Very disturbing article in the SMH today

[Cage]

I'm not going to comment, other than to say that I was aghast when I read it.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/muslim-children-should-not-be-forced-to-sing-national-anthem-says-hizb-uttahrir-20151101-gknwy9.html

[Kym]

This is a very emotive off-topic subject, please be very careful in what you post

[Cage]

Cheers Kym,

I didn't intend to start a discussion, merely to create an awareness.

[Kym]

My view is that the problem is the islamic ideology and requires two things for genuine peaceful integration

a) an islamic reformation http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/ayaan-hirsi-ali---heretic-why-islam-needs/6426788

b) a very active stand for human rights by moderate muslims i.e. ...

121168

Sadly neither are likely in the next 100 years; thus things will get MUCH more ugly and violent.

My wife cousin lives in a small town in Germany, we talk weekly.
The immigrant situation is having a huge local impact and there will be an extreme anti-islam reaction that will manfest hugely in the next 24 months.

[ameerat42]

A report of a few words from a group with unorthodox views. It depends on the traction it can garner, what fear and dissension
it sows. This may not be much.

There are many groups with socially unorthodox views. To me they are equally repellent for their avowed lack of broad-mindedness.

In addition, many self-styled moderate governments in the world enact laws which should have no go at all.

One could continue recounting a panoply of woes, but...

(And, are you scared of spiders and snakes?)

[Cage]

I may be somewhat naive in my thinking, but I would hope that when people come to this country, either legitimately or not, they would have some intent to become members of our community, and to embrace the Australian way of life.

To state that their children should not have to sing the Australian anthem, for whatever reason, does not bode well for their desire to assimilate into our society.

[ameerat42]

Nothing to do with any "naivity" I reckon. You always get someone who doesn't like something.
(For instance, I can't stand coriander:eek:)

This story, after all, is of "storm in a teacup" proportions. It was the same yesterday and will be the same tomorrow.
It was just reported today. I heard a worse one: they're talking of raising the GST to 15%:eek::eek::eek:

[Tannin]

So people who despise the disgraceful worst-in-world dirge some moron picked to be our national anthem, and who refuse point-blank to stand for it, sing it, or respect it in any way are Muslims. I never knew that. I always thought I was an atheist. Learn something every day.

PS: Born in Australia, been here since a great-something grandfather was transported to Tasmania. Love the place, always have. Travel endlessly to see more of it. And I am far too proud of this country and its history to ever sing that awful song. If we can't have a decent one, better to do without.

[Mark L]

Have never sung the national anthem since way back in the old school days when I was forced to. Singing that song doesn't make my an Ozzie.
Is this the part of the article you found disturbing,
"In July, it became public knowledge a three-year-old was on Britain's terrorism radar."
Go figure.:confused013

[Kym]

they're talking of raising the GST to 15%:eek::eek::eek:
http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/better-tax-mix-for-jobs-growth-morrison/story-e6frfku9-1227589934195

TREASURER Scott Morrison has described reports that the government is considering a hike in the GST as "speculative" but economists and tax practitioners say it's an idea worth pursuing.

[Cage]

So people who despise the disgraceful worst-in-world dirge some moron picked to be our national anthem, and who refuse point-blank to stand for it, sing it, or respect it in any way are Muslims. I never knew that. I always thought I was an atheist. Learn something every day.

Here's today's lesson ....


The 1977 plebiscite

Another poll to select a tune for a national song was conducted in May 1977. Fuelled by debate in 1976 over an appropriate song to represent Australia at the Montreal Olympic Games, the Fraser government requested the Australian Electoral Office hold a direct national poll in conjunction with a set of constitutional referenda. Over 7 million of the 8.4 million people on the electoral roll chose to vote. Again, Advance Australia Fair was the preferred song, followed by Waltzing Matilda, God Save the Queen and Song of Australia.

Even after the plebiscite, a further seven years and a change of government passed before Advance Australia Fair was proclaimed as Australia's national anthem

Unless I'm reading this wrongly, our anthem was chosen by the people.

[Tannin]

Your anthem maybe. I will never stoop to standing up for that awful dirge. If there is a worse excuse for a national anthem somewhere in the world, I haven't heard it yet. (But I bet there is - the French one in magnificent; from there it's all downhill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K1q9Ntcr5g

Or you may prefer this version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM-E2H1ChJM

[Cage]

Have never sung the national anthem since way back in the old school days when I was forced to. Singing that song doesn't make my an Ozzie.

And refusing to sing it because it doesn't fit in with their ideological values and religious beliefs sure as hell won't make them Aussies either. If they don't like the Australian ideology they could always go back to whence they came, and I concur that most escaped from some pretty horrific situations.

Surely there has to be more of an attempt to embrace the culture and way of life of a country that has offered asylum, and not try to force Australia to adopt the beliefs of a culture that they have fled from.

- - - Updated - - -


Your anthem maybe. I will never stoop to standing up for that awful dirge. If there is a worse excuse for a national anthem somewhere in the world, I haven't heard it yet. (But I bet there is - the French one in magnificent; from there it's all downhill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K1q9Ntcr5g

Or you may prefer this version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM-E2H1ChJM

Tannin, Mate, it is your anthem too, love it or hate it.

Ain't democracy wonderful ? You can express disdain for our national song and not get locked up.

[Warbler]

Standing for the National Anthem is not about respecting the tune. It's is about respecting your fellow countrymen.

[ameerat42]

Succinct, Warbs.:th3:

[Granville]

Same as the Australian Flag. Some like it some don't, but it's our flag.

[jim]

Though I'm a New Zealander and always will be, I sing the Australian anthem where appropriate because not to do so would be a very weird and hostile stance to take against the country where I've lived for 28 years. Anyway, awful song though it is it's nothing like as tedious as our national dirge.

Having said that I'm not sure what you achieve by forcing people to sing it if they don't want to.

[Hawthy]

The NZ anthem is actually one of my favourites. Quite moving and the two languages adds to its appeal. Now, if we can just get rid of the haka...
Warbler has it right. It is about respect. And respect is a gift that gives as much to the giver as the receiver. The world could do with a bit more respect.

[Lance B]

"In July, it became public knowledge a three-year-old was on Britain's terrorism radar."
Go figure.:confused013

I think the issue here isn't that the British Authorities would ever think a 3 year old will be a terrorist at that age, but that this 3 year old is in a situation where he/she is under the influence of brain washing by extremist Muslim leaders and may end up as a terrorist. I do not find that to be surprising that the extremist Muslims would groom a child for future terrorist activities and thus mean that the authorities would need to keep a waych on him/her.

[arthurking83]

My view is that the problem isn't about being Australian, or a migrant .. recent or distant.

My actual hope one day is that someone somewhere will stop this idiotic regional nonsense and change the public dialogue to where it should be .. on a global scale.

I'm Aussie, and I just happen to live in this part of the world, yet I could have just as easily been a Zimbabwean living 18,000 klms away.

I still live on the same planet and just because circumstances lead to my being here, makes no difference in the overall scheme of things.

National anthems do nothing for healing animosities between people that live in different regions .. and I reckon they should all be banned .. even the magnificent Gallic ones!

We can't live in harmony on this rock in the middle of nowhere, in a part of no mans land (in galactic terms), and yet there's this mad rush to discover new distant planets in places that we can't even see, let along get too.
And for what ... to argue and ridicule some other species of life form? .. to go to war with them too?
it's so funny sit back and watch it all .. here we are all basically trying to kill each other's race off in some way, whether literally or surreptitiously through a fixation of integration, yet on the other hand billions spent trying to look for more targets in places we can't reach.

My parents were post war immigrants, which makes me a second gen immigrant. One thing I know (from direct first hand experience) is that when something is forced onto you, your reaction is to rebel.
My parents had their customs, and cultural heritage, which has long since faded to a very high degree.
None of my second gen immigrant family/friends/acquaintances have followed in their parent's footsteps and maintained those cultural heritage traits.
Now the third gen migrant's offspring(eg. my kids) have completely lost touch with any of those original cultural nuances .. and the fact that 'olives and fetta cheese' as a Greek thing is lost on them. They just know that it exists and eat it by the tons loads .. not that if it weren't for the old timer Greeks .. Aussies wouldn't know what those terms meant.
They have no interest in the cultural links and history .. all they want is for it to exist. They don't care on how Olives are made(to be edible .. unless you want to get sick quickly).
Their lack of interest in the stories I've told them, about entire weekends spent picking olives and then cutting them and drowning them in some salty water goop .. ask them where olives come from and they know it's the shop!
Same with church(the real cultural heritage dissapearing very fast!).
They had their first ever experience in a Greek church a couple of weeks ago, my mother passed away. 15 years without ever setting foot in a church! they were actually less bored than I was too(embarrassingly).
Once my father goes, they won't ever experience a Greek church ever again, and what was very obvious on that day was the lack of any young children at the church.
They had a couple of cousins to play with(which relieved their boredom a bit) .. but the old days of all of us kids being there at the same time .. gone!
Because back in the day, the first gen migrants all followed their culture and went to church. This situation slowly declined over the years and they only went to church on certain days(eg. Easter), then they got too old for that too .. and then 30-40 year later .. what was once a 'culture' was now only something to describe in stories.

The real Aussie is the one that still goes to church on Sunday .. just as they did up to about the 40's, 50's or 60's .. how many do that now? .. and more so how many do that in the icon of Aussidom .. the good old ute! .. wasn't that what it was invented for?

