Mystery FF in Nov [Archive] - AusPhotography:: Australia's Premier Photography Forum::

swifty

23-10-2013, 12:31am

OK.. I know its bad form to talk about vapourware but the latest rumours have really piqued my interest.
Anyways, for those who haven't seen it here are the supposed specs:

"Nikon FM2 like design (rumour updated to supposedly look more F3 like)
16.2MP 36x23,9 full frame sensor (same as in the D4?)
SD memory card
2016-pixel RGB image sensor
9-cell framing grid display
3D color matrix metering II
Native ISO range: 100-12,800 (incl. ISO 50 and ISO 108,200)
5.5 fps for up to 100 shots
3.2" LCD screen
Battery:EN-EL14
Dimensions: 143.5 x 110 x 66.5mm
Weight: 765g
It will come with a new AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G lens (again, not clear what mount the new lens will have)
Standard F-mount
No video recording capabilities
Pentaprism viewfinder (meaning the camera will not be mirrorless)
The camera will meter even with non-AI lenses down to full aperture
The camera will ship with a new special edition Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G lens to match the look/design of the body
The camera will have physical controls and excellent build quality (which explains the 765g weight)
Expeed 3 processor
Same sensor as in the Nikon D4
Nikon calls it a "hybrid" camera - not sure what exactly they mean with that
The announcement will be during the first week of November"
Copy and pasted from Nikonrumors.com

The 'hybrid' name got me speculating PDAF/Hybrid AF, and/or EVF/OVF hybrid viewfinder but then the updated rumours says no video which basically debunks that.

So.. just a bit of fun and games, what do you reckon hybrid means?

Or its just a retro legacy tank of a camera but with digital innards that's completely photo-centric in design. Last forever battery life, throw anything at it build. But if that was it, why call it a hybrid?

ricktas

23-10-2013, 5:14am

I have been reading about this the last week or so, and I am still not sure if it is a valid rumour or just another hoax (as such). But very interesting move by Nikon if it proves to really exist.

There is a photo digital art? of what it looks like here (http://nikonrumors.com/2013/10/20/breaking-new-nikon-full-frame-hybrid-mirrorless-camera-coming-soon.aspx/), along with more details.

I suppose we will find out soon enough if it really exists or not

swifty

23-10-2013, 11:50am

I think that might just be a pic of an FM2 that it's suppose to look like.

There now additional coverage/speculation on Thom Hogan's site:
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-return-of-the-fm.html
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/the-fm-numbers.html

The hybrid tag still baffles me though. Thom seem to be suggesting a stripped down version with just the basic features so what new tech could be underneath to warrant the 'hybrid' tag.
Swappable digital sensor 'cartridge' for a film one? Surely not.. But since this is a wild rumour thread :P

fillum

23-10-2013, 2:06pm

Saw this on NR as well...certainly one of the more interesting Nikon rumours for a while. A few thoughts...

"Hybrid" perhaps refers to the mix of components: low-end (battery, minimal connectivity?) + mid-range(AF, fps) + high-end (sensor).

The 'hybrid' name got me speculating PDAF/Hybrid AF, and/or EVF/OVF hybrid viewfinder but then the updated rumours says no video which basically debunks that.While the "PDAF/Hybrid AF, and/or EVF/OVF hybrid viewfinder" are probably on their way into DSLRs (I'm thinking D400) I don't think they fit the 'stripped-back' philosophy here. Additionally, if the D4 sensor part is correct that would also eliminate PDAF/Hybrid AF.

What makes me think this rumour could be true is that Nikon might be able to build it relatively cheaply from existing parts stock, but actually sell it at a premium. (Who knows, they might have a wharehouse full of unused FM2 shells ? :)). Although the market for this camera might not be huge, I would imagine it to be quite passionate. Given there is a specific mention that "The camera will meter even with non-AI lenses down to full aperture" perhaps gives a hint as to where they would be pitching this.

Be interesting to see if this eventuates. I just hope the 50mm is not a 'pancake' - I might have to sell a kidney...

Cheers.

I @ M

23-10-2013, 2:35pm

All very interesting indeed.
It seems to fit well with the current trend of "retro" designs and going by the rumoured dimensions and weight it would be pretty well a digital F3.
The hybrid description sort of makes sense to me as the F3 offered various viewfinders that could be fitted according to need and this rumoured digital model may offer either interchangeable or optical / electrical viewfinders perhaps even using the Sony style translucent mirror.

I do recall seeing something a while ago about Nikon having a patent for a mirror that was electronically switchable between translucent and "solid".

Time will tell I guess but all I can guarantee is that the price won't make many people happy. :D

swifty

23-10-2013, 2:37pm

"Hybrid" perhaps refers to the mix of components: low-end (battery, minimal connectivity?) + mid-range(AF, fps) + high-end (sensor).
A hybrid low-mid-high end camera.. interesting take. Or hybrid new-old. New innards, old classic shooting philosophy.

