrate something with no prior knowledge of it, or is that the way of the future now?

Or are you implying that Nikon is lying with that disclaimer and that the ambassadors aren't really authorised to demonstrate Nikon's products capabilities and usage?
I'm curious as to what insider info you have that Nikon's claims are false there, as you seem so adamant that these ambassadors don't need to know how to use the products?

There's a difference between being a techy person, and knowing where the wireless flash menu is, and how to enable/disable it ..
Or the sport/wildlife photographer knowing what AF-On with priority set to AF and how to decouple the shutter from exposure in the different priority modes!
I've never stated that they need to be techy persons .. and know the ins and outs of the makeup of the sensor, or how the Expeed 5 processor does it's thing .. simple menu things that could make a D3 nicer to use.

That's not techy .. that's just knowing the menu, and how to set the camera to shoot raw or jpg, or raw + jpg!!

And this comment:


Maybe .. the Nikon Asia ambassadors that were techy were 32 male, 1 female, and they asked that one female to attend, and she couldn't.
The only possible conclusion here is that Nikon Asia are sexist, and/or gender biased ... and not that the one woman was busy and that any other women could be bothered or were disinterested.

The new outlets just look for headlines that grab attention. The vast majority of the general population reading those headline aren't interested in the industry nor the article. We, being interested in the industry, read the article. There are enough comments re that article to suggest it's a bogus headline, where Nikon explained themselves. Irrespective of how valid or pathetic that explanation was .. we can only take it as they state it.

Maybe you are right. I was thinking that their ambassadors would be similar to other ambassadors, but maybe they are just expected to be trainers.

- - - Updated - - -


Yes, it all depends who wrote it... i.e. a Nikon employee - but meh!

For some reason that makes no difference

[swifty]

I can definitely see where Arthur is coming from and I would desperately love to hear first hand accounts from the women who are supposedly being so hard done by here. If there are real stories from real women who think there is a great injustice occurring here, there's a story.

Otherwise, are people perhaps creating an inconvenience where it may not really exist? It just happens far too often in the modern world. Not every single thing needs to be an issue, surely?


Precisely.
But as I had said earlier about people in privileged positions can often be oblivious to issues with minorities.
So yes, I'd also like to hear from our female colleagues.

- - - Updated - - -


This is a subject close to my heart. So apologies if I go off on a tangent.

I have no idea who is male or female on this thread, apologies, well except a couple obviously, Rick and Arthur as whilst the name may suggest it, I have actually met him so I can be fairly confident of the genders there.

I have done a lot of research into gender diversity in engineering. I know not quite photography but I think some of the challenges are aligned.

Anyhow one of the reasons, apart from unconscious bias (test your own here (https://www.diversityaustralia.com.au/test-your-own-unconscious-bias/)), the need to be part of a group and a lack of role models, is confidence.

Whilst there are more similarities between men and women then there are differences, one aspect that has stood out is that women lack confidence in areas they feel they are not represented equally in. Where as men tend to have a natural feel of I can do this, I've got this, I am excellent at this, women tend to have an attitude of am I good enough, is my best acceptable, I've got to do more to be accepted.

One area this has been proven is in Maths at high school, if you ask boys how good they are they will in general be confident that they are very good. Girls on the other hand will be less confident in their abilities yet will in general get better exam scores. Add this to the fact that gender stereotypes are ingrained by the age of 10 (more here (https://www.newscientist.com/article/2147963-kids-everywhere-have-damaging-gender-stereotyping-set-by-age-10/)), you will see why better achievement in STEM at school does not translate to more women in engineering.

How does this relate to women in photography? Well I would suggest that whilst a man may revel in the glory of being an ambassador for a brand a women may not feel confident enough to have their abilities critiqued by the masses such a position would attract.

Now I don't know that photography is mans world, it is not something I have really thought about. I know a lot of women photographers but they tend to be in the area of babies, pregnancy and family photography. When you look at landscapes, I see more men, as well as aviation (that is male dominated to the extreme but you would expect that going back to the engineering) and automotive. But if I think about well known photographers, and to be honest I don't really follow famous photographers, apart from Anne Geddes when I think of women photographers I am hard pressed (and again she is in the world of babies and kids), but that may be me not really following any.

Whatever the industry a lack of role models is a problem. It is becoming a problem in teaching, there are not enough men, it is a problem in nursing, again not enough men, in engineering and STEM. Gender diversity is important because we all have a different point of view and we need them to solve the problems of the world. (wow that was a bit deep) But you catch my drift. Balance is important and whilst I never in a million years expect there to be 50/50 in engineering it is important that everyone feels comfortable doing any job.

Thanks for reading.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I guess where I was sort of going with the female:male competition entrants comment has something to do with what you said about confidence. I was thinking something along the lines of are men more likely to strive for recognition and accolades?
And if ambassadorship can be seen as such, could some of discrepancies in gender distribution be attributed to this? Hence I was interested in how this whole ambassador program works.

But I think you also touched on an important point regarding role models. And I think you're absolutely right. Regardless of the circumstances that led to this oversight, it reflects poorly on Nikon, at least in western media and I think they have a responsibility to include more female role models if they want to be seen as a global company.

I think Arthur also raised some important issues regarding cultural differences. However I'd like to point out this doesn't appear to be just a western vs eastern thing. I've come to note that in my current country of residence, females are extremely well represented in the corporate world especially very high leadership positions in local Singaporean firms. So it is easy to stand on our high horses and point fingers at who's supposedly not doing the right things but things aren't always so rosy in our own gardens eg. senior Australian corporate culture is still dominated by white men. However it does appear women have an extremely low representation in Japanese firms so one has to wonder whether those ideology are being translated into their marketing drives.