So in the same way that I've been affected by cultural indifference, the same effect will eventually come to the recent load of migrants(and that includes these anthem avoiding muslims) .. at some point the older first gen migrants will have forced their cultural ways onto their children to the point that those second gen will rebel against it. More so to a large degree, rather than completely.
But their offspring will almost certainly not have any interest in the old cultural ways ... eventually.
They don't need to be assimilated, they will blend in at their own pace and things will eventually settle and the path will smooth itself out.

I'm like Tony .. anthem agnostic .. the only word I know in that song is Australians .. and then I can't make out if it's supposed to be .... all let us read Joyce ... who's Joyce, did she write a good book(good enough to read so as to be sung about?).
Dunno .. doesn't make sense why you'd sing songs about reading books.
Actually, maybe Joyce is the surname .. only just clicked! :Doh:

Anyhow .. priorities are all wrong .. we need to stop this incessant us and them ideology, and look at the issue from an us .... ALL of us perspective.
Until then many more lives will be wasted due to regional selfishness.

[Steve Axford]

I actually read all of that, Arthur. Sounds reasonable to me.

[Cage]

Very well put Artie.

And thank goodness for the influx of European migrants in the '40s/'50s/'60s. For starters they taught Aussies that there was more to the evening meal than meat and three veg. They brought their customs and culture with them, and some have been adopted by the general populace. They also brought their faith and religious beliefs with them, however, as you alluded to, those beliefs are being eroded with each succeeding generation.

Education is enabling people to question handed down beliefs, and make up their own minds about 'where did we come from'. Religious indoctrination from a very young age will also lose it's influence over time, as has been the case with Protestantism and Catholicism.

I believe that the average Aussie is non-racist and judges a person by what they are, and not who they are, or where they came from. I also believe that most want the new arrivals to become one of 'us' and not be isolationist with their own schools and burqa mentality. Walk into a bank with a full face motorbike helmet on and see how you go.

It seems to be the testosterone overloaded young men who are embracing the radical policies. This happens in most cultures, although it very seldom goes as far as terrorism and the killing of innocents.

And yes, you are right, they will "be assimilated, they will blend in at their own pace and things will eventually settle and the path will smooth itself out."

My fervent wish is that there will be no more senseless killing during the assimilation process.

[thegrump]

I am a 7th generation Australian and I still believe I am English. My best friend in school in the 60's was an Italian. Australia is known for being racist (bullshit). The European influx was a god sent, as proven by time, most have integrated 100%. but I am not saying they should forget their roots. The new influx will never integrate, and in fact are not allowed to, by their own law. Yes they have their own laws and do not respect our laws. Why is it that most of the influx are male, while most of the refugees back home are female. Why is it that a head Muslim leader has just stated, that it is OK to kill non-believers. Why is it that the main stream media do not report the atrocities in the East. I could go on and on and by the end I most likely will be banned from this site, so I will stop here.

[Steve Axford]

Come on Grump. What you say just isn't true. I remember when Italians were viewed the same way (after all, they were the enemy during WW2). It doesn't help to repeat urban myths as if they were facts.

[Crysis]

What a very interesting read from the start to the end of this.
Many saying the same sort of thing and some with different stories to.
I am not to sure on if they will try to become as this is going more Australian. But I am sure of this.
There is good and bad in all races that decide to park their bums here. So do we treat the good one like the bad ones.
Its up to you to work out just who is who.

I also agree that many Australians are not racist at all. As I know as a kid I knocked about with quite a lot of Aboriginal kids.
And this is having sleep overs. I have done the same with the Greeks and Italians.
But here is a thing that I have notice especially where I am now.

We have got many Italians and Greeks here who how come over here many years ago.
And I am now 56 and these have been here longer than I have been alive.
Yet some of these oldies still only know how to say yes and no. Have they tried to become more Australian the others.
I would have to say no, because they expect you to know what they are grunting at.
As my wife told me from working at Woolworth's. She even told me that a lot of the new Iranians are very much disrespectful of women.
So lets not start saying that this is a one race thing. Let look at it on a person or family by family thing.
There will always be some who will come here and talk crap but couldn't do the same if they were still where they came from.

Do I like these new ones coming into the country? Not real sure as if they look at me like a piece of crap I will give them the same look.
I find that some are good people, but I will not tar them with the same brush.
But the ones I will tar with the same brush are the telemarketers who are calling to rip you off.
Now lets work on getting those lowlifes out in the open and start to treat people how you would like to be treated.

And on one point I do own a ute as I just got another one after a long wait, but I be buggered if I will go to church.
The church is a place where so much crap comes from in the first place. So I disagree with that point someone made.

There is another point to be made also, over time I have been sent some so called funny emails from people.
And when you open them they are some of the most racist things that you will see.
I will open it and work out quite quickly what it is about and delete it right away and make sure that it has not got an extra life from me if I sent it on.
What I have seen which some think is funny is straight out racist to the full degree. So this is another form of what this is all about, which needs to be stopped also.

[ameerat42]

Yeah, Crysis. I reckon the people with a superiority complex are certainly the inferior ones.
Yer gettem everywhere, and they come from everywhere.
Oh, can I add advertisers to your telemarketers? Ta.
(How about people who want to raise the GST? Oh, you're too kind.:D)

[wayn0i]

And what about those daylight saving voters, West coast eagle supporters and Canon users!!!! Give me strength....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cage]

After much soul searching I've decided that if mainstream Oz, and probably most of the Western world, goes pear shaped, which my gut tells me it's going to, I'm going to apply to migrate to Yidindji.

I'll not take any 'baggage' with me, I'm prepared to become fluent in the local language, and make a commitment to embrace their culture and beliefs.

To those of you not familiar with the Yidindji nation, they have been caring for, and nurturing their 'country' for about 40,000 years. Australians, on the other hand, in particular those who arrived post 1788, have managed to rape, pillage and burn their 'homeland' in the short space of 227 years.

OK, I'm coming out of the closet here (no, not that one). I have no desire to associate with people who treat their womenfolk as chattels and deny them an education, who believe that those that don't follow their particular brand of religious mumbo jumbo are unworthy, second class citizens, and want to impose their will and beliefs on everyone else. Religion is a 'club' that is long overdue for disbanding. Quite frankly, I'm over it !!!!

Where is Yidindji ? http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/murrumu-walubara-yidindji-renounces-citizenship-to-reclaim-australia-20151102-gkok6g.html

See ya up there.

[Steve Axford]

Ah, but will the Yidindji people accept you, Cage. I find that it can take some considerable time to understand the culture and gain the trust of our indigenous brothers. I think our Muslim brothers are demonstrating just that at present. Perhaps you should have a backup plan - just in case.

[Cage]

Ah, but will the Yidindji people accept you, Cage. I find that it can take some considerable time to understand the culture and gain the trust of our indigenous brothers. I think our Muslim brothers are demonstrating just that at present. Perhaps you should have a backup plan - just in case.

Geez, I hope so Steve.

My back-up plan is somewhere near Nimbin.

[Steve Axford]

Lots of indigenous people up here, so maybe that would work. Nimbin has its own peculiarities of course. But maybe that would help you to forget, or at least not care. It works for them. Well, maybe it doesn't.

[arthurking83]

..... Religion is a 'club' that is long overdue for disbanding. Quite frankly, I'm over it !!!!

Where is Yidindji ? ....

See ya up there.

:th3: ... I'll probably see 'ya up there too.

The worst thing our folks(first gens) did for us, in the sense of them wanting 'us' (second gens) .. was to strongly urge us to continue on with school(rather than say follow in their business footsteps or whatever) .. and in going so I got an education.

Now .. unless our currently understanding of history is completely distorted, this religion that they so fervently held onto as 'their culture' .. committed the exact same atrocities as the current bunch of (well known)morons are now doing with their religious beliefs.
Heads removed, very personal BBQ's with special guest appearances by the great non believer etc ... rampant quests to remove those same non believer types in far flung corners of the world .. etc, etc.
What's changed?
Islam appears to have become Christianity .... 500 years later!
I don't think it's too far fetched to believe that 500 years ago there were the true believers in Christianity, the one's that simply spread the word and just believed in the faith for themselves.
But history remembers the lunatic fringe and mentally unbalanced egomaniacs for the inhumanity they were allowed to serve for so long.
So again, what's changed? .. from what I see .. only the name of the lunatic fringe's party!

Up until high school, I was like every other second gen migrant .. we were ridiculed at school .. the big bad 'W' word and so on and so forth.
Why, because we ate olives and fetta(probably) .. who knows(actually who cares) .. but those same losers all probably eat olives and fetta cheese now(but probably only on their pizzas! :p)
In high school with the stigma of being a non Aussie still apparent, my choice to refrain(basically rebel) against my folks culture was based solely on my new historical enlightenment .. nothing to do with the occasional taunts of not being truly Aussie.

As for the Islamic faith, I know many muslim people(worked with up until only very recently), and all were great people. I don't believe in it, and have had many heated debates over the point of religion(not one particular religion!) with them too.
Of the 5 muslim workmates I recently knew, 4 were first gen migrants(only in the last 10 years or so) and one was a baby when his parents migrated here(so basically is a second gen).
He and one of the other(first gens) .. believe in the faith, but only in name(as a front) .. the other 3 are more or less faithful.
But I firmly believe that all the kids of those first gens(ie. the second gen muslims) in the years to come will dilute their belief in the faith to a degree. And in 20 or so years time, their kids(the about to come 3rd gens) will have basically completely forgotten it too.

Religions are going to slowly die out. It'll take a few years, and if they don't all kill themselves first ... remember all this ISIS crap we read about every day is probably worse in the sense that they're fighting each other more so than 'us' infidels!
Christianity will probably only be a word that someone remember was supposed to describe something so long ago .. but no one will know exactly what.

