Which camera would you recommend?

[bconolly]

Hi Everyone,

After much debate I'm going to move to one of the Oly micro 4/3rd beasties to replace my Nikon kit. I'm finding the overhead of the D600, even with the relatively petite 50mm prime to be a real pain in the neck and so frankly I just don't use it very much at all.

So I was looking for a recommendation as to what you'd recommend. What I shoot is:
1) Mainly the kids, these days they're both really mobile so need a reasonable FPS, but it's more focus speed that's important. Mixture of indoors and the lighting that comes with that but also a heap of outdoor stuff
2) I also take a lot of travel shots, mainly landscapes and wider stuff but all handheld (very rarely crack out the tripod)
3) Weather sealing and being reasonably tough is important as I just want to dump the camera in my bag and go

I'm thinking the 12-40 f2.8 to start with as when I look through my photos >95% fall into that range. What I'm not sure about is whether to:
a) Go the EM-1 which probably for my hands (larger) seems a good fit. The test I did with that seemed comfy and the grip would only help. But it is larger than I'd ideally like
b) Go the EM-5 Mark II (Mark II over Mark I mainly because of the purported AF improvements). Mark I was also comfy enough to not cause any angst (although defo a different feel in the hand)

Open to other suggestions / thoughts and all comments gratefully received!

Brenden

[ricktas]

How much do you have invested in Nikon? If you wait a bit you will likely find the rumoured full-frame Nikon mirrorless will be released. If you have no reason to update soon, hang around for a bit and see if it eventuates:

http://www.thephoblographer.com/2014/12/16/reports-hint-nikon-full-frame-mirrorless-camera/#.VRPesOHQAnI

But if you do want to go to the Oly, the Em-1 would be a good choice. Olympus RAW files have always been quite visually appealing straight out of camera, their RAW processing engine must be optimised to bring out the best in their sensors.

[davsv1]

I think the EM1 is a "better" camera, it should be as it is their "pro" model, EM5 is 2nd tier but is newer technology. IF you are into video go with the EM5, if not either or, if your a lens collector and might pickup some older 4/3rds glass ( it is bigger and heavier though) go with EM1, it has phase detect AF on sensor. Both are weather proof freeze proof and very well built magnesium alloy bodies. There are plenty of reviews online to read but ultimately it should come down to ergonomics/fit in your hand. And I would def get the grip just for the extra battery onboard, battery life is not great, 4-6 hours of use. Oh and the EM1 has a panasonic sensor the EM5 has a sony sensor if that matters to you. The other thing I miss on the EM1 is the twist and flip lcd panel, it has a tilt screen only, EM511 has twist & flip.

[bconolly]

Thanks Rick. Regarding Nikon I'm a fair amount invested. My only hesitation with the Nikon offering should it eventuate is much like Sony. By the time you add the lens on size / weight wise it's actually not that much of an advantage?


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[Elly]

I've just come in from an evening launch of the E-M5 Mark II .. nice camera. After speaking to the Olympus people, really the only reason you would go the E-M5 over the E-M1 is for the movie camera function. It is amazing, in what it can do. But if you're wanting really just for stills ... they are saying the E-M1 is superior.

Now .. I am far from an expert, just going from what was said. I have the E-M10 which I'm very pleased with thus far .. but I'm a novice at best. But that was what I got from the evening.

[bconolly]

Thanks Davsv1 very helpful info. Videos not important so no worries there. I'm used to good old Nikon fixed screens so even tilt would be a huge improvement! Grip is a good idea. I'm certain one of the things I will feel is the battery life impact (in that it'll be lower). Do you see the sensor as a concern / benefit either way?


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[bconolly]

Thanks Elly that's very helpful as stills are the focus. How do you find the E-M10? Seems a very nice camera from what I've read


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[Elly]

I am loving the E-M10. It is a great little camera and though I'm very new to using an DSLR as it is intended, I've not come across anything I can't do that other cameras are doing. What I love most about this range is their size. They are so small/compact, yet fully functioning ... from what I can tell. Very happy with my purchase.

