Sigma 24-105mm F4 DG OS HSM Art or Cannon EF 24-105 f/4L IS USM [Archive] - AusPhotography:: Australia's Premier Photography Forum::

Langers

15-08-2014, 10:10pm

Soooo, I was talking to a guy in a camera store the other day about a possible Canon 24-105 f/4L purchase and he said the Sigma Art 24-105 is sharper, faster and cheaper.

Anyone on here got any real world experience with one? Read a heap of reviews online, but can't decide between the two, also never know if the staff in the store are getting told to push Sigmas for a bonus for the month. I used to work in retail and know what goes on at times.

Also happy to hear other recommendations, not looking to save the $$$ to compromise IQ, would rather just get the best I can at the moment.

Going to be a general/walk around lens.

Any advice is appreciated.

William W

18-08-2014, 2:53pm

I have not used the Sigma Lens.

Generic answer: I have a Canon DSLR kit and I use only Canon Lenses.**

The main reason that I choose to use Canon Lenses is the guaranteed compatibility: lens //camera // flash.

And also the leverage that I have over Canon if ever any non-compatibility presents -there is absolutely no leverage with Canon and very little leverage with any third party lens manufacturer if a third party lens and an EOS camera and/or dedicated EOS Flash Unit, do not perform as is expected and as is described, by the Canon Manuals and Technical Papers.

I think that nuances of “sharper” etc, when comparing 3rd party and EOS L Series Lenses are less important than having a compatible system that is guaranteed to be compatible and where I have the leverage to insist that my kit functions as described within that compatibility.

I further think the nuances of “sharper’ considering the Post production correction sharpening tools that we use, is even less important.

Others’ mileage will vary.

WW

**Footnote:
For “fun” with my 5D Series Cameras - I do have some lens adapters to use older manual lenses that I have in my Film Kits; and also a Pinhole Lens that I have made that I use with my 5Ds

ameerat42

18-08-2014, 3:05pm

Langers. Look them both up on DPR, then compare the prices, then decide.

From "all reports" "Σ Art" lenses nothing to sneeze at, so can even leave your hankie at home.

As for leverage with any company, well, a long lever might be as useful. Else, the coy itself is leveraging you to buy their stuff.
Am.

arthurking83

18-08-2014, 5:13pm

FWIW: an important consideration to factor into the mix when talking about sharpness is how much sharper is YOUR copy of the lens going to be compared to how sharp the copy of the lens you didn't get instead.

ie. sample variation across the product you got, vs sample variation issues for the product you dismissed.

If the price for the Sigma is a considerable amount below the Canon lens, then it makes sense to go with the Sigma on this point.

Looking at Lenrental's site .. sample variation across both these lenses shows very little advantage for one lens over the other as a model.
Simga is definitely sharper at the 24mm end(where it usually makes less difference), but a the middle and longer focal lengths you'd be hard pressed to see any real benefit between either.

As for WW's comments re compatibility issues .. Sigma seems to have learned a very important lesson ... let us sort out compatibility issues if they arise.
With the Art series lenses, you can download and install any firmware updates that Sigma releases to resolve compatibility issues.
in years gone by, this could only be done at a service centre .. very annoying when the problem is only a firmware update!
For this reason, plus the ability to adjust the lens as you may require for your own purposes .. I'd say go with the Sigma(+USB dock, which I think sell for less than $50).

William W

18-08-2014, 11:34pm

. . . As for leverage with any company, well, a long lever might be as useful.

Maybe that’s your experience.

But it remains my opinion, based upon my experience, that one has more leverage if one is complaining about the malfunction of CANON’S own product as described by them as to how THEIR product should work with their other products, rather than complaining about someone else’s product which CANON specifically note may not work as expected with a Canon Camera.

Certainly same has much more leverage in the arena of Consumer Affairs Complaints: and that doesn't take much effort, nor money, for one to raise any non-performance issue into that arena.

*

. . .

Sigma seems to have learned a very important lesson ... With the Art series lenses, you can download and install any firmware updates that Sigma releases to resolve compatibility issues.

Indeed.

I agree that Sigma do have an history that they needed to address.

But the logic behind the suggestion that it is a matter of simply downloading “the solution” is simply flawed, as one can only download 'the solution', if a solution actually exists.

