Mirrorless camera advice - A6000 vs the rest?

[PaulST]

Hi all,
I'm looking at downsizing from a Canon 70D into a mirrorless camera and from what I can find, the Sony A6000 seems quite good. My requirements are:
- point and shoot photos and video, mostly of buildings/structures, landscapes, machines, aircrafts...etc. from overseas travels. I've also recently been recording a bit of aircraft footage so high quality video is now a must (at least 1080, 50-60fps).
- small. The Sony A6000 is a prefect size but I'm happy to go a bit bigger if recommended.
- price range, up to $1500ish. Again, the A6000 is a fair bit below this but I can't really see any reason why something like a Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark 2 is worth the extra cash.

I look forward to hearing back from you all!

[ricktas]

Hi Paul,

You have been a member here for 12 months and as you are downgrading, we are going to assume you know your way around the 70D and thus have upgraded you to intermediate level. Next up, in that 12 months you have been a member you have asked questions and been given some great answers. So how about starting to return the favour and give some other members some advice, perhaps some CC on their photos? After all, if everyone only came on the site and asked their own questions and did not help others out, the site would be useless.

Now onto your questions.

Firstly why swap from Canon? If there is no specific reason to change brands, why not take a look at the recently released Canon M3 (https://www.canon.com.au/en-AU/Personal/Products/Cameras-and-Accessories/Compact-System-Cameras/EOS-M3)? 24MP, HD video and you can get an EF lens mount adaptor for it, that means your current Canon lenses will work on the new body. The M3 is pre-selling for about $800 so you would still have some left over to get another new lens. Until the end of July it also has a freebie offer from Canon, with an EVF or the EF Lens adaptor included for free (from authorised stockists)

These days there is no real benefit to brand swapping. Every one of the main brands offers such similar specs that no one brand stands out as being the best. Even if a brand releases a camera with a higher MP count or better high ISO image quality, it is only a temporary best player position, cause within months one of the other brands leap frogs over it with something even better. Brand swapping does not equate to better photos.

The Sony is getting good reviews, and if you do want to head that way you will not be disappointed. But I can see benefit in sticking with Canon.

[PaulST]

Hi ricktas, I'd be happy to help except I still know very little about photography. Cars, aircraft and healthcare I'm helpful, but with camera's, I'd be useless. :)
The plan was to get a good camera and get really good at it, but I've ended up chasing other interests so the camera is now mostly to record my experiences (stills and video.) I must admit that I was regretting getting the 70D after a few weeks as it was just so damn large and heavy to carry around. I'd put it in my back-pack, and there wouldn't be much else. :)

Thanks for the suggestion of the M3 as I hadn't heard of it. From a quick read, it doesn't appear to be particularly class leading and the biggest compliment I've heard about it is that it's better than Canon's last mirror-less camera. :)
I have no real connection with any brand so am happy to shop between then.
My current 24-105mm lens is good but way too big so it will be sold shortly. I'm really keen for a camera I can fit into my jacket pocket, which makes the a6000 ideal.

Thanks again!

[ricktas]

Hi ricktas, I'd be happy to help except I still know very little about photography.

But you can still give critique. You do not need to be an expert to have an opinion. So join in.

Have a read of this, then have a go: http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?103809-A-guide-to-giving-Constructive-Criticism-for-Beginners

[bitsnpieces]

Hi all,
I'm looking at downsizing from a Canon 70D into a mirrorless camera and from what I can find, the Sony A6000 seems quite good. My requirements are:
- point and shoot photos and video, mostly of buildings/structures, landscapes, machines, aircrafts...etc. from overseas travels. I've also recently been recording a bit of aircraft footage so high quality video is now a must (at least 1080, 50-60fps).
- small. The Sony A6000 is a prefect size but I'm happy to go a bit bigger if recommended.
- price range, up to $1500ish. Again, the A6000 is a fair bit below this but I can't really see any reason why something like a Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark 2 is worth the extra cash.
I look forward to hearing back from you all!

For what the a6000 provides (APS-C sensor, 24mp, fast AF (though not perfect sometimes but will get you through your requirements), light weight, and the biggest of all, can use just about any lens (possibly including your current Canon lenses) via adapters), I can definitely recommend the a6000 to you.

