View Full Version : How to deal with overly optimistic novice photographers who think they are better than they are?
MissionMan
22-12-2014, 2:21pm
It may seem like a strange title but bare with me and it may make sense.
Got a "friend" on facebook (and I say "friend" because he is part of a group of friends, but not someone I am close with).
He has started to get into photorgraphy and gone out and invested in a mirrorless setup and seems to be plodding along getting better. Investment so far is limited, so it's not like he's invested in the top of the range glass.
Recently he posted up his website commenting on how well his photography is going with the usual support from friends and I don't have an issue with this, because that's what his friends are there to do, support him.
What concern me was a little page he had about business offering his services. The first part was less of a concern, offering his services to do club photography and hey, if people want to pay him to come to their club and take photos of people having a good time so they can post photos on Facebook, good for him, it's not exactly going to be the end of the world if it doesn't come out perfectly and I've seen enough dismal photos of clubs to know that it's probably not an event where quality is paramount.
The part that concerned me was a little piece saying "Wedding photography - coming soon".
Now, given his skill level, what concerns me is that a supportive friend or family member will see him offering the services and engage him to do the wedding.
He's not a bad photographer by amateur standards, but he certainly isn't good either. Without blowing my own trumpet, he isn't as good as I am and I wouldn't go near a wedding. He'd probably battle to win comps here in the intermediate section and I'd expect anyone engaging in Weddings to at least have a good chance of winning comps in the advanced section.
So the question is what do I do? Do I leave it alone? Wait and see if he actually starts trying to do something on the wedding side? The concern I have is that if he does actually get a wedding gig from an unsuspecting friend, it may destroy the only chance they have of decent memories on the day.
bcys1961
22-12-2014, 2:38pm
The first half of your description sounded a bit like me a year ago as I did exactly that - decided to get more into photography and invested in a mirrorless system. You can get a lot better very quickly once you start reading and practising , entering the comps etc...
Where I differ form your friend is I have no desire to do weddings , or any other form of professional photography. I'm a happy amateur . As you say if a friend asked me to do their wedding I say that is a specialist skill, but if they persisted , and if I was going to the wedding anyway I would not charge , and would warn them - you get what you get.
As for your conundrum, I would not do or say anything. I would not see it as my business to get involved in the transaction between two other parties . It's buyer beware like anything else . Maybe he will start with friends , or maybe a cheap rate and the buyer will be happy with a cheap result. He might even do a good job ? Eventually he will either make it or he won't and that is the free market at work .
It may seem like a strange title but bare with me and it may make sense.
Spellcheck needed, getting "bare" with you is out of the question. :p
The part that concerned me was a little piece saying "Wedding photography - coming soon".
I have experienced the same concerns, it is a common thing and happens with people from here on AP too. Straight from buying a camera, joining the forum to wedding pro extroadinaire within 6 months.
So the question is what do I do? Do I leave it alone? Wait and see if he actually starts trying to do something on the wedding side? The concern I have is that if he does actually get a wedding gig from an unsuspecting friend, it may destroy the only chance they have of decent memories on the day.
No, don't leave it alone. Risk losing a few failbook "friends" to prevent tears from someone further down the track. Be blunt, just tell him he isn't up to it yet.
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And ---- no one invests in a brand or system, they simply buy a rapidly depreciating asset that may or may not actually pay for itself within its lifetime.
If the get really lucky they might actually break even on a few components from the system such as a good lens after a few years.
arthurking83
22-12-2014, 3:16pm
The first half of your description sounded a bit like me .....
Ditto!
No one can lay claim to being born a great photographer.
I say leave him be.
By the time he reaches a point where he realises he could charge an appropriate amount to cover his expenses and make a living from it, the worlds wedding photographer pool will have swollen to about 6.999 billion. From that point, Natural Selection will sort them all out.
:D
MissionMan
22-12-2014, 4:51pm
Ditto!
No one can lay claim to being born a great photographer.
I say leave him be.
