Wonder what Juliar is thinking?

[Mark L]

:rolleyes:
"Jeez, I only broke one promise."
"Phoney Tony and Smokin' Joe might have stopped the votes."

Be kind and have fun.;)
:(

[Duane Pipe]

Life Sucks Mark. One gives a little and the next take the lot! :beer_mug:

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Hasn't Tony made some enemies:cool:

[Kym]

This thread has the potential to get heated, keep the discussion on topic, non personal and legal (no gun threats, even in jest)

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/the-alp-budget-boobytrap/story-fni0cwl5-1226923077146


WHEN Labor realised it had no prospect of surviving the 2013 election it made a series of announcements that will haunt the country for years to come. Labor said there would be an aggressive ramp-up in spending on schools, hospitals, and disability sometime after 2017. The date was carefully chosen. Budget estimates are published over four years. Labor knew it would never have to show the spending increase and, more importantly, how it would be paid for, in any Budget it delivered.
These promises were popular — better schools, better hospitals, disability treatment for all, and what’s more came at no discernible cost because the costs were outside the then Budget forecasts. It allowed Labor to look visionary. If the programs were ever delivered then Labor could claim credit for “Labor” reforms — Gonski funding, the NDIS and so on.
If they weren’t, then that would prove the heartless Liberals had cut them to pieces.
It was surreal. Labor couldn’t deliver promises in the short term — like a Budget surplus in June 2013 — so it started making promises for the long term. It couldn’t deliver Budget promises when it was in office so it began making them for a time when it would be out of office.
It is common for retreating enemies to blow up supplies and infrastructure so as to deny them to enemies that are advancing against them. Labor took that approach — quite rational if you don’t mind the damage it does.
As the Coalition advanced on the September 2013 election, Labor completely booby-trapped the forward estimates of the Budget.
At the time, I recommended the Coalition not commit itself to this unaffordable spending.
Labor was making promises it knew it would never have to keep. Giving bipartisan support would leave the burden of trying to do the unattainable squarely on the shoulders of only one party — the incoming government.
Eventually the Coalition committed itself to four years of the Gonski funding and to the NDIS, but with some leeway as to the time when full services will be introduced.
In this Budget, the new government has now announced it will not be delivering Labor’s supposed increases for schools and hospitals over the period from 2018 to 2025.
It is being attacked for “savage” cuts of $80 billion.



Personally I think the budget could be done better, but in the end everyone wants something for nothing, which can't fly.

[Mark L]

Juliar might be thinking, "Yep, fair enough Kym. Though Tony knew all that before he made such black and white promises before the last election."

Of cause I'm only guessing what she's thinking, though I'd encourage others to guess, since that's the thread tittle.;)
:)

[bobt]

The fundamental issue in my view is the astonishingly blatant manner in which Abbott has betrayed the voting public. Hypocrisy is becoming the hallmark of his "reign" when he now does exactly what he criticised Labor for doing, except 10 times worse!.

I cannot see how one can trust anyone who makes such clear and unequivocal statements before an election, and then immediately afterwards does exactly the opposite. One expects a certain amount of truth bending from politicians, but such total dishonesty is pretty much unprecedented.

I will be more convinced about political fairness when they collectively make the same "adjustments" to their own salaries as they do for pensioners. If the CPI is a fair mechanism to use, then it should be applied to politicians wages as well; if lower income earners are to absorb permanent reductions, then MPs should also have permanent reductions.

This whole "budget emergency" is a fairy tale created to justify Abbott's actions, when all indicators point to an economy which is one of the world's best! If you strip away the propaganda from both sides of politics, and rely on the objectivity of independent, qualified observers and economists, it is pretty clear that this budget is unnecessary, unfair and unjustifiable.

[Ionica]

According to a Queensland (?) politician recently, their salaries are determined by an independent body and they are 'obliged' to accept the determination. Must be hard for them.

[Granville]

Wonder how obliged they would feel if they independent body determined that they would go down.

