New point-and-shoot?

[BillW]

Hi guys. My wife and I last weekend brought out a box of prints of a lengthy European trip we were lucky to take (pre kids!) in the early - mid 80s. We were blown away by the clarity of the shots. They bring everything back in brilliant colour, reminding us of exactly what we saw. And so, I am looking to replicate that beautiful camera in the digital age.

Our camera (I still have it - couldn't bear to throw it away - but it hasn't been used for 20 years) is a CANON AF35M.

We could be driving along, RHD van in a LHD country, see an image we wanted to capture, hold the camera to the interior of the windscreen and, still in motion, point and shoot. Faultless! The manual built-in flash (pre red-eye) was great to about 3 metres. The Canon lens had a ring to adjust ASA, it was fixed 38mm 1:2.8. It is currently set at 200ASA, so I must have chosen that for the northern light. Screwed onto an outer ring is a 48mm Skylight (1B) Hoya filter. Altogether it weighs 500g including the strap.

I don't get much photography done these days. Partly this is due to time and commitments. But also, I have a beautiful CANON 7D and some USM lenses that always seems to be at home when I want them elsewhere! I think if I had an uncomplicated, compact and lightweight camera like my old one above, I would store it somewhere in the car and take it with me often.

Any ideas and suggestions please!?

Bill

[torro]

look at the sony rx 100 series , there are 3 models, check out the early models. They are much cheaper then the current model.

[Brian500au]

I always carry a Canon S110 - small and compact but still gives a great little photo. I usually set it in "P" mode so either my wife or myself can just grab and shoot with it.

[BillW]

Thanks so far. Meant to state that my now less-than-young eyesight favours having an adjustable viewfinder. To see a back screen in most light situations requires me to fish around for my glasses, which somewhat defeats the see, point and shoot philosophy (I don't need glasses except for reading).

The Canon S110 looks great except for this, and the price point is more interesting.

[swifty]

A few points are jumping out at me from your back story and is pointing me towards recommending a Fuji X100T (newly announced but not yet available).

Your old P&S had a fixed focal fast aperture lens.
You like the colours you got from film
You want something lightweight
To be honest a lot of cameras these days are highly configurable and you should be able to get the results you want but it takes varying amounts of effort to get there.

The X100T uses an APS-C sensor, not quite the 135 film format size but its gonna be close in terms of the look. (The only 'full frame' fixed lens option these days are the Sony RX1 series but they are quite dear.)
It has a fast 35mm equiv FOV f2 lens
Built in flash with red-eye reduction
Weighs 440g
Excellent straight out of camera jpegs with many 'film' simulation modes. Other people's opinions may vary but I'm a big fan of Fuji colours and I've read particularly good comments about the new 'classic chrome' film simulation that replicates Kodachrome.

Andrew (I@M) and forum member Kaiser here use an X100s and have user reviews posted in the product review section. Fuji has a habit of updating firmware frequently so the classic chrome film simulation mode might make it into past models. The X100s could be well worth considering if the X100T is out of budget. They are actually quite close in specs sharing the same basic sensor and lens but the X100T has improved on the Viewfinder experience.

I'd definitely recommend you check it out when it reaches stores. Its the 3rd generation in its line and looks to be quite the refined product.

[BillW]

The Fuji looks exactly what I had in mind, but it is $1,300 US. See http://www.dpreview.com/products/fujifilm/compacts/fujifilm_x100t. But I do like the sound of the chrome setting.

How about the Canon G16? Just asking. Canon are offering $50 rebate til end September so probably a replacement due. It seems to have a lot of the same dial settings as my 7D, easing the learning curve. And as Brian expresses, I'm sure it can be left in a point-and-shoot setting for quick shots.

[arthurking83]

I second Swifty's suggestion.

Have used the X100(Andrew's) briefly, and while it's ergonomics aren't for me(taste and physical preferences on my part) .. it is a great little camera.
It is a bit pricey at around $1K or so .. but if quality is something you don't want to skimp on, it may end up being cheaper than a lot of other cameras of similar size and specs due to it's very high quality output.
i.e. you will be less likely to want to update to a newer model in the short to medium term.

[swifty]

Also, its Photokina time next week and there will be a flurry of announcements leading up to the show. We're in the midst of it.
I'd just hang out a week or so to see what pops up. Even if the new ones are out of budget, out-going models will be on run-out sales soon.

