Now Fuji go medium format

[Hamster]

Hot on the heels of the Hasselblad X1D comes Fuji's latest.
http://www.theverge.com/2016/9/19/12969576/fujifilm-gfx-medium-format-mirroless-photokina-2016

This is becoming an interesting segment of the market for people looking to get the extra detail and dynamic range of these MF sensors. I wonder what the price will be.
Maybe the Sony A9 will get announced as well. Not MF but sounds interesting.

[MissionMan]

I think Fuji will bring traditionally expensive realms of photography to a new group of users. I started another post about being more than a little disappointed about Canikon at the event.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hamster]

I think Fuji will bring traditionally expensive realms of photography to a new group of users. I started another post about being more than a little disappointed about Canikon at the event.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, Canikon do seem to be falling behind a bit, especially Canon if image quality and dynamic range are your thing.
It may take a while for the full range of lenses to be available for the Fuji though and 120 mm (35 mm equivalent) seemed to be the longest planned to date. Not sure I'd want to jump until I can get the ones I need. But it's good to see the direction things are heading, at least for what I do.

[arthurking83]

Fuji used to have (I think they still have them? :confused013) medium format film system.

Would be good if they had an adapter available for the old lenses to suit the shorter backfocus distance of this new format.

[I @ M]

It may take a while for the full range of lenses to be available for the Fuji though and 120 mm (35 mm equivalent) seemed to be the longest planned to date. Not sure I'd want to jump until I can get the ones I need. But it's good to see the direction things are heading, at least for what I do.

The 120 mm macro that is available and the 110 mm that is planned will offer an equivalent 35 mm field of view of 95 and 87 mm respectively and those figures are well into "traditional" portraiture lengths. Combine those and the wider lenses for landscapes etc and they are well on their way to covering the sort of usage that MF cameras get.

Definitely looks look a lust worthy bit of gear but most importantly will be software support for their raw files. I can't see anything out there about file format and a$obe have been extremely slow providing "proper" support of the Fuji RAF files, particularly the models with the x-trans sensors. I can't see Capture One reacting speedily to support files from a camera that threatens a few sales from their own product line.

If their prices as quoted are correct they are still going to be expensive here down under but maybe the cheapest way to get into that size camera.

[Hamster]

The 120 mm macro that is available and the 110 mm that is planned will offer an equivalent 35 mm field of view of 95 and 87 mm respectively and those figures are well into "traditional" portraiture lengths. Combine those and the wider lenses for landscapes etc and they are well on their way to covering the sort of usage that MF cameras get.

Definitely looks look a lust worthy bit of gear but most importantly will be software support for their raw files. I can't see anything out there about file format and a$obe have been extremely slow providing "proper" support of the Fuji RAF files, particularly the models with the x-trans sensors. I can't see Capture One reacting speedily to support files from a camera that threatens a few sales from their own product line.

If their prices as quoted are correct they are still going to be expensive here down under but maybe the cheapest way to get into that size camera.

I often us a 200 mm for landscapes taken from a spot I would call a large vista. It allows me to pick out interesting segments of the entire vista, but I take your point re the wider landscape lenses. Plus there's a bit more croppability with more pixels which can be used to get in closer. But I hate the thought of spending all that money on a nice big sensor and then throwing all those expensive pixels around the middle away.
200 mm is also useful for photographing small children, as they can run around at a distance and you can capture more candid shots. Maybe not so traditional for MF but certainly something I'd use it for, especially given it will basically move from the old behemoth of a MF camera to something that can be used in a more portably SLR type way.

It'll be interesting to see what Phase do with Capture One should MF cameras become more prevalent. For example, currently they don't support Pentax 645Z Raw, and it's not like the Pentax is a direct competitor to an XF system. So they may carry on with this (slightly churlish IMHO) approach, or just say, lets become a serious competitor to Adobe and service the needs of a wider range of MF cameras (but not Hasselblad :D)

[I @ M]

Plus there's a bit more croppability with more pixels which can be used to get in closer. But I hate the thought of spending all that money on a nice big sensor and then throwing all those expensive pixels around the middle away.

Totally agree, people spend extra $$ for the extra pickles and then discard a heap of them. Sort of like buying a hamburger with the lot and then binning the egg, pineapple, bacon and lettuce. :D

We will wait and see how the body behaves in the real world, somehow I don't think it will up to the job of chasing moving subjects but more aimed at tripod mounted duties.

[MissionMan]

Totally agree, people spend extra $$ for the extra pickles and then discard a heap of them. Sort of like buying a hamburger with the lot and then binning the egg, pineapple, bacon and lettuce. :D

We will wait and see how the body behaves in the real world, somehow I don't think it will up to the job of chasing moving subjects but more aimed at tripod mounted duties.

