Go the Trumpster?

[Steve Axford]

I remember a thread by this title was posted when trump was elected. With his latest withdrawal from the Climate Change Accords, I'm wondering if people think this is a move that will be good for anyone in the world. I spend most of my time documenting nature and his stupidity gives me the shivers. How do you feel?

[Tannin]

I think it may in fact be a positive thing, Steve. International agreements for this sort of thing practically always work very badly, if at all. The only one I can think of which has more-or-less worked was the ozone layer one, which was (so far as required action goes) very minor indeed. This move by Trump shows up the climate agreement as the very weak thing that it always was, and, with any luck, will force the responsible nations of the world to take more effective action. The simplest and most effective is tariff barriers to goods from the rouge nations (Syria, Nicaragua, USA). A 10% tariff on US goods by the EC nations, for example, would produce swift and effective results. This is what should have been done in the first place.

Counter-intuitively, over the medium-term I think that Trump's more-naked-than-usual insanity may well move us forward rather than backward.

[Steve Axford]

I do hope that you are right. I does seem to be true that his performance has made it less likely that right wing lunies will get elected (in spite of the hopes of some). We now seem to depend on the young, who are universally against trump and the climate skeptics, to actually vote

[Glenda]

I was watching the Drum yesterday and Adam Spencer made some good observations. With US states having a fair bit of autonomy he doubted California and Florida which are heavily invested in renewable energy would change their policies, nor most of the larger companies which are against Trump withdrawing. Also the White House has apparently said it would follow the UN rules for withdrawing from the pact which means they cannot actually withdraw until around November 2020. This is the same time as the next Presidential election, where hopefully sanity will prevail, and Trump will be gone.

[Steve Axford]

You may be right, but trump can do a lot of damage and there are we are hoping that he is the only crazy out there. But of course we know he is not. After all, quite a few people did vote for him.
I think we do need to worry. Making a madman president of the USA isn't a sane thing to do, which brings into question our collective sanity or at least that of the US population (are we so different?)

[arthurking83]

... Making a madman president of the USA isn't a sane thing to do, which brings into question our collective sanity or at least that of the US population (are we so different?)

My understanding of the problem of Trump winning wasn't so much that the US population is as mad as he is, Clinton won the majority of the vote, but he won a slightly larger majority of a minority voting block within the greater voting population!

it's like Hanson becoming a Senator here in Aus.
If the voting was such that her seat was a nation wide campaign, I doubt she'd have even registered at all in the wider scheme of things.
But her electorate, voted her in, in part on her primary vote and via the preference deals she managed.

Some funny facts I've heard of about the general US population.
During the election, Clinton was unscrupulously reported to be associated with a Pizza restaurant that was supposedly exposed to operate a child slave/abuse ring.
Must surely have had an impact at the time, until it was exposed to be a 'Trumpism'!!

After the election tho, there as a poll as to how many believed that Clinton was actually associated with the ring(even tho the truth did come out) .. and many stil thought she was(ie. those that strongly believe in conspiracy theories)
What's hysterical was that of those that believed she was part of the ring, 18%(or so) still voted for her in the election! :confused013

ie. those (18%)folks don't seem to have any issue with electing a head of state that was in their eyes a leader of a child exploitation syndicate! :eek:

Says a lot for a 5th of the electorate's overall principles. ;)

Trump is there simply because of the flaws in the voting system they use.

The next question should be what are his chances of seeing out his 4 year term .. ie. before he's impeached(or in the unlikely situation he's forced to resign .. ala Nixon).
He meddles with the judiciary at his political peril ... and much rejoicing!

[Boo53]

The guest speaker at our last Photography Club meeting had spent 6 months working as a Photo Journalist in the US from Oct 2016 to April 2017, principally covering the "Marches" before and after the election over there.

Amongst the things Jeannette mentioned was that the marches, covered as Anti Trump over here, were attended by people with a wide variety of motivations, only about 30-40% anti trump. Other issues were anti various State Laws and discrimination against Women and Minorities.

Another thing she mentioned was that Hilliary Clinton is almost as disliked by the Left as Trump is but with their system there's little else on the Horizon. Also the pro Trump camp tend to be so insular the opinion of the rest of the world is either irrelevant or doesn't even register.

Hopefully the individual States will help drive things forward, but it appears that the economic realities will keep renewables moving forward. Certainly it appears that that is already the case in India

[Liney]

I have to say I'm not a big fan of Trump, but I can see that he's a business man first and a politician second. His priority is America and Americans, and sod the rest of us, which means he will do whatever he thinks will serve the majority of Americans with the best outcome.

I also think that a lot of the problems he's facing come down to those who did not support him undermining his authority in what could be classed as sabotage. I heard a commentator talking about the days when Americans would support "The President" regardless of who he was, but when Trump got elected all those "not my president" demonstrators have thrown away anything that could be classed as loyalty and seem to want to do something, anything even, to fight against this evil. The leaks are one example of this, the so called "fake news" is another where any piece of information is interpreted in a way to cast a bad light, and then spread through social media. America certainly appears to be a divided nation, I think the UK is going that way (regardless of who wins the general election next week there will be repercussions) but I reckon Australia has a bit to go yet before we reach the same levels.