By the time he reaches a point where he realises he could charge an appropriate amount to cover his expenses and make a living from it, the worlds wedding photographer pool will have swollen to about 6.999 billion. From that point, Natural Selection will sort them all out.
:D
Agreed, but getting your hands dirty on wedding photography isn't on my list of things most likely to help your career prospects. I would compare it to trying to learn parachuting by starting base jumping, with an unsuspecting couple tied to your back :D
Steve Axford
22-12-2014, 4:58pm
Agreed, but getting your hands dirty on wedding photography isn't on my list of things most likely to help your career prospects. I would compare it to trying to learn parachuting by starting base jumping, with an unsuspecting couple tied to your back :D
I can't see that taking bad wedding photos is worse than selling anything that isn't up to standard. No-one is going to die from a bad wedding photo. Your memory will not be wiped because of a bad wedding photo (you will still remember the wedding). It's just a wedding photo.
MissionMan
22-12-2014, 5:01pm
Yup. But you only ever get married to that person once (or so you would hope) so if it goes bad, there isn't really much of an opportunity to go back and redo it. You can redo most other photo shoots. The other thing with selling something that isn't up to standard is people can normally see what they are getting.
Steve Axford
22-12-2014, 5:06pm
There are lots of things in life that only happen once. How many people really dote over their wedding photos?
ameerat42
22-12-2014, 5:39pm
Presuming the thread title:
"How to deal with overly optimistic novice photographers who think they are better than they are?"
is an accurate description of the situation, does the word "deal":
a) relate to you accommodating the situation, or,
b) to you intervening to alter some behaviour?
In either case, do you have any possible outcomes you wish to occasion?
Given that in the body of your post your relationship to this person is rather remote, I would tend on the
side of leaving it alone. In considering this as an option, recall whether when you were at a similar stage of
photographic adeptness, some of your behaviours may not have been wrongly interpreted.
In other words, "What's it to you?" If you want a corollary, "How will anything you do better the cause of photography?" (Bit of :D, eh!)
That can also be said, "You'll probably get nowhere [good], and have a rough ride to boot."
Nuff's head.
Wedding photography, caveat emptor.
If you hire a cheap 'tog you get those results.
We are not our brothers keeper. You can't fix everything, so just leave it alone.
I can't see that taking bad wedding photos is worse than selling anything that isn't up to standard.
Except that with our 35th anniversary coming up in January the photos have a very sentimental value which seems to increase over time.
But it is up to the couple to get a good 'tog and good results. A lot of people want good long lasting images.
MissionMan
22-12-2014, 6:40pm
I guess one of the options might also be one that avoids approaching it from a skill perspective (which may knock his self confidence) and approach it from the commercial perspective. I.e. I see you posted wedding photography on your site, you may want to be careful because of the commercial implications, insurance, watertight contracts, backup gear etc. Once he investigates that he might come to his senses if he realises the costs of getting commercially ready doesn't make it financially viable.
Tell him the story about the uninsured wedding tog who last year (2013) lost his house then his marriage because an auntie of the bride tripped over his lighting and broke her hip.
ricktas
22-12-2014, 8:04pm
Describe 'good'. What a socialite thinks is good, will differ from what your average unemployable bogan with 6 kids does, along with how much they are both willing to pay.
$400 for a wedding, in some socio-economic groups is all they can afford and they will probably not fork out for the $500 album. They just want photos to share on FB etc. But a high-society wedding, would not contract that $400 photographer in the first place, and their expections would be much higher.
Your friend might find a niche market, where what they do is in demand. They would not be taking away from the $10K wedding photographer, cause their market demographic is so dis-similar.
So as per others, I say, let them do their weddings, but talk to them about their skills, their market segment, what they think they can do, and what they think their customers expect. As long as customer expectation for the $ is the same as the photographers skill for the $, then win win.
geoffsta
22-12-2014, 9:30pm
MissionMan. A good way to communicate with your FB friend, would be to say that you wouldn't do it. Explain all the pitfalls. A simple pitfall is; that it only takes one thing to go wrong (Bad card, Computer crash, nasty clients. As examples) And your repartition will be shot.