Yes, there are other amazing brands out there, like the Fuji mirrorless cameras - even Samsung has started to snick into the scene of mirrorless, but the a6000 has a trick up its sleeves, which fits your bill, the 50mbps codec (XAVC-S) makes for beautiful videos.

From what you've put down for your requirements, the a6000 honestly does fit the bill.

However, do note, any camera you buy (DSLR, DSLT, mirrorless, etc), will need a lens. Sony's lenses aren't necessarily limited, just expensive. They just don't have 10 versions of the same lens (exaggerating here). But with adapters, you can use your current lenses, or from other brands.
But here's the key note, the biggest issue is that the autofocus is slow when using adapters. New adapters are coming out, but the issue is mostly resolved in the a7rii camera. Whether the new adapters resolve the issue with the older models (a6000 and a7 series), is something I'm yet to know - still need to find out.
So this is something you need to keep in mind. If you plan on using adapters, just be ready for a possible hit in autofocus speeds. If you plan on using native E mount lenses, then you'll be fine (however, in this sense, the range is limited, since E mount is a new focus, but it's growing, rapidly).

Battery life is an issue as the a6000 uses the smaller battery. One big issue is the sensitivity of the EVF, which can easily be resolved, but nonetheless, depending on your needs and how you shoot, the smaller battery may just be fine. I used to have the a55 which uses the same battery and I'd get anywhere between 300-800 shots depending on what I was doing.

As I had mentioned above regarding the autofocus being fast but not always perfect, Sony's has some funny algorithms in their programming, but, again, from what you've listed for your requirements, I believe it should be sufficient.

Now, let me throw in another option, something I'm planning to upgrade to personally - it's up to you:
If you're willing to go to a slightly bigger size as you mentioned (bigger than the mirrorless cameras, but still smaller than the 70D by a little), the Sony RX10ii (mark 2, not the original) is a very very possible candidate.

It's size will be a little smaller than the 70D, and it's weight (with lens (built-in)) is very similar to the 70D (body only). So, in terms of weight, if you factor in the lenses that you'll have to attach to the 70D body (and their cost), the RX10ii is substantially lighter. In terms of size, again, a little smaller, but that's something you can think about.

The reason why I'd recommend the RX10ii - it's 20MP, so slightly more than the 70D. You get internal 4K recording, and even if that's not an interest, you get beautiful 1080p 50/60fps at all of the different codec qualities. And one big part that I really love is the 24-200mm f2.8 (yes, constant f2.8) lens that you get. The image quality is on par with APS-C sensors, for the most part.

Now, about that, the lens and image quality - the one 'downfall' is that it's only a 1" sensor. So the lens is actually 8.8-73.3mm, but because of crop factor, you're effectively getting 24-200mm. Now, to get a zoom of this range (a typical 70-200mm f2.8) is generally going to cost both money and weight. So again, the lens in itself, due to crop factor... it really is quite worth value for money just on its own. If you need further reach, Sony uses Clear Image Zoom, which is digital zoom but at a higher quality. I've used it, compared it to digital zoom, yes, it's not optical, but for times when you really just want that extra zoom, it gets you through.

Regarding the sensor, again, it is 1", but have a look at it's reviews and image quality, it's quality is formidable with APS-C sensors (and now with the new sensor, one can only expect great things). So again, if you're looking to take happy snaps, memories, I personally don't think you'd be too worried about pixel peeping, would you?

So then comes to the question, why would you 'downgrade' to a mirrorless from the 70D, let alone a bridge camera like the RX10ii?

Again, my recommendation is simply based on what you listed in your requirements. Yes, the 24mm isn't going to be as wide as the usual 18mm we get in kit lenses, but it isn't too bad. If you really most, take a few shots and post process them together. The 200mm is generally the range a lot of enthusiasts use, and at a constant f2.8 for only $1300 (my guess is in Australia it'll be about $1700 or so), it's money well spent (again, a regular DSLR and then to get lenses to fit the range from 18/24-200/250mm f2.8...)