[BillW]

How about the Fuji x30 as a compromise, saving nearly $500?
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/fujifilm-x30?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=features&utm_medium=sidebar-block-Homepage&ref=features

[swifty]

You can also have a look at the Fuji X30 if the X100 series is out of budget.
It uses a small (2/3") sensor but still largish for a compact P&S
but
you get fast 4X zoom lens.
You also get the film simulation modes including the new 'classic chrome'.
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/fujifilm-x30

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lol.. you beat me to it. Hadn't refreshed my browser before replying.

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Just a few more comments. In the high end compact P&S segment, the 1" sensor is where all the action is.
The best currently available are the RX100 series as Torro suggested but they have been expensive since they were essentially without peers. Although quick successive iterations (mk I to III) have brought prices down on the earlier versions that are still very good.
This is where the X30 falls short slightly in that the sensor is smaller. But it has a lot of other things going for it.
But we're likely going to see 1" sized sensor premium compacts in the Canon G line and Panasonic LX line among others.

But not to be confused, the X100 series can't be compared equally because the quality is up there with the best of APS-C sized DSLRs and mirrorless cameras, and arguably better because of the matched lens. Hence why the big price difference.

[bitsnpieces]

I also support the suggestions of the Fujifilms.

The RX100 series are great (MIII is only good if they update it properly), but (although I haven't used the Fujifilms - I did use an older version of them) and I also guarantee you'll be happy with them, with regards to quality (it's just they're a little big for a point and shoot though).

[BillW]

I have to keep reminding myself that my old Canon was not an expensive camera - it had a good bright lens and was foolproof. Also, as stipulated, I am talking about a unit to leave under the car seat (as far away from heat as possible). So, yes, the part of me that habitually buys quality gear does like the Fujis, or the Sonys, but I am not going to leave a $700 camera, or more, lying around. So, much as I'd love one of these units (and may get for home), I feel I am still looking for a knockabout replacement for this old Canon. Even the x30 is around $700. Thinking of it, that might be what I'd pay for a new phone (reluctantly). But having said that, is there nothing recommendable around the $300-400 mark? There still is the Canon G16 for about $400 less $50. Anything else remotely in that price point of the same or better output?

[griffljg]

I'll throw the proverbial cat among the pigeons here. Back in late 2012, I paid a visit to my native South Africa, taking all my Olympus 4/3 camera gear with me. While in Cape Town, I decided that I needed a P&S camera and so went out and bought a Canon PowerShot S100 (http://www.dpreview.com/search/?query=powershot%20s100&product=canon_s100). This little beast had two major attractions for me:- As I always process my photos (I can't stand skew horizons.), I required a P&S that stores files in raw format. The S100 also has built-in GPS, which is great for taking pics when travelling. I was very pleased with its performance until the very helpful people at OR Tambo Airport helped themselves to both my TomTom GPS and the S100.

On return to Australia, the S100 no longer being on the market, as the Olympus XZ2 had just been released, I bought one: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/6489685206/enthusiast-compact-camera-roundup/5 It has an Olympus Zuiko Lens with an effective 28-112mm zoom range, which is also quite fast (f1.8-2.5). An electronic viewfinder is available as an optional extra. I notice that they are currently available in Australia for in the vicinity of $300.

The quality of this little camera continues to amaze me. I just wish it had a GPS! One down side:- It is just a bit big to be "pocketable", unless you have baggy pockets. Mine lives in my briefcase.

[bitsnpieces]

Hi Bill,

Given the new information now about how you plan on using it, I would personally recommend the Sony DSC-WX350
http://www.sony.com.au/product/dsc-wx350
You can find it cheaper online of course

I've used the WX300 - it's no DSLR, it's not "good ol' days" camera, but it was a camera I was happy with nonetheless. Worthy it works well for you or not, is another story.

The only reason I recommend this is because I liked the quality the camera provided.

Though I haven't tried the Canon PowerShot G16, nor all of the latest and greatest from Canon, I have not been impressed with many of their PowerShot and IXUS range from the past few years.
Again, this being said, the WX300 wasn't perfect, but I was more impressed with it more than the Canons.

Just to throw it out there, I've had a Samsung Smart WB350F before
http://www.samsung.com/au/consumer/camera-camcorder/smart-cameras/compact/EC-WB350FBPWAU
Which I thought was a nice camera. It's a little bigger than the WX300 (and WX350), but it can function like a DSLR, allowing you to run in manual mode and stuff. I really enjoyed it's dual recording fuction, that is, record video while taking unlimited photos at the same time, and then when playing back, if you find a shot you like, extract an image from the video in camera. But... wasn't quality wasn't anything special... Who knows what their current range is like (WX3000 sounds to be decent) and the price is still close within your budget, sort of.