It may take a generation of three, but the only religious dilemma remaining in the years to come will be ... Android vs iOS(and hopefully they won't turn to violence in 500 years time! :D)

[Cage]

Succinctly put Arthur.

I wonder if there is any way we can fast forward the transformation ?

[thegrump]

I will add one more thing, which is the basis of my trustworthiness. A few years back, I used to ride my pushbike to work and back. The trip home was a distance of 42km, so I was not dawdling. One day while tearing along a bike path along side the Merri Creek in Coburg, what did I see coming my way. Father and son taking up the head, 4 females coming up the rear covered head to foot. As I approached the son stepped aside to let me through. The father grabbed him and placed him back beside him. Now I had a split second choice, run the kid over, which would had dislodged me from the bike and well have been beaten to death before I was conscious, or leave the track and be impaled by a tree. I choose the second. I did come a cropper in the bush, but un impaled. When I got to my feet and looked at where I had come from, there was Father, son and the 4 females, walking off as if nothing had happened. I could have been badly injured or worse, did they care, NO. In fact I think they wanted me hurt. This act told me, the Father was telling his son "he is not one of us, so he does not matter". Now you are going to say, but that was just one. OK, so next time, do I trust them to step aside for me. NO. It will not happen.

[Hawthy]

Arthur...interesting. I always imagined you with an English background. Now I find out that you are Greek? Well, I suppose the Greeks do like to talk...

Being of a similar vintage, I remember the waves of refugees - Greeks and Italians arrived before I was born but I remember them and their kids being called names. I remember the Vietnamese boat people and the horrible names I called them.

I attended a Catholic school and in the late sixties we had to walk home past a State School and the boys there threw rocks at us and chanted, "Cattle Ticks! Dirty Micks!".

These days, a Catholic marrying a Protestant barely raises an eyebrow. The Vietnamese are seen as model citizens. Greeks and Italians are so mainstream they are (almost) boring. Australian food and restaurant culture are major beneficiaries of all of the different cultures that have arrived. One day...soon...everyone will have the same thoughts about middle-Eastern migrants. I work with plenty of Muslims and they are all fine people.

Sure, there is a very small, very vocal minority of Muslims who feel aggrieved and express their grievances inappropriately. They actually need to be listened to and be assured that they are welcome here. Telling them to love the Australian Flag or go back to where they came from is a very short-sighted position.

These people are here and they are not leaving. The more people are marginalised, the more they resist assimilating. Embrace them. Please.

[Brian500au]

What a classic case of the kettle calling the pot black. So we are proud to call ourselves Australian. We are more Australian because our highest claim to fame is we won a swimming race nine months before we were born. Most of us have never defended Australia in any way, paid the minimum amount of tax legally sanctioned upon us and only follow the law because we don't want to pay fines. It is only by luck you have the right to call yourself an Australian - not sure if you are going to have the same amount of luck next time around.


We seem to forget we invaded this great country of ours. Yes before we "moved" over here (does that makes us all immigrants) there were Australians living in this country, and probably given they were here for thousands of years before your ancestors come over, are more Australian than you claim to be.


Now I don't really remember us Australians taking on the Indigenous culture nor fitting into their way of living with our hosts. If I read my history correctly us new Australians did not like the existing Australian laws and cultures so we shot the buggers. Of course history is a little shy on the exact details - don't want to degenerate us Australians do we. We bought with us disease, new better laws, our own version of religion and a better education system. Oh we also brought with us the dregs of society which we let loose on the local population after inhumanely treating them for seven or fourteen years. We did not bother to learn the language and I am sure we never learnt the words to the existing Australian National Anthem (we bought our own with us and made the host learn that). Who amongst you will say the original folks here who refused to sing "God save the Queen" are any less Australian.


Now if I remember correctly us Australians did not treat our women too well either - woman rioted in 1827 over working conditions and food deprivation, not allowed to vote in elections until 1895 and even not allowed to enter upper house of parliament until 1959. It wasn't until 1943 the first woman entered the senate. Ah yes we are quick to degenerate other societies for women's rights but we forget about own Australian progress. Some would argue and rightly so we still don't treat women with equal rights in Australia.


Yes us Australians are quick to judge others. You see we are all good Australians even the Martin Bryants, Ivan Milats and other degenerates amongst this great country.


So next time you are thinking you have more rights to this great country of ours - try putting yourselves in some of our new Australians shoes. What must it take to leave your family, get on a boat and put your life at risk to start a new life. How bad are the conditions where you come from to risk all you have to start again. For most of us we can only imagine - and then we can not imagine the cold, discomfort, stress, fear, pain and intimidation these people feel.


The truth is these new Australians are in some ways more entitled to call Australia home than we are. When we offer them residency in Australia they work hard, pay taxes, contribute to education and culture. They enrich our society. In truth these people will become as Australian as you and I in a couple of generations - and we will be grateful they had the opportunity to call Australian home.


My personal preference for the Australian National Anthem would have been either "Up there Cazaly" or "C'mon Aussie C'mon C'mon" - I am sure our North Qld friends would have sung those anthems with pride.

[Mark L]

Actually, maybe Joyce is the surname .. only just clicked! :Doh:


Yep, after the next election he's potentially Deputy PM and Acting PM at times. Now that would make me proud to be Australian.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

- - - Updated - - -


Why is it that the main stream media do not report the atrocities in the East.

Seems to me they are happy to do so, if them atrocities are committed by people from the "East".
They're not so happy to report the atrocities of the West committed in the "East". It was fun when George and Tony and John invaded Iraq. Hang on, they didn't report the resultant atrocities. We are still dealing with the result of that.

[thegrump]

I am quite tired of people bringing up the wrongs of 200 years ago to justify and argument. 200 years ago we were a uneducated bunch of illiterate morons, who in most cases thought the world was flat. Today we are educated, some what intelligent, we have the internet to furthers our knowledge, and in most cases we know we did the original residence of this country wrong. But what was the alternative stay back in England. Let the Japanese, Indonesians, French, Chinese, who ever inhabit this land, the consequences for the locals may well have been even worse. I am glad my fore fathers invaded this great country, otherwise I would not be living in the best chunk of earth on this planet.

[Brian500au]

I am quite tired of people bringing up the wrongs of 200 years ago to justify and argument.

Yes lets ignore history - then we can repeat the same wrongs again today


200 years ago we were a uneducated bunch of illiterate morons, who in most cases thought the world was flat. Today we are educated, some what intelligent, we have the internet to furthers our knowledge,

Mmmm..Some might disagree with this statement, after all we did elect Tony Abbott as our leader.


But what was the alternative stay back in England. Let the Japanese, Indonesians, French, Chinese, who ever inhabit this land, the consequences for the locals may well have been even worse.

In the words of the great Eric Idle "how much worse could it have been?" I have a feeling given the results of the first invasion the locals may opt for a different choice if they actually could choose again.


I am glad my fore fathers invaded this great country, otherwise I would not be living in the best chunk of earth on this planet.

Once again in the words of the great Eric Idle "Lucky lucky bastard"

[ameerat42]

Precis:
We're all wrong and we're all right all of the time.
And we're always telling each other so.:D

[Steve Axford]

I will add one more thing, which is the basis of my trustworthiness. A few years back, I used to ride my pushbike to work and back. The trip home was a distance of 42km, so I was not dawdling. One day while tearing along a bike path along side the Merri Creek in Coburg, what did I see coming my way. Father and son taking up the head, 4 females coming up the rear covered head to foot. As I approached the son stepped aside to let me through. The father grabbed him and placed him back beside him. Now I had a split second choice, run the kid over, which would had dislodged me from the bike and well have been beaten to death before I was conscious, or leave the track and be impaled by a tree. I choose the second. I did come a cropper in the bush, but un impaled. When I got to my feet and looked at where I had come from, there was Father, son and the 4 females, walking off as if nothing had happened. I could have been badly injured or worse, did they care, NO. In fact I think they wanted me hurt. This act told me, the Father was telling his son "he is not one of us, so he does not matter". Now you are going to say, but that was just one. OK, so next time, do I trust them to step aside for me. NO. It will not happen.

My sympathies. You probably did not read the rules for such paths before using them, and perhaps you still haven't. A cyclist is always required to give way to pedestrians on shared paths and the fact that you were going too fast to stop would indicate a degree of reckless driving on your part. On checking the bicycle rules, it would seem that you are actually not allowed to ride on these shared paths as an adult unless you are supervising children. I hadn't realised that one either, but then I never travelled at a speed that would put walkers in risk of their lives.

[thegrump]

I am pretty sure those rules apply to onroad / footpath bike shared lanes. The path I was on was an off road bike path. I have been involved with many campaigns over many years with Bicycle Victoria.

Bicycle paths You do not have to use an off road bicycle path, separated footpaths or shared paths if there is one.

Riding on a footpath or shared path You can ride on a footpath if you:


are a child under the age of 12
are an adult supervising a child under the age of 12
have been given and are following the conditions on a medical certificate that says you have a disability that makes it difficult for you to ride on the road. You must be able to show the certificate to a police officer or authorised person when asked.

[ameerat42]

Folks, remember to keep discussions on topic and not confrontational.

[Steve Axford]

The rules are a little unclear, but it seems likely that you should not endanger life by riding at a speed that does not allow you to stop should there be a need - eg running into a pedestrian. I was always surprised that there hadn't been a death during the rush hour on one of Melbourne's bike paths. The Merry Creek path isn't wide enough to ride at high speed on. I could imagine any number of people getting upset by high speed cyclists on that path. To use your incident as an excuse to condemn an entire section of humanity seems a little steep. Did you apologise to them?