[davsv1]

Thanks Davsv1 very helpful info. Videos not important so no worries there. I'm used to good old Nikon fixed screens so even tilt would be a huge improvement! Grip is a good idea. I'm certain one of the things I will feel is the battery life impact (in that it'll be lower). Do you see the sensor as a concern / benefit either way?


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If your are pixel peeper the sony sensor is generally considered better in low light/ noise but if your not either is fine, as a wee test I did some 125000 iso shots a week or two back and while a little noisy on screen once printed at 480mmX360mm they were quite acceptable for what they were, it was shot in a dark room f6.7 @1/10 ss hand held with a 75 1.8 lens. If your in southside of Brisbane your welcome to come to my work and have a look at the prints.
As far as the battery goes they are smaller and lighter than DSLR batteries to keep the weight down so of course the life is not as good, just carry a couple of spares and your good for a whole day.

another big advantage of the EM1 is they are going for less $$$ than they were, you can pick up quite a bargain these days. their life cycle is due for replacement about September next year, just going by Olympus' previous release times.

[swifty]

I think it comes down to the fit for your hands. If you need the extra grip on the E-M5 (mk 1 or 2), then you may as well get the E-M1 instead.
Mk II for the improved AF algorithm but IMO, the biggest improvement is the IBIS. It was already quite good on the Mk I, improved on the E-M1, and improved again on the Mk II.
I'm a Mk I owner myself. Depending on prices, the 12-40 kit is quite cheap with the Mk I. At one stage over X'mas it was under $1000 but back up to around $1150. If prices fall below $1000 again I would be tempted just to get the Mk I 12-40 kit.

[bconolly]

Thanks swifty. I have to admit that the mk1 is indeed a tempting option. It'll depend a bit on what I get for my Nikon kit, but if it all goes a bit pear shaped the mk1 would be ok to start with I reckon.


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[swifty]

The Mk I's still a nice camera but just be aware that it was the first in the OMD series and IMO suffered from a few design issues that the latter models refined upon.
But since you're interested in the 12-40 (which goes for about $850 on its own), the Mk I elite kit seems good value.
Actually I'd consider buying it myself if the prices drop below $1000 again since I need a replacement for my 12-50kit zoom and a second body would be nice for me with the 12-40 on one and the 75/1.8 on the other.

[Ross the fiddler]

I have both the E-M5 (original) & E-M1. Unfortunately I don't have the 12-40 lens to go with it (I'm still using the 4/3's 14-54 II lens instead or else the M4/3's 12-50), but there are good deals around for the E-M1 & 12-40 kit with one place (http://www.cambuy.com.au/olympus-om-d-e-m1-pro-kit-with-12-40mm-lens-silver/) selling it for $1699 & I'm sure they aren't the only seller with a good price. While the E-M5 was a lovely camera you would find the E-M1 so much better with more direct controls, larger EVF etc, but more importantly is more responsive with a larger buffer. The benefit of WiFi & tethering with Olympus Capture might also be useful on occasions. The improved C-AF might also be useful to you as it has been proving to be quite effective with the latest firmware 3.0 now. To me it sounds like the 12-40 lens should cover most of your requirements by your description. For something a little longer, without going for the larger 40-150 Pro lens, there is always the very sharp 75mm prime.

[bitsnpieces]

If you're thinking of leaning towards the EM-1, depending on your budget, the EM-5ii might be worth considering - it's improved.

But here's a video comparing the Panasonic GH4, Sony a6000, Olympus EM-1, and Fujifilm XT-1 - well worth the watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up8K_xd_iwU

Aside being a Sony lover, I personally would recommend the a6000 as it performs great, based on the test, and is a lot cheaper than the GH4.
One great thing about the alpha series is that with some adapters, if you really want to, you can still use your current Nikon glass, so it doesn't all go to waste - just make sure you have an updated model of the adapters to ensure full support for your Nikon lenses.

[Ross the fiddler]

If you're thinking of leaning towards the EM-1, depending on your budget, the EM-5ii might be worth considering - it's improved.