Anyways, this is just my spin on things. I think you should definitely give the G16 a try, if you can demo it instore, because I like the fact that it has a hotshoe for extra attachments, unless this is something you're not interested in, then you can look into the WX350 too)

[bushbikie]

I'm a Canon fan-boy from way back. When I was looking around for a P&S to take with me when hiking I settled on the G1X - almost APS-C sized sensor - capable of capturing in RAW format - f2.8~5.8 zoom lens with a variable focal length of 15.1 to 60.4mm (35mm equivalent of 28-112mm) - IMHO very good quality glass, and Image Stabilisation - a LOT lighter than my DSLR.

I use the rear screen when shooting, as I'm sure most other G1X owners do. The optical viewfinder is next to useless - no info in the viewfinder, and when shooting wide the viewfinder adds a lovely compositional element (called the lens barrel) into the bottom left hand corner of the viewfinder. To give credit to the optical viewfinder it does have a diopter adjustment of -3 to +1.

All in all, for what I want the G1X to do, it does it admirably.

If you want to have a look at some of the images taken by users of the G1X then have a stickybeak here: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1151374

[BillW]

Thanks all. Going to a few shops today and taking your notes.

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All in all, for what I want the G1X to do, it does it admirably.

If you want to have a look at some of the images taken by users of the G1X then have a stickybeak here: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1151374

Some interesting comparisons here: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-g1x-ii/canon-g1x-ii-image-quality.htm

[BillW]

Been to the megamall. Overall a disappointing experience due to all shops mainly having not the latest models, or all makes. But it was instructive.

The first report is that I like a chunkier style. I found the Sony RX series too small and fiddly. Does that resonate with any of you? JB had all of this series up to Mk III.

The one I liked most of their stock was a Fuji x10 selling for under $500 with leather case thrown in. It was their last one, out of the showcase. I'd have loved to be able to handle an x30 but no shop had it, or even an x20 in stock. But, presuming it is the same shape and size, I can rely on reports and reviews to fill in the picture (a pun, I know).

Over the aisle, Camera Shop had no Fujis, a Canon G1x (not Mk II) for $499 that I could play with and a Nikon P7800 at $599. These were an interesting comparison, in that no-one has recommended a Nikon, so I know little about it. It was about the same format as the Canon but noticeably lighter. Reading many reviews, I find myself going off the Canons, not particularly impressed with their range of test photos.

I have a history of waiting for the best and buying more than I probably need. I waited years before plunging on my 7D. Given this, the odds are that I may go for an x100t even though it is probably double or more than I intended to spend. It seems to answer my specs the best, Fuji have been listening and improving it over the years, and models with similar specs will not be getting any cheaper soon.

But I will try to give the x30 a go too. One reviewer of the x20 liked the improvement in speed of AF over the x10, which is very important, although he didn't think the newer Screen Recognition mode was an improvement on the previous EXR mode. I wonder if the x30 has improved in this respect, if needed.

That is where I am at the moment. Won't be buying for at least a few weeks, and further advice and comments most welcome.

Bill

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A nagging thought in my head. My old Canon (at the head of this thread) had no zoom. And I am even now marvelling at its prints, almost always 7x5, my default favourite size. It was just a superb lens exposing excellent film.

Are there cameras to recommend that meet a somewhat direct comparison, i.e. no zoom, excellent sensor? Haven't some of the most iconic photographers always shot like this? I am not really a photographer of panoramas, flowers or birds. I admire those of you who are. My shots are more of people, streetscapes or memories.

[bitsnpieces]

I would say that the Fujifilm x10, x20, and x30 are similar sizes - can't remember which one it was that my friend had, but I liked it better than the Sony WX300 I had (I only preferred the WX300 due to size, but quality wise, my friend's Fujifilm was the go - the quality of WX350 will be similar to the WX300)

If you're happy for the price of the x30, then you should get it. If not, the x20 is pretty much the same, just less gizmos like no flippy screen, x20 battery life isn't as good as x30, x20 uses optical viewfinder were as x30 uses electrical.
The lens is perfect for what you've put down as that's the range it covers, 28-105mm, f/2-2.8

The x20 and x100t look to have very similar features, other than improved OVF on the x100t, slightly better buffers for burst shots, etc, all in all, they're fairly even and I would say the quality is just as good (I don't own either and this is speculation - true, x100t has a bigger sensor and runs at bigger megapixels, but the size of the receivers may inevitably still be the same as what's in the x20/30, so quality would be very similar)

I would go for the x20 (x30 because I like EVF, but for budget purposes) because I personally like the idea of having a 28-105mm lens, rather than a fixed lens. I like being able to zoom and as mentioned, you like taking photos of people, having that slight zoom does make a difference depending on what you're trying to do. And f/2.8 at the tele end isn't that bad is it? That's my spill. I think I'll end here as this is as much as I can offer.