[Duane Pipe]

The health system is struggling now without further cuts. And what harm will come of the cuts education?


I agree bobt

This whole "budget emergency" is a fairy tale created to justify Abbott's actions, when all indicators point to an economy which is one of the world's best! If you strip away the propaganda from both sides of politics, and rely on the objectivity of independent, qualified observers and economists, it is pretty clear that this budget is unnecessary, unfair and unjustifiable.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/senator-lashes-out-as-pollies-given-another-5500-pay-rise/story-e6frfmci-1226416182460

[Nick Cliff]

There was an interesting response to a radio interview on 4BC in Queensland with Clive Palmer discussing politicians superannuation ,the ABC QLD radio internet discussion that followed the interview attracted at least 3000 responses !

[fenderstrat1963]

Maybe she's realising the wisdom of the truism:

How do you tell when a politician is lying?

Their lips are moving

[Bennymiata]

I think that politicians should have to pass the SAME means test as old age pensioners!
Why should we pay super rich people ANY sort of pension?
Most of our ex-PM's are worth tens of millions, yet we pay them a HUUUUGE pension and other benefits!

Mind you, as Maggie Thatcher said "Socialism is wonderful, until you run out of other peoples' money."

[Lance B]

We are in debt to the tune of $300 Billion and that every man woman and child owes approx $15,000 each even before they get out of bed. And remember, this is YOUR debt, not the governments debt so how do you like being lumped with a debt of $15,000 each which we have to pay back at some stage? This debt has been forecast to blow out to over $600 Billion if nothing is done about it, or almost $30,000 each!! To think that this is a good thing, just look at Greece, Spain, Italy etc, all basket case economies thinking they could just keep borrowing money hand over fist living the high life and hoping it would all just go away. Youth unemployment in Greece is something like 25%!! The thing is, they have the luxury of Germany and the rest of the EU to help bail them out, we have nobody to do that for us. What I object to is that the (previous) government racked up this debt spending money and partying like teenagers being left in charge of the house when the parents have gone on holiday and now it is the adults that have to now fix it. I wouldn't mind so much if we had something to show for it, but there is NOTHING, not a damn thing we have to show for it. No new roads, no new hospitals, no fast train, no major infrastructure other than a white elephant NBN which still hasn't been finished and is destined to blow out to $100 Billion. Where the hell did the money go?

[Sifor]

Healthy economy, low taxes, good services. Choose two.

Only thing in the budget that is of concern to me is indexing the HECS debt to the 10yr govt bond, I'll be getting rid of mine ASAP before it is introduced in 2016... I am undecided on university deregulation, as I can see arguments on both sides have merit.

GP co payment is a measure I support. Funny how attendance rates have plummeted (despite the levy not even applying yet!)... people can't be that damn sick. I acknowledge a very small number of people might find $7 to be difficult, however the protection measures built in should adequately provide for them. Pensioners and disabled should be exempt however. For everyone else, I have no sympathy... it's 2 coffees worth, harden up. The medical research fund is a great idea provided it's not plundered by cash strapped governments.

I'm glad foreign aid was cut back, charity starts at home after all. If our country is prospering, I have no problem helping other countries in need, however we need to get our own house in order first.

Ultimately we can't keep going down the path of entitlement. While I regard Howard as one of the greatest PMs Australia had, he carries some of the blame for this welfare state we find ourselves in... the previous labor mob made the situation worse. Fact is, welfare is to keep you going, not to provide a glamorous lifestyle. Far too many of my friends at Uni who are on youth allowance don't work yet manage to go on overseas holidays on the gov'ts coffers. Same with newstart, it's a rort. Glad the DSP is being looked at but really not going far enough - if you're disabled fine, but the 'I got a bad back' is usually a load of tosh.

Australians are just to used to the good life. As the mining boom progresses from the investment stage to the production stage, we're no longer in a position to throw money around like it's never going to end.