I have seen it happen. I was telling I @ M about one a couple of years ago. She charged big money, for one with a entry level camera, a flash with no spare batteries and it took 6 months to deliver the not so good images (Then they weren't allowed to display the images on FB without having the watermark covering 60% of the middle of the image)
She was also rude and cranky.
Now you don't even see her on FB, or anywhere for that matter. Vanished from this earth.
Explain that do it properly they really need an assistant, plenty of backup batteries, camera cards and a backup camera (Not an iPhone) Not forgetting public liability insurance.... The list goes on.
I remember reading on here, about 4 years ago. (And it might have been Rick who posted it) That a minimum of around $35k worth of gear (Cameras, computer, software and sundries) would be a good starting point for someone getting into weddings.
I take my hat off to good wedding TOG's. It can be so bloody hard... And the worse thing is that some nong with an iPhone, will say "My photos are better"
He'd probably battle to win comps here in the intermediate section and I'd expect anyone engaging in Weddings to at least have a good chance of winning comps in the advanced section.
:eek: Just as well I don't do weddings.
Can I now be moved back to intermediate?
For some reason this person seems important to you? Just be honest with anything you say to them. If the person is not important to you, don't worry about it at all.
There must be plenty of other people taking wedding photos that may not be as good as they could be. How to hunt them all down??
bcys1961
22-12-2014, 9:50pm
:eek: Just as well I don't do weddings.
Can I now be moved back to intermediate?
For some reason this person seems important to you? Just be honest with anything you say to them. If the person is not important to you, don't worry about it at all.
There must be plenty of other people taking wedding photos that may not be as good as they could be. How to hunt them all down??
I've won some intermediate comps . If I get promoted to advanced and win a comp can I do weddings ! Please sir !!! :rolleyes: :umm:
Then again my recent wedding comp picture of Bridezilla only came second. I need to do more work . :angry0:
( And congrats to Elvie for two wins in a row!)
So while I'm moved back to intermediate, Brad should be moved to advanced.:p
bcys1961
22-12-2014, 10:07pm
So while I'm moved back to intermediate, Brad should be moved to advanced.:p
If there is a wedding in Mudgee let me know . You can be my assistant. (How many beers do you charge?)
MattNQ
22-12-2014, 10:50pm
MM, you could borrow from Yes Minister........." Ah you are doing wedding photography? A very brave decision sir...very brave"
I am only an amateur too. I have done three weddings, no charge , to friends and family who insisted, two of which had pro
photogs there. I wouldn't dream of charging for my photos.
I say let him learn the hard way when his customers come back unhappy. You get what you pay for...
I can't imagine too many people choosing a photographer without seeing a portfolio first. Unless the portfolio contains images taken by others, I don't see there is a lot you could do. Quite frankly, there are a lot of people out there doing jobs they really shouldn't be in. Carefully worded comments pointing out the possible pitfalls and things that need to be considered are probably about as far as you can go. As Rick has pointed out, sometimes the cheap amatuer is the only tog some people can afford.
I'ld advice to just let it go. If there's a couple out there that wants wedding pictures from a 'tog that doesn't have a decent wedding-portfolio, chances are they won't shell out for good photography anyway. You are not responsible for his photography, his business nor his clientele. And who knows, maybe he'll either come to his senses soon enough or he might do a stellar job by accident ;).
Some links..
http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/192071/40-of-the-worst-wedding-photographs-youll-ever-see/?-0
http://youarenotaphotographer.com/
Just watched a segment on a Current Affair of a self proclaimed 'Wedding Photographer'.
Scary stuff, charged big money, and often didn't turn up.
I've done one wedding for acquaintances, charged about 1/3 of the rate a pro would have charged. At the end of the day I looked at it as a learning experience and for the time taken, both with the shoot and PP, the kids at Maccas would be on a much higher hourly rate.