[Steve Axford]

Arthur, I heard of a study by some psychologists that found that when people were told a lie that they believed, that was subsequently withdrawn, that 80% of them continued to believe that lie. There are many examples of this in politics. I don think I need to give examples.

While I would not liken Trump to Adolf Hitler, there are certain similarities in style. Goebels once said, “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." This is countered by Abraham Lincoln, who said "You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time." Let's hope Abraham Lincoln wins over Goebels with this one.

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I have to say I'm not a big fan of Trump, but I can see that he's a business man first and a politician second. His priority is America and Americans, and sod the rest of us, which means he will do whatever he thinks will serve the majority of Americans with the best outcome.

I also think that a lot of the problems he's facing come down to those who did not support him undermining his authority in what could be classed as sabotage. I heard a commentator talking about the days when Americans would support "The President" regardless of who he was, but when Trump got elected all those "not my president" demonstrators have thrown away anything that could be classed as loyalty and seem to want to do something, anything even, to fight against this evil. The leaks are one example of this, the so called "fake news" is another where any piece of information is interpreted in a way to cast a bad light, and then spread through social media. America certainly appears to be a divided nation, I think the UK is going that way (regardless of who wins the general election next week there will be repercussions) but I reckon Australia has a bit to go yet before we reach the same levels.

Perhaps serving America first is a little pointless when it comes to climate change? After all, the USA happens to share this planet that has this climate. That strikes me as a lose-lose situation. Surely even a businessman can see that?

As for him not getting a fair go. Surely you jest? What president has ever got a fair go?

[Mark L]

So let's get back to Steve's OP about Climate Change Accords. It's not all about Trump.
U.S.A.s withdrawal (which actually doesn't happen before 2020) may make all the other nations try harder?
Having said that, how hard do you think our govmint is trying. Let's go Adani.:th3:

[bricat]

I'll stick up for Trump. He has been elected by the people. If you don't like him, vote him out. There are too many whinges complaining about every little bit that he does. Every news story has a dig at him in some ways with innuendo, false news and no facts. Sure you can quote some things that he has stuffed up but I don't hear much about the good stuff he is doing. As a matter of fact I can't recall any good news story. That is unless you call withdrawal from the climate change accord good news. So in his 100 plus days in office how many good things has he achieved. Non according to our media. I stopped reading newspapers 20 odd years ago for all the drivel and BS that was published and the tv radio news reports are not much better
As far as climate change is concerned I have heard way too many claims from people in the know eg sciencetists that have been proved wrong. The fact of the matter is that our current thinking and knowledge suggests humans have caused this. This could well be proved wrong in time. Well on a trip to Alaska up the northwest passage we called into a fiord which was originally a glacier and had retreated some 100 miles (don't quote me exactly). This retreat had occurred long before the industrial revolution. Point being Mother Nature was doing her work.
We should all remember to have an open mind. Ps I am not a Trump fan at all or Clinton for that matter. But it certainly looks similar to Australians choice ie some politicians have selective memory at a Royal Commission
Ok let me have it......

[jim]

Brian, can you think of any Trump achievements that haven't been reported by the media?

[ricktas]

Here is a story andlittle clip (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4573882/Fake-news-row-Muslim-protesters-TV-crews.html) by a US based 'news' service. Now as this went to air, one could assume the media came across these protesters and decided to film them. but a behind the scenes video show an entirely different story.

The mainstream media is manipulating the public at every opportunity.

Having said that, there are current reports of China meddling in our politics. I personally do not blame the Chinese for this, but our own political parties. Politicians have lied to us for years, and when something comes out, and they deny it, who do we believe? Our politicians have created this. Lie to use, repeatedly, then when something comes out that is true, lie to us again. Creating a sense that we do not know what to believe. Politics has gone from being about nation building, which was its purpose when the Commonwealth of Australia was formed, to being about who can lie to the public the best.. and get away with it.

Donald Trump, for all his faults, is calling a lot of this out. I think the best thing he did was say no to the T.P.P. and he is showing the media up for their manipulations.

I also do not believe the Paris agreement or any other currently planned methods of halting climate change is going to work, too little, too late. As Stephen Hawking has stated, we are in the last 1000 years of human life on this planet. Sadly us humans are also going to take some amazing non-human species with us, and hopefully once we are gone, planet Earth can recover and renew.

[arthurking83]

I'll stick up for Trump. He has been elected by the people. If you don't like him, vote him out. .....

Read my post above.
Yes he was voted in, but the majority of the people's vote went to the opposition!

It was like in the old days of QLD voting that kept the Joh and the Nats in power for so long.
One farmer had the same voting power as an entire suburb! .. it's not the same as a rigged election, but to claim that the people voted elected him is a bit misleading.

And in recent elections here where obscure unknown candidates get elected with less than 1% of the vote, but 'get elected' as a consequence of preference deals made behind the scenes .. not popularity.

