Big Siggy

[Fruengalli]

OK so my daughter has lent me a Sigma 150-500 hence some long range shots of late. Having trouble with surf shot focus using servo with lens IS enabled (800 iso 1000 sec or better).I seem to get sharper shots on one shot as opposed to servo.The manual says 1 second for IS to work so maybe its softening focus ???

[arthurking83]

OK, I don't have Canon, but many features found in one brand can be found in the other.

But this could be camera related too.

If you have a mid to high level camera, there could be a setting for when focusing when using servo mode(in Nikonspeak it's called continuous) .. that adjusts the speed of the servo focus mode.
This setting is generally used to set the delay speed, for when your intended subject is blocked by another subject, but in reality the camera doesn't know what is a subject and what is an interfering subject.

(usually) this setting is to adjust the speed of the delay of the focus system in trying to achieve focus.
Note that it's not to adjust the speed of the focusing system, but the delay in focusing.

Setting a long delay for this setting means that the focus system will wait a pre defined period before trying to achieve focus again, whereas setting a short delay(or off) means that the focus system will try to maintain focus quicker.

But note that this lens is noted for a not so fast focusing system. It's not the worst lens, I've ever tried, but it is a consumer level long lens, targetted towards folks with financial constraints!
My play with this lens was fairly brief, but I've had slower focusing lenses than this.
But, it did provide some pretty impressive results considering it's price tag! :th3:

If your camera doesn't have this servo delay setting, then there's not much that you can really do, as the focus speed is a lens related specification.

[Fruengalli]

My 5dII doesn't have the features you mention BUT after giving it some thought I think it was op error.Servo needs constant half press for constant focus & I was approaching shots as if it was single shot (tracking,half press,fire) so the lens had no chance. I've taken some more with a little more thought & they are much better.Thanks for the input anyway.Cheers

[arthurking83]

Aha!

Like I said .. no idea on anything Canon related.

BUT!! In saying that, I'm sure that a 5DII must surely have an AF-On button for focusing.

I suggest setting the camera up with the AF-On button for focusing :th3:

[Fruengalli]

Aha!

Like I said .. no idea on anything Canon related.

BUT!! In saying that, I'm sure that a 5DII must surely have an AF-On button for focusing.

I suggest setting the camera up with the AF-On button for focusing :th3:

I already have it set for focus lock..

[MarkChap]

Your 5D MkIII will have th efunctionality Arthur speaks of.
In the custom functions you will be able to set a priority for frame rate or focus, so after initial focus and first frame do you want the camera/lens combo to prioritise frame rate or focus.
You will also be able to adjust Servo focus sensativity, not sure where exactly it will be on a MkIII, but it will be there in the custom functions

[Fruengalli]

Your 5D MkIII will have th efunctionality Arthur speaks of.
In the custom functions you will be able to set a priority for frame rate or focus, so after initial focus and first frame do you want the camera/lens combo to prioritise frame rate or focus.
You will also be able to adjust Servo focus sensativity, not sure where exactly it will be on a MkIII, but it will be there in the custom functions

Thanks Mark but its "only" a 5DII

[MarkChap]

sorry bloke, misread the model

[arthurking83]

I already have it set for focus lock..

You've set your AF-On button for focus lock?

In that case, for these sorts of shooting genres, you're better off setting it to just focus(ie. on demand).

If focus lock does what I think it does, then when using the AF-On button for focusing, makes the AF-On button focus lock by default anyhow(I think).

eg. if you set focus lock onto a subject, this simply means that you' have focused, and now the camera can release the exposure, even if you recompose or alter the focus point.
(most cameras are set not to release, if focus isn't achieved).

With AF-On used for focusing, you (obviously) choose when to focus yourself .. so by not focusing again .. you still have locked focus to where you last reset it anyhow.

ie. basically same difference, just a different flavour ... AF-On is far more flexible. Many who also have switched to it, now swear by it and it's hard to go back.


Hope that all makes sense, if you try it and persevere a bit with it, I'm sure it will for you too.

[Fruengalli]

perhaps you should investigate canons before comment?

[arthurking83]

And exactly what will this achieve?

If you don't want assistance, it's usually better just to say so!

[Fruengalli]

And exactly what will this achieve?

If you don't want assistance, it's usually better just to say so!

Hmmm....seems my Friday night humor has got me in strife again.Probably should have had LOL at the end my comment.Note to self-No typing after 10 PM.But back to the AF on button-I normally work in one shot mode so I just find it easier for focus/recompose if I use focus lock as the option.Anyway cheers for the help.

[arthurking83]

Right.
So if you take the time to explain why 'focus lock' is important to you, then either I, or someone else can help to describe other options to achieve the same desired effect.