While the "PDAF/Hybrid AF, and/or EVF/OVF hybrid viewfinder" are probably on their way into DSLRs (I'm thinking D400) I don't think they fit the 'stripped-back' philosophy here. Additionally, if the D4 sensor part is correct that would also eliminate PDAF/Hybrid AF.

I agree. My initial thoughts are far more in line with a D400-like camera rather than a stripped back retro design. I really got stuck on the hybrid bit which might not even be very significant, but a marketing tag.

What makes me think this rumour could be true is that Nikon might be able to build it relatively cheaply from existing parts stock, but actually sell it at a premium. (Who knows, they might have a wharehouse full of unused FM2 shells ? :)). Although the market for this camera might not be huge, I would imagine it to be quite passionate. Given there is a specific mention that "The camera will meter even with non-AI lenses down to full aperture" perhaps gives a hint as to where they would be pitching this. .

The rumoured dimensions at 143.5 x 110 x 66.5mm comes in around 6.5mm thicker than an FM2. Its not hard to imagine a LCD accounting for that extra depth.

Be interesting to see if this eventuates. I just hope the 50mm is not a 'pancake' - I might have to sell a kidney...

Cheers.
Lucky for me I recently sold a lens that can fund upcoming purchases so my kidneys are still safe for now haha.

I @ M

23-10-2013, 2:48pm

The rumoured dimensions at 143.5 x 110 x 66.5mm comes in around 6.5mm thicker than an FM2. Its not hard to imagine a LCD accounting for that extra depth.

Which is why the FM3 matches it slightly more closely to my eyes --- specs at the bottom of the page.

http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/nikonf3ver2/htmls/spec.htm

swifty

23-10-2013, 2:48pm

arthurking83

23-10-2013, 8:36pm

.....

The rumoured dimensions at 143.5 x 110 x 66.5mm comes in around 6.5mm thicker than an FM2. Its not hard to imagine a LCD accounting for that extra depth.

......

Those dimensions don't really speak of a very compact camera either tho.

If you measure a D800(currently considered to be a monster in camera body terms) .. a D800 measures 140-ish x 120(ish) x 80(ish) really not all that different in real terms to this supposed body.
In fact, the thickness of the D800 is really only at the grip end of the body, which forms a supremely ergonomic design, which should be comfy enough to hand hold all day(for my average sized male hand).
80% of the D800's body thickness is measured at about 60(ish)mm.

So apart from the retro styling .. the advantage in this camera is ...... :confused:

If you want a cut down, lightweight full frame Nikon DSLR .. just get a (most likely)cheaper D600! :confused013

About two or so years back, Nikon filed a patent for a hybrid OVF/EVF ... so the most likely answer to this hybridised terminology could be the final result of that engineering effort(hopefully).

PDAF is not really a hybrid anything any longer ... it's standard fare for AF amongst many new model cameras.

So! .. this camera is basically going to be a stripped down gripless D800, possibly with a D4 sensor(unlikely) .. or maybe even a mystery Aptina sensor??
(I'm pretty sure I've read that the Nikon V1 uses an Aptina sensor .. so to reduce their reliance on Sony, Nikon may be sowing other fields ;))

Anyhow.. hopefully we'll find out more early November.

swifty

24-10-2013, 2:14am

Those dimensions don't really speak of a very compact camera either tho.

If you measure a D800(currently considered to be a monster in camera body terms) .. a D800 measures 140-ish x 120(ish) x 80(ish) really not all that different in real terms to this supposed body.
In fact, the thickness of the D800 is really only at the grip end of the body, which forms a supremely ergonomic design, which should be comfy enough to hand hold all day(for my average sized male hand).
80% of the D800's body thickness is measured at about 60(ish)mm.

That's true, the dimensions aren't a massive reduction, unlike eg. the A7/r's design.
But remembering those are the supposed dimensions at the extremities and doesn't necessary mean no grip at all. There could still be a smaller grip.
Depending on the actual extensions, there could still be quite a large volume reduction even if the camera remains relatively heavy due to the construction.

So apart from the retro styling .. the advantage in this camera is ...... :confused:

If you want a cut down, lightweight full frame Nikon DSLR .. just get a (most likely)cheaper D600! :confused013

I still say the volume reduction might prove to be quite significant. Looking at the latter days of film, Nikon had cameras such as the F5/F6, F100 and Fm3a as well as other entry level DSLRs. Horses for courses.
I actually think a strip down camera is quite refreshing. Regardless of the actual styling (retro or not), this is far more interesting to me than eg. a D610. I already own a D700 btw.
I'm actually not in the market for a camera, it's purely for interest's sake. But there could be surprise or two that might get me thinking.