[Steve Axford]

Everyone says that they are not a trump fan. It seems that it is politically correct to deny liking him. I wouldn't have thought that you would want to be placed in the "politically correct" basket, Brian.

I, like Jim, would like to know which of trumps achievements haven't been reported in the press. They seem to report every tweet that trump makes.

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Here is a story andlittle clip (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4573882/Fake-news-row-Muslim-protesters-TV-crews.html) by a US based 'news' service. Now as this went to air, one could assume the media came across these protesters and decided to film them. but a behind the scenes video show an entirely different story.

The mainstream media is manipulating the public at every opportunity.

Having said that, there are current reports of China meddling in our politics. I personally do not blame the Chinese for this, but our own political parties. Politicians have lied to us for years, and when something comes out, and they deny it, who do we believe? Our politicians have created this. Lie to use, repeatedly, then when something comes out that is true, lie to us again. Creating a sense that we do not know what to believe. Politics has gone from being about nation building, which was its purpose when the Commonwealth of Australia was formed, to being about who can lie to the public the best.. and get away with it.

Donald Trump, for all his faults, is calling a lot of this out. I think the best thing he did was say no to the T.P.P. and he is showing the media up for their manipulations.

I also do not believe the Paris agreement or any other currently planned methods of halting climate change is going to work, too little, too late. As Stephen Hawking has stated, we are in the last 1000 years of human life on this planet. Sadly us humans are also going to take some amazing non-human species with us, and hopefully once we are gone, planet Earth can recover and renew.

It would appear that some press people lined up some protestors so the camera could see them. I didn't see any claims that they were a "rent-a-crowd". As far as Fake News goes it is about on the same level as asking someone to stand next to a tree to give it scale in your landscape photo.

I wonder what alternative you have to international agreements on climate change? Perhaps you favour the do nothing approach and move to another planet when we have stuffed this one? It's about 45 years since the first moon landings and we haven't really got any further with the interplanetary stuff.
It may not be certain what will happen, but we know that something will and all the indications are that it won't be good. We have the technology now so it would seem crazy not to proceed with the accord. Fortunately most people are ignoring trump. Even most US business leaders and even most fossil fuel business leaders.

[Tannin]

Amid a sea of disaster, Trump has achieved one thing of note: he cancelled the TPP (Trans-Pacific Partnership agreement). The TPP was a proposed trade agreement betwen the US and a stack of Pacific nations (including us) which was set to do tremendous damage to our economy (open slather imports, not a lot of benefit for exports bar two or three not-very-important industries), our legal system, and our ability to make our own laws in our own country (all sorts of nasty provisions shifting authority to foreign (read US) courts and foreign corporations). It was a genuine shocker of an agreement which was set to do us and all the smaller nations a great deal of harm, and deliver substantial benefits only to the USA.

From an American point of view, of course, it was a spectacularly good deal offering substantial benefits for very little cost, and it had taken them a solid decade of diplomatic threats and sweet-talk to persuade the other nations to bend over and take it. Trump was very stupid to cancel such a sweet deal, but no matter. It certainly saved our bacon.

[ricktas]

Everyone says that they are not a trump fan. It seems that it is politically correct to deny liking him. I wouldn't have thought that you would want to be placed in the "politically correct" basket, Brian.

I, like Jim, would like to know which of trumps achievements haven't been reported in the press. They seem to report every tweet that trump makes.

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It would appear that some press people lined up some protestors so the camera could see them. I didn't see any claims that they were a "rent-a-crowd". As far as Fake News goes it is about on the same level as asking someone to stand next to a tree to give it scale in your landscape photo.

I wonder what alternative you have to international agreements on climate change? Perhaps you favour the do nothing approach and move to another planet when we have stuffed this one? It's about 45 years since the first moon landings and we haven't really got any further with the interplanetary stuff.
It may not be certain what will happen, but we know that something will and all the indications are that it won't be good. We have the technology now so it would seem crazy not to proceed with the accord. Fortunately most people are ignoring trump. Even most US business leaders and even most fossil fuel business leaders.

I have no need to get into another ridiculous argument with you. I have stated my views, you can disagree if you like, but I have nothing further to add to my opinion, and I do not feel the need to refute yours.

[jim]

As Stephen Hawking has stated, we are in the last 1000 years of human life on this planet. Sadly us humans are also going to take some amazing non-human species with us, and hopefully once we are gone, planet Earth can recover and renew.

What an appallingly bleak view. I don't say you're wrong but I certainly hope so, and it would be a great disgrace if this sort of pessimism became an excuse for not even trying.

The Earth will eventually recover from almost anything. That's a given.

[Mark L]

The mainstream media is manipulating the public at every opportunity.
.....
Donald Trump, for all his faults, is calling a lot of this out. .... and he is showing the media up for their manipulations.



mmm, so Rupert's empire and Fox media are the media Trump is calling out. Of cause Rupert's empire doesn't manipulate.
I might start buying the Daily Telegraph to get a balanced view.

