Allianz Car Insurance

[bitsnpieces]

Ok, just one simple question:

My aunty has full comprehensive, my brother uses her car, he is included in her policy

My brother turns on car, lets it warm up and quickly runs inside to grab something, comes out, car's gone

Police find it, car has been ruined by thief, and car is towed back

Allianz says they won't cover anything because it was my brother's fault for negligence or something - leavings keys in car

So they won't cover for towing costs, or any costs to repair, so I want to know, is this nornal?

Never used full comprehensive before, and don't know if this is generally the way it is, or an Allianz thing, or they just don't want to help.

Thank you

[I @ M]

Did the police also book him for leaving an unlocked vehicle unattended?

They could have ----

Sounds pretty much standard for insurance company policies --- have they / you read the policy thoroughly?
The first thing that an insurance company looks for is an excuse not to pay, conveniently it would seem for them in this case they have probably identified "negligent use" of the car as being a reason to not pay.

[bitsnpieces]

Not sure if my brother did or not, but I think he did after this incident

Luckily the police didn't book him

But still sucks now, a thrashed car waiting to get picked up... Towed from Dandenong I believe, back to Brooklyn... Oh well

Thank you very Andrew

[ameerat42]

I would say so. One fine day (35 yrs ago) I got booked for being 5 metres away from running car with handbrake on and in Park gear as it had a dodgy battery
at the time. (OK, I was in a shop getting some "fast food":o:o:o). The policeman was pretty understanding, but I just said OK and agreed it was 1) S:olly, and 2) against
the law (I think, "not having control of a running vehicle"). He was pretty lenient and gave me a lesser fine.

As for insurance, well I think they could refuse that, but try an industry ombudsman. Call first and describe the matter. A bit harsh to treat the car that way, though,
when I would think they could have told you. Anyway, their insurance ads are SO ABSOLUTELY STYOOPID you'd have to be mad to be with them.

Am.

[bitsnpieces]

Well, I think my mum's given up on it, not bothered fighting for it - live and learn.

So they're cancelling the policy for the car now since, it's pretty much gone, and paying the towing fine (which has been weeks now trying to deal with Allianz, so the towing cost has shot right up...), and don't know, probably see if it can be sold for parts some how at those yards? :confused013

[ameerat42]

Like I said, run it past the Ins Industry ombudsman (find - he may be combined with some other). Oh, CERTAINLY cancel the insurance, and get BACK some of the unused premium.

[bitsnpieces]

So then I'm supposed to run it by the Ins Industry Ombudsman first, then if nothing work out, cancel? Or start cancelling while talking to the Ombudsman? o.O

Also, I tried a search, now sure what this Industry Ombudsman is, never heard of it before lol

This is what I've found: But no idea where car fits into - maybe I just missed it: http://www.australia.gov.au/topics/law-and-justice/complaints

http://www.fos.org.au/

[ameerat42]

The link that I found is for NSW (presumably your rels are here) Fair Trading: http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/ftw/Consumers/Buying_services/Insurance.page

OK, I thought an ombudsman handled it. Call them and discuss. Decide from there. There is a fee, but I've forgotten how much, if
you make a case out of it.

[mpb]

Most of the policies I have had state that the vehicle should not be left unlocked when unattended, let along with the keys in it.

As suggested above check the wording, it probably says something like:-

"6. Prevention of loss or damage
We may not pay your claim if you do not take all
reasonable precautions to prevent injury, loss or
damage, including securing your vehicle against
unauthorised entry when it is unattended. This
includes removing your keys and locking the vehicle
and ensuring all security and tracking devices are
active and maintained. It is a condition of this policy
that your vehicle be kept in good repair."

[ameerat42]

Yes, David. I just thought of something else: since (I understand) the police had it towed and (indirectly) caused the damage,
you could try the NSW State Ombudsman. No harm in trying.

Cancel when you're satisfied there's nothing else that can be done with the Ins Co. Make sure you ask for the amount of
unused premium. For instance, I'm getting back the princely sum of $34 because I sold a car 6 weeks before the humble
TPPDO insurance ran out. You might be entitled to ?100s. Oh, and they told me that. I didn't know and I just called about
another policy I had with them (NOT!! Allianz!)

[bitsnpieces]

Thank you everyone for your help.

Will look into it.