I'm hoping that in your description of "focus lock", you're not inadvertently describing AE lock(auto exposure lock! This is where a breakdown in communication may have occurred.

Reason is because locking focus .. or more accurately securing focus to a specific plane, is usually best done either manually, or with the AF-On button method.
Exposure lock is a totally different beast and has nothing to do with the original question posted.

If you've ever tried the AF-On method for focusing you'll understand why it's an important feature on a pro/semi pro body. It's akin to having full time manual focus control but the advantage of the camera doing the focusing for you.


Anyhow, I'm not trying to persuade you to do anything .. just trying to describe to you, an option for operating your camera for the situation you had trouble with.

[Epoc]

I always thought that you should turn off the IS (which is actually OS on a Sigma) for moving shots with higher shutter speeds which I presume you will have doing surf shots.

[Warbler]

Okay, stupid question time. Are you using AI-Servo or AI-Focus, or are you using single shot? I don't have either a 5DMkII or a Sigma 150-500, but I do have a 5D, a 5DMkIII and a couple off Sigma teles. I've found best results from the Sigmas is use a monopod, set the camera in either AI-Servo or AI-Focus and use a single focus point. If using burst, I usually encounter the odd OOF shot within a series. That even happens on my 1-series bodies with the Sigmas. I've also found that using the AF-On button as suggested by people above, is easier to do with the camera/lens combo's weight supported by a mono. OS is not going to be of any benefit to you in shooting a moving subject if you are already getting 1/1000th of a second as you mentioned. OS will only help you with slow shutter and camera shake. Also, the focus is improved greatly if you can fill the frame with your desired subject. The 5D Mark II was not designed as a sports weapon, but some sports it can handle quite well. I would have thought surfing would be one that it does okay. Only one person in the shot at a time.

[Fruengalli]

Okay, stupid question time. Are you using AI-Servo or AI-Focus, or are you using single shot? I don't have either a 5DMkII or a Sigma 150-500, but I do have a 5D, a 5DMkIII and a couple off Sigma teles. I've found best results from the Sigmas is use a monopod, set the camera in either AI-Servo or AI-Focus and use a single focus point. If using burst, I usually encounter the odd OOF shot within a series. That even happens on my 1-series bodies with the Sigmas. I've also found that using the AF-On button as suggested by people above, is easier to do with the camera/lens combo's weight supported by a mono. OS is not going to be of any benefit to you in shooting a moving subject if you are already getting 1/1000th of a second as you mentioned. OS will only help you with slow shutter and camera shake. Also, the focus is improved greatly if you can fill the frame with your desired subject. The 5D Mark II was not designed as a sports weapon, but some sports it can handle quite well. I would have thought surfing would be one that it does okay. Only one person in the shot at a time.

Thanks Warbler,
I do use a monopod & as I mentioned I was using servo with centre point focus but not half pressing the shutter button & actuating constant focus & tracking before I fired. My bad operation technique.When I went back to one shot which is my normal use I got far better results. Ian(above) mentioned not to use os for moving subjects so one more bit of testing to do.Thanks for the input.

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I always thought that you should turn off the IS (which is actually OS on a Sigma) for moving shots with higher shutter speeds which I presume you will have doing surf shots.

Thanks Ian I had not heard this so I will have to do some more testing.
Thanks for the info

[Tannin]

Interesting thread. Three thoughts cross my mind.

1: Sigma's OS might not like the monopod. Early generation IS/VR lenses from Canon and Nikon hated tripods. Later models with second and subsequent generation IS/VR auto sense and adapt themselves to hand-held or tripod.

2: The general rule with moving subjects that don't move too fast is keep the IS on. (I've never done surfing, but I would certainly use IS if I did.)

3: The AF system on the 5D II is seriously primitive - the worst AF of any recently produced camera I know of. I only ever use mine for landscapes, and even for that it is poor. So you have to work with the damn thing and force it to do what you want! But you are a 5D II owner, you know this.

[Fruengalli]

Interesting thread. Three thoughts cross my mind.

1: Sigma's OS might not like the monopod. Early generation IS/VR lenses from Canon and Nikon hated tripods. Later models with second and subsequent generation IS/VR auto sense and adapt themselves to hand-held or tripod.

2: The general rule with moving subjects that don't move too fast is keep the IS on. (I've never done surfing, but I would certainly use IS if I did.)

3: The AF system on the 5D II is seriously primitive - the worst AF of any recently produced camera I know of. I only ever use mine for landscapes, and even for that it is poor. So you have to work with the damn thing and force it to do what you want! But you are a 5D II owner, you know this.

#1 Its only about 6 months old so I'm pretty sure its OK with the mono.#2 I'm pretty sure a lot of my grief is op error. Got a couple of sharper shots the other day. #3 I only use centre point focus (old habits die hard) & have to say, prior to this lens, for a primitive system it very rarely misses unless I screw up. I know its not an "L" but I reckon I can get some shots out of it.