Backwards compatibility is NOT fait accompli and that is the flaw in the logic of that argument.

Slim may the chance maybe that there is an issue of non-compatibility, it is not the answer to suggest that the solution is simply "to download the solution”.

***

Recently noted regarding 3rd party lens issues: some Tamron lenses (70 to 300 as a recent example) seem to exhibit a dysfunction with the expected Canon Back Button Focus protocols.

WW

arthurking83

19-08-2014, 9:06am

if concerning oneself about future possibilities is a major factor, then all probability issues should be addressed to balance the equation.

Going on recent history, Canon's 24-105/4 is more likely to break on you at some point in the future than the Sigma 24-105/4(that we know of)
The Sigma is only a new lens so has, as yet, an unproven track record .. but the C 24-105mm has.

That I remember, I think 3 AP members have experienced issues with this lens.(could be more, but three that I can remember)
The Canon's issues has something to do with an error displayed on the camera.

Maybe someone with more insight can explain it more accurately.

Mechanical issues are a rare occurrence between lens and camera, but electronic issues can surface.

I'll assume that the issue with the Tamron 70-300 is for the most recent USD VC model, and not the older mechanically driven AF model?
if so, then a firmware fix from Tamron is most likely to be the fix, if a contact error isn't the issue.

But in part, you're right WW.
Manufacturers sometimes introduce incompatibility issues during the life cycle of the product.

Nikon recently did just this with a couple of cameras. I can't remember the exact details of the issue, but as I remember, the Df and D5200 had firmware updates released, that broke compatibility with some Sigma lenses.(not all .. just some)
Sigma was quick on the ball .. and any Art(or Sport) series lens would have had a firmware update available for download as soon as they worked out the problem.
Any older lens, even many of the discontinued items that could be addressed, had to be taken into a Sigma service centre to have the firmware flased.
SOME!! lenses(listed on the Sigma site) couldn't be updated due to some technical issue .. but IIRC those were of long discontinued items.

I suppose the main point I'm trying to make is that if you worry about lens-camera incompatibilities, then a Simga Art or Sport series lens(ie. any that is compatible with their USB dock is far less likely to be an annoying issue).

bricat

19-08-2014, 9:15am

Soooo, I was talking to a guy in a camera store the other day about a possible Canon 24-105 f/4L purchase and he said the Sigma Art 24-105 is sharper, faster and cheaper.

If that was actually true Canon would not sell any lens, nor Tamron or Nikon. I much prefer to buy the brand associated with my product than aftermarket. That is not to say that other products are not good. I buy aftermarket mainly because I cannot afford the genuine product. If they are both near the same price genuine is the go as William alluded to. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so is sharpness when it is a close call. JMHO cheers Brian

ameerat42

19-08-2014, 9:36am

Brian.
(You need to put the [/quote] at the end of the bit from Langers that you're quoting.)

About what you said, I think "any lenses" is a bit wide. "Some lenses", maybe, but even that's not Langers' problem.

Preferences are preferences, that's not in doubt.

Am.

William W

19-08-2014, 5:28pm

. . . all probability issues should be addressed to balance the equation [of a purchase]. . .

I agree.

The history of the ribbon breakage in the EF24 to 105 is a consideration.

As was the mirror box assembly of the EOS 5D.

Both of these are examples of concerns and considerations as why one would not buy that particular product, but are not an example of a general consideration as to why one would not buy other brand of lens.

As I mentioned in the first line – mine was a ‘generic’ response to the OP and merely articulating two of the reasons why I use only Canon lenses and Canon dedicated flash units and not third party.

*

The issue I mentioned is with the VR functionality of the Tamron 70 to 300: the lens's VR non-conformity with the expectation of how the VR and the Back Button Auto Focus should work.

As I understand the issue: specifically the expected functionality with a Canon EF Lens having Image Stabilization active and with the camera set to BBAF, the that the IS on the lens will be activated by either BBAF and/or Half-depress Shutter Release: however this is not so with the Tamron VR Lens. It appear that the VR is ONLY activated by BBAF - hence a specific advantages (or uses) of BBAF are void. For one example: to lock focus (by releasing BBAF) but allow VR/IS to remain active via the Half-depress Shutter Release is voided.