The initial reports are that the AF is on a par with the XT2 which should put it in D750 territory, but the I think the price will put it into niche territory, or perhaps aimed at the D5/1D buyers who have cash to spend and want mirrorless.

[Hamster]

The initial reports are that the AF is on a par with the XT2 which should put it in D750 territory, but the I think the price will put it into niche territory, or perhaps aimed at the D5/1D buyers who have cash to spend and want mirrorless.

The cost aspect is what has me looking at the Quattro Sd H (I started a thread to ask if anyone had one or opinions on). After all, if I can get 50Mp medium format quality for $2k, why spend $10k?

[MissionMan]

The cost aspect is what has me looking at the Quattro Sd H (I started a thread to ask if anyone had one or opinions on). After all, if I can get 50Mp medium format quality for $2k, why spend $10k?

The AF is apparently fairly average so it depends whether this is important

[Hamster]

The AF is apparently fairly average so it depends whether this is important

Not really, landscapes tend to move pretty slowly[emoji6].
And if I'm doing aerial photography I can just focus on infinity and tape the focus ring in place for the duration.

[MissionMan]

Not really, landscapes tend to move pretty slowly[emoji6].
And if I'm doing aerial photography I can just focus on infinity and tape the focus ring in place for the duration.

You say that now, but the landscape moves pretty quickly during a nuclear blast and people are predicting the end of the world with trump :D

[Hamster]

You say that now, but the landscape moves pretty quickly during a nuclear blast and people are predicting the end of the world with trump :D

Well, at least adequate light won't be an issue :D

[arthurking83]

Well, at least adequate light won't be an issue :D

Just watch the dynamic range! :p
A 20 stop grad filter, or two, or bracketed exposures could be a workaround tho!

[Hamster]

I had a play with one of these yesterday and really liked it. When I first picked it up it felt very comfortable in my hand (nicer than my 5d III), and once I'd worked out where the ISO, aperture and shutter speed control (i.e. the important stuff) were it was a simple process to take shots. I was worried that you couldn't have an RGB histogram displayed on the live view screen as I couldn't work out how to do it. But it's so obviously necessary that I checked on the Fuji website and found a shot where the histogram was displayed, to set my fears at rest. I wanted to try this because I noticed that the average histogram seemed to show no blown highlights, then I'd take a shot and on viewing the picture it would warn me there were blown highlights and the histogram associated with it would confirm this. I know screens and jpegs can't be relied on, hence my wish to use an RGB histogram.
Focus seemed pretty fast, but I didn't take enough care to pick a particular spot each time to check accuracy.
I didn't think Adobe LR had caught up with Fuji raw files and the import "non compatible" message seemed to confirm this. But this morning I thought I read somewhere that LR should read them, so I may need to update my version. If I can process the raw files I can have another look at those blown areas and see if they really are without detail.

The jpegs looked very nice and sharp, I guess you could use the Fuji description of "super fine". I compared them to Sigma SD H files which have been touted as incredibly good (and they are) and I think the Fuji is better. However, I'm no pixel peeper and for the price difference between the Sigma and the Fuji, if you kept the ISO at 100 and used them for landscapes I'm not sure it's worth getting the Fuji over the Sigma. But as soon as the ISO goes up the Sigma is left far behind. So in my book the Fuji is more versatile.
The EVF is much better on the Fuji (the Sigma one is yukky)

This wasn't supposed to be a comparison with the Sigma, but I played with one at the weekend and it's something I'm considering. However, I think if I got a Sigma it would be great for landscapes and aerials, but I'd need to keep the Canon for situations where the ISO had to go up. With the Fuji I could sell off all my Canon gear to offset the higher cost, since the Fuji would be more of an all rounder.

This wasn't supposed to be a comprehensive review, just a few things I care about linked to a 30 minute play I had last night. I need to look at Raw files, play with the other lenses (I used the 62 mm), check focus accuracy, so another play will happen some time in the future.


Fuji used to have (I think they still have them? :confused013) medium format film system.

Would be good if they had an adapter available for the old lenses to suit the shorter backfocus distance of this new format.

Re this, yes, the GX645AF system, which was also the Hasselblad H. The GX645 died I believe, but the Hassy continued through a few iterations to digital. There is an adapter available (for $700 odd :scared:) so the Super ebc fujinon lenses with HC mount can be used. All electronic functions except AF work I think.

[Hamster]

As a bit of an update, I also had a play with the Hasselblad X1D.