Oh and if I hear one more idiot who screams out 'WHY TONY DID YOU BUY $100BN OF F-35'S!!111111!!1' I will poke their eyes out. Same with Tony Burke saying 'BROKEN PROMISE', what about the carbon tax?

Infrastructure building is the medicine Australia needs, as it ensures spending does not fall away while creating jobs and providing for the country. Hope Tony lives up to his reputation as 'the infrastructure PM'.

Hopefully the gov't can negotiate with Crazy Clive to get the budget through the senate....

[geoffsta]

This is Julia's effort, and that's with the carbon tax that she wasn't going to have.
All is good when we get the opportunity to take. The hard part is giving it back. Politicians don't run the country. Greed does..

109238

[Mark L]

"I'm glad I didn't have to deal with Clive.":)

[aussie girl]

It seems the every time a Labor Government gets in, they try to improve health, education and social services, the Liberals rip them to shreds. Don't forget that when Howard was in he had a huge surplus, from memory about 60 Billion??? but by the time he was voted out, he had spent half of that surplus on carrots to dangle before the voters. All these schemes came out of the woodwork, baby bonus, paid parental leave, just to mention a couple. This left labor with bugger all to put their plans in motion. If the government of the day gave up trying to bad mouth the other side and each party cooperated with each other, just think what could be acheived. Most of this debt has been generated from government overspending. We (the tax payers) are still paying salaries (pensions) to politicians who retired decades ago, and their spouses, not to mention their gold air ticket, their super funds, which they can access immediately, no working till they're 70, and the lurks just go on and on and on. It is time the pig in the trough got put back in the pig pen

[bobt]

There are a lot of misconceptions out there about Labor's debt, and whilst some spending was inappropriate, not as much as Liberal voters seem to think. The fact remains that under labor our economy remained one of the best in the world, and the various billions of dollars people like to scream about are not actually out of proportion when looked at in relation to global and national budgets. However, let's face it - if you are one of those who believes in Tony and voted for him, then facts and logic are not likely to change your mind.

What the problem is, in my mind, is the structure of western governments. Having two opposing parties means that a hugely disproportionate amount of time and energy is wasted in arguing with each other and preparing for the 4 yearly elections. If you examine the focus of both parties, it is largely defensive and in no way collaborative or based on compromise. If that wasted energy were to be directed to actually creating practical solutions rather than political ones, we would all be better off. One look at a parliamentary sitting illustrates how futile the process is - and it provides an absolutely dreadful role model for our children.

We elect people who are supposed to be our representatives, yet who are in no way representing anything except the party line. We need a truly representative government where we vote for someone we believe in rather than someone who represents a political party. They should truly represent our wishes and vote accordingly. Partly line voting only exists because there are parties. Similarly, we should not have ministers in charge of portfolios who are not experts in their fields. If someone is, say, the Minister for Transport, then he should be someone from that area - an expert in transport. Under the current system, any politician can be put in charge of something he knows nothing about.

The problems we face are those of structure, and until society creates a new framework we shall continue to have this relentless battle between parties whose sole function is to disagree with the other side. What we need is one representative government whose sole function is to do what's best for the country, based on information from competent, qualified advisers. Yup ... a pipe dream, but in my view one which would produce a better country and society.

By the way, I noticed someone here supported reducing foreign aid, and i must say that I wouldn't subscribe to any policy which advocated such selfishness. One look around our society and a look around impoverished nations should be enough to illustrate the fact that we can well afford to help others who live in extreme poverty. We sit here with our wide screen TVs, expensive cars and health systems while they live in huts living off garbage. I simply cannot understand the mindset that would turn our backs on those people so that we can live in even more luxury!

[Warbler]

Ahe's probably still dreaming of Kevin. Afterall government was all about them and not us.

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Ahe's probably still dreaming of Kevin. Afterall government was all about them and not us.