About two or so years back, Nikon filed a patent for a hybrid OVF/EVF ... so the most likely answer to this hybridised terminology could be the final result of that engineering effort(hopefully).

PDAF is not really a hybrid anything any longer ... it's standard fare for AF amongst many new model cameras.

So! .. this camera is basically going to be a stripped down gripless D800, possibly with a D4 sensor(unlikely) .. or maybe even a mystery Aptina sensor??
(I'm pretty sure I've read that the Nikon V1 uses an Aptina sensor .. so to reduce their reliance on Sony, Nikon may be sowing other fields ;))

Anyhow.. hopefully we'll find out more early November.

I'm thinking on-sensor PDAF (for DSLRs) with OVF/EVFs might make its debut in a speed machine in a hypothetical D400. I just think the mechanical mirror limits FPS, and not the bandwidth as shown in the Nikon V2. Hence this tech would be far more suited to a sports/wildlife orientated camera where FPS wouldn't be limited by the mirror whilst AF stays up to scratch using on-sensor PDAF.
There's specific mention of no video. Could just be cost reduction thing but on-sensor PDAF would necessitate the mirror to be up, and the only way to compose would then be to have a video feed from the sensor. So no video would very likely mean no on-sensor PDAF I reckon.

swifty

24-10-2013, 4:34pm

I @ M

24-10-2013, 4:44pm

http://nikonrumors.com/2013/10/24/first-nikon-retro-camera-teaser-its-in-my-hands-again.aspx/#more-65898

Teaser from Nikon.
Link's on the NR page but here's the direct link to youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CDWV6o1o4A

Good quality video --- probably filmed with a Canon. :D

Might be some truth in this rumour after all with all the carefully orchestrated "leaks" happening.

swifty

24-10-2013, 6:19pm

http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/

Placeholder in the Nikon DSLR lineup page labelled Pure Photography that links to the above video teaser.

fillum

24-10-2013, 8:41pm

Hmmm...Shady looking bloke in an overcoat all alone says "It's in my hands again"...Canon-fodder will have a field day with that :D

I @ M

25-10-2013, 5:06pm

arthurking83

25-10-2013, 10:52pm

Hmmm...Shady looking bloke in an overcoat all alone says "It's in my hands again"...Canon-fodder will have a field day with that :D

must remember to direct them to this (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?122591-Sorry-You-think-it-looks-like-WHAT-%28bit-rude-if-you-ve-got-a-dirty-mind%29) thread then huh! ;)

swifty

27-10-2013, 12:09pm

A quick look around the Nikon fanboi sites today shows plenty of interest.

All that can be guaranteed is that when it is finally released there will be the usual howls of ----

The top 10 in order.

#1 Too expensive, if it was $1199.00 I would buy it.
#2 Where is the D700 replacement? I have been waiting 2 years and I need one now!
#3 Where is the D400? If they don't release it tomorrow I am going to buy a Canon!
#4 Too many megapickles! I can't afford a new computer!
#5 Not enough megapickles! How am I ever going to impress my failbook friends!
#6 Not enough focus points! And they had all better work at F/16!
#7 No 4k video, it will never sell!
#8 Aaaah, finally a small body from Nikon but how come the battery grip costs $300.00
#9 They should have made it all black / silver. (strike out whichever does not apply)

and finally

#10 So that's what they did with all the left over D600 shutter assemblies. :D

LOL.. the number of complaints that are already rolling in. #6 getting a good work out.
It quite amazing how emotional people get when camera A doesn't have exactly XYZ that 'I' want.
Good and bad I guess. Good that people care, bad how self centred our society's becoming (as a whole).

BTW, for those casually following the news only:

Speculated name is the Nikon DF

Second teaser video is up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTKnbbFJgKY

The 'Pure Photography' placeholder in the link I posted above is gone now.

swifty

28-10-2013, 4:06pm

Teaser #3's up":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy_5ypybtX8

fillum

28-10-2013, 7:09pm

mmmm...divergence (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?125991-Convergence-vs-Divergence)....:)

arthurking83

28-10-2013, 10:04pm

What I want to know .. is he manually focusing that AF-D lens .. or does this camera also have AF-D af capability?

I think it's going to be a good bet that this camera will also have video capability as well.

My bet is on it being ... convergent! :D

I think the main point of this camera(for Nikon) is as a test bed for reactions to their implementation of EVF.
They can't just do EVF in their top line DSLRs(D800/D4) .. as it will alienate the die hards and pros.

So they want a 'crash test dummy' camera, without any pretensions to a specific market type(ie. pros) just in case things go pearshaped(as is their recent modus operandi).
This way they won't have forced an EVF onto the professional market via an established pro level camera line ... they market this new line towards the professional .. get feedback as to the pros/cons of their technology .. and then look to implement improved versions into future established pro lines.