Also, don't be afraid to shop online, you'll be able to get better prices - found the Fujifilm x20 at $409 at Techrific - based in Victoria.
Topbuy who has a NSW store has it at $420.
http://www.shopbot.com.au/pp-fujifilm-x20-price-410956.html

Good luck Bill :)

[Brian500au]

ok I am going to throw a real curve ball at you - what about a Canon SL1 with a 40mm pancake lens? As I originally mentioned previously I bought a Canon S110 to keep in my pocket - but like yourself I am not a big fan of EVF (and my wife is less of a fan).

I recently picked up one of these SL1's for under $500 with a 18-55mm STM zoom. I am looking around now for the 40mm pancake so it will be even more compact. If you were considering the size of the G series canons then this is around the same size.

[BillW]

Excellent curve ball Brian. I've since watched some youtube videos of both the camera and the lens. From these, I think I will reject the camera but may invest in the lens to use with my 7D. It may entice me to use that camera more! Small as the SL1 is, for my specs it is too fat, or thick, if you know what I mean. A Fuji x20 for example can be slid into a jacket pocket without too much problem but not, I think, the SL1.

For the sake of my question, which may be something I don't necessarily want, are there any fixed focus point and shoot cameras - with a good sensor - and a viewfinder - but less than Leica prices?

[bitsnpieces]

There's not many:
http://www.popphoto.com/news/2013/07/best-aps-c-fixed-lens-compact-cameras?page=0,0
http://gearpatrol.com/2013/10/09/prime-time-5-best-fixed-lens-cameras/2/

I still recommend the x20 - has everything you need, optical viewfinder, great quality photos day and night, lots of options and functions, great lens attached. Sure, it isn't fixed, but I prefer zoom - that's just me.

Just my 2 cents :)

[swifty]

The x20 and x100t look to have very similar features, other than improved OVF on the x100t, slightly better buffers for burst shots, etc, all in all, they're fairly even and I would say the quality is just as good (I don't own either and this is speculation - true, x100t has a bigger sensor and runs at bigger megapixels, but the size of the receivers may inevitably still be the same as what's in the x20/30, so quality would be very similar)

Not really understanding by what you mean by size of receivers. Do you mean the pixel pitch?

Anyhow, I can't say I agree the X20 being comparable to the X100T.
IMO, though both very capable in their own right, the two are very different cameras.
Small sensor zoom vs large sensor prime.
Image quality on the X100T would be up there with the best of APS-C whilst the X20 is more in line with the better P&S such as the RX100 series.
Of course this IQ advantage on the X100T will depend on how the camera is ultimately used.

[arthurking83]

Another option not yet opened up is Sony's two new Q series 'camera' modules.

If you already have a smart phone, these small devices seem to fit the bill well.
That is, a small compact camera module(basically just the sensor and a lens) that can be stored more compactly than any traditional camera can be.

Various setups are available with respect to sensor size and or lens combinations, up to the point where you can get just the sensor without any lens and add any Sony E type mount lens to it as you see fit. (that'd be the QX1 model).
The other three devices in this range of products are the QX10 with a 10x zoom lens, the QX100 with a larger sensor(1") and (only)3.6x zoom lens, and the QX30 with a small sensor again and 30x zoom lens.
The QX1 has an APS-C sized sensor but requires the additional purchase of at least one lens(obviously adding to the cost yet again).

Had any of these products been available 2 years earlier, I'd have got at least one of them for my daughter, instead of the Samsung Galaxy Camera I got her(she was 10 back then and wanted more of a fun toy rather than a proper camera).

The only caveat with these types of devices is that you already own a smart phone type device(or a tablet, or whatever).
They come with the necessary attachment doodles that you need to fix the module to the smart phone, but aren't strictly required. The module connects via a wireless connection to the host device(phone/tablet/etc).