And in view of a few other comments here, this earth will live on even if humans aren't involved.

[martycon]

On a lighter note, I find DT to be the entertainment highlight of the year. I hope future years can still be seen in this lighter vein. Meantime DT has been seen to have the ability to change his mind. I was heartened when his press secretary announced that DT accepted that climate was changing, and that mankind may have had a very minor part in the process. Or was this just part of a pleasant dream?
a hopeful marty

[bricat]

Brian, can you think of any Trump achievements that haven't been reported by the media?

Im afraid Jim you have got me there

[ricktas]

What an appallingly bleak view. I don't say you're wrong but I certainly hope so, and it would be a great disgrace if this sort of pessimism became an excuse for not even trying.

The Earth will eventually recover from almost anything. That's a given.

You say pessimism, I say realism.

[jim]

It's almost a comfortable sort of pessimism though, isn't it? After all a thousand years is a long time. What if it's 50 years, and if we don't sort it out now our children get to participate in the great extinction event?

[Nick Cliff]

I recall David Suzuki saying that the problems of human overpopulation on the planet and the associated increase of pollution we all produce can really only be solved from the ground up, and that relying on politicians to clean up our mess is not the whole answer.
I recall being told by a psychologist that really we humans are just children with a lot to learn at this stage and hopefully we will clean up our act for future generations and not trash their future.
I see very encouraging signs from research done by our scientists that gives me hope we can transition to a low carbon economy far more rapidly than may have seemed possible.
There might be an interesting parallel here to something like Moores law once the momentum starts to build up re reducing and transitioning to a more holistic approach to managing our environment in the future.
Trump I feel has possibly made us take stock of the environment and perhaps consider scientists and their perceived climate hoax message by our politicians here and in the USA as part of the solution and not a nuisance problem for businesses to deal with.
I guess non of us like being told by our neighbors to clean up our mess:)
cheers Nick

[Steve Axford]

I agree that we cannot just rely on politicians. We have to be prepared to pay a little more for a while and to make environmental choices in our everyday lives, but - it is very hard for individuals to effect change to coal mines or power stations if the politicians are working in the opposite direction. But, we do have a vote and we should make it clear that we expect all of our politicians to move towards clean energy. It is not a left or right thing, it is a survival thing. At least it is survival in the world as we know it. Can anyone here imagine what the world would be like if we just carry on regardless (as trump would seem to suggest)? It certainly won't take 1000 years for the impact to be felt. We can already feel the effects. While last summer can't be blamed totally on climate change, we can be sure that the chances of that happening without climate change would have been minuscule - and the world has only heated by 1 degree so far. We are headed towards at least 3 degrees in 50 years even with the Paris Accords. That may not effect us, but it will most likely effect our children and certainly their children.

While trump gathers headlines our own politicians have been very lax in doing anything constructive. Perhaps the latest mutterings about bipartisan support will actually move us in the right direction. After all, a huge majority of Australians believe that climate change is happening and that it is primarily man made. It seems to me that we have allowed the splinter parties like Pauline Hanson's party to have a say that far outstrips their actual support. The opposition's tendency to take the opposite view to the government on all things has also played into this. They need to get back to the model where they only disagree strongly with the government when they really do disagree strongly.

The media must also take some blame. I picked up a newspaper on the weekend for the first time in ages and was amazed at the headlines on page 1. It was the Australian and all the headlines were written about extreme viewpoints. One example was "Quit Paris Agreement, urge Coalition MPs". If you read the text it said that a breakaway group of coalition MPs wanted this examined, but the headline implied it was the coalition. All the other headlines were like this. Written to attract attention I suppose with very little attention to the facts, at least in the headlines.

I think that one of the things we need to do is to remember to vote for the important things and then to insist that our politicians work to ensure the best results possible. Politicians who just want to get elected should be dumped quick smart. I'm no particular fan of either Turnbull or Shorten, but if they can start working together on the really important issues like climate change, then I think that they are doing their jobs.

[Mark L]

... Perhaps the latest mutterings about bipartisan support will actually move us in the right direction.
...... The opposition's tendency to take the opposite view to the government on all things has also played into this. They need to get back to the model where they only disagree strongly with the government when they really do disagree strongly.



So the opposition is offering some slack and supporting LET, the forth best option. Sigh :(

[Steve Axford]

Probably the best we can hope for at present. If it collects bipartisan support, then it has done something that nothing else has done so far, and, it will push Abbott out to the realms of irrelevancy. How many votes will he get when it is a clear choice between a climate policy and no climate policy? And we do need a climate policy. By far the majority of people in Australia agree with that (as they do in almost all countries). We can then move forward with strengthening the policy irrespective of who is in power at the time. I hope the USA does the same, irrespective of the mistake they made in having a system that allows a trump to get elected, even with a minority of votes. Systems are very hard to change. Maybe the trump fiasco will allow for some change, which will be a hugely positive thing.