But here's a video comparing the Panasonic GH4, Sony a6000, Olympus EM-1, and Fujifilm XT-1 - well worth the watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up8K_xd_iwU

Aside being a Sony lover, I personally would recommend the a6000 as it performs great, based on the test, and is a lot cheaper than the GH4.
One great thing about the alpha series is that with some adapters, if you really want to, you can still use your current Nikon glass, so it doesn't all go to waste - just make sure you have an updated model of the adapters to ensure full support for your Nikon lenses.

I think the OP wants to go lighter, so the other options using the larger lenses wouldn't exactly help there. The E-M5 II is improved by means of the added electronic shutter, but for his uses not much advantage as far I would think, for video, yes it is improved but for focussing, the on sensor PD-AF pixels in the E-M1 makes it the better camera as it is the Pro model after all.

[bconolly]

Thanks Ross and bitsnpieces. Definitely leaning towards the EM-1 now and that is a great price Ross. You're also spot on re the weight. Thanks to bitsnpieces for the info, but the weight/ size is critical. Sony kit is nice but their native lenses are also largish compared to the Olympus kit.

Thanks also to Ross and Swifty for the 75 1.8 mention. That will work nicely until I can save up for the 40-150 (if I ever need it). 75 should do 90+ percent of what I need!


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[aland]

I own an em-1. I came at it from the other way, starting in 2007 with a tiny compact, then up to a compact with manual controls (XZ-1), and now the EM-1. I am also mostly using my camera for family including very mobile 4 and 7 year olds! I bought mine with the 12-40 pro lens and have since added the 14-150 (before the second version was announced...) for use when I think I'm going to need the extra telephoto. I'm no photography expert but have got very satisfactory results with shooting bursts with both tracking and continuous AF. I've done this for my 7 year old mountain biking among other things. The AF is better for the 12-40 lens. I find it pretty portable. Have carried it around my neck when bushwalking in the blue mountains and had no problems with it. Battery life is relatively short, but I just carry a spare battery and that's enough for me. One of the key criteria for me when I upgraded was faster and more accurate AF, and I'm happy with what I'm getting from the EM-1.

[bconolly]

Thanks Alan, good feedback particularly in the c-af front!

Brenden


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[bconolly]

Hi everyone, just wanted to say thanks again to everyone who contributed to this thread. Sold my Nikon gear and picked up the EM-1 pro kit this week. Very, very happy with it so far. Reminds me very much of my old and much loved D7000 in terms of dynamic range and noise characteristics in a much lighter and smaller package.

Looking forward to testing it out seriously in the coming weeks!

Brenden

[Ross the fiddler]

Hi everyone, just wanted to say thanks again to everyone who contributed to this thread. Sold my Nikon gear and picked up the EM-1 pro kit this week. Very, very happy with it so far. Reminds me very much of my old and much loved D7000 in terms of dynamic range and noise characteristics in a much lighter and smaller package.

Looking forward to testing it out seriously in the coming weeks!

Brenden

That sounds like excellent news. I assume you will be (registering it &) applying for the free HLD-7 grip on offer till the end of the month then?

[bconolly]

Hi Ross, yes indeed. Hoping the extra battery arrives before our trip to Hawaii in early July.


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[Nick Cliff]

Look forward to seeing your EM-1 photos one day Brendan, and enjoy.

[bconolly]

Thanks Nick - couple of quick snaps from today posted up here: http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?139864-Kids-at-the-park-(and-testing-out-the-new-OMD-EM-1)

[Bromo]

How are you enjoying your EM1? There are a ton of features on the camera and, if the rumors are true, the camera is set to receive more firmware updates (already up to 3.1).

[Ross the fiddler]

How are you enjoying your EM1? There are a ton of features on the camera and, if the rumors are true, the camera is set to receive more firmware updates (already up to 3.1).