To my mind, the QX1 and QX100 are the two devices obviously aimed at the more photographically minded consumer than either the QX10 or QX30 are.
Looking at the specs of the QX100, and then looking at the specs of a RX100III(proper compact camera) .. the lens and sensor module appears to be the same hardware. Lens specs are the same, and sensor specs are the same. There are some very minor differences, and they could be important to you or not.
ie. the QX100 appears to be an RX100III minus the physical handling hardware(dials, buttons, knobs, and rocker switches).

The major downside of the QX module tho is that it doesn't shoot in raw format(where the RX camera does).
The other downside would be that the battery couldn't possibly last as long on the module, as a larger battery would on the camera.

.. anyhow, something else to muse over.

[swifty]

For the sake of my question, which may be something I don't necessarily want, are there any fixed focus point and shoot cameras - with a good sensor - and a viewfinder - but less than Leica prices?

Many fixed focal P&S cameras with good sensors but not many with a built-in viewfinder.
Some are quirky eg. Sigma's DP series.
There's a Ricoh GR that I really like and have used (but not own) and a Nikon variant called the Coolpix A that started life considerably more expensive than the GR but similarly priced these days I believe.
They don't tend to come cheap though (as in <$500 type pricing) even during run out sales.

Of course with budget considerations I won't mention the Sony RX1 series and Leica X P&S cameras :)

How bout a second hand X100s? I still think the X100 series fits the bill the best but would avoid the first generation X100 if you want to consider used cameras.

[bitsnpieces]

I believe pixel pitch is the term, yes. What I said may be a incorrect and a little out - but just trying to say that the x20 is a very capable point and shoot camera, and for the budget Bill is putting out, I would agree with that recommendation. If he wanted to spend more, he can do it on accessories for the camera, rather than shelling out a thousand just for a camera and no accessories, unless he doesn't plan on having extra accessories.

Now for the wild tangent which you can skip if you like :)
So let's compare pixel advantage:
x100t is 16.3MP, image size of 4896x3264, sensor size 23.6 x 15.6mm
x20 is 12MP, image size of 4000x3000, sensor size 8.8 - 6.6mm

Based on how they calculate pixel density advantage for the a77 and a7r (http://www.robsphotography.co.nz/Sony-SLT-A77-A7R.html), I want to see the advantage of the x100t over the x20.
16.3/4896 x 1000 = 3.3
12/4000 x 1000 = 3

So now the area of one pixel:
For the x100t is 10.89
For the x20 is 9
Not bad...

To reconfirm, working it out again another way - pixel density (http://www.laesieworks.com/digicom/MP.html)
x100t - 16.3 / (2.36 x 1.56) = 4.43
x20 - 12 / (.88 x .66) = 20.66

So working out the density again from the other method:
For the x100t is 2074.58
For the x20 is 4545.45
Yep, the x20 is more dense.

So what does this mean? In essence, yes, the quality will be different. X100T is definitely the better camera.
Here's a review I found: http://www.the-owl.co.uk/reviews/fuji-x100t-review.html

But here's when software and hardware play in too.
Lens is a big factor, in having the right lens to capture what you want.
http://www.mdavid.com.au/photography/pixeldensity.shtml

Also, software wise, I love my Sony WX300. Sure, it's only a point and shoot, it's not DSLR, but it has given me amazing photos. Having used my friend's x10 (at least if I remember now, it is the x10, where the x20 is an improvement), I would take the x20 over the WX350 (upgrade of the WX300) any day. Fujifilm processed their images better than Sony. I am confident with the x20's performance in low light - sure, it's no x100t equivalent, but it works well enough.
At the end of the day, results is the only thing to go on: http://www.bestmirrorlesscamerareviews.com/2013/03/27/fujifilm-x20-low-light-performance-test-at-the-national-cinema-museum-of-turin/

I found a comment from someone looking at the sample images:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3725088
Interesting for what they say the quality is like.
Here's the sample images: http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/x/fujifilm_x100t/sample_images/

Regarding the QX series from Sony, definitely a great option to look into - only problem is software implementation from Sony is horrible. Bill is looking for a fast and reliable camera right? The QX is still just a gimmick for now - who knows what the future holds for it, once Sony's software division get decent programmers.

Tangent over.

[richardb]

Any handphone or an iPhone 6 ? Ye can mail your shots immediately. :th3::th3::th3:

[swifty]

Hi bitsnpieces,
Sorry but you lost me on the calculations.
Firstly why are you comparing pixel density?
X20 has a pixel pitch of around 2.2microns (X100T ~ 4.7microns) and a pixel area of around 4.84 square microns (X100T ~ 22 square microns).
But your pixel density figure is correct at 20.66pixels/cm square. Yes the X20 has a far denser sensor but that's usually not a good thing.