I couldn't find what I wanted nearly as quickly in the menu driven format. That's OK, I'd work it out after I RTFM'd
Images, check. Nice. Fuji and Hassy just as good as each other.

The big problem for me was the way it handled. First, let me say it looks pretty, much more modern and more of a design statement than the Fuji. I like it's style, but it just didn't feel nice in my hands. It was too small for my hands and my right hand and index finger quickly began to ache as I used the wheel at the front to scroll through things. I had to contort my hand too much to operate the buttons, so that rules it out for me.

[MissionMan]

As a bit of an update, I also had a play with the Hasselblad X1D.

I couldn't find what I wanted nearly as quickly in the menu driven format. That's OK, I'd work it out after I RTFM'd
Images, check. Nice. Fuji and Hassy just as good as each other.

The big problem for me was the way it handled. First, let me say it looks pretty, much more modern and more of a design statement than the Fuji. I like it's style, but it just didn't feel nice in my hands. It was too small for my hands and my right hand and index finger quickly began to ache as I used the wheel at the front to scroll through things. I had to contort my hand too much to operate the buttons, so that rules it out for me.

I was hoping to have a play around with the GFX at the Fuji session last night, but I did my ankle in earlier in the week which screwed that up.

[Hamster]

I was hoping to have a play around with the GFX at the Fuji session last night, but I did my ankle in earlier in the week which screwed that up.

Bummer. I hope it heals up soon.

[dolina]

I'm resurrecting this thread to provide an update.

To frame the FujiFILM G system we need to look at the other players...

Leica S medium format system started in 2008.

- $20k for the single 2020 Leica S3 body (https://leica-camera.com/en-int/Company/Press-Centre/Press-Releases/2020/Press-Release-Leica-S3-Leica-Camera-delivers-the-latest-model-of-the-Leica-S-medium-format-system-to-retailers)
- $5k-12.5k price range for 16 lenses with the last lens, Leica Summicron-S 100 mm f/2 ASPH (https://leica-camera.com/en-US/Company/Press-Centre/Press-Releases/2014/Press-Release-New-Leica-Summicron-S-100-mm-f-2-ASPH.-fast-portrait-lens) being released in 2014

FujiFILM G system started in 2017 & has these price points

- $3.5-10k for 3 body SKUs with the last body, Fujifilm GFX 50S II (https://www.dpreview.com/products/fujifilm/slrs/fujifilm_gfx50sii) being released 53 weeks ago
- $1k-3.3k price range for 15 lenses with the last two lenses (https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/fujifilm-to-launch-two-tilt-shift-lenses-for-its-gfx-medium-format-cameras), being released later this year

FujiFILM G medium format system's value proposition is as follows

- medium format hardware
- in a dSLR form factor
- at a dSLR physical dimension & weight
- R3 & R5 price points
- RF L lens price range

This is more damaging to current Canon, Sony & Nikon customers than those of Leica, Hassleblad or any other medium format brand.

APS-C & smaller image sensors are losing ground to smartphones so brands are moving to full frame.

Pentax failed in their executions probably due to resource reasons as they did not go further beyond the 2014 Pentax 645Z (https://www.dpreview.com/products/pentax/slrs/pentax_645z) & 2015 HD Pentax-D FA645 35mm F3.5 AL [IF] (https://www.dpreview.com/products/pentax/lenses/pentax_hd_fa645_35_3p5_al). I've read an article that they had problems fulfilling demand for the $8.5k body (https://www.dpreview.com/articles/5406066786/ricoh-announces-medium-format-pentax-645z) that now retails at $5k. I remember feeling surprised by it being the cheapest medium format body at the time.

New lowest price (https://petapixel.com/2021/09/02/fujifilm-launches-the-gfx50s-ii-medium-format-mirrorless-camera/) is $3.5k 2021 FujiFILM GFX 50S II body-only during the summer promo price.

Yesterday's Lazada PH promo price was $3,811.78 12% VAT inc for the body + kit lens. That's the price of a US $3.9k 2020 EOS R5 body-only without sales tax. Bought separately the kit lens is $1k. This brings down the body price down to $2,811.78 12% VAT inc. VAT ex price would have been $2,510.52 that is 2020 EOS R6 body-only US pricing without sales tax.

The $10k 2019 (https://www.dpreview.com/search/?query=gfx%20100&product=fujifilm_gfx100)Fujifilm GFX 100 (https://www.dpreview.com/products/fujifilm/slrs/fujifilm_gfx100) is the oldest SKU with its successor, the 2021 Fujifilm GFX 100S (https://www.dpreview.com/products/fujifilm/slrs/fujifilm_gfx100s) costing $6k. It has the same 100+ megapixel 0.79x crop image sensor.

