Unbiased advice sought

[enseth]

I'm going to treat myself to a new computer (desk top) which will be used pretty much exclusively for photography processing. I have never owned a Mac. I fact I have never even used one. I have always used PC's. I have heard on numerous occasions how good Macs are for working on graphics. So with that in mind here's the list of questions:

Are Macs really that much better?

Is it difficult to make the transition from PC to Mac

Given this computer will be used mainly for photography processing what would be your recommendations for both PC & Mac?

What is the optimum Monitor size & type?



All advice gratefully received.

[ricktas]

what you will get is people who use PC telling you they are the best, and people using mac's telling you Mac's are the best.

go to a mac store and try some.

[ameerat42]

Get USB3 and USB3 HDDs. Make your system drive an SSD.

[JJM]

From my limited experience with Mac's, Photoshop is essentially the same as it is on PC.
Speed wise I think $ for $ I believe PC's are better value and being able upgrade is a big thing for me.
The other question you want to ask yourself is do you want to have learn a new operating system?
If you have a family full of Ipads and Iphones then I could see the advantage as apple integration of devices is pretty good.

The above has been said with my limited experience with Mac's i.e. played with one a couple of times.

[I @ M]

Get USB3 and USB3 HDDs. Make your system drive an SSD.

Before doing such things ---- take a look around the net at the various reports about new "macs" refusing to talk to non apple SSDs.

- - - Updated - - -

And my thoughts in an unbiased way are that if the machine is to be used "exclusively" for processing images you will save massive dollars by building / configuring a windows machine over buying a mac. Running the bare minimum programs on such a machine, obviously an OS, then purely your editing program/s should result in a stable under stressed 'puter.
That is the way we have it set up here, one machine dedicated to images and just the OS ( Win 7 pro ) + 4 or so editing programs. It has been running sweetly for a few years now. The advice for the configuration of the hard drives and the actual assembly of were thanks to King Arfur (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/member.php?10-arthurking83) ------

[ameerat42]

Well, the same goes for pies. Use Apple pies only:D

[enseth]

Thanks for the advice people. It is as much as I suspected. I'll do some more research on hardware but you fellas have steered me in the right direction.

[nimrodisease]

Pretty much as others have said... you'll get much more bang for buck if you build yourself a PC. And it's very easy! I have found http://www.pccasegear.com/ to be very competitively priced and have really good service.

[Kym]

The easiest way is as follows...

Figure out a config via WP https://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/rmp_sg_whirlpoolpcs_multi_tasking_configs
Goto MSY and order all the parts and pay $70 for MSY to build it for you http://www.msy.com.au
Simple!

[Warbler]

One idiosyncracy I found with Apple Macs when I was using one for a client as opposed to a PC was in its copy mode. I think the I was using OSX and it may be different now. Anyway, when copying a directory AND its contents from one location to another, if there is a copy of that directory already in that location, the Apple actually copies and replaces rather than copy and append like a PC does. So, if the existing directory has something in it that is NOT in the copy you're moving or copying, that file will be deleted from that location too. This is also what happens within Adobe Bridge which makes me think Adobe is Apple-centric. ;)

This is not a reason not to go with Apple, but it is a trap for people who simply think an operating system is just an operating system and you don't need to understand how it works. The first time you discover this is when you lose image files and don't understand why. In windows it is easy to drag a directory and paste it over an identically named directory and know that you will end up with an amalgamation of both. That won't happen with the Apple.

[arthurking83]

I've had limited time with Apple computers.
One screen only type device(sorry can't remember the name of the model) and a laptop device.

In terms of 'speed' .. I'm yet to see this faster than Windows that almost all Mac users espouse so loudly.

A few of my main issues with Macs ... while I have a lengthy experience with Windows and can navigate through one quite easily, I found that navigating a Mac is not the nirvana that every Mac devotee talks about.

So this notion that Macs "just work" is simply bunk.
The first thing I tried to look for on the Mac(I was trying to fix for someone) was the "Explorer" equivalent. I think it's called Finder or some other name that doesn't really make it a natural process to search you computer for information.
I think I may have been expecting some kind of valet service from the Mac to help me do stuff, going by all the glowing accolades.
The reality is that it's the same(as Windows) but different.