- - - Updated - - -


Folks, remember to keep discussions on topic and not confrontational.

I missed that. You may delete my post if you wish, though I do think it is on topic and I don't think it is confrontational.

[ameerat42]

Nah! Leave it. That's why I made it "reminder".

[Brian500au]

I will add one more thing, which is the basis of my trustworthiness. A few years back, I used to ride my pushbike to work and back. The trip home was a distance of 42km, so I was not dawdling. One day while tearing along a bike path along side the Merri Creek in Coburg, what did I see coming my way. Father and son taking up the head, 4 females coming up the rear covered head to foot. As I approached the son stepped aside to let me through. The father grabbed him and placed him back beside him. Now I had a split second choice, run the kid over, which would had dislodged me from the bike and well have been beaten to death before I was conscious, or leave the track and be impaled by a tree. I choose the second. I did come a cropper in the bush, but un impaled. When I got to my feet and looked at where I had come from, there was Father, son and the 4 females, walking off as if nothing had happened. I could have been badly injured or worse, did they care, NO. In fact I think they wanted me hurt. This act told me, the Father was telling his son "he is not one of us, so he does not matter". Now you are going to say, but that was just one. OK, so next time, do I trust them to step aside for me. NO. It will not happen.

It is interesting how you have come to the conclusion the family could decide you were not "one of them" by seeing a person riding a bike on the Merri Creek bike path. I have never had that skill where I could look at a person riding a bike and determine their ethnicity, religion or cultural background.

As for the way people dress - I have often wondered why western people wear a "tie". I see no practical purpose other than to distinguish a position of power in a western society. We have even coined a phrase for them as white collar or blue collar workers. I can only assume peer pressure is the reason we must wear one to work in an office, because I certainly don't wear one when i mow the lawns on the weekend. I find them very uncomfortable, too short to wipe my arse and inappropriate to use it to wipe my nose. It always gets in the way when I am eating my lunch, and I can find nowhere in our corporate policy as to why all my colleagues are also wearing a tie around their neck today.

I wonder if other societies suffer the same peer pressure to wear some "head to foot" garb? After all it is not illegal to disburse with burka in Afghanistan since the Taliban lost control over the country.

[Mark L]

If you sing our National Anthem when riding a bike, will everyone get out of the way??:)

[thegrump]

I'm sure with my voice, they would

[Cricket]

Don't get me started on the "burqa" It is just a way for men of those culturse to oppress their women.

If any race decides to live in a country where women have equal rights then that custom should be abided by and respect for women should be practiced by men of any race who decide to live here in Australia.


As for our Australian anthem and Australian flag, they should be respected by everyone. It is not the song nor the material from which they are made that holds the significance but what they stand for. Many of our country men and women have fought and lost their lives protecting for what they stand for.

[thegrump]

Cricket: Amen ( as I wrote that I realized, what a stupid word ). Amended to I agree.

[ameerat42]

Cricket: Amen ( as I wrote that I realized, what a stupid word ). Amended to I agree.

TG. Go tell it on the mountain, ie. to the Hebrews, and so be it. (https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Amen&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=uqQ6VqHVGOG_mAWs-oTYCg):D:D

(Then start running fast back down the mountain:eek::eek:)

[landyvlad]

If any race decides to live in a country where women have equal rights then that custom should be abided by and respect for women should be practiced by men of any race who decide to live here in Australia.


Islam is not a race.

Therefore, despite the whines of the lefties, criticising Islam is not racist.

[ameerat42]

Islam is not a race.

Therefore, despite the whines of the lefties, criticising Islam is not racist.

But it is a religion, and so criticising it - or any other - is still bigotry.

In fact, criticising anything unproductively is that.

[Cage]

But it is a religion, and so criticising it - or any other - is still bigotry.

In fact, criticising anything unproductively is that.

Yes, Islam is a religion, along with Catholicism, Protestantism, (similar/same to Catholicism, till the Poms decided to stop the flow of riches to Rome), Hinduism, Buddhism, Scientology, plus countless other various local beliefs.

Am, most of them espouse the same basic philosophy for living in harmony with your fellows. Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not kill etc, however with some groups it only seems to apply to their own band of followers.

My own particular view of religion is that it was instigated by a few far-seeing people who realised that mankind needed a set of basic principles for it's continued existence. To help the uneducated masses better understand the philosophy, they came up with some unseen superior beings to replace their Sun Gods, Moon Gods, Harvests Gods et al, namely Allah, Buddha, Mohamed, God, or whatever name they chose for their particular area.

If anyone chooses to blindly follow those ancient contrived deitys, well that is their choice, but please don't insult my intelligence by
expecting me kowtow to, be influenced, or intimidated, by your particular version of the God Squad.

And no, I'm not an Atheist. I've experienced too many unexplained occurrences to go down that road. Fortunately, for me, my mind is open to the fact that I don't have all the answers, and probably never will.

[Mark L]

Don't get me started on the "burqa" It is just a way for men of those culturse to oppress their women.

If any race decides to live in a country where women have equal rights then that custom should be abided by and respect for women should be practiced by men of any race who decide to live here in Australia.




If only all man in Australia would respect women’s equal rights and abilities. Domestic violence, rape, un-equal pay, not enough women in high places ....... But that's a whole other thread.
Or I could be totally missing the mark and racism and sexism don't exist in the land gert by sea (woops, another threat).

[Brian500au]

Don't get me started on the "burqa" It is just a way for men of those culturse to oppress their women.

Normally I would leave this alone but I see you have a few likes for this comment so I feel compelled to comment also.

Admittedly there are some countries in the world that have archaic laws for women (women are not allowed to drive in Saudia Arabia), but wear of head dress for women is rarely a way for men to oppress their woman. I work in a very multi cultural society (Singapore). 50% of the people I work with are Muslim. I know this by their chosen name (Muhammad), by the food they eat (or don't eat), the the way they act during some periods of the year (Ramadan) or by the way they dress (head scarf). My immediate manager is a Muslim woman who wears a head scarf. She in no way appears to me to be a submissive woman in any shape or form.

The fact is most Muslim women chose to wear head dress as a personal choice - many do not wear a head dress all time (only on certain occasions). By spreading rumors those that do wear head dress only do so under duress is just adding misconceptions already out there to fuel the bigots and racists already rampant in our society.


If any race decides to live in a country where women have equal rights then that custom should be abided by and respect for women should be practiced by men of any race who decide to live here in Australia.

You are honestly living in a cocoon and in doing so you are adding to the problems we face here in Australia. The following statistics are Australian men against Australian women. Unless by some miracle there has been a dramatic change in those Australian men in the last ten years I would suggest the same statistics are still relevant today. The day we fix our own problems in our own back yard is the day we will be qualified to advise the rest of the planet how to go about setting their policies.

DOMESTIC VIOLENCE STATISTICS
The vast majority of dangerous, abusive and violent behavior that occurs in the privacy of people's homes is committed by men against women. The most recent information on violence in Australia comes from the Australian Bureau of Statistics, Personal Safety Survey (national survey of 16,400 adults in Australian aged 18 years and over) conducted in 2005. The first issue of this survey was conducted in 1996. The 2005 survey found:


Just under half a million Australian women reported that they had experienced physical or sexual violence or sexual assault in the past 12 months.



More than a million women had experienced physical or sexual assault by their male current or ex-partner since the age of 15 (some women may be counted twice if they experienced both physical and sexual assault).



37.8% of women who experienced physical assault in the 12 months before the survey said the perpetrator was a current or previous male partner and 34.4% said the perpetrator was a male family member or friend. Most incidences of physical assault against women in the 12 months prior to 2005 were committed in a home (64.1%).



33.3% of women had experienced physical violence since the age of 15.



19.1% of women had experienced sexual violence since the age of 15.



12.4% of women had been sexually abused before the age of 15, compared with 4.5% of men, between 1996 and 2005. There was an increase in the reporting of sexual assault to police from 14.9% to 18.9% between 1996 and 2005 and there was an increase in the reporting of physical violence to police from 18.5% to 36%.



64% of women who experienced physical assault and 81.1% of women who experienced sexual assault still did not report it to police. The proportion of women aged between 18 and 34 who reported experiencing physical violence has decreased but the proportion of women who reported experiencing physical violence after 45 increased over the same period. The percentage of women who reported that their children had witnessed partner-related violence either from a current or ex-partner was lower than in 1996.



The majority of violence against men is committed by other men. Of men who reported that they had experienced physical violence in the 12 months before the survey, 73.7% said that the perpetrator was a male.



Source: Department of Families, Housing and Community Affairs Fact Sheet 2 Women's Safety.

[Cage]

Perhaps we should all climb back up into the trees for a couple of hundred thousand years, and contemplate the mess we have created, particularly in the last couple of hundred years.

Advances in medical science has extended our life expectancy, however on the other hand we have fine tuned the methods to exterminate each other.

[Cricket]

Brian I do not agree with you so we will just have to agree to disagree. If you had read my post I refer to the burqa, which is head to foot covering only allowing a slit for the eyes. Why do you think their men insist on women wearing this garment in public? I am not referring to a simple head scarf covering the head. Research head coverings, as one will find that even Christians over time have worn head coverings in church and for religious reasons.

I also refer you back to my post where I state that ""any race" who decides to live in a country where women have equal rights then that custom should be abided by and respect for women should be practiced by men of any race who decide to live here in Australia" and to me that statement also includes Australians.

I believe I made no mention of religion what so ever in my post.