I doubt much will progress though, and my mum couldn't care less anymore now lol

Guess we'll be more careful in the future

[arthurking83]

If the car was on private property or something, with gates disallowing access to the vehicle .. or something like that .. I'd argue the point.
If access to the car was freely and easily available, even tho it's on private property I wouldn't bother.

Insurance companies will fight tooth and nail to get out of paying up.

A long shot would be to try to find the thieves and recover some compensation. Although it'd probably cost more in legal fees than the amount recovered.


I have to say tho, this would be standard practice no matter the company involved.
I switched to Allianz after seeing some extremely high customer service levels, via my father's and then my sister's dealing with them .. and then my father's again .. and again, and again :p

[155581]

Have you tried talking to your local council about it? It really comes down to whether or not you want to make enough fuss about it, if you really need the money, you're bound to get somewhere if you get up in people's faces about it.

[Mark L]

If the car was on private property or something, with gates disallowing access to the vehicle .. or something like that .. I'd argue the point.


Was thinking along those lines as well.

[ricktas]

Have you tried talking to your local council about it? It really comes down to whether or not you want to make enough fuss about it, if you really need the money, you're bound to get somewhere if you get up in people's faces about it.

I am not sure a local council would be interested in a car insurance matter. It is a civil matter that the council is not a party to, and surely something they would not want to become involved in.

[bricat]

First of all don't cancel the policy. Then contact the ombudsman. People make mistakes every day and this was just one of them. The car wasn't left like that day in day out. Contact the insurance company and tell them you are going to the ombudsman. Don't listen to any crap they tell you about you won't win etc etc etc. Work out a settlement amount yourself and tell them you want this much. Don't take no for an answer. I know this from personal experience. Car stolen, some technical issue, refused claim. After ombudsman nearly $10.000.00 payout. I repeat don't take no for an answer. cheers brian

[ameerat42]

Actually, it would appear that it's Fair Trading, not the ombudsman - UNLESS - you want to complain about the police action.
If you start out unfocused they will have you over a barrel - the ins co, that is.

[MissionMan]

The challenge in this case may be a specific policy exclusion which refers to theft and leaving the keys in the car. This is common practice.

I know there is a case on at the moment with Audi where a number of people had their cars stolen because they left the emergency key in the cubbyhole and werent notified about the location of emergency key by the car dealer. Now there is currently a group of people suing Audi because the insurance company has repudiated the claims. Apparently a set of thieves went on the spree targeting Audi's specifically to see if the keys were in the cubbyhole

[KevPride]

What the OP should do if the Policy Holder is not happy with the outcome of his Aunts?? Mothers?? claim is to contact the Insurer to speak with their Complaints Officer and have claim escalated if so needed - Allianz are members of the ICA and comply with General Insurance Code of Practice.

My personal opinion however is that Allianz have acted as they should when a Policy Holder has clearly breached his/her duty of care by leaving the keys in the car whilst unattended. I am sorry for the persons loss, but a good lesson learnt.

Kevin

[Bennymiata]

I feel for your aunt and brother, but imagine if insurance companies paid out when you left your car unlocked with the keys in the ignition?

If the insurance value was higher than you could get by selling it, a lot of people would be leaving their cars unlocked etc., and we'd be paying through the nose for insurance.

[Hamster]

People make mistakes every day and this was just one of them.
They do, and they also need to take responsibility for those mistakes.
While I feel for the OPs relatives, it's their mistake and unless they had specific "Insurance against leaving a running car unattended because I'm a bit of a scatterbrain like that" insurance, it's not Allianz's job to pick up the tab.
There are lots of exclusions in PDSs and people need to get familiar with them to ensure they know where they stand.
It's sounds like the OPs relatives are taking the right approach, this really is just an expensive, live and learn, take responsibility for your cock up and move on situation.

[bricat]

I would suggest that many many many insurance claims are the result of peoples lack of attention or even deliberate breaches of insurance company policies. Most "accidents" are caused by one driver doing the wrong thing; ie braking the law. Red lights, speeding, texting, not paying due care and attention etc etc. And the insurance companies pay out on these claims. We are all human and subject to our own flaws. Why I have even heard of parents leaving their babies in the car whilst they pop inside for a minute. Make your claim and don't take no for answer. The insurance companies have plenty of money and yes we all do pay a little more.
As a side note I see there is an add on tv for car insurance where they are going to insure only the safe drivers. Hahaha. We good drivers don't need insurance. cheers Brian
PS As soon as we have a major disaster, flood, cyclone insurance companies put up their premiums. This could occur in Australia or overseas. So we policy holders all pay even if it had nothing to do with us. Don't feel sorry for insurance companies.
PPS I do have insurance for many things so I am not anti insurance companies just in case you got that impression.