Either way, I think that OVF cameras are a doomed breed.
They're costly to manufacture due to tolerances and QC .... and they need a way out and into greener pastures.

My suspicion is that's basically the marketing reasoning behind this sort of camera from Nikon, plus the retro rage currently going on around the globe for cameras.

I believe that if this camera does have an EVF system, even if it is a hybrid EVF/OVF .. it'll find it's way into the Dxxx/Dx lines within 2 generations(ie. either D5/D6, or D810/D900 .. or whatever convoluted numbering system Nikon choose as successors).

Besides all that .. it'll have a 4" touchscreen, with a programmable OS, and app capability .... so I can do my accounts, online banking, emails, play a bit of tetris and do some online shopping for new filters and lenses .. all while I'm out capturing videos of landscape scenes! ... cool :D

Tommo1965

28-10-2013, 10:37pm

Im interested to see how this plays out..I hope they offer it in a 36 MP version as well as the touted 16mp..if they do my D800 will be sold if the new body is a simple piece of kit like is being talked about

swifty

29-10-2013, 1:28pm

mmmm...divergence (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?125991-Convergence-vs-Divergence)....:)

Haha.. do you think its a coincidence I started both threads? ;)
Didn't want to cross post so I didn't mention the rumoured Nikon DF in the other thread. Afterall, despite the publicity and teasers, its still a rumour.
But the timing that the Nikon teasers and the article on LL started appearing... my spider senses are in over drive LOL.

- - - Updated - - -

RE: AK83
Not sure if you're jesting but can't say I agree with much of that at all actually.

What I want to know .. is he manually focusing that AF-D lens .. or does this camera also have AF-D af capability?
If the emphasis is its compatibility with all Nikon lenses, even pre-AI then I think AF-D lens focussing should be fully supported.

I think it's going to be a good bet that this camera will also have video capability as well.
The Nikonrumors admin seem pretty adamant video has been left off intentionally.

My bet is on it being ... convergent! :D

I think the main point of this camera(for Nikon) is as a test bed for reactions to their implementation of EVF.
They can't just do EVF in their top line DSLRs(D800/D4) .. as it will alienate the die hards and pros.

So they want a 'crash test dummy' camera, without any pretensions to a specific market type(ie. pros) just in case things go pearshaped(as is their recent modus operandi).
This way they won't have forced an EVF onto the professional market via an established pro level camera line ... they market this new line towards the professional .. get feedback as to the pros/cons of their technology .. and then look to implement improved versions into future established pro lines.
I disagree on all points here. I think this will be clearly a divergent product. Back to photography roots.
I don't think there will be an EVF but then I don't know what to make of the hybrid moniker. Swappable pentaprism for and EVF perhaps, as Andrew suggested.

Either way, I think that OVF cameras are a doomed breed.
They're costly to manufacture due to tolerances and QC .... and they need a way out and into greener pastures.

I agree. OVF are doomed for mainstream cameras. But won't die completely, like many legacy items.

My suspicion is that's basically the marketing reasoning behind this sort of camera from Nikon, plus the retro rage currently going on around the globe for cameras.

Partially agree. Marketing must have a lot to do with it. But the success of the OMD and Fuji X must be making executive stand up and take notice. Is it really just a 'looks' fad or were the old designs never broken, but desired actually.

I believe that if this camera does have an EVF system, even if it is a hybrid EVF/OVF .. it'll find it's way into the Dxxx/Dx lines within 2 generations(ie. either D5/D6, or D810/D900 .. or whatever convoluted numbering system Nikon choose as successors).
I'm sure EVFs will make its way to other DSLRs down the road. I still think the hybrid OVF and/or EVF and by extension - on-sensor PDAF makes far more sense in a D400 like camera.

Besides all that .. it'll have a 4" touchscreen, with a programmable OS, and app capability .... so I can do my accounts, online banking, emails, play a bit of tetris and do some online shopping for new filters and lenses .. all while I'm out capturing videos of landscape scenes! ... cool :D
LOL...

Back on track...everything thus far points to a cut down, back to basics, frills free camera.
One thing's for sure, going by current expectations its got a lot of people (me included) quite excited.

- - - Updated - - -

Im interested to see how this plays out..I hope they offer it in a 36 MP version as well as the touted 16mp..if they do my D800 will be sold if the new body is a simple piece of kit like is being talked about

Its been suggested the Nikon designed 16MP D4 sensor may be more appropriate due to potentially better performance with legacy lens (due to Nikon's microlens technology perhaps) vs the Sony 36MP sensor.
I haven't come across any solid commentary/articles to verify this claim though.

fillum

29-10-2013, 4:39pm

Haha.. do you think its a coincidence I started both threads? ;)Didn't think it a coincidence you started both threads, but I think the LL post is coincidental with the Nikon stuff. The LL guy seems to be a MF & Leica boi so I don't know if he'd be too interested in what Nikon are doing?