[Steve Axford]

Here's an interesting way of presenting the climate change data https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/07/caring-about-climate-change-its-time-to-build-a-bridge-between-data-and-emotion?CMP=soc_567

[MissionMan]

I saw an article on anonymous of all places where they supported trump's decision to back out. I can't remember the exact numbers but they made it clear that america was getting the raw end of the stick with the agreement and the improvements implemented by the US would be undone by China's pollution in a 10 day period at a cost of $80 Billion

[Steve Axford]

I think we can safely ignore your vague memory of something that sounds like "fake news" anyway.
China is one of the major supporters of the Accords and will go ahead with or without US agreement. In fact no other country has withdrawn, in spite of the fears that some would follow the USA. The USA now joins the power house nations of Syria and Nicaragua as the only nations not to sign the Accord (and I thought that trump didn't like Syria). By the way, even the US withdrawal is delayed until 2020, when the next US presidential election is! Of course there are no penalties if the USA doesn't meet it's targets. There never were, so where the $80 billion comes from is a puzzle.

[MissionMan]

I think we can safely say that's a very impolite response to someone's comment


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MissionMan]

Again, the Green Climate Fund would require America to send up to half a trillion dollars a year to developing countries.

http://www.anonews.co/donald-reasons-withdrawing/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Steve Axford]

I do apologise for any offence, but you seemed to be trivialising an important issue by posting some vague memories without any reference.
Are you suggesting that you agree with this article which you have now posted?
There is no requirement to do anything under the Paris Accords. Countries volunteer to do things , so I'm not sure how anyone could be forced to pay half a trillion dollars (which is about 3% of GDP).

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For your interest MM. This is what I found about anonews.
anonews.co, anonhq.com and many other websites and fan pages claiming to be the official voice of the online hacktivist group Anonymous. However the reality is far different from the truth — These pages have no affiliation with Anonymous, they are rather click-baiting money making machines. Posting non-relevant copy paste articles and videos from all over the Internet. And many people on Facebook are deceived and fall for the scam pages and become fans and share the shady content far and wide. The primary driver of the owners of these pages is to earn some bucks in the name of Anonymous. READ MORE: http://www.disclose.tv/news/who_is_anonewsco_anonhqcom_not_anonymous_for_sure/136289

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I have searched the internet for anything that would list the savings to the USA of withdrawing from the Paris Accords. I can find nothing. There is a mass of articles on how much it will cost the USA by withdrawing, but nothing on savings, at least not in the first 30 or so articles. I guess that's what trump means by Fake News. It means news that doesn't agree with what he says.

[bobt]

The Earth will eventually recover from almost anything. That's a given.

What an extraordinary statement. I would be interested to know how the planet will recover from the endemic pollution, the ravages of Man and the total disregard for our planet we have shown ever since we crawled out of the oceans. Anyone who believes that we can do whatever we like to the planet, and it will miraculously shrug that off and continue to be healthy is simply misguided.

Personally, I don't feel that we are achieving anything by debating whether climate change is real or not. What we need to do is simply consider how we should live and treat this planet given that it's the only one we have. Do we trash our own homes? Hopefully not, but surely it is a matter of plain common sense that we should live and behave in a manner which maintains the integrity of our planet/home and that we should treat each other and our planet with respect. We can argue about the relative impact of humans or the ravages of time, but the bottom line is simply this ...... be nice to our planet and it will be nice to us. Until it explodes .... but none of us will be around by then, and hopefully mankind will have found somewhere new to live by then.

[MissionMan]

Whilst I don't agree with the article, but I think there is some relevance or some merit if the comments about the Green Climate Fund are correct. If the USA feels like they are getting the raw end of the stick on the deal, I think Trump is fully within his rights to pull out, in fact, as the president he has a duty to question these things and ensure he is getting the best outcome for his country. That is what presidents do.

[Steve Axford]

If you are interested if any of the claims made in that article are correct then you should do some research. Google is a good place to start. You just need to be aware that not everything that is written is true. Check things to see if other articles from reputable sources agree.

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What an extraordinary statement. I would be interested to know how the planet will recover from the endemic pollution, the ravages of Man and the total disregard for our planet we have shown ever since we crawled out of the oceans. Anyone who believes that we can do whatever we like to the planet, and it will miraculously shrug that off and continue to be healthy is simply misguided.

Personally, I don't feel that we are achieving anything by debating whether climate change is real or not. What we need to do is simply consider how we should live and treat this planet given that it's the only one we have. Do we trash our own homes? Hopefully not, but surely it is a matter of plain common sense that we should live and behave in a manner which maintains the integrity of our planet/home and that we should treat each other and our planet with respect. We can argue about the relative impact of humans or the ravages of time, but the bottom line is simply this ...... be nice to our planet and it will be nice to us. Until it explodes .... but none of us will be around by then, and hopefully mankind will have found somewhere new to live by then.

In Jim's defence, I think he may mean that the earth will continue with, or without us. We may leave the planet as a radioactive blob, but give it a few million years and it will start something new. If not, the universe won't care. We place a lot of importance on us, but we really don't matter, unless we make us matter. Destroying ourselves doesn't make us matter. The universe doesn't care if we stuff things up, that only matters to us.
As I happen to be one of us, I hope we can make the decisions that gives us the best chance of surviva, because I do believe that we can destroy this world as a suitable habitation for humans. But the earth will recover - probably.

