Another Post about what to charge .....

[ktoopi]

Hi all.....I'm asking this here as I have no idea where to begin with this as I have never been in this position before........

I had an email land in my inbox this morning from the marketing manager of a sail making company asking to see all the photos of a particular boat at the start of the Sydney to Hobart Yacht race. Those who know me know that I photograph this every year as my husband sails in it every year. This is great because I have a substantial number of photos of the boat in question however they want to know how to see the photos (I have not posted them anywhere except a couple here and some on a personal FB page) and they want to know how much for unrestricted use of high resolution files?

I guess my questions are how do I best show them a gallery they can't steal images from and what should I charge/ how do I work out what to charge for unrestricted use of high res files? I am assuming it is for their marketing purposes and am guessing that they made the sails the boat is using.

If there are any togs on here that have the kind of business that sells rights to photos I'd love to here from you. This is just a tad exciting for 'lil' ol' me!

Cheers K

[Steve Axford]

My first comment is - don't be too paranoid about people stealing your photos. It is highly unlikely that someone would ask to buy your photos and then go ahead and steal them. If you use a site like smugmug, you can make galleries private with a password access, but I don't think you can do that with most of the free sites. You could of course, just send then some jpegs so they can see what you have.
I would send them jpegs and ask them what they are prepared to pay and what they want to use them for. That way you can decide if it is acceptable to you and negotiate if you see the need. You can hardly have a standard price if you have never sold any before.

Some more comments on privacy. I post most of my photos as full screen size. I started doing this because I didn't think anyone would buy them anyway. Then, they started too and it just keeps growing. It seems that most people are much more impressed by a high res image, than a tiny, watermarked version that doesn't portray the photo very well. I've now sold to at least 12 different countries, including Nat Geo in 3 European countries and 3 separate magazines in China, and all of this has been generated by good quality images posted on the internet. If I hadn't posted them, I wouldn't have sold anything. If you search on fungi or mushrooms, you will find my images, some of which are "stolen", ie they are not credited to me. I would prefer it if they were, but I am not going to lose any sleep over it, because it really doesn't matter that much. Very few companies who want to use photos will steal them. It isn't worth it, so they will email me and ask a price. I usually ask them to propose a price and we go from there. I usually send them high res versions and maybe some text and the deal is done. It is remarkably easy and allows me to spend most of my time taking photos rather than protecting my patch and negotiating deals.

[ktoopi]

Thank you Steve you have been most helpful. Yes you are probably right about the staeling photos thing ...I was being a bit paranoid.

I reread the email I received and it's the big wigs in Newport Beach California (head office) who have enquired! I didn't realise at first because there is a Newport Beach the next suburb from me so I thought it was local at first as the company does have a local office!!

My problem is that I don't know what would be a fair offer from them if I asked them to propose a price.......I would be happy with anything to be honest as I have never sold photos in this manner before :-)

[Steve Axford]

See what they offer and go from there. Most people are fair, but you will need to judge that yourself. I would suggest that it is more important for you to get a sale that seems fair, rather than getting the maximum possible price and risk getting nothing - particularly as it is your first. I have refused sales, but only when I really didn't like the buyer.

[ktoopi]

Once I have decided it is fair....how do I go about producing some sort of licencing agreement? My research is showing it to be a very complicated document!! I found the perfect thing on Law Tog available for purchase and download but Law tog is American and I haven't found anything Australian as equivalent....

[Steve Axford]

You write an invoice saying (in English, not lawyerese) that they have the rights to use it for the purposes agreed (listed). Copyright remains with you. You don't need a contract, just an invoice.

Make it easy for yourself, and for them.

[ktoopi]

Oh yes that is much more my style than all these lawyerese worded contracts! Thank you for taking the time to help. I am pretty excited about this....:D

[JJM]

The only thing I'd suggest is perhaps watermark the preview images and keep them low res.

$ wise, how much time did/will you spend editing said photos, multiply that by an hourly rate and that should give you a rough starting point. From my little experience with situations like this the business usually has budget/figure in mind anyway and it's probably better to get them to make an offer. You might be surprised.

[ktoopi]

I have sent them an email thanking them for their interest and asking what they intend using the images for and what their budget is. Fingers crossed ....I'll keep you posted as to the out come :)

[Steve Axford]

The only thing I'd suggest is perhaps watermark the preview images and keep them low res.


I disagree about the low res. You are trying to make them really want the images. Show them off! They are very unlikely to steal anything from you.

[JJM]

I disagree about the low res. You are trying to make them really want the images. Show them off! They are very unlikely to steal anything from you.

I have seen so many sports photographers that have had their images used without their permission lately especially on social media......

[Steve Axford]

And the problem with this is ....?
I know it can be irritating, but is it depriving you of income? In this case it is jpegs by email, so how is that likely to get onto social media anyway.