I don't think we'll see any new tech in this. I think the idea is to use existing parts, so cheaper to build and also minimal R&D costs to recover. Less doodads (no onboard flash, no top lcd, etc) and probably be deliberately 'crippled' to minimise firmware type features (no video, lots of existing menu options gone, no auto-mode? <- would they do that?), etc. The new lens is likely to be the existing 50mm f/1.8 but with a retro 'AI-S styled' outer (but without the "ears" :)), although they might change the focus ring throw to aid manual focus?.

I reckon ~$1500

Cheers.

swifty

29-10-2013, 7:23pm

I reckon ~$1500

Yea, the Nikonrumors admin's hunch seem to be a sub-$2k pricing.
Another reliable poster (Bronxibear) with a history of insider info further posted that the quality may resemble that of a P7100. Ie. this is looking unlike the digital FM that many are hoping for.

swifty

30-10-2013, 3:20pm

Teaser video #4:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHbFx-Jcfps

Tommo1965

30-10-2013, 5:31pm

the anticipation..it feels like 6 days before christmas and Im 9 years old ...:)

I @ M

30-10-2013, 6:11pm

The Nov. 5th date seems to have been confirmed.

Still plenty of time to speculate about the specs and get people into a lather though. :D

Sorry, in advance, Nikon this one is not going to find a place in this household, Fuji beat you to it. :p

Tommo1965

30-10-2013, 6:13pm

what did you buy Andrew ?...

I @ M

30-10-2013, 6:19pm

what did you buy Andrew ?...

That one (http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?120124-Fuji-X100s-first-thoughts#post1188545) Steve, many moons ago and it just keeps getting better.

It isn't the answer to all photographic needs but it is one hellofagudcamera. :D

Tommo1965

30-10-2013, 7:17pm

thanks for the link mate..looks like a nice camera judging by the image quality...I almost bought a X100 the other day for $400...kicking myself I didn't get it..particularly after the firmware update they had recently

ricktas

31-10-2013, 5:31am

Nikon Df3 - from one of the videos and enhanced : http://petapixel.com/assets/uploads/2013/10/nikondf_3.jpg

swifty

31-10-2013, 5:06pm

Going slightly off topic. If the Df proves to be a success, there's no technological barriers to producing a premium or lower cost version (relative to the rumoured first camera) with the same philosophy.
So the camera pricing becomes quite irrelevant really. It just has to fit the specs.

To take the concept further, a DX version could be highly desirable should a set of small DX primes be released concurrently. We currently only have the 35/1.8G.
Just have a look at Fuji X-mount prime lenses to see what's missing in Nikon's DX line up.

arthurking83

31-10-2013, 10:00pm

Well there is also the 40mm micro and 85mm micro(not small tho).

The current chatter is that it appears(from the massively recovered and grainy images) that this device may have interchangeable finders.

I think you're on the right track too swifty re pricing and spec levels.

But then again, it wasn't all that long ago when I used to cry myself to sleep due to Nikon's lack of a relatively cheap Fx camera, and approx $2.5K was required to enter into this fold.
And that was for a camera(D700) that was long overdue for updating too.
For far too long Sony had a cheap full frame camera in the A850(i think it was called) coming in under $2K, when the next cheapest was well over that.

And still Sony couldn't effectively penetrate that market segment!

Now we have D600s that have finally dipped into the more affordable realm from of all companies .. Nikon! The camera company with the overinflated ego ... and prices to match!

Just read Thom's latest article re full frame, and (I think)he's thinking that the two major protagonists are gravitating towards a full frame barney of some kind.
He goes on with much commentary as to the merits of whether we(average consumers) actually needs full frame .. and I reckon he's actually onto something with his article too.

We know Sony is more aggressive with their pricing re similarly specced cameras, and traditionally a similar Nikon camera type would attract about a $500 premium over whatever Sony has on offer.

So .. if the A7 is listed at (say) $1700 , then a 16Mp Nikon equivalent will come in at least $2.2K. If the A7r comes in at $2.5K .. then (if) Nikon made a 36Mp version, it'd have to come in at a min $3K.

Will Nikon ever make a set of smaller Dx specialist lenses again .... :confused:

I'm curious as to exactly how successful(or otherwise) the Nikon 1 system is working for Nikon, and if it was worth the effort for them.
They could have easily put that effort into a Dx sensored system instead, saved much of that effort via some of the common parts and engineering effort across the two systems(Nikon 1 and Dx) too .. and then funnel that saved effort into a few more Dx lenses .. being more useful across a more complimentary and compatible product range.

swifty

01-11-2013, 12:00pm

Well there is also the 40mm micro and 85mm micro(not small tho).
Oh yea.. forgot about those. You gotta wonder about priorities at Nikon eh. Wouldn't a 23mm/1.8 DX (35mm equiv) or similar be a more popular lens?