One thing that Apple has going for it with their products is form. That is the products look good. Expensive as hell when compared to a properly produced PC tho.
Another major issue I have is that this 'form' comes at a cost. Not just the additional initial purchase cost either!
There is the support/redundancy/service/adaptive costs to take into consideration too.

While many now see the idea of the traditional Wintel box+ screen+ periphery setup as prehistoric compared to the all in one computer, I still like the idea that when the time comes for it, I can add another hard drive into my jurassic box sitting on my desktop.
I like the idea that if I think I need(actually it's usually a self indulgent want) a dedicated internal drive just for my photos, I purchase a HDD, open the box, connect two cables and I'm good to go.
(but then again, I'm the type that has 4 internal drives, three external drives .. and one spare external drive that is in reality just another internal drive .. just totally disconnected and stored safely).

I like the idea that I can replace the graphics card cheaply and/or easily with whatever I want .. not just what the manufacturer dictates I have to use.

I think all the chatter that Macs appear to be faster stems from the point that the people making those claims who had switched from Windows, had older hardware(ie. HDD's and CPUs) and cluttered configurations.
My experience with the 27" iMac, both when new and now about 4 years old, is that it's slower than my lowly specced(AMD processor) PC. Opening any file seemed slower on the Mac.
My more recent experience with some photo related stuff on a Mac notebook(again the model name escapes me) was that while it felt a lot more solidly built than the average cheapie laptop(of most brands), a higher end quality laptop feels just as tight and well built.
(basically you get what you pay for).
As a comparison: my daughter's $400 Asus laptop feels flimsy as hell, especially around the keyboard, which flexes badly. My son's $900 feels as strong as the 2 year old Apple laptop.
My main gripe with the Apple laptop was it's slower than glacial speed! I was under the assumption that Apple laptops were reknown for their speed.
My daughter's AMD powered latop(hence the super low price!) was massively faster in for loading D800 images(in full sized jpg versions) even my piddly little Atom powered Win7 tablet loaded them faster!

[ameerat42]

...I've had limited time with Apple computers...
Same here, but I'm neither + or -.


One thing that Apple has going for it with their products is form. That is the products look good. Expensive as hell when compared to a properly produced PC tho.
Another major issue I have is that this 'form' comes at a cost. Not just the additional initial purchase cost either!
There is the support/redundancy/service/adaptive costs to take into consideration too.

1) "Form" is in the eye of the informer.
2) And the wages of the dozens of Apple staff in their spacious shops.


...(basically you get what you pay for)...

- Or not even!


As a comparison: my daughter's $400 Asus laptop feels flimsy as hell...

But not my $1500 Zenbook, which is locally known as "The Lapfast". In this case I did get what I paid for, I reckon, after having done ages of research.

Again, I'm not saying yea or nay. (Or "neigh" - from the horse's mouth.)

[arthurking83]

Hmmm .. for some reason, I've just had this weird recollection of the famous quote ....

"Hello! ... I'm Mr Ed"


.....

2) And the wages of the dozens of Apple staff in their spacious shops.

......

Aha!.... this explains it.
(why my cousin's son gave up a degree in industrial design(or something like that) in favour of working in one of those spacious stores)

ps. I recommended to my sis one of those lil Zenbooks too.
I remember them well, when I was looking for a laptop for my son. The build quality was definitely in the upper 1% category.
Just a tad out of the price range I was budgeting for a 10yo with little regard for others 'hard earned'.
Although, in saying that after three years of heavy use, his laptop is in remarkably good nick(for a typical teenage airhead) .. I thought it'd have been trashed a couple of years ago. he does have a habit of losing semi important stuff like the wireless dongle for the mouse, and breaking cables every other day .. but the lappie is still churning along and looking pretty new.

[RJD]

Personally I have very little experience with apple, but a comment a tech once made to me has stuck. It's easier to dig deeper in a pc than a mac. If something isn't working quite the way you want it, you have more options in a pc to change settings than you do in a mac apparently.