I think we may see more in September somehow. That is when the 2 year contract on the Panasonic sensor (with limited use) is supposed to finish (according to Simon) where we might see other video frame rates like the E-M5 II & hopefully some other sweeteners to keep it a desirable camera on the market up till September 2016 when Olympus is likely to bring the E-M1 Mk II. I'm happy with what they bring in the FW updates, but can't say I use all the features that have been added though.

One thing I would like to see is an option to use Contrast Detect AF for 4/3's lenses on the E-M1 if desired as there are circumstances where (with the 14-54 II lens) PD-AF on the E-M1 it will hunt (because of horizontal only on sensor PD-AF sensing) whereas it can cope better on the E-M5 that only uses CD-AF, albeit slower. I've sent a Firmware Update Request in to Olympus (Aust) in that regard & if others would like that, then I would suggest contacting Olympus with a similar request & just maybe they might add that into the firmware in the future (hopefully sooner rather than later or not at all). I should have been requesting this last year (when I first got my E-M1) & encouraging others with 4/3's lenses to do the same, but we shall see...

[bconolly]

How are you enjoying your EM1? There are a ton of features on the camera and, if the rumors are true, the camera is set to receive more firmware updates (already up to 3.1).

Hi Bromo,

Excellent so far. Image quality is great, IBIS is amazing and loving the portability. It fits in my baby bag along with snacks and the usual days worth of gear which was one of the pre reqs. Single AF is as fast as my D610 and as accurate in all like conditions that I've tested. Haven't gotten into C-AF much but expect that to be fair. Battery life has surprised me so far. Love the EVF and frankly would be very reluctant to go back to an OVF. Also the quiet shutter is brilliant.

Firmware updates are great to see. Looking forward to the rumoured 4K video update and perhaps another C-AF update as well.

Overall I'm thrilled. To be honest, best camera I've purchased for my needs since my Minolta Film SLR 20 years ago!

Thanks for checking in!

Brenden

[Ross the fiddler]

Hi Bromo,

Excellent so far. Image quality is great, IBIS is amazing and loving the portability. It fits in my baby bag along with snacks and the usual days worth of gear which was one of the pre reqs. Single AF is as fast as my D610 and as accurate in all like conditions that I've tested. Haven't gotten into C-AF much but expect that to be fair. Battery life has surprised me so far. Love the EVF and frankly would be very reluctant to go back to an OVF. Also the quiet shutter is brilliant.

Firmware updates are great to see. Looking forward to the rumoured 4K video update and perhaps another C-AF update as well.

Overall I'm thrilled. To be honest, best camera I've purchased for my needs since my Minolta Film SLR 20 years ago!

Thanks for checking in!

Brenden

Brendon, I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting for 4K video on the E-M1 as I highly doubt that it will come by FW update (but I have been known to be wrong before) but it should come on the E-M1 Mk II next year (or I'd be very surprised if it didn't). The E-M1 would have to be the best camera I've had too & I do love it. I'd be interested to know how you get on with C-AF. Using C-AF with High sequential drive is the most effective, but what you see is a review between each frame, so that needs to be considered for moving subjects so that you are aiming ahead of the subject , whereas C-AF Lo uses preview between frames instead. I hope you continue to enjoy it with all that it has to offer.

[bconolly]

Hi Ross,

Yeah I also think it's unlikely if the new model's looking like late 2016. I guess though if that's deferred for any reason we might be in with a shot :D

I thought this was interesting (how true it is remains to be seen):
http://www.43rumors.com/e-m1-will-get-further-firmware-updates-to-make-it-remain-the-top-model-over-the-e-m5ii/

Personally 4K isn't a major deal, but hey, if I can pick it up "for free" I'll take it :lol:

Brenden

- - - Updated - - -

Oh another thing I forgot to mention was that it only took about a week for the redeemable battery and grip to arrive which I thought was pretty quick turn around!