The current chatter is that it appears(from the massively recovered and grainy images) that this device may have interchangeable finders.
I think you're on the right track too swifty re pricing and spec levels.

I've been pretty bad with predictions actually but its all pretty harmless chatter anyways haha. A lot of people seem pretty convinced at a changeable finder. I think that would be great but it doesn't sound like a cheap feature to me though.

But then again, it wasn't all that long ago when I used to cry myself to sleep due to Nikon's lack of a relatively cheap Fx camera, and approx $2.5K was required to enter into this fold.
And that was for a camera(D700) that was long overdue for updating too.
For far too long Sony had a cheap full frame camera in the A850(i think it was called) coming in under $2K, when the next cheapest was well over that.

And still Sony couldn't effectively penetrate that market segment!

Now we have D600s that have finally dipped into the more affordable realm from of all companies .. Nikon! The camera company with the overinflated ego ... and prices to match!

Yea I always thought Sony priced themselves very aggressively. Which has been a good thing on Nikon and Canon prices. I always thought Sony's lack of traction wasn't gear related too. They're fantastic engineers but I don't fully trust their commitment. Not suggesting anything will happen to their Alpha DSLR/T line but if I had bought into it I'd be a bit concerned that their resources are now spread over 3 other lens lines in addition to DSLR/T FF: mirroless APS-C, mirrorless FF and DSLR/T APS-C. Its like they're only in when the market's hot. And right now the buzz is FF mirrorless.

Just read Thom's latest article re full frame, and (I think)he's thinking that the two major protagonists are gravitating towards a full frame barney of some kind.
He goes on with much commentary as to the merits of whether we(average consumers) actually needs full frame .. and I reckon he's actually onto something with his article too.

Even though I chose to skip APS-C (I've gone FX and m43), I think Nikon would be very silly to ignore DX. Sure DX started off due to cost and fab issues with FF but its really grown into a really nice (and largest) format with the bulk of DSLR users. Why not support these users. I feel there's better 3rd party support for DX than from themselves. A D400 is needed and some good lenses are required. A trimmed down APS-C camera and a series of small primes would have me considering selling off m43 and jumping back into Nikon APS-C. I say consider cos what I want really is commitment from the manufacturer to the format and the m43 players are very committed.

We know Sony is more aggressive with their pricing re similarly specced cameras, and traditionally a similar Nikon camera type would attract about a $500 premium over whatever Sony has on offer.

So .. if the A7 is listed at (say) $1700 , then a 16Mp Nikon equivalent will come in at least $2.2K. If the A7r comes in at $2.5K .. then (if) Nikon made a 36Mp version, it'd have to come in at a min $3K.

I don't think Nikon sees their 16MP sensor as inferior though. In fact with smaller production numbers, it might even be more expensive and since its in the D4, its a bit of a halo sensor. But yea, I think Sony is a thorn in Nikon's side cos even though I think the Df and A7/r are very different cameras, they will undoubtedly be price competitors. Again, a good thing for us and I agree that Sony's pricing will be relevant for Nikon's products, whether they like it or not.

Will Nikon ever make a set of smaller Dx specialist lenses again .... :confused:

I'm curious as to exactly how successful(or otherwise) the Nikon 1 system is working for Nikon, and if it was worth the effort for them.
They could have easily put that effort into a Dx sensored system instead, saved much of that effort via some of the common parts and engineering effort across the two systems(Nikon 1 and Dx) too .. and then funnel that saved effort into a few more Dx lenses .. being more useful across a more complimentary and compatible product range.
I agree. But I guess resources are finite and DX's becoming the ignored middle child. I still think their decision to go with a 1" sensor to differentiate the CX line from the DSLRs might not have been the best but now they've gone with it, they gotta stick to their guns.

swifty

01-11-2013, 2:09pm

And like clockwork, teaser #5 is up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_LV7qRCJyA&list=PLr5KnmfikOdm5dqUYbgj42k1ixH90j7et&index=5

We get to see a lot more of the camera this time.

- - - Updated - - -

Centre weighted and matrix metering are there, no spot?
Rear four-way direction pad.
AF-On and AE-L/AF-L buttons all present.
Rear control dial.
Top shutter dial
Doesn't look that retro.

swifty

01-11-2013, 8:22pm

My mistake. The spot 'dot' is there.
Looks quite premium.
Thicker than I had expected. Excluding the mount protrusion, the left side of the body looks only marginally thinner than my D700. But I guess you'll get far more volume/thickness savings on the right side of the body.

Looking too much into it LOL. That's what happens when you're sick and bed bound!

I @ M

02-11-2013, 6:38am

What if -----

Everybody got one thing wrong and it isn't FX.

What if -----

The DF is actually in place of a number and it stands for 400.