Your statistics on domestic violence however is not complete as it does not state whether these men are Australian born, Australian citizens, or Australian residents but I do agree they do list "men"


And futhermore I stand by my last paragraph in my original post 100%

[ameerat42]

Perhaps we should all climb back up into the trees for a couple of hundred thousand years, and contemplate the mess we have created, particularly in the last couple of hundred years.

Advances in medical science has extended our life expectancy, however on the other hand we have fine tuned the methods to exterminate each other.

Better than going on a 1-way trip to Mars and wrecking that place too!:eek::eek:

[MattNQ]

Better than going on a 1-way trip to Mars and wrecking that place too!:eek::eek:

I still find it funny that we are wasting billions of dollars with the pointless SETI program and various space probes and planetary missions to find signs of intelligent life elsewhere when we seem have trouble finding intelligent life here on earth.:lol2:

[Brian500au]

Brian I do not agree with you so we will just have to agree to disagree. If you had read my post I refer to the burqa, which is head to foot covering only allowing a slit for the eyes. Why do you think their men insist on women wearing this garment in public? I am not referring to a simple head scarf covering the head. Research head coverings, as one will find that even Christians over time have worn head coverings in church and for religious reasons.

I also refer you back to my post where I state that ""any race" who decides to live in a country where women have equal rights then that custom should be abided by and respect for women should be practiced by men of any race who decide to live here in Australia" and to me that statement also includes Australians.

I believe I made no mention of religion what so ever in my post.

Your statistics on domestic violence however is not complete as it does not state whether these men are Australian born, Australian citizens, or Australian residents but I do agree they do list "men"


And futhermore I stand by my last paragraph in my original post 100%

Fair enough

I also agree with your last paragraph 100% but did not mention that in my post - my apologies.

i suppose my whole point is we need to walk a little in someone's else's shoes. Races are not bad - individual people are bad, but we should not lump everybody into the same bucket.

[ameerat42]

Surely that's why they're looking elsewhere, Matt:D

[jim]

I still find it funny that we are wasting billions of dollars with the pointless SETI program and various space probes and planetary missions to find signs of intelligent life elsewhere when we seem have trouble finding intelligent life here on earth.:lol2:

SETI doesn't cost billions, and space probes (which are expensive) aren't primarily aimed at finding extraterrestrial life.

[Allie]

It would be nice if we treated people as people first then based on their actual nature maybe look further into other aspects of their lives.

In the bike riding incident, the son moved over to give way and the father made him move back, in the time taken to observe that the bike rider could have stopped and let all pedestrians proceed - I used to live very near Merri Creek and that is always a possibility for a careful cyclist!

Most people are just the same as you or any other person but due to the behaviour of some of the people of their religion/appearance/colour they are all placed into a particular category which inspires fear of the unknown. Some radical/anarchistic/power hungry people who wish to use that fear to cause mayhem and discord all of which also hurts people of that same religion/appearance/colour as much as those they choose to malign. It is too easy to give into the fear and categorise all members of a particular group into the "fearsome ones" but that is not the actuality. However it means that the myth is perpetuated and continues to create divides. Look at the attitudes towards Australian Aborigines even today after over a century of abuse, people of Asian appearance, historical persecution of Jews, current persecution of Arabs, "boat people", refugees in all countries, Somalis, etc etc most of based on nothing but fear of the unknown or losing jobs or other fears etc.

I have read no muslim posts requesting that catholic nuns stop wearing habits or priests collars, no muslims requesting non observance of christian beliefs or celebrations or closures of retreats, convents or monasteries but plenty of lies that they have by those wishing to cause more fear and hatred.

My partner is currently in hospital and he has had Egyptian, Chinese, Sri Lankan, Indian, African, UK English, Caucasian Australian, Hijab wearing Arabian (among other nationality) Doctors and Nurses and all have treated him with respect and have helped with his condition. They show as much care for him as they do every other patient. It is a sad world when we all cannot do the same to other people rather than listening to the poison and lies meant to cause division and fear.

[thegrump]

I rode that trail for 20 years, always with the respect for the pedestrians. I always gave pedestrians, who I came up from behind plenty of warning and I slowed down when passing. It is not a shared path, pedestrian who came towards me allways with out fall would move to one side and let me pass. I am not saying they moved off the path, just to one side. If, as was suggested, I ride at speed where I could stop when approached by a pedestrian, it would take me many hours to reach home. Besides I would slow when approached by an on coming pedestrian, As always they would move aside. In this instance I did slow but I was not expecting to have no where to go at the last moment. Why the hell should I stop. It was a deliberate act on the fathers side to cause me to run off the track. and when I did so, he did not give a rats, if I was injured. Any civil minded person would go to the aid of an injured person. Why am I in the wrong?, because I ride a bike. MY LAST WORDS ON THE SUBJECT

[ricktas]

I rode that trail for 20 years, always with the respect for the pedestrians. I always gave pedestrians, who I came up from behind plenty of warning and I slowed down when passing. It is not a shared path, pedestrian who came towards me allways with out fall would move to one side and let me pass. I am not saying they moved off the path, just to one side. If, as was suggested, I ride at speed where I could stop when approached by a pedestrian, it would take me many hours to reach home. Besides I would slow when approached by an on coming pedestrian, As always they would move aside. In this instance I did slow but I was not expecting to have no where to go at the last moment. Why the hell should I stop. It was a deliberate act on the fathers side to cause me to run off the track. and when I did so, he did not give a rats, if I was injured. Any civil minded person would go to the aid of an injured person. Why am I in the wrong?, because I ride a bike. MY LAST WORDS ON THE SUBJECT

But that could have been anyone from any religion or race. Plenty of 'Aussies' think doing stuff like that to cyclists is funny. Making the leap from what one person does, to everyone from that religion or race being the same, is a leap that should not be made. Martin Bryant is a white christian mass murderer, but we do not see, even people who were there when it happened, making the assumption that all blonde, surfie looking, white christians should be feared and avoided.

I am an Athiest, but it is not my fault. It is just the way god made me!:D

[Warbler]

Mass murder is a little different to not allowing a cyclist room on a bike path don't you think? I didn't see any reports that Bryant was yelling "God is Great!" as he shot and killed all those people either. In fact it was reported that he had expressed the sentiment that today he was going to Isle of the Dead to kill WASPs. White Anglo-Saxon Professionals to those who don't know the expression. In any case, we're a long way from the original post about people of one religion not having to stand or sing the Australian National Anthem, don't you think?

[ricktas]

Mass murder is a little different to not allowing a cyclist room on a bike path don't you think? I didn't see any reports that Bryant was yelling "God is Great!" as he shot and killed all those people either. In fact it was reported that he had expressed the sentiment that today he was going to Isle of the Dead to kill WASPs. White Anglo-Saxon Professionals to those who don't know the expression. In any case, we're a long way from the original post about people of one religion not having to stand or sing the Australian National Anthem, don't you think?

All conversations evolve! You missed my point. That some are defining a whole group based on the actions of one or a few. And for some reason religion seems to be the brunt of that a fair bit. It is interesting to watch a conversation where photographers are being demeaned or belittled cause of the action of one photographer. We all stand up for 'our rights' and say things like 'yes he was bad, but not all photographers are', yet when it is the other way round, some of us will happily join the bandwagon.

And.. just cause someone yells 'God/Allah is great' does not make them a bad person!

[Warbler]

Agree that blaming a whole religion based on one incident is not the way to go. Thinking there might be an issue with it though, based on all the acts committed in its name is probably not such a long stretch though.

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/mo_tivation_unknown/

[Cage]

In any case, we're a long way from the original post about people of one religion not having to stand or sing the Australian National Anthem, don't you think?

Thank you Warbler.

I started this thread because I naively thought that people who fled their homeland because of political, religious, or any other form of intolerance, would be just a little bit keen to embrace the culture, life style, and rules, of their adopted homeland.

I was also under the misapprehension that they would want to blend in with the locals, be part of the community, and not carry on with the same crap that they had run away from.

Silly me to think that the new arrivals would want to live in harmony with the existing populace and not rock the bloody boat?

[ricktas]

Agree that blaming a whole religion based on one incident is not the way to go. Thinking there might be an issue with it though, based on all the acts committed in its name is probably not such a long stretch though.

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/mo_tivation_unknown/

Considering Mohammed is a name that is equivalent to our John, Matthew, Mark, Luke then I wonder if we really delved into the stats, how many of those names appear in the history books associated with similar events?

Martin John Bryant
John Wayne Gacey
John Bunting (snow town)

It is not hard to find them

[ameerat42]

Don't forget
Mohammed Manson.
Mohammed [that creep hopefully languishing (in the true sense) in a Tasmanian prison and who shall remain nameless],
Mohammed [that Norwegian worthy of even greater despising in his own country's institution]

A bit further back in history there were also:
Mohammed Stalin (though he preferred the Slavic version: "Comrade".
Mohammed Hitler (apparently he liked being called "Heil".
Mohammed Pot
Mohammed Amin.
...
...

Yeah, it's amazing that in a story of Mohammeds everyone is called Mohammed!:nod:

Now, if you think I'm being an apologist, consider it true: but only for some perspective.:cool:

[Warbler]

Yes, you're right Rick. I think Steyn's original article was a piece of sarcasm and intended as an exaggeration. Everyone should know that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were Apostles and therefore Christian names. Hell everyone used to have Christianames in this country before they had Firstnames....:lol:


The Spanish even name their children Jesus. I haven't yet seen anyone name their children God, but I'm sure that will happen soon enough. The point though is that Christians don't name their children Muhammed and vice-versa. Mass murderers called John usually don't yell "God is great" in the midst of their dirty deeds. See! Now I'm way off topic too.