Many are complaining about Canon defending its RF system from 3rd party reverse engineering 4 years into their transition.

If I was making that transition to MILC then FujiFILM looks very interesting from a value proposition.

Its weakness for my use case would be its lack of autofocus designed for birds, wildlife or sports.

In 2015 the cheapest way to get native 50+ megapixel was the $3.9k EOS 5Ds R. That was a big deal to many professionals whose clients contractually require 50+ megapixel files.

[dolina]

An indicator of them going after current Canon, Sony & Nikon customers would be FujiFILM's marketing tagline is "More than Full Frame (https://www.fujifilm.com/us/en/news/digital-cameras/fujifilm-announces-new-fujifilm-GFX100S-camera)". If you're a medium format user prior to 2017 the tagline is something to shrug over. But if you're a long time full frame or smaller user then its a big deal.

[dolina]

In future I would not be surprised that FujiFILM GFX medium format bodies will hit these price points occupied by full frame bodies

$4k

- 2016 Canon EOS-1D X Mark II (https://www.dpreview.com/products/canon/slrs/canon_eos1dxii)
- 2021 Fujifilm GFX 50S II (https://www.dpreview.com/products/fujifilm/slrs/fujifilm_gfx50sii) ($3.5k summer promo price)

$3.9k

- 2020 Canon EOS R5 (https://www.dpreview.com/products/canon/slrs/canon_eosr5)

$3.7k

- 2019 Panasonic Lumix DC-S1R (https://www.dpreview.com/products/panasonic/slrs/panasonic_dcs1r)

$3.5k

- 2019 Panasonic Lumix DC-S1H (https://www.dpreview.com/products/panasonic/slrs/panasonic_dcs1h)
- 2020 Sony a7S III (https://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/slrs/sony_a7siii)

$3k

- 2020 Nikon Z7 II (https://www.dpreview.com/products/nikon/slrs/nikon_z7ii)
- 2021 Sony a7R IVA (https://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/slrs/sony_a7riva)

$2.5k

- 2019 Panasonic Lumix DC-S1 (https://www.dpreview.com/products/panasonic/slrs/panasonic_dcs1)
- 2020 Canon EOS R6 (https://www.dpreview.com/products/canon/slrs/canon_eosr6)
- 2021 Sony a7 IV (https://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/slrs/sony_a7iv)
- 2022 Fujifilm X-H2S (https://www.dpreview.com/products/fujifilm/slrs/fujifilm_xh2s) (Highest-end X-mount body & may serve as the bottom price for GFX bodies)

$1.5k

- 2015 Canon EOS 5DS R (https://www.dpreview.com/products/canon/slrs/canon_eos5dsr) (Cheapest 50+ megapixel body was $3.9k in 2015)

Going after Phase One, Hassleblad & Leica medium format customers are secondary concern as the core medium format market is roughly 6000 units per year (https://www.forbes.com/sites/marcbabej/2013/05/08/how-leica-camera-is-reinventing-the-medium-format-market-on-its-own-terms/?sh=a16ec9446da3) – worldwide, for all pre-2013 brands. It's that small because typical medium format bodies goes for more than $10k & lenses more than $3.3k

To frame the FujiFILM G system we need to look at the other players...

Leica S medium format system started in 2008.

- $20k for the single 2020 Leica S3 body (https://leica-camera.com/en-int/Company/Press-Centre/Press-Releases/2020/Press-Release-Leica-S3-Leica-Camera-delivers-the-latest-model-of-the-Leica-S-medium-format-system-to-retailers)
- $5k-12.5k price range for 16 lenses with the last lens, Leica Summicron-S 100 mm f/2 ASPH (https://leica-camera.com/en-US/Company/Press-Centre/Press-Releases/2014/Press-Release-New-Leica-Summicron-S-100-mm-f-2-ASPH.-fast-portrait-lens) being released in 2014

FujiFILM G system started in 2017 & has these price points

- $3.5-10k for 3 body SKUs with the last body, Fujifilm GFX 50S II (https://www.dpreview.com/products/fujifilm/slrs/fujifilm_gfx50sii) being released 53 weeks ago
- $1k-3.3k price range for 15 lenses with the last two lenses (https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/fujifilm-to-launch-two-tilt-shift-lenses-for-its-gfx-medium-format-cameras), being released later this year

FujiFILM G medium format systems value proposition is as follows

- medium format hardware
- in a dSLR form factor
- at a dSLR physical dimension & weight
- R3 & R5 price points
- RF L lens price range

This is more damaging to current Canon, Sony & Nikon customers than those of Leica, Hassleblad or any other medium format brand.