MattNQ

02-11-2013, 8:31am

What if -----

Everybody got one thing wrong and it isn't FX.

What if -----

The DF is actually in place of a number and it stands for 400.

Now that you raise that possibility, one could speculate that a 16mp sensor and Expeed 4 should hammer out more than the fairly ordinary rumoured frame rate. 5.5 fps was it?

sent from a not-very-smart phone via tapatalk

- - - Updated - - -

Why do these videos give me the impression that they should be entitled "Wallander takes up photography"....:D

swifty

02-11-2013, 11:18am

What if -----

Everybody got one thing wrong and it isn't FX.

What if -----

The DF is actually in place of a number and it stands for 400.

haha.. the FX symbol is boldly printed on the front of the teaser camera. (Camera lower left, our lower right).

- - - Updated - - -

Now that you raise that possibility, one could speculate that a 16mp sensor and Expeed 4 should hammer out more than the fairly ordinary rumoured frame rate. 5.5 fps was it?

Certainly possibly but for FPS, bandwidth is less of a problem than the mirror (Queue Nikon V2). With the rumoured hybrid moniker, we might still see an EVF of some sort, bypassing the mirror limitation.

swifty

04-11-2013, 11:55pm

Oooh.. the camera's finally leaked:

http://nikonrumors.com/2013/11/04/this-is-the-nikon-df.aspx/

I @ M

05-11-2013, 5:43am

My thoughts ( for what they are worth ) at this stage ---

A one off model appealing to "retro" lovers.

Complex and even cluttered array of control dials.

I don't quite understand all the top dials and then a rear command dial as well as the funny looking one on the front. :confused013

The prominent "Made in Japan" labelling is the strongest indication that it is made to appeal to brand snobs and will almost certainly guarantee a $2,000.00 ++ price tag to further enhance the exclusivity.

kaiser

05-11-2013, 7:45am

I agree. I see nothing revolutionary about this camera. I like having physical controls for basic exposure parameters- but to have them on top of all the usual DSLR controls looks way too overcrowded. The whole teaser ad campaign was giving me a bad feeling and these latest pics have just confirmed it. To hell with innovation and ergonomics- lets make something fashionable (and price it accordingly)

Tommo1965

05-11-2013, 8:31am

I agree with andrew..I expect the rear command dial is for Aperture on gelded lenses ..

it was on amazon for $2750 ..but that's since been taken down ..I expect they jumped the gun

arthurking83

05-11-2013, 8:39am

......

The prominent "Made in Japan" labelling is the strongest indication that it is made to appeal to brand snobs and will almost certainly guarantee a $2,000.00 ++ price tag to further enhance the exclusivity.

Quite possibly $US2750 or so :p

An Amazon web page was uploaded prematurely showing a price of $2750.
Headline features "16.2 M pixel CMOS sensor" with the same frontal image as those just leaked on NR too.

Errrr... if that Amazon price is not a hoax, then I'm pretty sure that Nikon have totally missed the point with this sort of camera.
Apart from the dedicated diehard Nikon fans .. I personally can't see why you'd want this over a Sony A7/r :confused:

While the camera will almost certainly have a lot of wiggle room for price reduction once the hype settles,(say 6-12months) .. by then Sony should have outsold it by a few million to one!

I've noticed that the ISO dial seems to have 12800 as the top native ISO and then it then increases from H1 to H4 beyond that.
Basically with a 16.2Mp sensor and those ISO ratings .. it's (almost certainly)a D4 sensor.

1/4000s shutter is a bit of a let down tho .. in that for a supposedly high priced, high end camera body(ie. that apparent $2750 price tag) .. you'd expect a more professional shutter mechanism!

Oh well ... we'll all find out in a few hours.

I @ M

05-11-2013, 9:12am

Oh well ... we'll all find out in a few hours.

For those who can't wait (http://nikonrumors.com/2013/11/04/nikon-df-body-only-price-2746-95.aspx/#more-66728) --------- :p

arthurking83

05-11-2013, 9:50am

What's interesting in the NR images(which look like official marketing spiel material too!) .. two screws holding the rear face of the viewfinder!.

An 'interesting approach' to the construction of the viewfinder prism housing ;)

I reckon the EN-EL14 battery is going to produce the loudest howls of protest tho! Whaddaya reckon .. 100-150 exposures from a charge?

swifty

05-11-2013, 2:24pm

http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/df/

Its official now.

I @ M

05-11-2013, 2:25pm

yep, just got an email telling me to visit http://mynikonlife.com.au/gear/digital-slr-cameras/df%20?utm_source=november-edm&utm_medium=edm&utm_campaign=d4&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=November+EDM+Nikon+D4&utm_content=November+EDM+Nikon+D4+CID_04555491c750d80bf7779a685cab9b87&utm_source=Monthly%20EDM&utm_term=I%20AM%20PURE%20PHOTOGRAPHY

arthurking83

05-11-2013, 2:57pm

The only interesting feature of this camera is the possibility to have a D4(sensor) at an affordable price point.