[Epoc]

Here's a post of some surf pics I did a few months ago with the big Siggy. All were shot without OS. Shutter speeds were high enough to negate its need.

http://www.ausphotography.net.au/forum/showthread.php?116780-Surf-shots

[Tannin]

Cheers Fruengalli. I think you are spot on in your assessment that mostly you just need to keep working at your technique with the new lens. New gear always takes a while, and long lenses take a long while to become familiar with. Stick to your knitting!

As a matter of detail, I wasn't referring to the age of the lens so much as the sophistication of the IS system design. Sigma have not been doing IS for very long and may not have got around to the finer points of it. Alternatively, they may have looked at the existing products carefully and been able to design something similar from scratch without having to repeat prior mistakes. Do Sigma OS lenses auto-sense tripods? I'd guess that they do but I have no hard information either way. Is there a way we can find out? Is the Sigma OS system documented in detail anywhere?

As for focus, I was talking about the camera, not the lens. (More on this in a moment.) I was about to add "there is nothing wrong with the AF in a Sigma lens 'cause there isn't any AF in that (or any other) lens" when I was reminded to mention that it is an f/6.3 lens, and as such is theoretically unable to AF on any non-pro body. Note that I said theoretically! In practice (as you have seen for yourself) the camera can still AF at f/6.3, but we should remember that it is operating outside its design intention. It was designed to AF at f/5.6 or better, and aperture really does make a difference to SLR-style phase detection AF - not just a difference of degree but a difference of kind. So you can expect it to be a bit slow and vague by comparison to (e.g.) a 400/5.6. I have only used the big Sigmas casually (swap gear with a mate for ten minutes, that sort of thing) but that casual use and the good results of people using the big Siggies makes it pretty clear that they are perfectly capable and, used with care, can give great results.

Back to the camera. Centre-point focus seems to be the least-worst aspect of the 5D II's otherwise primitive focus system. And all technical matters aside, using centre-point only is (I think) often a good idea because it keeps things very simple and leaves you free to concentrate on getting other stuff right. I often find myself messing about selecting focus points on the 5D II and the 50D where I really should be just using the centre point intelligently and worring about important things. (Much less so on the pro bodies where you have a vastly better range of focus points and there is nearly always one in the spot you need it, so you just go there without any fuss or fiddling.) Don't get me wrong: I love my 5D II and it makes awesomely good pictures. I just wish it had a 1D III focus and exposure system. One day I'll get a 5D III instead. But the 5D II will do the job in the meantime.

[Fruengalli]

Thanks Ian..these are fantastic shots.There is hope for me yet but I hope I don't have to change to the dark side (couldn't afford it)

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Thanks Tony...I'll keep chippin away at it

[Roosta]

Just my 2 cents worth - I recently purchased the Canon 300 mm F4 L IS, I have found with shooting Rugby, the One Shot setting, but in custom settings, I use the continue with AF after first shot, and this seems to bring best results, even in high burst mode. I did try AI- Servo, but with a greater miss than hit rate, and with using the af on the points above center, as in the center focus spot aimed main body, but the AF focus points at head height/double point and get great results. This is on my 1D Mk 11n, and yes the focus is different, but I guess I'm saying, you need to find what works for you and your equipment.

Have you tried using say the left focal point keeping the focal point in front of the surfer, as see if that helps, and right for right handers, rather then center?

With what Tony "Tannin" mentions re monos and IS, the 300 mm has a panning and all ways IS mode, If you have it set to panning on the mono, at slower shutter speeds, it trys to over compensate for the movement, and I get blurry shots, If I go IS 2 it counters both vertical and horizontal movement, but at slower speeds it still try's to compensate too much on a pod, so I use it handheld if IS needed, and it works a treat.

[Fruengalli]

Just my 2 cents worth - I recently purchased the Canon 300 mm F4 L IS, I have found with shooting Rugby, the One Shot setting, but in custom settings, I use the continue with AF after first shot, and this seems to bring best results, even in high burst mode. I did try AI- Servo, but with a greater miss than hit rate, and with using the af on the points above center, as in the center focus spot aimed main body, but the AF focus points at head height/double point and get great results. This is on my 1D Mk 11n, and yes the focus is different, but I guess I'm saying, you need to find what works for you and your equipment.


Have you tried using say the left focal point keeping the focal point in front of the surfer, as see if that helps, and right for right handers, rather then center?

With what Tony "Tannin" mentions re monos and IS, the 300 mm has a panning and all ways IS mode, If you have it set to panning on the mono, at slower shutter speeds, it trys to over compensate for the movement, and I get blurry shots, If I go IS 2 it counters both vertical and horizontal movement, but at slower speeds it still try's to compensate too much on a pod, so I use it handheld if IS needed, and it works a treat.