[Hamster]

Well I've just gone from windows to Mac and have a MBP for photo work and an air for surfing and easy stuff. My impressions are:
No Apple stuff doesn't "just work", but when you've finished bending it to your will, it is more stable.
I too thought Windows gear was better value, but then I had someone show me that in actual fact it isn't. The mistake most make is not comparing like for like on specs. They think they're pricing up the same specs but they're not.
Don't care though, price wasn't an issue.
It's the Mac faster for processing images. No, my desktop is well specced and was doing fine. But I've now gained portability, which means I can find the time to process images sat untouched in folders from last year.
Apple customer service is light years better than any other service here in WA.
Apple stuff works well with other Apple stuff. Some of the iOS and OSX integration features are useful.
Are there some differences to learn. Yes of course, it's like switching from Word Perfect to Word. Suck it up and stop winging about change like an 80 year old. Every time I've not quickly figured something out a quick Google has provided the answer.
I'm happy I switched, but it hasn't turned me in to a total Apple fan boy. Macs aren't perfect either, if you're cash limited stick with Windows machines, they'll do the job fine ( but they are not better value, although you could argue that a top end MBP is over specced for many people's needs)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jim]

I recently found myself in just this situation, and surprised myself by replacing my 6 year old Windows machine with a refurbished MacBook Pro, which cost me about $2500, with a 512GB SSD, 16 GB RAM, and a lovely 15 in Retina display. While the performance of the new machine is a real revelation to me, I can't really say too much about it given that I can only compare it to a PC which was ancient, and was having real trouble coping with recent software.

Generally speaking I agree with Hamster, with a couple of extra observations:

-Trying to do anything reasonably complicated (eg setting up a local network using wi-fi) tends to be ridiculously easy on the Mac compared to on a PC, but if anything goes wrong it's a bit harder to troubleshoot. Macs are sort of more opaque.

-If you're used to Windows PCs (I used them exclusively for 16 years) the various incompatibilities can seem a bit daunting at first. It's not just that things work differently; they can't read each others file systems (out of the box, at least) transferring browser settings or old e-mails can be a pain, you may need to "crossgrade" Photoshop and find alternatives for your favourite software... don't be too daunted: look it up on the internet and there's a solution to every problem.

[Allie]

Have always owned PCs but last place I worked used Apple as that is what the graphic designer previously used as graphics were important. Very easy to use and considering the included software easily equal in value if all software is compared. Safari as a more than an adequate browser but you can set it up to use whatever you like. Apple lets you do what you want if you are not a tech player and unless something has changed it is user friendly and intuitive. Many advances in PCs in that regard are Microsoft editing their software to become more Apple-like. I still own a PC but if I needed I would change to Apple without any concerns.

As Rick suggested check each out and then decide. :)

[Hamster]

-Trying to do anything reasonably complicated (eg setting up a local network using wi-fi) tends to be ridiculously easy on the Mac compared to on a PC, but if anything goes wrong it's a bit harder to troubleshoot. Macs are sort of more opaque.

-If you're used to Windows PCs (I used them exclusively for 16 years) the various incompatibilities can seem a bit daunting at first. It's not just that things work differently; they can't read each others file systems (out of the box, at least) transferring browser settings or old e-mails can be a pain, you may need to "crossgrade" Photoshop and find alternatives for your favourite software... don't be too daunted: look it up on the internet and there's a solution to every problem.

Yep, Mac tend to do things odd ways (at least they seem odd from an ex Windows perspective) it's worth googling when trouble shooting to get to the answer quicker.

There is a Mac import tool for getting settings across from a Windows machine, it works fine. For emails I just bought a copy of office for Mac, shoved my pst file on the NAS and it read this in outlook like I used to on the Windows machine. Could have used the import function though. This was just to access old emails. I use the Mac email now I've switched
You can also use Boot camp or Parallels etc if you want to run Windows on the Mac. I do this for one program I can't get a Mac version of.

Not sure what you meant by "crossgrade" PS jim. I just downloaded LR and PS from CC, stuck all my images on the HD and told LR where the catalogue was. All was running identical to the old Windows machine in seconds (if you don't count the transferring images bit :-))

Biggest disappointment? ITunes is still a steaming pile of excrement.