[jim]

What an extraordinary statement. I would be interested to know how the planet will recover from the endemic pollution, the ravages of Man and the total disregard for our planet we have shown ever since we crawled out of the oceans. Anyone who believes that we can do whatever we like to the planet, and it will miraculously shrug that off and continue to be healthy is simply misguided.

Personally, I don't feel that we are achieving anything by debating whether climate change is real or not. What we need to do is simply consider how we should live and treat this planet given that it's the only one we have. Do we trash our own homes? Hopefully not, but surely it is a matter of plain common sense that we should live and behave in a manner which maintains the integrity of our planet/home and that we should treat each other and our planet with respect. We can argue about the relative impact of humans or the ravages of time, but the bottom line is simply this ...... be nice to our planet and it will be nice to us. Until it explodes .... but none of us will be around by then, and hopefully mankind will have found somewhere new to live by then.

bobt, google the Siberian Traps. While we are well on course to making the planet uninhabitable for ourselves and a variety of other species, there is literally nothing we can do to it that comes close to the disasters that have happened quite naturally in the past. And eventually the Earth has recovered from everything.

Of course that's cold comfort if you care about us, which I certainly do.


Oops, didn't read past bobt's post. Steve said it better.

[arthurking83]

.....
China is one of the major supporters of the Accords and will go ahead with or without US agreement. In fact no other country has withdrawn .....

Major LOL here Steve.

If that's meant to mean something .. it should be noted that this is the same Chinese Government that still hides the truth of Tiananmen Square, oppresses Tibet, pillages the South China Sea (contrary to UN resolutions) .. continues to dump steel at huge losses(absorbed by the Government) manufactured in plants with pre Industrial Revolution technology .. etc, etc.
Just closing one of those old steel plants would probably be equivalent to most nations ceasing carbon emissions completely!

Any other government used as a ideological reference point would make sense .. but China has to be laughable.
Chinese government has an agenda known only to themselves. They won't freely give up their only advantage with nothing in return for themselves!

[bobt]

In Jim's defence, I think he may mean that the earth will continue with, or without us. We may leave the planet as a radioactive blob, but give it a few million years and it will start something new. If not, the universe won't care. We place a lot of importance on us, but we really don't matter, unless we make us matter. Destroying ourselves doesn't make us matter. The universe doesn't care if we stuff things up, that only matters to us.
As I happen to be one of us, I hope we can make the decisions that gives us the best chance of survival, because I do believe that we can destroy this world as a suitable habitation for humans. But the earth will recover - probably.

Perhaps that is true, but really outside the frame of reference. I guess it depends upon the time-frame that we are considering. In the overall scheme of things, and on the timescale of infinity, then it's true that the Earth isn't much more than an atom in comparison to the Universe. However, we can only realistically consider the time of Man, infinitesimal though that might be. So on a practical level we need to focus on the here and now, meaning the foreseeable future of our planet and ourselves. With that period in our sights, all I am saying is that although our capacity to control the future is extremely limited, anything we can do to preserve our environment should be a priority.

[Steve Axford]

Arthur, You clearly have some gripes with the Chinese government, and they are far from perfect, but we are talking about climate change and not Tienamin Square, or US civil rights, or Australian stolen generations, so let's keep it to that, if you don't mind. I know that China can be very single minded when they decide to do something, and they do seem to have decided that ollution and climate change is a major issue. Mainly because the Chinese people are complaining so much, but they are taking notice. We went to Kunming in 2015 and again in 2016 and in the space of a year they suddenly all had solar hot water. I just one year! The Chinese government would drive us crazy, but so would trump. I have trouble deciding which is better. I suppose it has to be the USA, but only if they manage to get rid of trump. I am losing faith in US democracy that only allows the rich to get elected. I hope that never happens here.

[jim]

Perhaps that is true, but really outside the frame of reference. I guess it depends upon the time-frame that we are considering. In the overall scheme of things, and on the timescale of infinity, then it's true that the Earth isn't much more than an atom in comparison to the Universe. However, we can only realistically consider the time of Man, infinitesimal though that might be. So on a practical level we need to focus on the here and now, meaning the foreseeable future of our planet and ourselves. With that period in our sights, all I am saying is that although our capacity to control the future is extremely limited, anything we can do to preserve our environment should be a priority.

It seems we're talking about different things, but when we talk about the same thing we're in agreement.

[bobt]

I am losing faith in US democracy that only allows the rich to get elected. I hope that never happens here.

Oh they allow more than just the rich. They accept stupid people as well, but then so do we. :rolleyes:

[Steve Axford]

Perhaps that is true, but really outside the frame of reference. I guess it depends upon the time-frame that we are considering. In the overall scheme of things, and on the timescale of infinity, then it's true that the Earth isn't much more than an atom in comparison to the Universe. However, we can only realistically consider the time of Man, infinitesimal though that might be. So on a practical level we need to focus on the here and now, meaning the foreseeable future of our planet and ourselves. With that period in our sights, all I am saying is that although our capacity to control the future is extremely limited, anything we can do to preserve our environment should be a priority.