[ktoopi]

ok Guys I have received a reply and they are interested in ' unrestricted commercial rights to edit/use the images for any marketing materials . We would like to be able to use the images for our website , print ads , online media, etc' They then went on to ask me to provide standard rates!!!! Ahhhhhh what are standard rates??? I have no clue other than I went onto Getty Images and went through the process as if to buy rights to an image and 1 image for 1 of the above applications for 1 year costs $1800. I chose a similar image to the ones of mine they like. Now what to do????:eek:

[Steve Axford]

Difficult when they want to be cagey. Ask them again, straight out what they would offer for the rights to use the images. Perhaps mention the Getty price, though I found good images of racing yachts for under $1000 at Getty's and Getty's are expensive.
If they really want to use the images for anything, then a high price is reasonable and they should be willing to pay. If they are willing to pay, say US$5000, then you don't want to accept US$200. On the other hand, you want to keep the whole thing simple and friendly. Both sides should be happy at the end. That way, repeat business is more likely.

[NikonNellie]

Congrats on the offer Karen. I had a Real Estate Development Company approach me for one of my photos last year. I told them I wanted $350 for the use of it unrestricted but they must have been on a tight budget as they never got back to me. :D I figured that they were going to be making some huge profits in the end selling retirement apartments and in the big scheme of things I thought that my price was quite reasonable. I was a little disappointed but on the other hand I did not want to sell myself too short.

I would ask them again for an offer as Steve has suggested and take it from there. If they reply again asking what your standard rates are then reply with a figure that you would be happy to receive - just don't sell yourself too short. :)

[ktoopi]

Thanks Narelle.......I, like you don't want to sell myself short but on the other hand don't want to stuff up this opportunity :eek: These guys are a big company with offices all over the world so you would think they know what they pay for unlimited rights :)

[Mark L]

Perhaps mention the Getty price, though I found good images of racing yachts for under $1000 at Getty's and Getty's are expensive.

Though if they were after just any image they would do that. Seems like they are particularly interested in Karen's for some reason? Does that carry a price premium?

[ktoopi]

They are interested in my photos because the boat that my husband sails on which is the one I photograph the most, uses their brand of sails :) they have asked me for any other photos of any other boats using their sails as well. I'll have to go searching through my hundreds of photos to find any because if I do have them, it be a fluke as I really only take pics of one boat :D

[Steve Axford]

Though if they were after just any image they would do that. Seems like they are particularly interested in Karen's for some reason? Does that carry a price premium?

Getty images sell just any image for premium prices. Of course, most Getty images don't sell at all, but the ones that do make them a lot of money. The photographer, I think, gets half.

[farmmax]

If you are really worried about getting the best possible deal, there is nothing to stop you approaching an agent who specializes in this field and getting them to negotiate for you. Don't know if you can just talk to an agent without putting your hand in your wallet. In most cases, it wouldn't be worth the bother and expense, but if these people seriously want them commercially perhaps I'd at least consider an agent or someone experienced in the area to negotiate on my behalf.

Good luck and hope it works out successfully for you.

[William W]

farmmax gives good advice.

From what you have disclosed I concur with that advice.

If you choose to follow that route, then Suzanne Sease or Frank Meo would be two people you might choose to contact initially for assistance.

Suzanne works under her own company name and Frank's company is 'Photocloser'.

Suzanne is located in Richmond and Frank is based in New York City.

If you can't find them, email me, I am not sure if posting links to businesses is allowed here.

WW

[ktoopi]

Thanks to everyone for all the responses on this thread.....I said I would keep everyone posted as to what came of it all.......To date I have not heard a thing back from them after my last email. It has been a while now (nearly 2 weeks ) so I'm not expecting to hear from them. Ooh well, it was nice to know that someone liked my pics enough to bother enquiring. It would have been courteous I think to still respond to my email even if it was a thanks but no thanks...........

[William W]

I think that it is very likely that there was an element of immediacy for them to acquire an image or images. I expect that what governed that immediacy has now passed and they are concentrating on what is immediate to their purposes, now.

It occurs to me that the initial contact to you was in an opportunistic manner and was not seeking a long term business relationship.

By you keeping your word that you would keep the forum informed apropos developments and outcomes, is one indication that your style of business interaction would be to develop long term relationships.

If the above observations and conclusions are correct in fact, then it would also be likely that any negotiations that might have developed between you two parties, would have caused you frustration.

***

However, whatever one's preferred business style is, one can always re-act with immediacy if one has their skittles in a row. It seems to me that you are now much more equipped to react quickly and with authority when a similar opportunity arises.

WW

[Steve Axford]

Odd that they didn't respond, even if it was with "we were thinking of $20". Good luck with your next opportunity.