Either way, just throwing it out there. Regarding your choice of the a6000, it's a yes from me, but do elaborate a little more of your needs if you want, and what you plan on doing with your current gear (let alone listing them) then we can really see if the a6000 is the way to go or not.
If the RX10ii strikes an interest, have a look at the RX10 to see what it did to give you an idea of what the RX10ii can do (whilst greatly improved also)



Hi Paul,

You have been a member here for 12 months and as you are downgrading, we are going to assume you know your way around the 70D and thus have upgraded you to intermediate level.

Is it really a downgrade? :P
http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon_EOS_7D-vs-Sony-Alpha-A6000

Phase vs Hybrid detection is arguable, so is optical and electronic viewfinder. Battery life, I admit is definitely a weak point, but depends on the users, and regarding lenses, just like how one brand will catch up and leap over eventually, so will the E mount provide for the needs of its users. :)

I wouldn't say people switching to mirrorless would be a downgrade (unless the DSLR is that much better, or the mirrorless you're switching to is simply bad) because when you consider what mirrorless can do (an in many cases (not all), on par with DSLR or better), really, using any camera is not a downgrade, but a switch of needs. :)

Or did I misunderstand something? :confused013

[ricktas]

Or did I misunderstand something? :confused013

perhaps I should have said downsizing;)

[I @ M]

Paul, for the limited size saving that a new body will give you ( please note the highlighting of body ) you are now faced with the expense of lenses and so on and so forth to mate with said body. If I were you, I would get to know your present gear a lot more until you reach the point where your abilities exceed the capabilities of the camera.


For what the a6000 provides (APS-C sensor, 24mp, fast AF (though not perfect sometimes but will get you through your requirements), light weight, and the biggest of all, can use just about any lens (possibly including your current Canon lenses) via adapters), I can definitely recommend the a6000 to you.

David, yes you are correct that just about any lens can be used on the walkman body but have you done the mathematics of adding an off brand lens and adaptor to the walkman with regard to the weight and size increase? Let alone the point that if you want to use just about any lens it will mean an adaptor to suit each different manufacturer of lenses that you might wish to fit.

[Glen1]

Just my two- bob's worth, but I've recently bought an Olympus OM-D EM-10 with 14-42 EZ lens, and it's a bloody ripper. Fantastic image quality, and easy to use. All for 700 bucks. Can't go wrong.
Regards
Glen1

[bitsnpieces]

David, yes you are correct that just about any lens can be used on the walkman body but have you done the mathematics of adding an off brand lens and adaptor to the walkman with regard to the weight and size increase? Let alone the point that if you want to use just about any lens it will mean an adaptor to suit each different manufacturer of lenses that you might wish to fit.

Not necessarily as there's too much to consider, but I did kind of mention weight and costs of said lenses.
This is also why I mentioned the RX10ii, though I should have mentioned more about size/weight ratios and factors - good call on that.

And a Glen1 suggested, this combination is great, but based off what Paul's requirements are, it looks like video is a factor in purchase, the a6000 is one of the best for his price range.

But definitely an option to consider

[arthurking83]

.....

Again, my recommendation is simply based on what you listed in your requirements. Yes, the 24mm isn't going to be as wide as the usual 18mm we get in kit lenses, but it isn't too bad. ......

Actually it is(or should be).

If the relative comparative factors are taken into account and the 24-200mm equivalent focal length range quoted for the Rx10 is set against the 135 format, then .....

24mm on the Rx10 is a wider FOV than an 18mm lens on a Canon APS-C(as well as the std APS-C format) Canon's APS-C uses a 1.6x multiple factor, whereas the std APS-C format uses 1.5x.

So an APS-C 18mm lens(which is still 18mm in focal length, and not 18mm equivalent!!) then becomes a comparative 29mm(18mm x 1.6) on Canon, and 27mm(18mm x 1.5) all other APS-C formats(Sony, Nikon, Pentax, Samsung, etc)

This is the silly and annoying aspect of this focal length equivalence craziness.

The Rx10 comes with a 24-200mm lens(but is actually an 8mm - 73mm lens), yet all interchangeable lens cameras come with lenses of their actual focal lengths, which the consumer needs to then recalculate into the same 135 format themselves to make it comparable in any useful manner.
As you've shown .. it simply leads to a messy confusion.

ps. I know that you know that the APS-C multiplication factor needed to be taken into account, as you have written(and we've already spoken) about this before.