I agree. I believe that we are only important to ourselves and we need to be responsible without any assumption that somebody else thinks we are important, and will look after us. They won't We are alone and we'd best look out for ourselves - and that doesn't mean in the trump way, that means cooperting to do the best for all of us.

[arthurking83]

Arthur, You clearly have some gripes with the Chinese government ...

Not specifically no!
But on the one hand they give the outward appearance of doing something for the climate by agreeing to this "Paris Accord", yet behind the scenes they refuse to cut production in those antiquated steel plants that produce excessive carbon emissions, even by pre 1900's standards... and the final sub par quality product is produced at a financial loss to boot! They (force)dump it on the world market simply to eliminate the competition ... their only goal being to monopolise the market in the future.

Yeah, sure they put up solar panels to show the world they're going 'green', but at what hidden cost?
Can't begin to imagine the working conditions for the poor souls labouring to produce 'sub par' again solar panels .. once again for the purpose of monopolising the solar panel market for world dominance in the future .. again!

This is whey they'll end up pushing for Paris Accord goals, or even stricter emissions reductions.
They need to enforce some kind of mandated requirement for many countries to adopt renewable energy sources to force the markets to adopt renewable tech. It just so happens that they manufacture those renewable technologies .. but in the background produce far more pollution during the production phase of those renewable systems, than the renewable tech is supposed to save!

For the Chinese government it's all about showing the world how clean they're going to be, meanwhile hidden in the no go zones, are the pre 1900 era smokehouses that power their booming economy.
Who's policing their emissions targets?
We can be fairly confident that our EPA is not dictated too by the government in power at the time.
If there is a failure in the EPA department, we can usually rely on a generally independent and outspoken press to highlight those deficiencies.
I doubt very much that the equivalent Chinese government EPA service isn't dictated too by the powers that be in the government .. and if there was a failing of the emissions overseer in China, which new agency is willing to take the Chinese government to task!

It's all reeking of British colonialism all over again, 200 years on, which itself is a throwback to the Roman empire 1800 years before it. With the dilution of the British Empire rises American colonialism (about 70 years ago), and the Chinese want in on that pie too.
In a nutshell .. who controls what? .. What we think, what we buy. For the Americans it's what laws we're going to be allowed to follow.
For the Chinese, it's all about what products we're going to be allowed to buy. Pay for a few MP's travel expenses ... bribe a few more on the other side with expensive gifts .. and next thing you know, we get zero tariffs on all imported goods from that country and they get minimal tariffs on a few select exports to their country.

The reference back to TSq, Tibet and South China Sea colonisation is simply to highlight the Chinese government's total lack of and disregard for world order and respect.
Do you really think that Chinese acceptance of the Paris Accord has anything to do with controlling carbon emissions?
Any such thoughts are a delusion.
Their only interest in Paris is about the business it will generate for them in terms of added output. How else will they continue their 8% GDP increase over the coming generation?
There's only so much crappy steel the world needs(or wants .. or can even tolerate!), crappy plastic goods that break on opening the packaging was always only a temporary income stream for them, while they endeavour to perfect the production of goods to reliable standards.
Happened to Japan 40-50 years ago .. if you spoke of Japanese made goods, they were looked down on back then as sub par .. crappily made rubbish, just as we do now with crappy made Chinese products.
Their plan is to monopolise goods production first .. just like the Japanese did. Then they'll be in the position to dominate world financial control ... just like the Japanese did about 20-30 odd years ago.
make no mistake, the Paris agreement to the Chinese is all about doing more business for them. Nothing to do with climate. They care as much about the climate as does Trump!
Caring about the climate doesn't produce a stream of trillions in income. Producing products that require the rest of the world to be cleaner does.

No offence to Chinese folks out there, but until their government allows an open and free press, reforms the government system to an open and free type, and floats their currency .. all actions taken by the government should be viewed as as having an ulterior motive and hidden agendas.

[Steve Axford]

Yep, you do have a gripe. Start another thread.

[arthurking83]

Yep, you do have a gripe. Start another thread.

Nope .. I can assure you I don't.

I may have just misplaced my rose coloured glasses :p
(actually I do have a gripe .. that they've allowed the production of sub par products, totally devoid of the notion of quality ... for such a long period of time)

Love or hate US politics and their generally corrupt business practises .. at least they have an open press.
If they didn't, do you reckon we'd be hearing about James Covey type news items. Do you reckon we'd have ever heard about Watergate, Reagan's hostages for arms deal .. or Clinton lying about his infidelities?

When was the last time you heard about corrupt Chinese political behaviour.
Realistically .. how many millions of people in the party system in China, and not a single corrupt politician?
An untrustworthy government can not be trusted .. end of story!