Cheers Blue,
I use #2 setting cause it'll be me wobbling about at all angles as opposed to horizontal movement. The shots I'm taking are at 250-350m range so that is also making things awkward but also the pan speed is very slow. As Tony said the focus (apparently) on the 5DII is rubbish & the only cross point is the centre, the rest are vertical or horizontal so I'm gunna stick with that (one less variable in the equation). I think you're right about servo...just doesn't seem to cut it particularly subjects coming at you & also as Tony said about "f" ratings re autofocus. I'll look into continue AF after first shot...don't know if it's on my 5 or not but more science is about to happen people!!! The other thing is given the focus distance & aperture I should get something like 150m depth of field & so if I do MY job properly focus should be reasonable.

[Roosta]

Looking at the 5D Mk11 AF on the USA Canon website, I didn't realise it was the same as my 50D. With what I mentioned above, if I'm using my 50D for faster sports, I shoot in portrait, and that way I can utilise the focal point one to the left or right (Which would be top or bottom in landscape stance), and not two away if in landscape, as in the furthest focal point. With panning and maybe slightly unsteady hands, I'd forgo the OS/IS and up the ISO - use a faster shutter speed than the focal length, say 1/800 + minimum and maybe even + the EV.

There doesn't seem to be a One shot and AF continues after first shot setting on the 5D, unlike the much older 1D I have, which has a 45 point focal plane against the 9 in the 5D.

Do you have a couple of pics you can put up and leave the EXIF attached? If not, what setting are you using to get the surf shots? You mentioned ISO 800, was it a particularly poor light day? I'm still leaning toward the OS is holding you back the most.

If you go here (http://usa.canon.com/cusa/support/consumer/eos_slr_camera_systems/eos_digital_slr_cameras/eos_5d_mark_ii#BrochuresAndManuals) and open the PDF 5D instruction manual, and go to page 83, it talks of the AF sensitivity of lens with an AP greater F5.6 and how it will affect the focus.

[Warbler]

There doesn't seem to be a One shot and AF continues after first shot setting on the 5D, unlike the much older 1D I have

Roosta, look up AI-Focus, as distinct from AI-Servo. The 5DMkII has both those modes. It's in the menu on the older 1 Series. It's a separate setting on the 5D Mk II and Mk III.

You may also be surprised to find it also on your 50D. ;)

[Roosta]

Roosta, look up AI-Focus, as distinct from AI-Servo. The 5DMkII has both those modes. It's in the menu on the older 1 Series. It's a separate setting on the 5D Mk II and Mk III.

You may also be surprised to find it also on your 50D. ;)

Looked at that Warbler, but it does mention a stationary object that has to start moving for AI - Focus to jump to AI - Servo. I did know mate, it's on the 50D, never used it though, I use my focal setup as mentioned above, with good success. Never held a 5D, nor looked into them this much. I know most that shot with them though, seem to use them as a landscape/portrait body, rather than a sport body. I wonder if, to hold a good focus lock first on AI - Focus (Stationary object) it won't react quick enough for a moving object, especially a surfer. Again on the 1D, I can set the focus speed on the body to suit the situation, it has several speeds to choose from, luckily for me, maybe the focus sensitivity is just not quick enough on the 5D MK 11, fullstop.

There's a good read on the top of page 80 re tracking with a manual selected point, re my point, and in AI - Servo.

Sounds like some fun with experimentation for the OP. All ends up.

Cheers Warbler.

[Fruengalli]

Thought I'd come up with a brilliant solution....suggested to my dearest that the guys on the forum said I needed to buy a Canon 1Mk46 with a 600 f1.8 lens. Apparently the Big Siggy will be located such that it will never see day light again (camera body still attached) & a fair amount of other comment which can't be published on a public forum. I'll try & post some pics later Blue but in the mean time I've got plenty of info to work with just need some swell now.

[Warbler]

Your 5DMk II would not perform any worse than any xxD does for sports work. Sure, it won't match a 1D, but that shouldn't cause problems if you use it right. I just wouldn't expect every shot to be a keeper with the Sigma, or any other lens for that matter. I don't know any sports photographers who have a 100% keeper rate. All you can do if you keep the same gear is hone your skills and timing.

[Mark L]

... Apparently the Big Siggy will be located such that it will never see day light again (camera body still attached) ...

PM me when this happens. Alternative transactions and arrangements should be made!! :D

[Fruengalli]

PM me when this happens. Alternative transactions and arrangements should be made!! :D
for sale one slightly soiled 5dii fitted with BIG siggy....any offers accepted.....anything at all