The point is tho, that they(all the manufacturers) turn this equivalence factor into a debacle:

eg. while the Rx 10 lens may have a 24-200mm equivalent focal length range, the actual aperture(which is the size of the opening into which light enters the lens!!) is certainly not f/2.8 by comparison.
At 200mm, that would make the front of the lens at least 77mm(which it definitely is not!) .. so this notion of it being a 24-200mm f/2.8 lens is silly(to put it mildly!)

I think the actual lens in terms of equivalence is more like 24-200 f/8 or something like that(can't remember exactly, but roughly speaking).

what the actual lens is, is an 8.8-73.3mm f/2.8 .. which means that the entrance pupil of the lens simply needs to be 26mm in diameter
But because of the complexity of creating such a lens type, and of decent quality, the actual diameter of the lens turns out to be 62mm diameter!

[bitsnpieces]

That's a good point which I forgot about.

So, I remember someone comparing the RX10 with a full frame to see what the aperture is, it's about f/4-4.5

So a constant lens of f/4 is still quite good.

However, the question is, is that in regards to the light coming in, or the image output?

The bokeh may equate to an f/4, but in terms of light coming in, given that it's still a big lens, a set opening size, is it technically allowing in f2.8 worth of light in, but resulting in an image of f4?

Either way, back on point, knowing Paul's specific needs and plans will help in the decision making. :)

[arthurking83]

.....

So, I remember someone comparing the RX10 with a full frame to see what the aperture is, it's about f/4-4.5

So a constant lens of f/4 is still quite good......

In terms of overall dof/bokeh/blur .. the relative aperture is about f/8(just under) compared to the same FOV of a fullframe DSLR(135 format).
(DPR have a section in their reviews)

And you're right, trying to explain all the elements of this annoying aspect of 'equivalence' is not part of the scope of this thread, and trying to do so will just create a messy thread.

[PaulST]

I should clarify that while I'd prefer to spend less than $1.5K, I'd be OK with splurging up to around $2K. I'm getting a decent trade-in on my 70D so I should have a bit more extra cash floating around.

Thanks for the replies all. I'll try and respond individually.

For what the a6000 provides (APS-C sensor, 24mp, fast AF (though not perfect sometimes but will get you through your requirements), light weight, and the biggest of all, can use just about any lens (possibly including your current Canon lenses) via adapters), I can definitely recommend the a6000 to you.
I'll be selling my Canon lens as it's too big and heavy. One of the main reasons for the downsize was simply a practical one and the novelty of lumping the 70D+ decent lens was wearing thin. :)
Thanks for the tip about the autofocus and adapters!
From what I hear, the A6000's battery will be average so I'll definitely be purchasing a spare battery to carry around with me. I'll be exploring all day with the camera on for a lot of that time so I don't want to get stuck without power.
The Sony RX10ii looks good although probably a bit bigger and more expensive than what I was thinking. But I'll have a bit of a read about it. I do love the fact that the A6000 would literally fit into my pocket. The arrival date for the RC10ii may be an issue too as I'm off to the USA in late August and I'd like to have had the camera for a week or two just to make sure everything works. But that 200mm zoom is impressive!


So then comes to the question, why would you 'downgrade' to a mirrorless from the 70D, let alone a bridge camera like the RX10ii?
I think of it more as a downsize, than downgrade. Size and weight were the biggest issues wit the 70D, as well as not being able to record 1080 with 50fps (only does 720p and 50fps).


Either way, just throwing it out there. Regarding your choice of the a6000, it's a yes from me, but do elaborate a little more of your needs if you want, and what you plan on doing with your current gear (let alone listing them) then we can really see if the a6000 is the way to go or not.
Most of my footage is of significant sites around the world, and natural beauties. I've just returned from Japan/China so there's a lot of photos of Mt Fuji, Hiroshima, great wall, Yellow mountains...etc. I'm also a bit of a flying enthusiast and have a very amateur youtube channel (becoming less amateur hopefully!) with flight reports, so the subtly of a A6000 vs a large 70D with 24-105 lens around the business class lounge and on board is also a factor. :) Every year or so I'll film some video at air shows (so the 200mm lens on the RC10 looks good, although I note that i can get the A6000 with both a 16-50 and 55-210mm lens for ~$1200) but otherwise my camera probably doesn't get used that much.