In your OP you asked:


.... With his latest withdrawal from the Climate Change Accords, I'm wondering if people think this is a move that will be good for anyone in the world. ....
Just because you suffer Trumpophobia, and hence by definition biased against anything Trump does, you should also question the other side of the equation.
Chinese acceptance of Paris, will probably do more harm to the common good than Trumps non acceptance of it!

ps. for the sake of clarity, I'm also a confirmed follower of the anti Trump movement. Jaw dropped at the news he beat H.Clinton!
Clinton herself can't be trusted, but as the lesser of two evils is the best case scenario by default, she wins hands down!
I live in the hope that the James Covey/Russiagate controversy is just the beginning of the end for the Trumpster!.. or that any anti Trump new item is the beginning of the end for him :D


.. anyhow, I'll start my own thread then .. look out for the Paris, unicorns and pots of gold at the end of rainbows thread title. :p

[Nick Cliff]

The thing with climate change and trying to save the future survival of our species in the is we can forget the people that have foregone a comfortable life in the world of science who have chosen a path of living a good life to try and help their fellow man despite death threats, jail and legal action and massive job insecurity in our so called free world.
When they lose their jobs they then become another doctor, lawyer, teacher or businessman, that is the free market at work. The interesting mindset that these people are parasites amazes me, I recall when I was at school being told I had no right to be there because my father was a scientist and he was in effect a parasite. This guy went on to become the school captain, the right stuff apparently. His farm was saved by science using biological controls to save his family from ruin, yet he could not see the importance of this very rare scientific intellect beyond the farm gate.
I hope we are over this mindset that these people in the scientific community "hate their fellow humans" as some politicians have asserted because they are the people taking the risks with job insecurity and or death threats and legal actions in the free world and I hope in Trumps America this does not continue with this anti scientific method and dangerous alternative facts mindset that is now starting to gain acceptance in the USA.
The reason I mention this is I recall Churchill saying that in life only a few people are capable of doing the heavy lifting.
China has a way to go with developing a culture that uses the scientific method well and this is a problem with their system of government.
The world I feel is transitioning gradually to more rational dialog on dealing with climate chaos now as the predictions for climate change become apparent.
Insurance companies have a more realistic view of what the future holds, good luck on keeping your insurance policies at a minimum if you live in areas of flooding as I am aware of in Brisbane now.
So in essence we need China with it's remarkable ability to manufacture affordable solar panels etc.. and adapt very rapidly to technological updates, this kind of engineering they do extremely well.
The USA is a nation of such diversity and bravery, there is so much good and bad with a nation basically were most decisions are largely based on business as we know.
The USA is transitioning out of coal with I understand 400 coal fired power plants shut down or closing in the near future while I have seen reports China is still building in the order of another 200 coal fired power stations and India similar numbers so Adani will need our coal for another 50 years or so if they keep these power station running for their full operational capability.
Personally these coal fired power plants do not worry me too much as the cost of solar power and power storage technology is dropping so dramatically that I cannot see how coal fired power stations will survive without government subsidies in the future as we are starting to see here in Oz.
So I do not see the USA as being the bad boy here with climate action, perhaps we need more balanced reporting and fact checking as Steve says when we read any news, I find google is good.
:)
cheers Nick

[Steve Axford]

I'll not try to reply to all your gripes, Arthur, as I am no expert on China, but I have now been there 4 times and I have the distinct impression that they are changing fast - and generally for the better. When I first went in 2001 they seemed very backward and rural minorities seemed to get a very bad deal, but things are changing.
I'll give you an example. The Chinese government, like many governments, realised that the mass migration of rural people into the cities was going to cause major problems, so they did something. They go to rural villages and build them new houses to live in and new roads so they can get their produce to market. And it works. They people are much happier as they don't want to move to the city and now they are more affluent as they can sell their produce which commands a good price in the cities. Of course, some policies get twisted out of shape or are bad. They have decided (they being the Chinese government), that 20% of the land area will be forest by 2020. An ambitious target! In areas where there are no trees it is good as people get subsidised to plant forests, but in forested areas they sometimes cut down the native forest and replant with rubber (or other monoculture) in order to get the subsidy. My point is not that they are perfect, but that they are improving rapidly. The USA, on the other hand, is going backwards. I hope this will stop soon, but it does make us all nervous (well, most of us).
My travels to China has made me see them as people the same as we are, and to understand a little of their history over the last 100 years. In Yunnan (which I know best), they were outside of the Japanese invasion, but only just. The Japanese tried to destroy them by bombing their cities with bombs containing things like cholera, anthrax and bubonic plague. Plague lasted there until the 50s and some cities were uninhabitable until then. Yunnan was also a crucial area in the Chinese civil war and the Long March. Then they had the famines under Mao. Life has been very tough for quite a long time. It is amazing how things have changed. I should say that my recent visits to China have been at the invitation of the Kunming Institute of Botany, to photograph fungi in their forests. To do this we spend time in rural villages and get a feel for what life is like there. There are no tourists at those locations, though I don't think they are banned.