[jim]

Thank you Warbler.

I started this thread because I naively thought that people who fled their homeland because of political, religious, or any other form of intolerance, would be just a little bit keen to embrace the culture, life style, and rules, of their adopted homeland.

I was also under the misapprehension that they would want to blend in with the locals, be part of the community, and not carry on with the same crap that they had run away from.

Silly me to think that the new arrivals would want to live in harmony with the existing populace and not rock the bloody boat?

But most of them do, Cage. They join in with the community, don't make a fuss and fall off the radar. It's the minority who don't care about fitting in who make all the noise. Though having said that, you can't expect immigrants to abandon all the values and traditions they were brought up with. So even if they make a genuine effort to fit in, there's still potential for friction.

[Brian500au]

I dont see SMH write and article about all the people who don't stand at the AFL when they play the national anthem during the Anzac day match nor the grand final. Suppose that will not really be interesting as a read as it involves Aussies.

I have to admit when i was a kid at school half the kids did not give a dam about the National anthem and only stood there during assembly else we would get the strap. It wasn't until i left school I realized the second line of the first verse was not "PUT HER IN A DUNNY AND PULL THE CHAIN".

Don't equate for a minute my attitude towards our national anthem when I was a kid to how patriotic I feel when it comes to the sacrifice some people have made to better this country.

SMH made a mountain out of a mole hill in order to sell papers - and you fell for it.

[ameerat42]

It sure did!

But I think you've got the words wrong, Kel.

It goes: "Australians all led ostriches...", so I've been told, but you'd expect emus.

[Cage]

SMH made a mountain out of a mole hill in order to sell papers - and you fell for it.

I didn't fall for anything, Mate !

I merely directed attention to a newspaper article that reported on the happenings at a meeting where the main speaker stated that Muslim children should not have to sing the National Anthem at school. This was nothing to do with an individuals freedom of choice, but rather a suggestion that as an ethnic group, they didn't need to show respect for their adopted country's Anthem.

If you don't believe that statement is encouraging separatism, just keep your head firmly stuck in the sand.

[Brian500au]

I didn't fall for anything, Mate !

If you don't believe that statement is encouraging separatism, just keep your head firmly stuck in the sand.

With all due respect that statement is one of thousands of statements made everyday over social media. I am simply saying by reporting on it encourages "separatism". This would have been a non event if not for the SMH. Of course I agree there are radicals in society encouraging young individuals to perform violent acts. Once again by reporting it in the SMH really does not solve problems - if anything it opens up a discussion that encourages this type of behavior - we bring out the haters which fuels and justifies the extremists. These people are extremists hiding behind a veil of their own version of religion. It is not exclusive to Muslims, and the sects of Jonestown and Wacol support this argument. Some of the most barbaric acts in the world today are committed by Christians against Christians.

It is a difficult dilemma - where do we suppress the right to free speech. We are lucky in Australia we almost have the some of the most liberal laws in the world when it comes to freedom of speech. In Singapore you cannot criticize a democratically elected government and in Thailand one spoken or written word criticizing the royal family will see you do a jail term.

The "you" in my statement was not directed at "you" personally but more a general "you".

Just to clarify. Australia does NOT have Free Speech legislation. That would be the USA.

As for my head in the sand I promise you I am far from it. I am very open minded and listen to all sides of the discussion. I have worked and traveled extensively in the past ten years, working amongst many different cultures and religions. I have come to conclusion the world is mostly filled with people the same as you and me. They want their children to grow up in a safe environment, and given more opportunity than they were afforded themselves. We all bleed the same color, and the more tolerance we exhibit can only lead to a better place for all of us.

[Warbler]

where do we suppress the right to free speech

Why would you be advocating suppression of free speech? I mean, it wouldn't be free then, would it?

[Brian500au]

Why would you be advocating suppression of free speech? I mean, it wouldn't be free then, would it?

What i mean is if we agree on freedom of speech then we need to accept not everything said is going to be a positive speech. We also give the radicals the right to spew the garbage they do.

The best thing we can do to not encourage this is to not give them any publicity when the do.

[ricktas]

It is a difficult dilemma - where do we suppress the right to free speech. We are lucky in Australia we almost have the some of the most liberal laws in the world when it comes to freedom of speech.

Just to clarify. Australia does NOT have Free Speech legislation. That would be the USA.

In Australia, you have a right to an opinion. We also have racial discrimination, defamation and slander laws, so whilst you can say what you think, you do not have any protection under the law to just say whatever you want to. Making a statement that is defamatory or slanderous might not get you gaol time, but it could cost your bank account considerably.

[Warbler]

The best thing we can do to not encourage this is to not give them any publicity when the do.

We'll have to disagree on this Kel. There is too much self-censorship in the media now on this and issues like Climate Change. I'd rather not outsource my moral compass to spotty-faced journos and progressive editors.

[Brian500au]

We'll have to disagree on this Kel. There is too much self-censorship in the media now on this and issues like Climate Change. I'd rather not outsource my moral compass to spotty-faced journos and progressive editors.

Warbler we are really not too far apart. It is obvious here by the whole thread we all do not agree with garbage these radicals spew, but how do we dis-encourage it. I am sure the AFP ponder this question every day.

In fact reading through this thread we all have more in agreement than disagreement. We just have different ways of expressing ourselves.

As for climate change - please start a new thread I am sure we can fill another five pages :lol:

[Hawthy]

Back to the original article that horrified some members…

So, a few dissident Muslims do not want to sing the national anthem. Is that such a big deal? Last time I looked it was not unlawful to be unpatriotic.

I tend to agree with Samuel Johnson who said that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. Draping yourself in an Australian flag and singing Advance Australia Fair or Waltzing Matilda does not make you more or less patriotic than someone who does not. It does not make you a better citizen.

If you have ever read Catch 22 (quite possibly the greatest novel ever written) there is a part where all of the airmen have to sign a Loyalty Pledge pledging their loyalty to the USA so that their Commanding Officer can prove that he is more patriotic than anyone else. They do not sign just one pledge. They have to pledge before every meal, when obtaining supplies, even when getting their hair cut.

Their CO, Captain Black, tells his colleagues, “The important thing is to keep them pledging...it doesn't matter whether they mean it or not. That's why they make little kids pledge allegiance even before they know what 'pledge' and 'allegiance' mean”.

Integrating different cultures into the one society is a complex process and thinking that it would all be better if only they would be more like us and sing the national anthem is a bit simplistic.

[Cage]

Back to the original article that horrified some members…

So, a few dissident Muslims do not want to sing the national anthem. Is that such a big deal? Last time I looked it was not unlawful to be unpatriotic.

Integrating different cultures into the one society is a complex process and thinking that it would all be better if only they would be more like us and sing the national anthem is a bit simplistic.

I think you've missed the point here Hawthy. It is not 'a few dissident Muslims' exercising their democratic right not to stand for, or sing the anthem, but rather a suggestion that could possibly lead to a Muslim directive that Muslim school kids are not to sing the anthem. For starters that would almost certainly cause the young kids confusion, wondering why they were being asked to act differently to the other kids at their school. And there you go, orchestrated separatism in the school yard.

Lets give them a chance to be part of the school community without added restrictions. Lets give them a chance to get an education and develop their own ideology. Whoops, that's not going to happen as their religious leaders would see that as losing some control over their religious indoctrination.

And it's about time religious instruction was banned in schools. How education departments can justify allowing teaching of a subject with no factual basis is beyond my comprehension.

[Steve Axford]

In the interests of accuracy I decided to do a bit more research on this Muslim conference in Sydney. I came across an Aljazeèra article on the Innocent until proven Muslim conference. http://www.aljazeera.com/blogs/asia/2015/11/proven-muslim-australia-oppression-hizb-ut-tahrir-discrimination-151101204455898.html. It would seem that the AJ journalist wasn't very impressed with said conference either. Fortunately in Australia we persuade people to act reasonably by example, rather than the Saudi method of whipping or the Taliban method of a car bomb.
I'm with Cage. Let's keep religion out of government schools

[MattNQ]

SETI doesn't cost billions, and space probes (which are expensive) aren't primarily aimed at finding extraterrestrial life.

ok. point taken. I have been told a billion times not to exaggerate. :D

As an engineer, I love the technology behind space exploration. But why spend millions to explore Mars, and look for signs of water and life when we cannot manage the planet we have here?
I don't mean to be cynical, but the most likely goal here is they want find minerals on Mars that are scarce here, as there are many $$ to be made. A bit off-topic, I know.

In terms of the topic at hand, all I will say is that in recent times, the media have been pushing political and social agendas for their own gain, promoting division in the community and stifling intelligent public debate.

[Warbler]

A question for you Matt.... If you had all your precious data on just one HDD, would you think that was a good strategy? Wouldn't you be better backing up your data to another location so that if something happened to the original, the backup would still be available? As long as our data (life) exists in only one location (planet), then the next big asteroid to hit here could wipe us all out along with all other life. Then it would be as if we never existed and all the good would go with the bad. There have been five such events in our planet's past with the death of the dinosaurs being only the most recent. The biggest event is estimated to have made 96% of all species extinct. When we get our next big visitor is anybody's guess, but it will happen one day. We've already seen a comet hit a planet in our solar system in our lifetime. Remember Comet Shoemaker-Levi?