An indicator of this would be FujiFILMs marketing tagline is More than Full Frame (https://www.fujifilm.com/us/en/news/digital-cameras/fujifilm-announces-new-fujifilm-GFX100S-camera). If you're a medium format user prior to 2017 the tagline is something to shrug over. But if you're a long time full frame or smaller user then its a big deal.

APS-C & smaller image sensors are losing ground to smartphones so brands are moving to full frame.

Pentax failed in their executions probably due to resource reasons as they did not go further beyond the 2014 Pentax 645Z (https://www.dpreview.com/products/pentax/slrs/pentax_645z) & 2015 HD Pentax-D FA645 35mm F3.5 AL [IF] (https://www.dpreview.com/products/pentax/lenses/pentax_hd_fa645_35_3p5_al). Ive read an article that they had problems fulfilling demand for the $8.5k body (https://www.dpreview.com/articles/5406066786/ricoh-announces-medium-format-pentax-645z) that now retails at $5k. I remember feeling surprised by it being the cheapest medium format body at the time.

New lowest price (https://petapixel.com/2021/09/02/fujifilm-launches-the-gfx50s-ii-medium-format-mirrorless-camera/) is $3.5k 2021 FujiFILM GFX 50S II body-only during the summer promo price.

The $10k 2019 (https://www.dpreview.com/search/?query=gfx%20100&product=fujifilm_gfx100)Fujifilm GFX 100 (https://www.dpreview.com/products/fujifilm/slrs/fujifilm_gfx100) is the oldest SKU with its successor, the 2021 Fujifilm GFX 100S (https://www.dpreview.com/products/fujifilm/slrs/fujifilm_gfx100s) costing $6k. It has the same 100+ megapixel 0.79x crop image sensor.

Many are complaining about Canon defending its RF system from 3rd party reverse engineering 4 years into their transition.

If I was making that transition to MILC then FujiFILM looks very interesting from a value proposition.

Its weakness for my use case would be its lack of autofocus designed for birds, wildlife or sports.

In 2015 the cheapest way to get native 50+ megapixel was the $3.9k EOS 5Ds R. That was a big deal to many professionals whose clients contractually require 50+ megapixel files.

[dolina]

Sales of

- >$10k medium format cameras from Phase One, Hassleblad, Leica, etc
- $6-7k double grip full frame flagship cameras like the Canon 1-Series & 3-Series and Nikon D6 & Z9
- $3-4k single grip full frame professional cameras like Canon 5-Series
- $2.5k prosumer full frame bodies like the Canon 6-Series

And other cameras with APS-C and larger image sensors ~$1k or more are largely unscathed by iPhones and Androids.

Below are CIPA's annual worldwide global shipment # of all digital still cameras.

I am displaying key years

- 1999 & 2000: 1st time they released global shipping # for all digital still cameras. In terms of units shipped they reflect 2021 actual shipments and 2022 forecasted shipments
- 2003: 1st time they broke down # of how many Total SLR vs point & shoots
- 2021 & 2022: Last two years with even more break downs of SLR vs point & shoots vs Mirorless





Year
1999 Kodak DC20 ('https://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d_1999.pdf')
2000
2003 Canon EOS 10D
2021 ('https://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-2021_e.pdf')
2022 forecast ('https://www.photopia-hamburg.com/en/news-details-1/article/cipa-prognose-kameramarkt-2022')


Total Cameras
5,088,207
10,342,084
43,407,956
8,361,521
7,850,000


Point & Shoot
-
-
42,562,628
3,013,250
2,560,000


Total SLR & Mirrorless
-
-
845,328
5,348,271
5,290,000


SLR
-
-
845,328
2,241,772
-


Mirrorless
-
-
-
3,106,499
-


% of Point & Shoots
-
-
98.05%
36.04%
32.61%


% of SLR & Mirrorless
-
-
1.95%
63.96%
67.39%


Worldwide population ('https://datacommons.org/place/Earth?utm_medium=explore&mprop=count&popt=Person&hl=en#')
6.034 billion
6.114 billion
6.194 billion
7.9 billion
8 billion ('https://reliefweb.int/report/world/world-population-reach-8-billion-15-november-2022-enarzh')


% of worldwide population relative to cameras shipped that year
0.0843%
0.1692%
0.7008%
0.1058%
0.0981%




In terms of units shipped we are between year 1999 & 2000 but in terms of value of units shipped it is mostly SLR & Mirrorless bodies.

As Canon & Nikon are transitioning out of dSLRs then the future should be based on mirrorless bodies selling for ~$1k or more.