I came upon this issue by way of my responding to a specific question about BBAF and IS, (but I not knowing that the lens was not a Canon Lens and that we were actually discussing VR). I was most insistent as to how BBAF and IS would work; but it was only after a couple of days that it was revealed to me that the lens was not a Canon Lens but a Tamron Lens.

Subsequently I have sourced reports that this is so with other copies of the same lens and also some other Tamron Lenses.

I make no expectation on whether or not Tamron can manage a retro-fix: I was merely using this as an example of why I do, what I do in so far as not buying 3rd Party Lenses.

*

I suppose the main point I'm trying to make is that if you worry about lens-camera incompatibilities, then a Simga Art or Sport series lens(ie. any that is compatible with their USB dock is far less likely to be an annoying issue).

I understand your perspective and comments on the Sigma Art Series Lenses. Yours is a most sensible and balanced comment, IMO, but I still probably won’t buy one.

*

In general conversation, I am not usually so detailed about the whys of my personal preferences: but the OP (on another thread) indicated that he wanted the best and also indicated that there has been quite a lot of money spent and will be more money spent on quality glass for specific uses, whereby he wants to “buy once” and once only.
These facts lead me to believe that the OP might benefit from the disclosure of these minutia and nuances, which could possibly be considerations in his buying choice.

WW

I @ M

19-08-2014, 6:34pm

The history of the ribbon breakage in the EF24 to 105 is a consideration.

As was the mirror box assembly of the EOS 5D.

As are many considerations with any brand.

The issue I mentioned is with the VR functionality of the Tamron 70 to 300: the lens's VR non-conformity with the expectation of how the VR and the Back Button Auto Focus should work.

As I understand the issue: specifically the expected functionality with a Canon EF Lens having Image Stabilization active and with the camera set to BBAF, the that the IS on the lens will be activated by either BBAF and/or Half-depress Shutter Release: however this is not so with the Tamron VR Lens. It appear that the VR is ONLY activated by BBAF - hence a specific advantages (or uses) of BBAF are void. For one example: to lock focus (by releasing BBAF) but allow VR/IS to remain active via the Half-depress Shutter Release is voided.

I came upon this issue by way of my responding to a specific question about BBAF and IS, (but I not knowing that the lens was not a Canon Lens and that we were actually discussing VR). I was most insistent as to how BBAF and IS would work; but it was only after a couple of days that it was revealed to me that the lens was not a Canon Lens but a Tamron Lens.

Subsequently I have sourced reports that this is so with other copies of the same lens and also some other Tamron Lenses.

Must have been a while ago because I bought that lens for a young lady with a 550D or 650D ( can't remember which ) about 16 or 17 months ago and the VR/IS/VC worked perfectly either on the shutter or back button. The lens is still going strong in far away Germany to this day and certainly represented a large saving with, from what I can see, no lack of quality when comparing the Canon equivalent.

but the OP (on another thread) indicated that he wanted the best and also indicated that there has been quite a lot of money spent and will be more money spent on quality glass for specific uses, whereby he wants to “buy once” and once only.
These facts lead me to believe that the OP might benefit from the disclosure of these minutia and nuances, which could possibly be considerations in his buying choice.

In this case he is probably better off buying the best which from all accounts I have seen taking into consideration the known fault with the Canon lens would be the Sigma ----

Seriously, "off brand" bashing based on hearsay is so 1990's.

ameerat42

19-08-2014, 9:14pm

(Bricat, I fixed up the quote in your post above, as you had probably exceeded the 1 hour edit time limit. Am.)

arthurking83

19-08-2014, 11:22pm

.... whereby he wants to “buy once” and once only.
....

This is all well and good, and on the whole to be considered handy advice.

There is never a guarantee that you won't strike any compatibility issues with third party lenses.
On the whole the percentage of issues between Brand A camera and Brand X third party lens will be a low value.
If it weren't, then the third party manufacturers would be struggling to stay afloat, let along offering new improved designs and models almost every other month(i.e, Sigma's latest series of Art lenses as an example .. all at the top of their field in terms of overall performance!)

But something that is known and as has already been referred too is the problem with the Canon 24-105/4 lens.

While the Canon may be a great lens, and no one could tell the difference between images shot with it or the Sigma 24-105/4 .. there is a possibility that this lens may break at some point in the future.(with it's history as a guide)
But as of now, no known compatibility issues nor durability issues exist for the Sigma lens.