[Ross the fiddler]

Hi Ross,

Yeah I also think it's unlikely if the new model's looking like late 2016. I guess though if that's deferred for any reason we might be in with a shot :D

I thought this was interesting (how true it is remains to be seen):
http://www.43rumors.com/e-m1-will-get-further-firmware-updates-to-make-it-remain-the-top-model-over-the-e-m5ii/

Personally 4K isn't a major deal, but hey, if I can pick it up "for free" I'll take it :lol:

Brenden

- - - Updated - - -

Oh another thing I forgot to mention was that it only took about a week for the redeemable battery and grip to arrive which I thought was pretty quick turn around!

I'm happy to take whatever they offer for free too. :dollareyes: BTW, Simon might be the leaker, but O gives genuine hints (without saying too much).

It sounds like a nice quick supply of the grip. That doesn't sound like they were over run with orders perhaps (says the pessimist side of me), but it was good you got it so quick though.

Cheers, Ross
:food04:

[bconolly]

I'm happy to take whatever they offer for free too. :dollareyes: BTW, Simon might be the leaker, but O gives genuine hints (without saying too much).

Ah ok - that's good to know.


It sounds like a nice quick supply of the grip. That doesn't sound like they were over run with orders perhaps (says the pessimist side of me), but it was good you got it so quick though.

Cheers, Ross
:food04:

I think the counter indicated 124 claimed by the time I submitted mine which was more than I thought and less than I'd hoped ;-)

[Ross the fiddler]

Ah ok - that's good to know.



I think the counter indicated 124 claimed by the time I submitted mine which was more than I thought and less than I'd hoped ;-)

Thanks Brenden. I remember the long wait I had for my E-M5 (middle of 2012) & then the wait for the bonus MMF-3 adapter (I used it for the ZD70-300 & ZD14-54 II lenses with it then & MF for the Sigma 150mm macro lens), but that was understandable with the first of the new & somewhat improved line of cameras with the greatly improved sensor from Sony & the first M4/3's model with the EVF built in. There was no way I was going to go for a PEN (& with essentially the same sensor as my E-30 DSLR) where I couldn't use the EVF & mounted flash at the same time so there was a big queue for that ground breaking model then. When the E-M1 came out I wanted it for my 4/3's lenses as well as all the other attractive features it had to offer & also put in a (unpaid) pre-order but I was notified it was in stock just after the Springwood fire started (in October that took out so many houses then) & I had my bags packed in case we needed to run, so I didn't take it then but then after the fires were out & close to Christmas Olympus brought out the Stylus 1 (with a constant f2.8 10.7 X zoom lens) so I ended up getting that for Christmas & glad I did because it has been such a great take anywhere camera with full advanced features. It was in (the end of) May last year (2014) that Olympus then had the $300 Cash Back till the end of June, plus the price had come down too, so I just had to have my E-M1 then. :nod: :D

[arthurking83]

....

Firmware updates are great to see. Looking forward to the rumoured 4K video update and perhaps another C-AF update as well. ....

From my(albeit limited) understanding of the rumours around these cameras .. the next iteration of this camera(ie. the EM-1 II(??)) model may have 4K video.

video is handled by another chip in the processing pipeline.
That is, while you can tweak some video settings .. a wholesale tweak like a format change is not possible.
The chip encodes the video in a a kind of hardware manner. That is, the chip can do specific pixel numbers(ie. HD or 4K or whatever) specific frame rates .. 30fps, 60fps, 120fps etc, and specific format output types.

If the chip was capable of 4K .. you'd have thought it would have been implemented from day one.

They could provide bit rate updates(say if the bit rate was set to a lowly 20Mb/s they could do say 50Mb/s or more.
This does allow slightly higher quality video capture, but it could be questionable as to whether most users would see a benefit to this.

So like Ross said .. even tho firmware updates(with actual substance!!) are great .. don't hold your breath for 4K video.

Most manufacturers are due to start a massive round of one upmanship over the coming months, Olympics are on next year. So they need to have a new king in their lineup.
Olympus is no different to Canon and Nikon, and they all just want their version of the new model to outdo the other models.
I think this is what/where the 4K rumour is centred around.