I certainly haven't chased any more weddings but I must have done something right as they have recommended me to someone else.
I haven't accepted the job yet, but if I do, I will definitely be better prepared.
I learnt heaps from my first shoot, not the least of which was not to forget my flash diffuser. :o I think the other main thing I took away from the job was to be more selective of backgrounds.
It seems a very common occurrence nowadays - buy a camera with kit lens and next you're a professional. I'd like half their confidence in their abilities, especially when it comes to photography. Unfortunately on facebook all they get is positive feedback and they begin to believe it. And, so many people assume, you have a good camera, you must be a good photographer:eek:. Quite a few locally do baby/wedding/engagement/pregnancy shoots - I've seen some where the eyes aren't even in focus. On the other hand my son recently married, they hired a professional AIPP accredited photographer and frankly her work was lousy, badly posed, high key is one thing but when it means the bride's dress changes colour and important highlights completely blown :confused013 and so many crooked horizons. How are people supposed to know?
I'd either just leave it alone or explain the pitfalls.
bcys1961
24-12-2014, 12:11am
It seems a very common occurrence nowadays - buy a camera with kit lens and next you're a professional.
Yes ,it is funny how this only seems to happen with cameras. If you follow the same logic and bought a piano you should be doing gigs at the pub in the following week and a concert at the opera house after about a month!.
Yes ,it is funny how this only seems to happen with cameras.
You mean, like, there are no people that buy semi-professional kitchen equipment and than think they will be able to cook? :confused013
It happens all the time, with people making software, with shady car repairmen "fixing" cars, with handymen building something or installing electrics or plumbing. Usually though, the results are less visible - or at least not that quickly.
bcys1961
24-12-2014, 6:57am
You mean, like, there are no people that buy semi-professional kitchen equipment and than think they will be able to cook? :confused013
It happens all the time, with people making software, with shady car repairmen "fixing" cars, with handymen building something or installing electrics or plumbing. Usually though, the results are less visible - or at least not that quickly.
Agreed!:D
arthurking83
24-12-2014, 9:26am
I'ld advice to just let it go. If there's a couple out there that wants wedding pictures from a 'tog that doesn't have a decent wedding-portfolio, chances are they won't shell out for good photography anyway. .......
+1
Shane H
24-12-2014, 9:29am
Let the market decide. There will be people out there who just want photos. They will pay for what they get. They will know what sort of photos he takes and that will be what they want.
Sometimes you have to set the moral compass aside and let things work themselves out.
Credit to you for taking the time to explore the options and seek guidance what actions you might take. That's a rare thing in itself.
Cheers
Shane
No, don't leave it alone. Risk losing a few failbook "friends" to prevent tears from someone further down the track. Be blunt, just tell him he isn't up to it yet.
Funnily enough (well, not funny really unless you mean funny=weird rather than funny=humourous) I went this route only recently on FB. A photographer straight out of a local training course, not yet turning a dollar on portraits himself, advertised his services to teach others "Basic Portraiture" for $250.00 per person. I pointed out the obvious; that it's a major leap from even knowing a subject yourself to actually teaching it to others and requires a specific skill set. Oh dear. The reaction was essentially "How dare you..." and "... he's only trying to make a few dollars" etc. What about the poor saps who pay the price and don't get what was advertised?
Long story short (at least short sighted in my view), I left the group to their own devices. I hope I made a few lemmings think first before beaching themselves but given the level of human proclivities toward herd behaviour, I doubt it. Such a sad commentary really. I guess it comes with the corollary to Gen-Y that certainly applies to my own offspring. It should be relabelled Gen-Ynot? :eek:
Good on him for having a go. He will fall flat on his face if he is not prepared. I have always had belief in my own ability. Mind you I might have lacked some of the skill required at times. If you feel inclined to make a comment be positive about it. That is at the same time pointing out he will have to spend x amount of dollars to get the minimum equipment required for the shoot. Suggest he do a dummy shoot at a party or similar. That should sort him out. QED. cheers Brian
Good on him for having a go. He will fall flat on his face if he is not prepared.