[davsv1]

I would suggest that many many many insurance claims are the result of peoples lack of attention or even deliberate breaches of insurance company policies. Most "accidents" are caused by one driver doing the wrong thing; ie braking the law. Red lights, speeding, texting, not paying due care and attention etc etc. And the insurance companies pay out on these claims.
PPS I do have insurance for many things so I am not anti insurance companies just in case you got that impression.
Most insurance companies can refuse to pay if you contribute to the claim by breaking the law ( d u i ) for example having an unroadworthy car ( bald tyre ) that contributes to the accident. They will pay the other person/ "innocent party" costs but not the "at fault" person, however if you are drunk and get hit by a red light runner ( for e.g. ) your insurance will still cover you because you were ( arguably ) not at fault even though you were breaking the law by driving whilst under the influence, they will pursue costs from the other insurance company.
Try forgetting to lock your house or close a window and see if your insurance covers you for burglary
I just had this conversation with my insurance agent recently.
Insurance is a very gray area subject to interpretations and ambiguous wording and that is why I pay an agent!

[ameerat42]

Just and aside talking about "accidents". Better to call them collisions, or incidents. An accident would be getting struck
by a meteorite :eek: or the like. Almost anything else that happens on the road is due to someone's fault. (Even if it's bad
maintenance due to someone else. That just exonerates the driver.)

[Hamster]

I would suggest that many many many insurance claims are the result of peoples lack of attention or even deliberate breaches of insurance company policies. Most "accidents" are caused by one driver doing the wrong thing; ie braking the law. Red lights, speeding, texting, not paying due care and attention etc etc. And the insurance companies pay out on these claims. We are all human and subject to our own flaws. Why I have even heard of parents leaving their babies in the car whilst they pop inside for a minute. Make your claim and don't take no for answer. The insurance companies have plenty of money and yes we all do pay a little more.
As a side note I see there is an add on tv for car insurance where they are going to insure only the safe drivers. Hahaha. We good drivers don't need insurance. cheers Brian
PS As soon as we have a major disaster, flood, cyclone insurance companies put up their premiums. This could occur in Australia or overseas. So we policy holders all pay even if it had nothing to do with us. Don't feel sorry for insurance companies.
PPS I do have insurance for many things so I am not anti insurance companies just in case you got that impression.

Oh believe me, I don't feel sorry for insurance companies, I have a very dim view of them. Hence my advice to know your PDS because that way you know your enemy. An insurance company will find any way to reduce its liability in the event of a claim, that is the business it is in. Of course their premiums go up after an event where they've had to pay out money, they're not charities. Your other examples of accidents may or may not be covered by the insurance and, as others have said, may be subject to some reduction in total pay out depending on how blame is apportioned. But that's irrelevant in this discussion because this is about someone leaving a running car unattended. Allianz cover this in their PDS by the statement


Prevention of loss or damage
We may not pay your claim if you do not take allreasonable precautions to prevent injury, loss ordamage, including securing your vehicle againstunauthorised entry when it is unattended. Thisincludes removing your keys and locking the vehicleand ensuring all security and tracking devices areactive and maintained. It is a condition of this policythat your vehicle be kept in good repair.





Leaving a running car unattended is not taking all precautions and if the person who did it manages to persuade Allianz to pay up then I'd be very surprised (and the first to cheer), but good luck to them because lets face it, it was a dumb move. The simple fact is the person messed up and if they get nothing they should take the responsibility and, as I said, it seems like this is what has happened, which is a refreshing change in a society where everyone is always looking to find someone else to blame for their mistakes and give them the get out of jail free card. More responsibility would lead to more care.

[bricat]

I here what you are saying BUT insurance company PDS do not over rule the ombudsman. I would argue that "unattended" MAY be the avenue I would take.