Price is going to be stupidly inflated initially(as always), but once stocks of bodies stop moving ... say mid next year, prices tumble ... maybe $2k by then ... seems like an OK deal if viewed in this light.

Always wanted a D4(but could never afford one).

Now the mad rush is on to start gathering many unwanted, unloved, unconvertible non Ai lenses ... before prices start going through the roof too!

EDIT: battery is EN-EL14a, which must be a completely different battery to the EN-EL14.
Nikon claiming 1400 shots per charge! .. apologies to Nikon for doubting their thinking on this point.

kaiser

05-11-2013, 3:52pm

It still uses the D800 focusing screen though by the looks of it, with no mention of interchangibility- so I dont see how this will be any better for manual focus use.

swifty

05-11-2013, 4:11pm

Going against the grain here, I like the camera. Don't like the price.
But the proof is in use. If the controls feel intuitive to me I'll probably bite.

Was hoping for an Apple 'one more thing' type surprise but that didn't materialize.

It's more cluttered than I'd thought it'd be.
Love the ISO and exposure compensation dial but there should be an Auto (A) on that dial for your preconfigured Auto ISO preference.
Shame about the AF point coverage but not a deal breaker for me personally.

No built in wifi is silly IMO. Nothing to do with camera functions, I just think some form of wireless communication needs to be standard on a 2013 electronic product.

I think the SD card n small battery were size considerations. Luckily the number of shots per charge is still good.

Adequate volume reduction compared to previous bodies IMO.

I @ M

05-11-2013, 5:29pm

Now the "real deal" is out there in public and having seen the specs I am left with the overwhelming impression that the D4 sensor is a big + but the rest of the camera really only reaches the level of a D700 in many areas, exceeds it in a small number of points and falls behind in quite a few more.

Not on my shopping list.

old dog

05-11-2013, 6:31pm

just announced....FX....16.2 Mp.....called the Df. I wonder what the price will be like as I`d love one...:eek:

I @ M

05-11-2013, 6:53pm

I wonder what the price will be like as I`d love one...:eek:

Why?

More importantly, what is it going to offer that your current body doesn't?

swifty

05-11-2013, 7:06pm

Re: price. Yea I think I may be a late adopter for this camera. Pending how it handles, I think I'd like to have it one day but not much pressing need. I think it'd go well with a couple of 1.8 primes.

Further thoughts, the lack of better MF aid/options seem like a flawed decision and a missed opportunity. And the eyepoint is at 15mm which is lower than both the D600 and D800. I don't wear glasses but I'd imagine this would be disappointing for those who do.
I need to find more information about the VF. Only comment so far from Dpreview's first impression is not very informative other than its large and bright like the D800.

In regards to value, well I guess the value proposition is very personal depending on what you prioritise. But I guess for most, the D800/E will represent much better value at a similar price. But I guess for those who want the D4 sensor, the value doesn't seem bad.

I @ M

05-11-2013, 7:35pm

Re: price. Yea I think I may be a late adopter for this camera.

Going by the usual "preorder" US stores at $2746.95 and doing a current exchange rate conversion ( we all know that we all get milked in Aus. ) it works out at $2900.01 in Oz pesos.

It is too simply far too expensive for the limited features on offer and I reckon it needs to drop by 1K in Aus ( pretty bluddy quickly ) in order for it to be on anyone's wish list.

MattNQ

05-11-2013, 9:48pm

Maybe it's like the Harley Davidson of cameras?
If you want something that is super quick & has pin sharp handling and all the latest techno features, look elsewhere.
But if you want something that feels like a classic & looks cool whether you are using it for real or just a posing wannabe, here it is.:D

That said, I'd love one to play with....but if I had that sort of coin, I'd grab a D800 I think.

arthurking83

05-11-2013, 9:54pm

We should start a dedicated official thread for this new body and chatter about the features and shortcomings there now.

(I'll start a thread in a sec).

glennb

16-11-2013, 8:30am

Harvey Norman have the Df at $3599 body only $3950 with 50mm WT#!! Bit pricey me thinks.

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swifty

17-11-2013, 10:32am

Harvey Norman have the Df at $3599 body only $3950 with 50mm WT#!! Bit pricey me thinks.

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http://www.cameras.net.au/
Think this is a better reflection of initial street pricing: $3095/$3395 for the body only/kit.

glennb

17-11-2013, 11:06am

http://www.cameras.net.au/
Think this is a better reflection of initial street pricing: $3095/$3395 for the body only/kit.

Yeah noticed Vanbar here in melbourne have it at $3199 and like the d610 price may drop further when released.

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