[Granville]

I have a Mac at home. PC at work. Any PP I do is done at home with Lightroom and a far as I a concerned, provided the systems are specced up enough, it makes no difference if it is a PC or a Mac. In the PP space there is some validity in the argument that it is only a platform for LR or PS.

There are gotcha's with a Mac. Unless you are purely Mac, you may suffer with some apps. For instance MS do provide Office for Mac, but do not support VBA. If you need that for whatever reason you will need to stay with a PC. May be the same with Active-X. Not sure.

So apart from photo PP, if you are going to use a MAC as a substitute platform for Windows, but still need to do Windows type work (read "Microsoft") then it may be wise to stay with Windows.

[jim]

Hamster: with CC there's no need to "cross grade" Photoshop, but with CS6, you have to ask Adobe to let you change from Windows to Mac version (to which I got the response "sure, would you like a free DVD?") and with older versions you can't do it at all.

[Hamster]

Hamster: with CC there's no need to "cross grade" Photoshop, but with CS6, you have to ask Adobe to let you change from Windows to Mac version (to which I got the response "sure, would you like a free DVD?") and with older versions you can't do it at all.

OIC what you mean. My shift to CC seems to have been a good move. I resisted at first because they wouldn't give me the $10/month deal as I had a version of PS that didn't meet their criterion. But after I talked sweetly to them they gave me the deal anyway. This was a good few months before it became more widely available and I get the impression they were ready for that type of complaint and a potential change too their pricing.
I just wish I used PS more than I do, but I just don't have the time for the more manipulative end of PP.

[Hamster]

So apart from photo PP, if you are going to use a MAC as a substitute platform for Windows, but still need to do Windows type work (read "Microsoft") then it may be wise to stay with Windows.

Our just stick a copy of Windows on Boot camp or parallels and you can hop into it whenever you like.
I understand Office for Mac is getting some love in the near future.

[ameerat42]

(Hamster. I just fixed your posts above, where you quoted Jim and Granville. You deleted a square bracket in each one. Restored both.)

[ricktas]

I would have to say PC for me. I can build them from scratch, replace anything that needs replacing etc. I find Apple in general a very 'closed' system where upgrades/changes to hardware are not as easy as opening up the case and slipping in a new graphics card, cpu etc. I have stuck to PC simply cause I can change my system hardware easily.

[Kym]

You get more bangs (Ghz, Gbytes etc.) for your dollar from a PC

[I @ M]

------ will be used pretty much exclusively for photography processing. -------
Given this computer will be used mainly for photography processing what would be your recommendations for both PC & Mac? --------

Going back to the original situation ^^^ and avoiding the inevitable mac vs pc stoush I wonder if any one can point to any compelling reason to spend twice as much ( approx ) money on a mac over a pc for similar specs.


What is the optimum Monitor size & type?

A good quality monitor is a "must have" especially if you want your final output to be printed. Size wise depends a lot on your available desktop area and thickness of your wallet. Certainly these days a 24" seems to be at the bottom end of the scale.

The type is fairly easy, a good brand IPS screen that can be used in conjunction with a colour calibrator. Popular brands for photo editing seem to revolve around NEC, Dell, Eizo and Samsung.

This, sadly is where the thickness of your wallet plays a part. :eek:

[Hamster]

(Hamster. I just fixed your posts above, where you quoted Jim and Granville. You deleted a square bracket in each one. Restored both.)

Cheers! I've been posting via Tapatalk while out and about and it's easy to delete the wrong things or get useless auto corrects.

[MissionMan]

I use Mac and PC extensively. I have a Surface Pro 3 and a Macbook Air, both exactly the same spec.

For personal use, I'll take a Mac every time. For business (corporate), I'll take a PC due to the file compatibility with Mac and Windows versions of Office, Outlook on Windows etc.

For photos, I actually think you can't go wrong with Mac, particularly when it comes to photo editing. If you look at something like the new iMac retina (go into a store and look at it because its only when you see the screen that you realise how good it actually is), the quality of the screen is really out of this world.