Many years ago my son had paid his policy by mail and there was no record of receipt by the insurance company. Subsequently when his car was stolen his claim was rejected. My son claimed he had posted the renewal before the due date but somehow the mail was not received. He did not have a record of this payment via cheque butt etc. To cut a long story short the insurance company made an ex gratia payment of $9500. or thereabouts after the intervention of the ombudsman. The value of the car was about $12000. I am sure the PDS states we must receive the payment before the due date or the policy is null and void.


I must be getting old as a few years ago I would have agreed with your stance about taking responsibility for your actions or lack thereof. Everybody has different abilities and this crosses all situations from playing football to doing maths and unfortunately care and attention. I have a daughter who has ABI (acquired brain injury) and at times she acts and behaves like a 15 year old. She is 38. There are people in our society who are born like that or worse so yes we have to pay extra when these people get insurance and subsequently make a claim.

All I say to the OP is you have nothing to lose by taking action via the ombudsman. You MAY get an ex gratia payment. cheers Brian

[MissionMan]

I worked for an insurance company many years ago so I'll give you an idea how things work with the ombudsman and why your sons claim was paid.

If you claimed for an accident that occurred when your tyres were smooth, the insurance company would repudiate the claim based on the fact that your vehicle isn't roadworthy which they are legally entitled to do. If the claim is taken to the ombudsman, the first thing he will do is check what the weather was like (normally in the claim form). If it was wet, he will uphold the repudiation, if it's dry, he will request that the insurance company pay the claim because in dry weather, the smooth tyres had no impact on the cause of the accident. In the case of your son, the ombudsman may have argued that he would have continued his insurance based on his policy history.

In the case of the incident by the OP, there is a direct correlation between the incident and the cause. I.e. The fact that he left the keys in the car would have contributed to the cause of the incident and therefore the ombudsman is 99% likely to uphold it

[Hamster]

All I say to the OP is you have nothing to lose by taking action via the ombudsman. You MAY get an ex gratia payment. cheers Brian

Again, the example you give is less clear cut than this situation. You're right nothing to lose, but $50 says that if the situation is as the OP describes here (ie. There was no armed guards, locked gates etc to overcome) and this is what they have told the insurance company, they'll get nothing. Want to take the bet?

Re taking responsibility, and the example of your daughter, perhaps it helps if I say people should take responsibility that can reasonably be expected. Where a disability exists that impairs judgment etc then this person would be held to a lower/appropriate level of accountability.
The principle is the same, for your average person, man / woman up, take some accountability, deal with the consequences of your actions and stop expecting others to mitigate your mistakes. Even a 15 year old has a level of accountability, hence they can be punished in a court of law. I'll repeat though, this is a side discussion and the OPs family sound well aware of it.

[bricat]

Let me think now....I had an anxiety attack, one kid ran onto the road, I was busting to go to the toilet, one of my kids let out a blood curdling scream from inside the house. I'm sure I could and would butter up my claim so as to make me not look so stupid. The ombudsman just needs something to hang his hat on to side with the complainant. The ombudsman realises the impact against the complainant and the impact against the insurance company. That is to say the insurance company will recover the loss without any problems.

As an aside my wife walked into the house yesterday and left the car running in our driveway as she had forgotten something. So I naturally I gave her a serve. 15/love. She clipped me behind the ears on her way out. Game/set/match. cheers Brian

[ricktas]

Please keep this thread about the discussion. Posts suggesting/promoting lying to an insurance company are not appropriate. Also remember the Out of Focus forum is publicly viewable, not just members can see what is posted here.

[MissionMan]

Let me think now....I had an anxiety attack, one kid ran onto the road, I was busting to go to the toilet, one of my kids let out a blood curdling scream from inside the house. I'm sure I could and would butter up my claim so as to make me not look so stupid. The ombudsman just needs something to hang his hat on to side with the complainant. The ombudsman realises the impact against the complainant and the impact against the insurance company. That is to say the insurance company will recover the loss without any problems.

As an aside my wife walked into the house yesterday and left the car running in our driveway as she had forgotten something. So I naturally I gave her a serve. 15/love. She clipped me behind the ears on her way out. Game/set/match. cheers Brian

It's also worth noting that if you get caught lying on a claim form (or on the phone calls which are generally recorded), you can have your insurance cancelled and it will affect your ability to get insurance in future as well as having a policy cancelled by a company is like having your visa cancelled.

[bricat]

My apologies. It was worded badly and was more as a suggestion as to other extenuating circumstances that may have existed at the time as I am sure we don't have the FULL story. cheers Brian