Anyways this site has done the figures for us:
http://www.digicamdb.com/compare/fujifilm_x20-vs-fujifilm_x100t/

In short, X100T has fatter pixels (4.7X the area) and more of it (16 million vs 12 million).
I'm sorry but there's no contest between the X100T and X20.

[arthurking83]

.....
I'm sorry but there's no contest between the X100T and X20.

Yeah, you can clearly see this(that the APS-C sized sensor is clearly better) in DPR's image comparison tool.

[BillW]

Gee guys, great responses. Your interest very much valued and I'm glad you've found my post worthy of comment. Where to start?

Starting with richardb. My kids are on to me about updating my smart phone. As mentioned above, my eyes struggle with LCD displays in less than optimal conditions. So I have been considering newly superseded models, most impressive so far being the LG G2, really bright display of about the largest size that might slip into a pocket without being too big. Don't know about its camera. I seem to be noting that all the different phones have different camera plus points. I think for me the more important points would be low light capability and flash that includes functioning as a torch. And I don't really take movies so that is my least important requirement. Your comments more than welcome.

Moving back to cameras, I note that my beloved old Canon that I am trying to replicate was a fixed focal 38mm. I know that is considered not wide enough by many and most of the fixed focal cameras so far discussed are about 28mm. Is that right? Including the x100s? And the Ricoh GR and Coolpix A, which I admit do look great? But the point here is that I liked what the old camera gave me.

To achieve this result might have me revert to a quality small zoom range or look again at the pancake 40mm as suggested by Brian.

Or we come back again to the x20 or even x30 as my ideal compromise, perhaps a second hand x20.

Or, as Swifty said in post#10, the 1" sensor is where all the action is - I might at this stage get a pancake lens to try with my 7D, a new (nearly) phone, and wait to see what emerges in the next period, hoping the 1" sensor market throws up a competitive mix to choose from.

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As an add-on, I noted at the outset that my old camera had Skylight [1B] Hoya filter. It is so long ago that I can't remember why I chose that particular filter. Could it have had something to do with being in comparatively low light northern climes at the time? And so, now for Australian climes, what everyday (no special effects) filters are favoured here?

[arthurking83]

with the filter, you'd choose a skylight filter for more harsh light conditions. The skylight filter gave a slight pinkish(warming) effect on many films in their heyday.

with digital, this is no linger needed, as the warming/cooling/colouring effect is best done via whitebalance adjustments(or colour editing).

for any digital camera, these types of filters(UV, skylight, etc) are of little use or effect.

Do consider a polariser filter tho. They can optically enhance images in a manner that no digital filtering effect can.

[swifty]

The X100 series are 35mm equiv, the Coolpix A and Ricoh GR are 28mm equiv. The latest Sigma DP 1 2 and 3's are 28mm, 50mm and 75mm respectively.

Actually if you need a new smartphone anyways, that might not be a bad idea. Most smartphone cameras are in around the 30mm range of focal lengths and are getting pretty darn good.

Just to give you some idea of upcoming products, the Canon G7 X just leaked. The Panasonic LX100 rumours are running rampant.
And you can bet just about every major camera company will have entries in the premium compact soon, if not primed for announcement imminently.
But they won't come cheap I believe. But you know what competition does to prices :)

[bitsnpieces]

Hi swifty, yes, I agree with everything you're saying, and the numbers I was throwing out was just hoping to illustrate it more. I didn't know about the site you linked, couldn't find one like it, so I didn't have those fancy graphs unfortunately :D

But regardless, I still stand by the point, X20 is the way to go, if the budget is going to be a deciding factor. It's no prime, but it's still a high quality lens, with zoom ability.
My focus this whole time has always been the budget, so all recommendations and posts is focused on this.
But if BillW is happy to fork out more, heck, go for gold.

[BillW]

Happy to report two conclusions. I have just bought under EBay's 15% off window an LG G2 and the Canon pancake 40mm, both from DWI, total for both $486 incl del. Looking forward to the voyage of discovery.

On cameras, I intend to wait, again valuing Swifty's report of rampant rumours. Just before my decision above, I was starting to look again at the Pana LX-7, which along with the Leica D-LUX 6, seemed to fit into my wish for a fast lens, limited zoom, etc. Even now, if I can spot an absolute bargain for the LX-7 I might be tempted, and get one of the accessory viewfinders. These two cameras really seem to appeal to me, "at the moment".

All best to all of you who have helped me come to these decisions.

Bill