From a user perspective, I find OSX a lot more user friendly than Windows. Windows seems to be harder and more steps to do virtually anything, but if you're coming from Windows, you need to factor in the time it takes to get used to the changes and the ways of working. It's an easy transition but it's a transition nevertheless. As an example, if I want to open 10 files in photoshop, I simply drag them to photoshop on the task bar. If I want to open them in a different app, I do the same. If I want to email them, I drag them to Outlook. No right click, file open with, select app, can't find the app you want, browse all apps etc.

From a photoshop and lightroom perspective, there will be no learning, there are minimal differences and I can switch between them on my mac and PC easily.

I think people often saying that on bang for buck, windows machines are better, but there isn't much with a 5K screen that can compete on price with the iMac retina as an example, the cheapest 5K screen is only a grand cheaper than the iMac and the iMac includes a high spec machine. Also bare in mind that if you build up a machine with the fastest gear, it doesn't necessarily mean it's the fastest as PC magazine found out. There were higher spec machines that actually performed slower than the Mac Pro and what they found was Apple had gone to a lot of effort in making sure the parts worked well together rather than just grabbing individual parts and throwing them together.

Its not to say Apple doesn't have its issues and there are things I hate (like iTunes which is so horrible, even Microsoft would be embarrassed to admit they made it), I have my fair share of issues on both machines, but Apple do a better job of making the machine work out of the box.

[ricktas]

if I want to open 10 files in photoshop, I simply drag them to photoshop on the task bar. If I want to open them in a different app, I do the same. If I want to email them, I drag them to Outlook. No right click, file open with, select app, can't find the app you want, browse all apps etc.



You do realise that you can do that on PC. I use drag and drop all the time to open a photos in PS or attach to emails etc?

Seems to me, that most 'issues' surrounding use of either system, pc or mac, are user related, not the actual system. People generally find a way to do something on their computer and stick to it, without considering there might be a faster an easier way. We are all creatures of habit.

I have a programmable gaming mouse on my editing computer, and have programmed all the buttons up to open up/do things in editing. For example, I use a high pass sharpening action that I made for photoshop for most of my image sharpening. I have assigned that to a button on my mouse, so as soon as I want to sharpen, one click and the action runs.

Most issues people encounter in computer use, can be resolved. It is funny how we often do things to hard way.

[MissionMan]

You do realise that you can do that on PC. I use drag and drop all the time to open a photos in PS or attach to emails etc?

Seems to me, that most 'issues' surrounding use of either system, pc or mac, are user related, not the actual system. People generally find a way to do something on their computer and stick to it, without considering there might be a faster an easier way. We are all creatures of habit.

I have a programmable gaming mouse on my editing computer, and have programmed all the buttons up to open up/do things in editing. For example, I use a high pass sharpening action that I made for photoshop for most of my image sharpening. I have assigned that to a button on my mouse, so as soon as I want to sharpen, one click and the action runs.

Most issues people encounter in computer use, can be resolved. It is funny how we often do things to hard way.

Hi Rick

You might be misunderstanding what I mean.

With Windows, you can drag it to the application while it is open but try pinning the application to the task bar and dragging the file to the application while it is pinned to the taskbar which is the easiest place to do it. It doesn't work for me, at least not in Windows 8.

So in short, I can have different commonly used applications pinned to my task bar and I can drag a file to my application of choice at the time and it works consistently across every application in OSX without having to have them open at the time.

I agree on the users being used to working a particularly way, but I work on both, started on PC and I find OSX more intuitive and works better out of the box.

As a simple example, with the surface pro 3 (which is a tablet and laptop), Microsoft enabled the full desktop login out of the box. The offer a simple picture login and a 4 key login like an iPad, but they unabled the least user friendly way out of the box and that's on a device they own the hardware and software. Why make it as hard as possible when every owner I know has gone for the simplist option because it's hard typing a network login on a tablet? If it's required for network authentication a network admin could enable it as part of their standard process, but to create a consumer device and do something like that makes no sense. That's the issue with Windows, it works but you have to put in work to do things that Microsoft should be doing out of the box.

[torro]

I think if you use a PC stick with it. I have used both windows based computers and apple. My preference is a MacBook Pro. Yes you can build a better spec windows computer cheaper than apple. The latest windows operating systems have been a disappointment compared to the earlier systems in terms of reliability and performance.