[geoffsta]

Wonder what Juliar is thinking?
The green dress, or the white dress. Now which shoes.... Hmmm.. Handbag???? Oh... Pension day Thursday.. Beauty, I'll be able to carpet the mansion...


WHO BLOODY CARES :confused013

[Nick Cliff]

I asked a person who was a top economist about Australias debt and he said that we have always borrowed as a nation to fund growth ,two world wars etc, and the trick really is to keep the economy expanding at a rate that can service the debt.The point is blind freddy can see we will now have to reduce unproductive expenditure and invest in things that can grow the economy and attract people to get ahead in their endeavours.With our aid programs we really should concentrate on our neighbuors strategically to help ensure peace ,stability ,and good governance.With defence it is important that we maintain an effective technological advantage with the rise of China and India to our north with these nations reverting to their pre colonial areas of influence .It appears the paid parental leave scheme is wisely on hold for the time being until some serious income can be derived from our emerging natural gas exports in the next few years.Democracy is an evolving fluid social experiment with our country being an interesting one,apparently President Bill Clinton was asked if he thought a perfect form of democracy existed ? he replied that Australia probably came closest in his opinion.We can be pretty hard on ourselves as a people ,really we are not going too badly,regards Nick.

[Lance B]

Good post, Nick.

[Snpsht]

Interesting....I object to my tax going into the pockets of companies such as Glencore Xstrata via subsidies when those same companies hide all their profits in tax havens and dodgy tax minimisation (avoidance?) schemes so they pay NO tax and get unfettered access to Australia's natural resources. I'd actually like my taxes to be used to help educate Australian children and pay for health care etc, not to go directly into the pockets of multinationals. I'd like them to contribute too - after all, they are making massive profits from stuff thhat belongs to all of us.

Collect taxes from corporations, close superannuation loopholes for the very wealthy, and ensure th big banks don't steal people's money. It's not the little guy who occasionally needs assistance who is the "leaner", it's the corporations and wealthy who have made an art form of avoiding paying any tax whatsoever and believe they are entitled to do so.

The age of entitlement needs to end for those people, not for the pensioner who has worked all their life, or the single mum, or the student trying to get an education so they can get a decent job and pay their taxes.

The current government is simply shifting wealth from low and middle australians and creatinng a pool of unemployed so they can force wages down and further imrpove their own position.

They are not governing for the people, they are governing for themselves and people like ex-australian Mr Murdoch, who pretty much control the sh#t we, the public, are fed.

end rant.

[Bally]

There are three things I would like to see. Twitter and facebook revolution anyone?
1. BAN ALL POLITICAL DONATIONS
2. create website that all candidates get 30 minutes to explain their policies created by a govt funded studio IE ABC.
3. BAN ALL OTHER POLITICAL ADVERTISING Maybe run the candidates policies segments on a govt TV station too

And a personal dream, now we are getting close to having the technology, move from representative democracy to direct democracy with the control party proposing laws that EVERYONE gets to vote on.

All of the above raises some really interesting outcomes, name as many as you can :-)

Just my 1.88 cents worth

[Steve Axford]

And a personal dream, now we are getting close to having the technology, move from representative democracy to direct democracy with the control party proposing laws that EVERYONE gets to vote on.


An interesting idea. I first came across this in a SciFi book by Frank Herbert, the Dosadi Experiment I think. In it the Demopol (a system where everyone got to vote on everything) was totally manipulated by those who controlled the flow of information and the timing of, and the questions to be asked. Perhaps the internet would level things out a bit, but the control of information and the agenda is crucial. I'm not sure that I like the idea. It sounds like crowd control.

[Bally]

Yes, I came to this idea when we were discussing the sorry shape of Australian politics at a BBQ. We were discussing how very simplistically, representative democracy came about when the cities got too big for everyone to cast a black or white stone to vote on something. With the tech being where it is today, it should be possible for everyone to cast an electronic stone on any law proposed. It is a very loose idea which would need lots of work and I'm doubtful if it could ever happen. But it was a very interesting discussion point. The main one was that it would destroy the power of pressure groups. You can't pressure a whole country like you can a single pollie.