In terms of 'buy once and only once' ... the prize(by default) would have to go to the Sigma lens if that were a criteria to judge the lens with.
It comes down to the choice between something we know may go wrong(with a history of problems) ... or the possibility that an issue could arise with product A on the basis that issues have arisen with unrelated products B,C,D,E and F .. no other conclusion makes sense.
And with the safety of mind that should a random anomalous event arise with the product, the manufacturer of product A has provided a means to resolve the issue quickly and easily!

On that basis, the choice should be easier than it usually is.
The point being, to use the data we know of as a guide .. not to predict the future on the basis that a random event could arise based on unrelated events.

There is nothing wrong with being brand loyal. I almost certainly would be myself too if it weren't for the disappointment that Nikon had provided me with just one product(actually two products, but the second is a different issue).

William W

20-08-2014, 7:41am

. . . Seriously, "off brand" bashing based on hearsay is so 1990's.. . .

The issue with the Tamron Lens was reported a few weeks ago.

The views I gave were my opinion and reasons for them. One doesn't expect everyone to agree and to do as one does - but a forum is a place where opinions are given for consideration.

***

To the particular comment that you make above - the example of the Tamron Lens, with much detail so that the OP and others might consider the relevance to their own buying considerations, was based on what I consider valid reports and as such are no more "hearsay" that your reporting of the lady using her lens.

And in these regards the readers make up their own minds as to what is relevant and what is not.

WW

I @ M

20-08-2014, 7:46am

To the particular comment that you make above - the example of the Tamron Lens, with much detail so that the OP and others might consider the relevance to their own buying considerations, was based on what I consider valid reports and as such are no more "hearsay" that your reporting of the lady using her lens.

I define hearsay as when people repeat that which they have read or been told but have not actually experienced themselves. Maybe I didn't make it clear in my initial post but my observation of the Tamron lens was from my own hands and eyes when operating that lens on the camera and not from repeating what I had heard from "valid reports".

Ahyao17

20-08-2014, 11:44am

Just wondering what about considering Canon EF 24-70 F4L ?
Image quality is better than the 24-105 and is a newer lens, only disadvantage is that you miss the 70-105 end.
Also has a bit of macro in it. Price is not too much more expensive
Since it is new, built quality hopefully is better, there have been a few minor updates and changes in the 24-105mm (I heard someone saying this as he has bought and sold and rebought resold 4 24-105mms over the years for various reasons)

Dont get too fixated on the quality of the lens they normally would last longer than you would need.

William W

20-08-2014, 11:55am

Andrew,

Thanks for clarifying. You are correct. I did not understand that you had made specific tests with the lens.

In that case I consider myself fortunate that, at that time several months ago that you particularly carried out the exact detailed and specific tests as I described above.

So, now I have conflicting reports: these three reports all concern what appears to be the present release Tamron 70 to 300 VR Lens.

You'll understand that from my perspective, these reports are all "hearsay" using your definition, but I still actually ere on the side of referring to all three as "valid reports", as I reference them the future.

Specifically two reports are by users and they indicate the precise issue as I described above and these two users made the specific tests a few weeks ago.

On the other hand, you report that there was no problem when you made these exact same tests, several months ago.

There must be a logical reason to satisfy the conflict of these reports and that is a puzzle: a puzzle which I have now on my agenda, to solve.

I don’t yet have any idea what that logical explanation could be for the conflict in these three reports. Do you?

WW

I @ M

20-08-2014, 1:42pm

Specifically two reports are by users and they indicate the precise issue as I described above and these two users made the specific tests a few weeks ago.

On the other hand, you report that there was no problem when you made these exact same tests, several months ago.

Yes, the camera was set to back button focus ( I was trying to convert the lady into using it ) and the shutter was activating the VR function in both continuous AF and when focussing and recomposing. Yes, I had heard stories of issues with that lens concerning focus etc and that is why I checked all functions.

There must be a logical reason to satisfy the conflict of these reports and that is a puzzle: a puzzle which I have now on my agenda, to solve.

I don’t yet have any idea what that logical explanation could be for the conflict in these three reports. Do you?

I would start looking at which particular model the bodies that are reported to be having problems are and then see if there has been a firmware update applied to them that may have caused a dysfunction with the lens.
As I said earlier, I can't recall the model that the lens was on but it had 50 in it and it wasn't sparkling new so by the dates it must have been a 550. I checked at the time as part of the overall going over of her gear that it was on the current firmware and it was.