Problem is though Brian that when he does "fall flat on his face", someone else will pay the price. That's not really fair is it? I'm all for people having a go, but only if they've done enough to suggest they have a reasonable chance of success. Everyone has to start somewhere, but the top is NOT a good place to start IMHO. In this case the "TOP" is anywhere where failure has consequences beyond the adventurous tog's own failure. JMHO of course. :confused013
bcys1961
26-12-2014, 10:45pm
Problem is though Brian that when he does "fall flat on his face", someone else will pay the price. That's not really fair is it? I'm all for people having a go, but only if they've done enough to suggest they have a reasonable chance of success. Everyone has to start somewhere, but the top is NOT a good place to start IMHO. In this case the "TOP" is anywhere where failure has consequences beyond the adventurous tog's own failure. JMHO of course. :confused013
In that case I would say both parties would learn a lesson - the photographer not to take on more than he can handle and the people who booked him - to look more carefully at who they hire . Lose-lose or if you regard experience as a valuable teacher - Win- Win!
How you define "starting at the top" depends very much on who he is taking photo's for, what they expect and how much he is charging . If they are taking photo's of a friends wedding, or not charging very much and the recipient know he is new to the game then he is starting at the bottom. If he is charging a lot and does not deliver , then both will learn a lesson. Ultimately experience is the most valuable teacher .
If there is a wedding in Mudgee let me know . You can be my assistant. (How many beers do you charge?)
There's heaps of weddings in Mudgee. I charge bottles of wine by the dozens. No one seems to want to hire me!:confused013
If you happen to get a gig in Mudgee, I'll happily assist at a discounted rate. I'll only charge by the box (no beer involved).
bcys1961
27-12-2014, 8:55pm
There's heaps of weddings in Mudgee. I charge bottles of wine by the dozens. No one seems to want to hire me!:confused013
If you happen to get a gig in Mudgee, I'll happily assist at a discounted rate. I'll only charge by the box (no beer involved).
Sound's like it could be a scene from that new movie - "Drunk and Drunker!" .
In that case I would say both parties would learn a lesson - the photographer not to take on more than he can handle and the people who booked him - to look more carefully at who they hire . Lose-lose or if you regard experience as a valuable teacher - Win- Win!
No, that's not a win-win. The customer might learn something but what is that knowledge worth if he has no chance to use it ever again? Also, the results for the photographer are temporary - he can simply ignore them in the long term, but the customer will have to live with them forever.
Having said that the primary responsibility for the outcome lies with both, photographer and customer. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys. And if the customer doesn't investigate when hiring it's at least partly his own fault.
In that case I would say both parties would learn a lesson - the photographer not to take on more than he can handle and the people who booked him - to look more carefully at who they hire . Lose-lose or if you regard experience as a valuable teacher - Win- Win!
Hmmm... very expensive one-off lesson for the errant customer - a once only life event ruined. The fauxtographer on the other hand may learn nothing and continue on his or her delusional way unmoved. For one the price is far too high and for the other it's peanuts. :confused013
bcys1961
28-12-2014, 11:32am
No, that's not a win-win. The customer might learn something but what is that knowledge worth if he has no chance to use it ever again? Also, the results for the photographer are temporary - he can simply ignore them in the long term, but the customer will have to live with them forever.
Having said that the primary responsibility for the outcome lies with both, photographer and customer. If you pay peanuts you get monkeys. And if the customer doesn't investigate when hiring it's at least partly his own fault.
The lesson that you get what you pay for is an invaluable one the customer will get to use many times over , maybe not specifically relating to photography, but to many other aspects of life. I assume the customer will take the photographer to task , express their displeasure if the job is not well done , request a refund, a reshoot etc..... . The certainly would not get any word of mouth recommendations and so if they do not do a good job their business will eventually fizzle out.