[bconolly]

Hi Arthur,

Yep agree. I suspect the most likely update will be to 60p up from the current 30p. Codec bit rate is 24Mbit's so there's (logically) room to move. Arguably I'm not sure that 4K would've / should've been on their roadmap as the camera was released October '13 with 4K sets really only affordable (and as a result really talked about in the mainstream media) mid 2014. Yep, get that YouTube etc were all up in everyone's grill prior (but that was from 2010), but it's when it goes mass market that people get interested.

It will be interesting to see what next year brings!

Thanks for the thoughts!

Brenden

[arthurking83]

Hi Arthur,

Yep agree. I suspect the most likely update will be to 60p up from the current 30p. Codec bit rate is 24Mbit's so there's (logically) room to move. ....

Even this could be physically impossible.(I dunno, just speculating going on some info I've gained on the Nikonhacker forums).

Again, the frame rate can be fixed within the chip doing the video processing.
On most(if not all .. I can't remember) Nikon cameras, there is a chip that does the video processing. I assume that other camera manufacturers follow similar principles.

So what happens(from what I've gathered) is that the camera has a XYZ model chip to encode the data steam that the sensor sees.
This chip does all the encoding, and it's basically set. That is, the pixel size it outputs and the frame rates it can produce.

say for example, this chip can do 29/30fps .. this is 'hardwired' into the chip. To achieve 60fps(in real time) the chip needs to be replaced, or some form of video interpolation needs to be done possibly by another processor, but in doing that(if possible) .. its only going to be a pseudo 60fps, where they may double up on each frame at 30fps and reprocess this into a 60fps output .. or something like that.
This is almost certainly unlikely to happen tho.

But in many instances where Nikonhacker have provided info on this topic, there is simply no way to hack the firmware to produce a 60fps video rate, as the chip is hardwired to be limited to only 30fps.
This is true if the manufacturer hasn't deliberately limited the capability of the hardware.

eg. if the manufacturer has used a chip that is 60fps capable .. or 4K capable, for arguments sake, to maximise profits they deliberately limit the capability of lower end models, to increase the increased price justification of models just above the lower end models.
Canon have done this(Nikon do it too!) .. and because Canon have done it to their model line up, the Magic Lantern group have taken advantage of this deliberate downspeccing of lower end Canon cameras, and provided a firmware that unleashes the hardware's actual potential!
But you still don't see 4K video from Magic Lantern on Canon cameras .. simply because the hardware required isn't there.
I'm not overly knowledgeable on Canon or MagicLantern, but from my understanding, I don't think that they do 60fps(if the hardware is limited to only 30fps).

So I'm fairly sure that if Olympus had implemented a video encoder on this camera that was 4K capable, they'd have jumped onto the 4K bandwagon sooner rather than leave it this late into the camera's life cycle.

Almost certain that 4K will be a feature of any new model EM-1 that transpires in the short term future .. 4K video is the new feature to have in terms of marketing!
How many folks will use it tho remains to be seen. 4K video capture requires a lot of data to be processed .. and hence stored too.
HD video at 30fps is bloody hard to store as it is .. I can't imagine how many terabytes of card space 4K or 60fps(with any reasonable quality) for each brief moment of video capture! :p

[Ross the fiddler]

In case you haven't seen these before, the Panasonic sensor Functions specs (at the bottom of the PDF chart) for the MN34230PL sensor that's in the E-M1 (& GH4) are:-

Full scan mode (No mixture, No decimation)
Monitor (Live View) mode : 120fps
HD movie mode
1080/60p (4pixel mixture)
720/60p (9pixel mixture)
High speed mode
240fps / 481fps
Full scan, Any size cropping
4k2k movie mode (30fps)
And the whole PDF can be found here http://www.semicon.panasonic.co.jp/ds8/c2/FLY000036_EN.pdf

If you want to know how it's known (or assumed) that the above sensor is in the E-M1 then look here. http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/02/10/olympus-om-d-em-1-sensor-is-made-by-panasonic-not-sony

[bconolly]

Thanks Ross. Was looking for that info and couldn't find it!