Bennymiata

20-08-2014, 4:48pm

I haven't used the Sigma lens, although I do have some other Sigma lenses that I'm very happy with, but I've been very happy with my 24-105 Canon L lens.
Great colour and contrast and the autofocus is very quick and deadly accurate on both my 5D3 and 60D.
As they are so close as far as IQ etc., then think about the re-sale value. A used Canon L lens will always be worth quite a bit more than a Sigma equivalent after you've used it for a while, and will be easier to sell because it is a known quantity.
Mine has taken 100,000's of shots and never had a hiccup and it's been in all sorts of terrible conditions and just taken them in its stride.

ameerat42

20-08-2014, 4:54pm

...A used Canon L lens will always be worth quite a bit more than a Sigma equivalent after you've used it for a while, and will be easier to sell because it is a known quantity.
...

Benny. It's statements like this that I find irksome. And that is ONLY because they are standing as advice yet are presented as
assertions, and thereby are made to have the force of facts.

Is there any evidence Langers - or anyone - could refer to? Testimonials are just those, and there have been plenty in this thread. Even they are OK
because they are presented from one's own experience, even as you have in the rest of your post.

I hope you see what I'm getting at.

Am.

William W

20-08-2014, 6:10pm

Yes, the camera was set to back button focus ( I was trying to convert the lady into using it ) and the shutter was activating the VR function in both continuous AF and when focussing and recomposing.

Thank you for that definitive statement. I will assume "the shutter" means "Half-depress Shutter Button".

I checked the two other transcripts that I have of the unexpected functionality of VR and BBAF and both cameras reported are EOS 600D.

I'll start a new thread if and when I have more information.

WW

I @ M

20-08-2014, 7:37pm

I will assume "the shutter" means "Half-depress Shutter Button".

You assume correctly.

Langers

21-08-2014, 10:43pm

William W

22-08-2014, 10:04am

. . . Oh and not saying that the Canon is not sharp and a great lens otherwise I would not be considering it just been told that the Sigma is a hair sharper and better build quality from the reviews I have read.

For clarity – I did not say nor did I mean to imply that the Canon EF 24 to 105 F/4 L USM was the best Canon Lens (Image Quality) that I have: or that it was sharper or better than than the Sigma. In fact I don’t think I even mentioned that I have that Canon Lens. Mine suffers zoom creep, add that to the list of possible "don't buy me" reasons.

What I do find is that the 24 to 105 is an incredibly good zoom compass on a 5D Series Camera: ideal for “every day” or “walkabout” or “holiday” uses.

Both the two Canon EF 24 to 70 F/2.8L lenses are “better” in all other aspects than the 24 to 105 F/4L IS, but I find the Image Stabilization is a most fantastic feature to have in across that zoom compass. Not wishing to replay what has already been written – but that’s the main reason why I wrote what I wrote, because I gleaned from your other thread that you too valued Image Stabilization.

And the extra telephoto end is quite useful when travelling with only one lens or with a very light weight kit.

As I mentioned in my first response: I have not used the Sigma.

Perhaps, in any case the best option for you is to fossick around camera stores until you find a Sigma Lens that you can test out.

Even shooting several frames in the camera store renders very valuable information. I did that with the Tamron 24 to 70/2.8 VR that I was considering for a Video application – it took about 2 weeks to find one in a store over this side and I had to travel a bit to use it, but it was worthwhile waiting and using the lens with a specific purpose of testing it.

Good luck with your choice.

WW

Fruengalli

22-08-2014, 10:39am

AAAAnd back to the original question. I've got the 24-105 (came with my 5DII) & haven't had any issues with it at all (so far). Sharp & quick & an excellent all rounder on the full frame. I have recently bought a 35mm & 50mm Sigma Art primes & both are quite stunning for the price & the ability to micro tune for the body is an added bonus. Sigma has leapfrogged Canon in a lot of areas lately (particularly on their older lenses). Haven't used the Sigma but all reports are very good. The one thing is that they are not weather sealed like the L's if this is a concern.
Cheers

ameerat42

22-08-2014, 4:49pm

Thanks for the replies guys. So does anyone actually have any real world experience with this particular Sigma Lens? Think that is the way I am leaning. Oh and not saying that the Canon is not sharp and a great lens otherwise I would not be considering it just been told that the Sigma is a hair sharper and better build quality from the reviews I have read.