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Hmmm... very expensive one-off lesson for the errant customer - a once only life event ruined. The fauxtographer on the other hand may learn nothing and continue on his or her delusional way unmoved. For one the price is far too high and for the other it's peanuts. :confused013
See response to Jev above.
MissionMan
28-12-2014, 11:49am
The lesson that you get what you pay for is an invaluable one the customer will get to use many times over , maybe not specifically relating to photography, but to many other aspects of life. I assume the customer will take the photographer to task , express their displeasure if the job is not well done , request a refund, a reshoot etc..... . The certainly would not get any word of mouth recommendations and so if they do not do a good job their business will eventually fizzle out.
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See response to Jev above.
So the photographer doesn't succeed and the couples weddings photos are ruined. That'll help them a whole lot the NEXT time they get married.
As people have said, the first time people get exposed to formal photography is generally a wedding, which is also the most important occasion to have an experienced photographer. Learning a lesson from the experience doesn't help them a whole lot.
The idea that you get what you pay for is not relevant in this case, largely because customer don't actually understand what the cost associated with wedding photography actually is so their perception warped. They don't understand what pro gear costs, what the insurance costs, how much post processing is required. They see the more expensive photographer as the Ferrari rather than the toyota camry because someone is trying to sell them a bicycle that looks like a car for $1000 and they don't know the difference.
The amount of work going into wedding planning is incredible which is why people don't bother to educate themselves. If there was more visibility in the press of poor photography, it might actually help the real photographers but I think most people are embarrassed about their choices and don't tend to go public afterwards for fear that people will see them as an idiot.
bcys1961
28-12-2014, 12:18pm
So the photographer doesn't succeed and the couples weddings photos are ruined. That'll help them a whole lot the NEXT time they get married.
As people have said, the first time people get exposed to formal photography is generally a wedding, which is also the most important occasion to have an experienced photographer. Learning a lesson from the experience doesn't help them a whole lot..
Well that's life , survival of the fittest , law of the jungle etc. etc.. . (There is more than a 50% probability they both will get married again anyway, so may get to use their experience).
The original question was if you should say something to this person you know ( a little) , who is thinking of advertising their services a wedding photographer , and I and a few others simply say , let them go for it . They may prosper , they may not . They may create joyous permanent memories for some lucky couples , or they may destroy the hopes and dreams of others . Every wannabe wedding photographer has to start somewhere so let them start and then let the market determine the photographers fate. You can try and stop this one if you like but their are hundreds more lining up behind them to have their go at it.
I assume the customer will take the photographer to task , express their displeasure if the job is not well done , request a refund, a reshoot etc..... . The certainly would not get any word of mouth recommendations and so if they do not do a good job their business will eventually fizzle out.
Ok, but "expressions of displeasure (sic) ... refund, a reshoot, etc." Are no compensation for having a once-in-a-lifetime event ruined because the photographer was too egotistical to recognise that he/she wasn't ready for such responsibility. I understand your expectation that people hiring the said photographer need to do their homework first BUT many don't know enough about it to tell a good one from a bad one, and others are often too short of money to be particularly choosy. I just happen to think that the principle onus falls on the person advertising for hire skills they simply do not have! Fortunately, consumer protection laws seem to agree with that position. I've seen the same thing in other fields of endeavour, where the shyster simply goes out of business under one name and starts up again under another. The fact remains that most consumers are not qualified to judge the expertise of most professions. Do you really have any idea how good a doctor your doctor is, after all? We have registration bodies that attempt (and sometimes fail) to protect consumers in the building industry, law, medicine, etc. Nothing really protects a consumer from a dodgy photographer, unfortunately. It's up to all of us to minimise the impact they have for all of our sakes, or we'll be the used car salesmen of the new millennium. :p
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Every wannabe wedding photographer has to start somewhere so let them start and then let the market determine the photographers fate. You can try and stop this one if you like but their are hundreds more lining up behind them to have their go at it.