Paul, for the limited size saving that a new body will give you ( please note the highlighting of body ) you are now faced with the expense of lenses and so on and so forth to mate with said body. If I were you, I would get to know your present gear a lot more until you reach the point where your abilities exceed the capabilities of the camera.
In all honesty, my ability will never exceed the capabilities of my 70D. I almost always kept it in auto-mode. The size and lack of good video recording are the two biggest issues which can only really be addressed by purchasing new metal. In retrospect, buying the 70D was probably a mistake, but ah well. At least my arms got a work-out carrying it around Africa and Asia. :)

Just my two- bob's worth, but I've recently bought an Olympus OM-D EM-10 with 14-42 EZ lens, and it's a bloody ripper. Fantastic image quality, and easy to use. All for 700 bucks. Can't go wrong.
Thanks. I had a feel of one today at jb hifi and it seems good although I've heard that their video function isn't as good as the others? I'm probably leaning toward filming more video than still photos these days.

Thanks for the comments, all! I must admit I've been lost with the last few posts but that's alright. :)

[bitsnpieces]

Just as a note, if you're planning on having the a6000 on whilst going about, there is an issue with the EVF as it's very sensitive.

The fix is to put some electrical tape over part of the sensor.
http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/a7-evf-sensor-oversensitivity-fix_topic112228.html
This is for the a7, but same idea (the sensor on the a6000 is on the right, rather than the top, and you'll put the strip starting from the bottom)
So first add the strip, then test the distance to activate the EVF, move the strip a little higher, the sensitivity should reduce. Test again for the new distance, and keep doing so until you find the perfect sensitivity that you want, then pop the cap back on.

There's a new problem that a member found:
http://community.sony.com/t5/Alpha-NEX-Cameras/Solution-to-Sony-A6000-battery-drain-even-turned-off/m-p/512298#U512298

If you have the EVF on automatic, for some reason, it still runs even when the camera is off. So when you turn off the camera for the night, change the EVF auto switching to manual, and you're set.

So... More things to consider regarding the a6000...

Extra work aside, the a6000 is very capable nonetheless.

Just to throw in another, if you're looking into 4k, the Panasonic G7 may be an option
Review - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJKRgMPk1BU

Anyways, good luck.

P.S. The 'downgrade' comment was in relation to Rick's comment ;)

[swifty]

Just for some clarity, crop fractor for 1" sensors ala Sony RX10 and the RX100 series is 2.7.
So DOF is similar to f5.6 FF equiv for the RX10 whilst light gathering is still f2.8

- - - Updated - - -

Back on topic.
Most of the subjects that interests you shouldn't be too demanding on the gear except maybe the air shows.
I don't shoot many things in flight but have tried on a hand full of occasions. Anyways you'd need a telephoto of some sorts which starts to bulk up your system unless you opt for a slow-ish telephoto lens.

Just throwing some ideas to consider. Keep the 70D and swap your lens for something air show specific. If you're going specifically to watch and video planes, is a 70D still too cumbersome to take? Anyways, if not maybe someone on this forum with more x-in-flight shooting experience can advice you on an appropriate lens.
For all other occasions get a RX100 mk #, or LX100.

[swifty]

Oops.. where did my maths go. 2.8 X 2.7 is approximately 8, so AK83 was correct in that DOF will be around F8 FF equiv.

[PaulST]

Thanks guys.
Thanks for the tip re: EVF.
I agree that my requirements probably aren't that demanding and I only go to airshows once or twice a year. I'm not remotely interested in getting one of those massive 1000mm lens and tripod that I see other plane spotters trundling around with! :)
From what I can see, Camerahouse have a good deal on an A6000 with both a 16-55mm (seems like a good size for every day use) and a 55-210 (for air shows) for $1200.
http://www.camerahouse.com.au/products/Compact-Pro-Cameras/Sony-A6000-w16-50mm-55-210mm-Lens-Compact-System-Camera.aspx

Yes, the 70D is too cumbersome generally. :) My 35-105 lens is also quite big and heavy, but the camera itself is also quite big.