[enseth]

Thank you all for the contributions. Very interesting reading indeed. I'm impressed with the feedback and with the logic used to support arguments. Much appreciated everyone.

[arthurking83]

..... but try pinning the application to the task bar and dragging the file to the application while it is pinned to the taskbar which is the easiest place to do it. It doesn't work for me, at least not in Windows 8.

.....

It just sounds like 'another' way of rightclicking those files, and using the 'Open with' context menu.
Afterall, if you are dragging the files into an application, then you must be viewing those files in a file browser of some varietry.

Ctrl or Shift click the files as needed, rightclick and use 'Open with' in the popup menu.

FWIW: if you drag a file(eg. an image file to the program icon in the taskbar, Windows should explain that performing such an operation is pinning that file(or files) to the program context menu for that programs icon in the task bar.

What this means: if you drag your image(eg. DSC_0001) to the program's task bar icon(eg. Lightroom .. or in my situation CaptureNX2/ViewNX2) it then pins that image into a new menu for when you rightclick the programs taskbar icon .. where it then gives you the option to open that image again. ie. a shortcut to the image directly from the taskbar icon if you want.

While I don't do this with images .. I generally open a few times, but not forever and ever!
But I use this for files I regularly and recursively open time and time again(eg. my accounts files, and various other text files, word files .. etc that I know I'm going to open again and view or edit or whatever at some point again.

I also do this with all my drives, so when I rightclick the Windows Explorer icon in the taskbar, i get a long list of all the drives connected(about 8 in total!) .. and I also do this with many directories I regularly access(such as where I download files and suchlike).

Not many folks know this, and once you teach them .. even these folks that have grown up with Macs only!(I have one I deal with everyday at work) ...
He's hooked on using the Windows Key + Tab method of switching between programs.(I personally prefer the Alt+tab method).

In the end, there is no real difference other than the different methods of achieving the same thing.

As for the screen .. without knowing the actual hardware specs(I have no knowledge of the respective screen's hardware specs) .. it's hard to make a direct comparison between the price/cost of each of the mentioned screens. Do they use the same panel? if so do they use the same hardware .. ie. is one 6bit and the other 10bit .. etc, etc.

The annoyance with replacing a 5K retina display over an older 4K model, is that you need to replace the entire computer all over again to get the benefit.
When most folks probably already have a more than capable computer to drive a 4K display, why make them pay the extra $500 (or whatever it cost) for a new computer .. when all they wanted was the upgraded display!
I think the idea, or notion of an all in one PC and screen system is flawed on many fronts .. ie. a more environmentally sound system would have been to have the units connected together to appear as an all in one design, but in a modular form.
That is, push a couple of clips, release a large bricklike box mounted to the rear of the screen, replace/update screen .. connect bricklike box to the back of the new screen ... so you have your old computer hardware(ie. without the need to redo all your files/programs/tweaks/etc to a new system) .. and you have a new screen!

[MissionMan]

without the need to redo all your files/programs/tweaks/etc to a new system) .. and you have a new screen!

Ah, but if you used Mac you'd know that you never have to redo all your files and programs. Just plug the two machines together and start migration assistance and your new machine looks exactly like the old, down to your wallpaper, software activation's and your passwords. :D

[arthurking83]

I still reckon that it'd be overall much faster to simply plug and play(eg. a new screen), than to migrate data all over again.

Then it begs the other question .. what do you do with an old computer, especially if it's perfectly usable .. and all you may have wanted was an updated screen.

I realise(probably more than most) that an old computer has many and varied uses .. I have my 10yo computer still sitting on the floor here ... still waiting to be set up as a NAS at some point(it's been about 4 or 5 years).
But this is just the box .. no screen.

I tend to recycle old computer parts in various ways .. give old screens to various people(friends, work .. whatever).

[ricktas]

Hi Rick

You might be misunderstanding what I mean.

With Windows, you can drag it to the application while it is open but try pinning the application to the task bar and dragging the file to the application while it is pinned to the taskbar which is the easiest place to do it. It doesn't work for me, at least not in Windows 8.


Ah yes. I did misunderstand what you meant. Thanks for the clarification