Yes, they do, and the appropriate place is as a second shooter for an experienced photographer, not playing with the memories of innocent people trying to start their lives together on a high note. Why is it that so many people think they don't need EXPERIENCE along with their learned skills, knowledge and equipment? You advocate getting that experience at the expense of others. I'm simply suggesting there are less damaging ways to get the experience they need. I would have thought that , as thinking, reasoning human beings we were a little better than the "survival of the fittest, law of the jungle, etc. etc." :confused013
When I had a house extension done many years ago I got about 5 quotes. I knew nothing about building costs so I had to make a decision. Quotes ranged between $20.000. and $60,000. I kid you not. Same goes with a photog. You shop around or get recommendations from family and friends. Such an important decision requires a lot of thought and planning. So should you say something? Yes with a lot of thought and not be influenced by your own shortcomings. ( I mean that in the nicest way) cheers Brian
bcys1961
29-12-2014, 11:58am
When I had a house extension done many years ago I got about 5 quotes. I knew nothing about building costs so I had to make a decision. Quotes ranged between $20.000. and $60,000. I kid you not. Same goes with a photog. You shop around or get recommendations from family and friends. Such an important decision requires a lot of thought and planning. So should you say something? Yes with a lot of thought and not be influenced by your own shortcomings. ( I mean that in the nicest way) cheers Brian
So who did you go with ? In similar situations I usually go with one of the middle quotes.
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Ok, but "expressions of displeasure (sic) ... refund, a reshoot, etc." Are no compensation for having a once-in-a-lifetime event ruined because the photographer was too egotistical to recognise that he/she wasn't ready for such responsibility. I understand your expectation that people hiring the said photographer need to do their homework first BUT many don't know enough about it to tell a good one from a bad one, and others are often too short of money to be particularly choosy. I just happen to think that the principle onus falls on the person advertising for hire skills they simply do not have! Fortunately, consumer protection laws seem to agree with that position. I've seen the same thing in other fields of endeavour, where the shyster simply goes out of business under one name and starts up again under another. The fact remains that most consumers are not qualified to judge the expertise of most professions. Do you really have any idea how good a doctor your doctor is, after all? We have registration bodies that attempt (and sometimes fail) to protect consumers in the building industry, law, medicine, etc. Nothing really protects a consumer from a dodgy photographer, unfortunately. It's up to all of us to minimise the impact they have for all of our sakes, or we'll be the used car salesmen of the new millennium. :p
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Yes, they do, and the appropriate place is as a second shooter for an experienced photographer, not playing with the memories of innocent people trying to start their lives together on a high note. Why is it that so many people think they don't need EXPERIENCE along with their learned skills, knowledge and equipment? You advocate getting that experience at the expense of others. I'm simply suggesting there are less damaging ways to get the experience they need. I would have thought that , as thinking, reasoning human beings we were a little better than the "survival of the fittest, law of the jungle, etc. etc." :confused013
Don't disagree with much of this . So are you suggesting compulsory registration of all wedding photographers? There is AIPP membership and they probably charge more. I still think some people will choose to go with cheaper , unregistered photographers. It's human nature.
Don't disagree with much of this . So are you suggesting compulsory registration of all wedding photographers? There is AIPP membership and they probably charge more. I still think some people will choose to go with cheaper , unregistered photographers. It's human nature.
No, registration doesn't guarantee quality unfortunately. All it does is offer some comfort that others have agreed the subject meets a minimum standard. My advice? Don't use any photographer for your wedding who doesn't have Professional Indemnity insurance. That should weed out the wannabe's from the already-are's. PI is expensive and most who don't know what they're doing won't go to the trouble or expense. Education is probably the biggest protection measure ... and that means educating the ill-informed on both sides of the equation as what are the real risks and responsibilities. Simply put, tell the wannabe not to look to start at the top but rather offer themselves as a 2nd shooter in a sort of apprenticeship until they know what is expected. JMHO of course.