Five Extinction Events:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/extinction_events

[ricktas]

A question for you Matt.... If you had all your precious data on just one HDD, would you think that was a good strategy? Wouldn't you be better backing up your data to another location so that if something happened to the original, the backup would still be available? As long as our data (life) exists in only one location (planet), then the next big asteroid to hit here could wipe us all out along with all other life. Then it would be as if we never existed and all the good would go with the bad. There have been five such events in our planet's past with the death of the dinosaurs being only the most recent. The biggest event is estimated to have made 96% of all species extinct. When we get our next big visitor is anybody's guess, but it will happen one day. We've already seen a comet hit a planet in our solar system in our lifetime. Remember Comet Shoemaker-Levi?

Five Extinction Events:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/extinction_events

And that is the nature of it all. Humans worst aspect is that we think we are better than everything else. That we will prevail and survive no matter what we do. If/When it happens, so be it. I reckon we need a good cleansing anyway. If something like the spanish flu raised its head and sadly removed a billion or three, the planet would instantly be much better off.

[Warbler]

That's very sad Rick. No kids? I guess you could opt out any time you want, but you don't. Why? Because there are plenty of good things as well as the bad.

[ricktas]

That's very sad Rick. No kids? I guess you could opt out any time you want, but you don't. Why? Because there are plenty of good things as well as the bad.

Why is it sad? The reality is that all humans are mortal and we all die. Rather than openly discuss death, as a society, we seem hell-bent on not talking about it. Perhaps I am different, cause I do not fear death. It is inevitable. I think it is sad that we cannot/ do not discuss this more openly. The only thing I think is sad is this belief that life should be sustained at any cost, and 'think of our children' is a cop-out to not discuss death more openly. All we are doing is covering up and hiding from something that is natural.

[Warbler]

Well it's sad because you're wishing for the deaths of millions/billions through a pandemic.

[ricktas]

Well it's sad because you're wishing for the deaths of millions/billions through a pandemic.

something needs to happen, or ALL humans will be gone within a few generations.

[Warbler]

To get back on topic, I'm sure someone is working on it right now, and the selection criteria to decide who goes and who stays is in a book dating back to medieval times.

[thegrump]

wrong language
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL0hgxnmJgY)

[arthurking83]

1. The problem is that humans have a tendency to overthink a situation and any consequences, but without the capacity to think it through properly.
2. Those seeds arent' worth spreading yet .. so I'm with Rick .. why bother spreading the seed.

While it's a noble sentiment, and would be fantastic if we lived in a tolerant utopian community, the reality is that we don't. Even tho we're all the same, we only ever look for the differences in our society and inflame those differences into stupid and futile animosities.

I agree that the story is a bit of a beatup .. but I also care little for the anthem, but not because I'm not patriotic, but because I think nationalism is stupid!
There's more to life than just being Australian .. and hence singing an annoying and not very pleasant tune.

While it may be true that 'we' picked that song over a few others .. those 'we' are not necessarily us .. like Eric Jones said in 'The Holy Grail' .. "Well, I didn't vote for 'ya!" :D

I have to disagree with Matt on one point tho .. I'd rather see all the world's current financial and human resources being directed into so called 'defence' redirected to more enlightening scientific endeavours .. predominantly space exploration!(and health too tho!).
We really shouldn't be defending ourselves against ourselves!

And yes to all religious education being banned form all schools .. public and or private.
It should be legislated that if religion is to be taught, it must be separated form the school time given to educate our next generations.
They should be teaching(or educating) kids on what religion has done over the course of our known histories.

I remember an argument once with my mum on religion(and her utter devotion to it) ..

How come the old Greeks believed in something so utterly and diametrically opposed to what they currently believe in?
I can't imagine a situation where a people transition from a polytheistic belief to a monotheistic one instead!
How do you explain that to the general population of the time?(with any semblance of sanity!) Imagine that happening now :p

I probably sound quite intolerant of religion(which I reckon I am) .. but whichever way you look at it, that's the core reason why people have always been at odds with one another.
An incoherent babble of verses made up thousands of years ago by a lazy power hungry collection of megalomaniancs, without any inkling as to the eventual consequences that these beliefs were going to spawn!(see #1 above).
So in overthinking this as a solution to a problem(that in all likleyhood never existed) it wasn't well thought out as a long term solution(see #2 above).
I couldn't imagine any reason to continue on this path without first becoming more tolerant and smarter on the whole(and that's directed primarily at the governing leaders)

[ameerat42]

To get back on topic, I'm sure someone is working on it right now, and the selection criteria to decide who goes and who stays is in a book dating back to medieval times.

Gosh, I hope N:eek:T! Where would we all go?

- - - Updated - - -



wrong language
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL0hgxnmJgY)

That was an old movie.:nod:

Webby kwebber and kwiptic, TG:D

Kwiptic, BTW, is Kripke's (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Tl5divePA) pronunciation of his own name.
(And bonus here.) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBxc5wyCuy8)

[Steve Axford]

Why is it sad? The reality is that all humans are mortal and we all die. Rather than openly discuss death, as a society, we seem hell-bent on not talking about it. Perhaps I am different, cause I do not fear death. It is inevitable. I think it is sad that we cannot/ do not discuss this more openly. The only thing I think is sad is this belief that life should be sustained at any cost, and 'think of our children' is a cop-out to not discuss death more openly. All we are doing is covering up and hiding from something that is natural.

I agree.

To Warbler: I don't think that the damage we are doing is sustainable in the long term. Maybe that is sad if we all die, maybe it isn't. I don't think the universe cares one way or the other (do universes care about anything?). If we care, maybe we should do something about it.

[Warbler]

Yeah, I'll get a Eurocopter and some fast cars and motorbikes so I can save the planet by flying into all the anti-coal protests.

[Steve Axford]

That's probably not the smartest plan if you hope to ensure the safety of your children.

[Mark L]

Yeah, I'll get a Eurocopter and some fast cars and motorbikes so I can save the planet by flying into all the anti-coal protests.
That fits with the first two words of this threads tittle.:confused013;)

[Warbler]

That fits with the first two words of this threads tittle.:confused013;)

So, it's the three and not the three billion that worries you? Now that fits the first two words of this thread title. :nod:

[Steve Axford]

So, it's the three and not the three billion that worries you? Now that fits the first two words of this thread title. :nod:

Are you suggesting that if you murder some anti coal mining protesters that you will save the world from a pandemic? I don't follow the logic. To use a phrase that Pauline Hanson made famous, "Please explain?".

[Warbler]

Are you suggesting that if you murder some anti coal mining protesters.....

I merely find it disturbing that MarkL would find my comments about the deaths of three more disturbing than people wishing for the deaths of three billion. Don't put words into my mouth.

[Steve Axford]

I don't recall anyone wishing for the deaths of 3 billion. Rick suggested that if there was a pandemic the world would probably benefit. I don't recall him saying he wished for it. That was you putting words into his mouth.
As for your comment about "saving the planet by flying into all the anti-coal protests". How is this meant to save the planet?.

[Kym]

I'll say it again... (refer earlier post) http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?142767-Very-disturbing-article-in-the-SMH-today&p=1323092&viewfull=1#post1323092

islam is not just a religion but a political ideology. islam has ZERO separation of church and state.
The issue I will criticise is the islamic political ideology which is so corrupt as it has has no room for peaceful co-existence.
Without a major reform islam will cause a major global conflict - which is sadly inevitable; what has happened so far is chicken feed.

We must stand against islamic political ideology and if that means banning islam then so be it.
Don't be deceived by the idea of 'moderate' islam - in the end it is a myth.
We must vigorously oppose islamic political ideology. (Funny thing if you do you are called racist - but we do need to speak out loudly regardless of name calling)

We have a weekly phone call with my wife's cousin who lives in a small German town of about 15,000 people.
Each week we hear more and more about the impact of the flood of migrant on this small community.
There is a right wing uprising happening now; sadly that is not a good thing but is being forced by merkel's dumb policies.
The reason for the uprising by ordinary people is simple... self preservation.
Rapes, theft, death threats that are not actioned by the police are creating this uprising.
The media are not allowed to report on this; but Germany is heading for an explosion.
NB: It is not just the recent influx but what the Germans refer to as the Turks (which is a generic islamic influx over the last 30 years)

[Kym]

Keep things on fact, DO NOT get personal

[Steve Axford]

I'll say it again... (refer earlier post) http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?142767-Very-disturbing-article-in-the-SMH-today&p=1323092&viewfull=1#post1323092

islam is not just a religion but a political ideology. islam has ZERO separation of church and state.
The issue I will criticise is the islamic political ideology which is so corrupt as it has has no room for peaceful co-existence.
Without a major reform islam will cause a major global conflict - which is sadly inevitable; what has happened so far is chicken feed.

We must stand against islamic political ideology and if that means banning islam then so be it.
Don't be deceived by the idea of 'moderate' islam - in the end it is a myth.
We must vigorously oppose islamic political ideology. (Funny thing if you do you are called racist - but we do need to speak out loudly regardless of name calling)

We have a weekly phone call with my wife's cousin who lives in a small German town of about 15,000 people.
Each week we hear more and more about the impact of the flood of migrant on this small community.
There is a right wing uprising happening now; sadly that is not a good thing but is being forced by merkel's dumb policies.
The reason for the uprising by ordinary people is simple... self preservation.
Rapes, theft, death threats that are not actioned by the police are creating this uprising.
The media are not allowed to report on this; but Germany is heading for an explosion.
NB: It is not just the recent influx but what the Germans refer to as the Turks (which is a generic islamic influx over the last 30 years)

In a court of law, this would be said to be a mixture of opinion and hearsay. Where are the facts that you wish to keep things on?