The idea of stopping political donations is a much more realistic and serious idea. I have spent some time in the US recently and their politics is where ours is heading. The right is full of nut jobs, the left is full of nut jobs, the center is ignored, and anyone with enough money buys influence. How in a country with 350 million can they think that two guys from one family and a husband and wife represent the 4 best people to run the country for 16 to 32 years. Cause unless you are rich and can buy media influence you can't run. We have seen what money can buy in Australian politics recently, and I think that bringing all candidates to an even field would let us see more choices more clearly and eliminate some of this them and us politics. I struggled to find out exactly what the independents in my electorate even had to say, so I ended voting based on the only 4 choices that could be called informed. A lot of good people and good ideas are being kept out of politics cause of the sound bite nature of the so called news organizations. We see little good analysis, we get daily issues, and no follow up. The behavior of both sides of politics in recent years has been atrocious and we are worse off for it.

I don't know if my ideas for change are good, but a change is certainly needed. My finger in the air polling suggests that no one thinks that the politicians really have the people and country at heart. This is the crime. With great power comes great responsibility and we hold very few of these arse-wipes to account. Really the crim Craig Thompson is a classic. The punishment for a pollie holding the electorate in the sort of contempt he did, should be more than a slap on wrist and being bailed out by donations from political supporters.

The system might not be broken, but it is surely damaged.

[Steve Axford]

Our political system surely needs work, but then it always will. One thing that should be done is having a permanent corruption investigation (standing Royal Commission or something like that). The NSW experience demonstrates that, and there is no indication that federal politics is any better (eg Craig Thomson, but I'm sure it doesn't stop with him). There is a saying that "you get the government you deserve", and in many ways we are to blame for our government, but we never voted for corruption and that can be minimized if we try.

[Bally]

Excellent idea. And real punishments for politicians that get caught. Jail time.

[Mark L]

.... You can't pressure a whole country like you can a single pollie.

.... A lot of good people and good ideas are being kept out of politics cause of the sound bite nature of the so called news organizations. .....

And you don't think one particular news organization influences a lot of people already?
Don't give them more reason to "inform" people how to vote on to many things.

[Nick Cliff]

The younger voters now appear to use the internet for news from many sources now hence Barack Obamas surprising success .The Chinese emperors used to call salarys for public servants anti corruption fees [no beating about the bush] , hence the Chinese proverb ,power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.With any society we will always need independent checks and balances with real powers ,before anyone points out the bleeding obvious ,yes Queensland lacks an upper house in state politics and is prone to interesting legal and ICAC appointments.One person jokingly said to me from Newcastle, you QLD guys will need a passport if going interstate at this rate,to this I replied ,yes there is a galaxy far away ,and its called Queensland regards Nick.

[ameerat42]

Oh, *sigh*. (So this thread's still going!)

To now it can be summarised, "What is any politician thinking?"

Come to think of it, what is anybody thinking?

To paraphrase "Skyhooks", "Hook Airs?"

"Hot air" would be equally correct:rolleyes:

[MissionMan]

To me they are all the same. The problem is not the people, it's the system created that allows them to flourish.

The reality is any politician can promise whatever crap he/she wants to and they in for 4 years. There is no measurement of their success until the next election.

For once, I'd like to see a party measured on their policies. When you get hired as a CEO, you get an employment contract which stipulates performance criteria. If you don't meet them, you get fired. I'd like to see politicians have to deliver their election promises, broken into four years with a failure to deliver 80% of their promises deemed as a fireable offence. Perhaps then they may actually have to think about their promises because they'll only last a year.

I'd also like to see more serious punishment for offences that would normally be considered fireable in an average corporate. Using your company car for your own personal use would result in you being fired. How someone manages to keep their job after that is a mystery to me.

[Bally]

Yes please, some damn accountability.