Thanks again for all of the info and insight.

LAngers, sadly not. The CLOSEST I can come it taking a 2ple of shots with the 105 version, but the bloke was NOT (with a capial N) selling that one, and after a while I deleted them. Nothing great
that I took, just items on a bench. He showed me a few pics and they were quite good. But even a 2nd time (later) he still did not want to sell it.

But Fruengalli mentioned weathersealing... I cannot find that in the specs for the 150. (http://www.sigmaphoto.com/product/150mm-f28-ex-dg-os-hsm-apo-macro-2)
Am.

Some time later...
- - - Updated - - -

What a head!!! Why didn't I think of this before, (https://www.flickr.com/groups/1586815@N24/) Langers?

I just said "flickr sigma 150mm macro" to Google, and off he went...

Langers

23-08-2014, 11:41pm

What a head!!! Why didn't I think of this before, (https://www.flickr.com/groups/1586815@N24/) Langers?

I just said "flickr sigma 150mm macro" to Google, and off he went...

Now why didn't I think of that. :lol2: cheers, will come back to you.

twister

11-09-2014, 12:32am

I'm in the same boat at the moment...trying to decide between these 2.

I'm still leaning for the Canon though...

Tannin

11-09-2014, 1:02pm

Going on recent history, Canon's 24-105/4 is more likely to break on you at some point in the future than the Sigma 24-105/4(that we know of)
The Sigma is only a new lens so has, as yet, an unproven track record .. but the C 24-105mm has. That I remember, I think 3 AP members have experienced issues with this lens.(could be more, but three that I can remember) The Canon's issues has something to do with an error displayed on the camera. Maybe someone with more insight can explain it more accurately.

Not relevant anymore, Arthur. There is a known problem which was discovered some years ago and has been designed out in all new-build 24-105 f/4L lenses. The production change was implemented quite a while ago - about three years, from memory. The new-design part is fully compatible with older-build lenses and is supplied to repairers as standard, so anyone striking the problem with an old 24-105 who has it fixed can be confident that the problem won't recur. In a new lens, of course, it isn't an issue.

arthurking83

11-09-2014, 1:27pm

.... In a new lens, of course, it isn't an issue.

Aha! .. didn't know this(not being a Canon person).

But the point was more along a generalization that potential problems can occur in any instance where two separate parts can be connected to form a single device.
(as a response to WW's reply that because the other lens is a Sigma, and in the past Sigma lenses have had communication issues with Canon cameras .. etc, etc).

If a problem is documented well that there is a known issue between product X and product Y, I tend to avoid product X or Y .. not the manufacturer that produced it.

Nikon is also well known to break compatibility between it's own products too(I dunno about Canon). Where they produce a particular product that works perfectly with almost all of their accessories.
Then, some years later, produce a new accessory and they introduce some weird incompatibility between this new accessory and some of their older products .... turns out Nikon to Nikon products can be a bit of a lottery too!(hopefully Canon avoid such irritating 'advances' with their products).

I like it when manufacturers offer the ability to fix compatibility issues out quickly, easily and efficiently(ie. Sigma's newer lenses and the USB dock system. :th3:)

Tannin

11-09-2014, 7:11pm

I agree, Arthur. We are way too prone to think that all products by Manufacturer X are just the same as the one and only Man X product we are familiar with, where in reality they all have their great products and their duds. You just can't say "Pentax Model XYZ was fantastic, therefore all Pentax products are fantastic". Or vice-versa. You have to look at each case on its merits, and if there is a major camera gear manufacturer around making every product to the same standard that's news to me.

By the way, Canon are very, very good at ensuring compatibility between their many different products; it's one of the nicest things about the company. (And possibly also a contributing reason to their sometimes sluggish and conservative product release schedule: I think they like to dot "i"s and cross "t"s, and the wait for new stuff can be annoying.) Of course, there are product likes that are explicitly not designed to work together (full-frame cameras and EF-S lenses is the obvious example) and advertised as such, but apart from that, non-cross-compatible Canon gear is very rare, and (in my experience) the exception is made quite clear in the product documentation.