I'll pick up just one sentence of yours, and that is "Don't be deceived by the idea of 'moderate' islam - in the end it is a myth." I have spent quite a lot of time in Java and while, like all peoples, they have their faults, they are in general a very peaceful, tolerant people. You could probably describe them as "moderate Islam". Just as Australians, who also have their faults, are in general a peaceful, tolerant people. We could probably be described as "moderate Christian", though I suspect that many of us would claim no religion so perhaps just "moderate" (in general of course).

[Warbler]

As for your comment about "saving the planet by flying into all the anti-coal protests". How is this meant to save the planet?.

My point exactly.

[Kym]

I'll pick up just one sentence of yours, and that is "Don't be deceived by the idea of 'moderate' islam - in the end it is a myth." I have spent quite a lot of time in Java and while, like all peoples, they have their faults, they are in general a very peaceful, tolerant people. You could probably describe them as "moderate Islam". Just as Australians, who also have their faults, are in general a peaceful, tolerant people. We could probably be described as "moderate Christian", though I suspect that many of us would claim no religion so perhaps just "moderate" (in general of course).

I understand that. I guess I'm referring to the non-integrating migrants and others who take on the hard line islamic ideology.
That said in discussion with muslims I know, when it comes to leaving islam that is a big no no; they say it is impossible because they think they would be killed.
Further, whilst they are very peaceful, there are fundamental things they won't change that are in direct conflict with living in Australia.
Eg. the status of women.
Nice people, but intractable on deeper issues.

[Cage]

I started this thread because I have concerns about the 'Australia' my kids, grand-kids and their kids are going to be residing in.

This Religious War, and that is exactly what it is, is merely a continuation of what was started in 1095 with the Crusades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

A quote from that Wikipedia article ...."The Crusades were military campaigns sanctioned by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages. In 1095 Byzantine Emperor Alexios I, in Constantinople, sent an ambassador to Pope Urban II in Italy pleading for military help against the growing Turkish threat."

In those early days the Christians, a misnomer if ever there was one, were the aggressors. Over time the wheel has been turning and we now have the reverse of that situation.

I'm sure that most followers of Islam are just like you and me, wanting to put food on the tables for their families and a roof over their heads, and hoping to peacefully co-exist with their neighbors, whatever their religious beliefs.

Unfortunately, they are the silent majority. It is the radical vocal minority, and they run into the hundreds of millions, that are causing the problem.

Education is the answer, as witnessed by the emancipation of the common folk in the western world from the gobbledygook of Christianity. In particular, Catholicism's iron grip is now not much more than a weak grasp, and it's power is lessening daily.

Unfortunately, I can't see the radical Islamic minority allowing that to happen, as education would erode their indoctrination of young open minds.

As I said in the first line of this post, I have concerns.

[Kym]

Cage;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo

Also generically on wars Philip and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars, which chronicles some 1,763 wars that have been waged over the course of human history. Of those wars, the authors categorize 123 as being religious in nature, which is an astonishingly low 6.98% of all wars. However, when one subtracts out those waged in the name of Islam (66), the percentage is cut by more than half to 3.23%.

[Steve Axford]

To Kym, I'm not going to support the laws in Muslim countries which proscribe the death penalty for apostasy, but Indonesia is not one of them.
I am totally against all religious dictatorships, including those emanating from the Islamic countries, but I would point out that it is not that long ago that our religions also practised similar things. Many of these peoples need to be given time and help to move on, rather than the abuse and exploitation that we have thrown them for the last 50 (or is that 1000) years. Why is there a religious dictatorship in Saudi Arabia? Perhaps because we installed the regime in order to keep the oil safe. Why do the Iranians hate us so much? Perhaps because the West helped overthrow an elected democratic government of theirs and put in the Shah. The list goes on. We are not blameless in the mess that is now the Middle East.

[Cage]

@Kym

So whose stats do you believe. Dr Bill Warner states that there were 548 Jihads against christian countries over a 1400 year period yet Philip and Axelrod apparently don't see those conflicts as having any religious connotation.

[Mark L]

Yeah, I'll get a Eurocopter and some fast cars and motorbikes so I can save the planet by flying into all the anti-coal protests.


That fits with the first two words of this threads tittle.:confused013;)


I merely find it disturbing that MarkL would find my comments about the deaths of three more disturbing than people wishing for the deaths of three billion. Don't put words into my mouth.

mmmm, I don't see where you mentioned saving three billion people?
Was simply saying I found you original comment very disturbing. Don't put words into my mouth.:)

[MattNQ]

Yeah, I'll get a Eurocopter and some fast cars and motorbikes so I can save the planet by flying into all the anti-coal protests.
Is Richard Green fair game now he's dead?

sent from Earth via tapatalk

[Warbler]

Is Richard Green fair game now he's dead?

sent from Earth via tapatalk

Read the papers over the past few days? Apparently he is, and rightly so. Ban the coal industry, but don't take my gas-guzzlers off me. Do as I say and not as I do. Green hypocrites really, don't you think?

[MattNQ]

Read the papers over the past few days? Apparently he is, and rightly so. Ban the coal industry, but don't take my gas-guzzlers off me. Do as I say and not as I do. Green hypocrites really, don't you think?
Nope don't read the news every day. Too depressing. Everyone is a hypocrite to some degree. My line of work, We've had people ringing up complaining about 'ugly' mobile phone towers and whining about radiation from the tower...... And they were using their mobile to ring.... Yes if we want our luxuries they do come at a price.
But if we get an Islamic caliphate, we'll all be living in the 14th century....which should keep the die-hard greenies happy.


....

sent from Earth via tapatalk

[Warbler]

Nope don't read the news every day. Too depressing. Everyone is a hypocrite to some degree. My line of work, We've had people ringing up complaining about 'ugly' mobile phone towers and whining about radiation from the tower...... And they were using their mobile to ring.... Yes if we want our luxuries they do come at a price.
But if we get an Islamic caliphate, we'll all be living in the 14th century....which should keep the die-hard greenies happy.


....

sent from Earth via tapatalk

NIMBY - another name for hypocrite.

[Steve Axford]

NIMBY - another name for hypocrite.

To quote the blurb for the book Why Everyone (Else) Is a Hypocrite: Evolution and the Modular Mind by Robert Kurzban http://press.princeton.edu/titles/9271.html

"We're all hypocrites. Why? Hypocrisy is the natural state of the human mind.

Robert Kurzban shows us that the key to understanding our behavioral inconsistencies lies in understanding the mind's design. The human mind consists of many specialized units designed by the process of evolution by natural selection. While these modules sometimes work together seamlessly, they don't always, resulting in impossibly contradictory beliefs, vacillations between patience and impulsiveness, violations of our supposed moral principles, and overinflated views of ourselves.

This modular, evolutionary psychological view of the mind undermines deeply held intuitions about ourselves, as well as a range of scientific theories that require a "self" with consistent beliefs and preferences. Modularity suggests that there is no "I." Instead, each of us is a contentious "we"--a collection of discrete but interacting systems whose constant conflicts shape our interactions with one another and our experience of the world.

In clear language, full of wit and rich in examples, Kurzban explains the roots and implications of our inconsistent minds, and why it is perfectly natural to believe that everyone else is a hypocrite."

So, hello Mr NIMBY, alias Warbler ;)

[Warbler]

So, hello Mr NIMBY, alias Warbler ;)

Ha! Look in a mirror grasshopper...:eek:

[Steve Axford]

Of course. Didn't you read what I quoted?

[Warbler]

I read about half of what you write Steve, but I only find a fraction of that useful because of your repeated attempts to play the man and not the ball. Sorry.:)

[thegrump]

And I think we are all running around in a big circle. Why don't we just wait 30 - 40 years and see what happens. Thankfully I will be dead by then. I hope the earth is good to my children

[Steve Axford]

I read about half of what you write Steve, but I only find a fraction of that useful because of your repeated attempts to play the man and not the ball. Sorry.:)

That's a very odd comment. I think that you would find that book quite informative.

[Warbler]

I think our respective tastes in literature are quite different, but thanks for the tip.

[Steve Axford]

I think, in this case, we agree.

[Circled By Confusion]

Standing for the National Anthem is not about respecting the tune. It's is about respecting your fellow countrymen.

+1

[Kym]

So whose stats do you believe. Dr Bill Warner states that there were 548 Jihads against christian countries over a 1400 year period yet Philip and Axelrod apparently don't see those conflicts as having any religious connotation.

My understanding is that most wars of jihad are classified as political / arabic expansion.

[Cage]

My understanding is that most wars of jihad are classified as political / arabic expansion.

I guess it depends on who is interpreting the agenda for the raids.

If some foreign nation raided an Australian city, took slaves, and raped, pillaged and burnt, I'm pretty sure I'd look at it as an act of war.

[Cage]

Oh dear, I think I've just revisited 1788.

[Warbler]

* removed and consider this a warning. If you post similar again, you will be banned*

[Warbler]

I'm sorry. What was wrong with that post? Happy to discuss here or privately.

[ricktas]

As per my PM, your post was just to get a reaction and you would have known that. Entirety inappropriate referencing the happenings in France right now as a way to get a reaction from members.

[MattNQ]

Might be time to lock the thread. people have had space to express their concerns and individual opinions and I can't see this thread going anywhere other than in circles. Religion, sex, politics...all guaranteed to start arguments....get more than enough of it on Facebook.

So back to photography where there are never any arguments... (did I mention mirrorless is the best way forward..... He he he)

sent from Earth via tapatalk

[Cage]

Yep, this thread has well and truly run it's race and time it was retired.

[ricktas]

agreed. thread closed