PS. FWIW I'm in the process of trying to discourage overconfidence in one such new photographer right now. She has been approached to do a wedding and can't resist the temptation. I plan to hit her with the PI punch (among several others) this coming week - wedding is mid-February (oh, lord, Valentine's day weddings mean so much higher expectations :eek:). Either she will get the insurance (and the second body, and the extra kit such as cards, etc.) and make nothing on the day or I'll wash my hands of giving her further advice on the subject. Either way, I will walk away feeling that I've tried to get her thinking straight.
[QUOTE=bcys1961;1270329]So who did you go with ? In similar situations I usually go with one of the middle quotes.
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Took the $30,000. option which worked out OK. Took $3,000. off when I said I would do the painting. Ahhh young and stupid.
bitsnpieces
31-12-2014, 9:37am
Is this post about me? :P
I'm a fresh photographer who came out gunho and got slapped on with the 'advanced' skill level, and will be shooting my friend's wedding next week in Hamilton, New Zealand, for free but all expenses paid.
All my friend says is that, as long as you believe you can do it, we'll give you the opportunity. They know the risk, but they also know I'm okay enough, and if anything, there's got to be some good photos here and there, so they'll take it.
So it's a trust thing, and an opportunity thing. So with what other's have said so far, my go is also whether your friend has had a chance to be as a second photographer, tag along photographer, yet?
And I ask this not because I've necessarily done it, but because I'm living exactly what your concern is, new, and put into the field already. I personally believe I can do it, but definitely feel, extra practice would have been great.
My history so far are doing engagement photos for one friend, reception photos for another, and just a random guy taking photos at a friend's wedding - all free by the way, so nothing much in terms of real work.
So, if you do get a chance to talk to him, if you haven't already, just chat like normal. You notice his new service, see what he's done to prepare for this new venture, what he's ideas are, make suggestions like doing second photographer first, etc, and it'll come off more naturally.
[What I've currently been doing - is it enough?]
I've sent them a few photos of some recent photos that I've taken, to give them an idea of my style of photography, so make sure the future-wife will be happy and know what to expect, and have gone through the plan with my friend.
We'll spend a day before the wedding to physically go through it all, get an idea, practice shots, etc.
I'll have a chance to play with this camera so I know how to use it during the wedding, for when I want that 70-200mm, which I don't have yet myself unfortunately.
And I'll be bringing just about all of my accessories and gear, extra memory cards, batteries, AC converter for the car to charge in-between shots, laptop to offload images, etc
And this is my first time officially shooting a wedding, and also being the photographer too.
[Maybe not?]
ameerat42
31-12-2014, 9:46am
From the sound of your post, Bits, I'd say this thread pointedly DOES NOT refer to you:D
CandidTown
31-12-2014, 10:39am
I suspect that his wedding will go smoothly, he will deliver his images and the couple will be happy.
If he brings backup gear, for the unexpected, he will do just fine.
I think he is more brave than he is knowledgeable, but in wedding photography you need both.
I know good photographers who wouldn't dare charge for wedding photography as they are 'not good enough' in their mind.
In most cases they will never be good enough, but that has to do with them being scared of this considerable responsibility and not with their skill level.
The simple truth is... it is almost impossible to take completely unusable pictures with modern cameras.
This is not 1980s where you had to know your stuff and have confidence in your ability.
Today, you take a shot, chimp it; if its under or over-exposed, correct it.. then take another shot.
If that fails, change your settings to "P" mode and you're good.
"P" for Professional that is... :)
He will do fine because of another simple truth.
Wedding photography(or any photography) clients are not experienced photographers.
They will not scrutinise every pixel in their image, like we often do here in our forum, to see if its perfect.
They will see themselves and others in the pictures and they will be happy because most people can not tell a difference between a good enough image and a great image.
Unless he delivers very badly exposed or blurry images, they will think he's great...
It's kind of sad for those who strive for perfection in their photography, but i've seen enough of this happening to know that its true.
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